If you're going to read this, please read all of it and actually listen to what I'm saying before jumping on me. Also, a Disclaimer:
*I do not know any of the people involved personally or otherwise. This is not really my business, and I am not privy to any of the private, behind the scenes crap / drama / excuses that may be out there. I have, however, done a good bit of online trading in my time as a Magic player, and this needs to be said.*
I am aware that JayC is reportedly a very reputable trade moderator and has feedback and friends on this site up the wazoo. When I originally heard about this site some time ago, I came here thinking of trading but was turned off by the saga involving another apparently reputable guy called Lance.
Now, I have seen that the moderators usually act with laudable speed on accusations of ripping and the like. (It's really sad how many people do that, in my opinion.) However, in this recent case, there have been three open instances of traders accusing JayC of cheating them and the public image given off is of mods dragging their digital feet.
EDIT: To provide a specific time frame, this issue has now been going on, per the accuser, for two months with no conclusive resolution.
As I said, I have never traded here, and I don't know what might have been said through PM, and I am not publicly calling anyone in particular out. Nevertheless, there is a public image of sorts for the site to maintain, and when a mod gives an accused (in this case JayC) a certain amount of time to reply, and no action is taken, and messages of 'wait, wait, wait' seem to be all that is given, it gives off a bad image to observers like me and turns me off to trading here even further.
JayC has, in fact, with the exception of one two-line post tonight, not posted here in over two weeks. Does this mean he doesn't care about the situation? I don't know; as I said, I don't want to accuse. However, his most recent post doesn't give the impression of being overly concerned about the fact that the package he sent out was missing cards.
During that time, it appears to outside observers (such as myself and others in my trading group) that those accusing are being stonewalled by those in authority, and that favoritism is being practiced to unfair levels. Answers to reasonable questions (some asked multiple times) are not being given; pleas for results seem ignored, and threads are being closed and moved to 'resolved conflicts' on third hand knowledge of the package's arrival without the accuser verifying the contents - in fact, the accuser then posted to say that the package was NOT complete.
I thought this was very serious and worthy of serious consideration when it first occurred, being, as I said, a long-time internet trading vet elsewhere and recently considering again the possibility of trading here. I do not get the impression it is taken very seriously by some; updates on the situation for those non-involved but understandably concerned are not exactly regular, at least in the public domain of the threads created by the accusers.
My main point is the issue of transparency. I understand there are most likely private life issues involved; they tend to be in these situations. As I said, I am not accusing anyone; this could be (and hopefully is) a case of postal incompetence or personal issues. Nevertheless, the treatment of the situation does not breed in me trust of the system in place - it breeds doubt and concern and ideas of conspiracy theories. To see if I was simply taking things in the wrong context, I had several other trading friends I know read the involved threads and ask for their input without any previous knowledge of my opinion. To a man, they all agreed with my take on the situation.
Therefore, I again choose not to trade here, and unfortunately I will probably advise others I know to do the same.
I will be happy to discuss this with anyone else in a mature fashion - in other words, I'm not interested in being flamed from all sides by anyone who feels slighted by this post.
Thank you for reading. I hope this will produce at least some positive result.
The downtime contributed a LOT to the recent issues with these cases.
All I can say is that nobody's being stonewalled. We're trying to sort out just what part of the problems truly are caused by JayC's incompetently run (contracted) post office and what, if any, part are his fault.
The thread was closed because I saw that the delivery confirmation number indicated the package was delivered. Now that I know it's incomplete, I'll be reopening the old thread and merging it with the new one.
The situation is being handled. I ask for a little more patience, though.
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Hey all... I'm retired, not dead. Check out what I'm doing these days (and beg me to come back if you want):
As being the main party involved with the entire Lance debacle, and also an active trader here, I guess my two cents are welcome.
Lance ripped a guy off of many valuable cards.
JayC has had personal issues that caused him to stop moderating, and cease all trading practices. Not to mention, his post office is really poorly-run for some reason.
That said, we aren't making excuses or making special cases. The trading forum has no members that are more equal than others, and I would like to keep it that way. This situation should be resolved soon.
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Heres the thing that a lot dont understand about online trading. Labeling someone a ripper doesnt do anything for the ripped. IF a trader accused of ripping is continuing to cooperate with the mods and the other party then labeling them as a ripper accomplishes nothing at all. Filing mail fraud is a joke and epty threat to put it lightly. The point of all this remains the same the moderators are doing EVERYTHING in there power to get the buyers in this case there cards and lets be honest thats all that really matters.
I read your whole post and to someone who does not actively trade here it may seem as though this is taking too long, but it really isn't. As someone who has invested quite a lot in trading on this board I can assure you of such. The BTA section of Market Street is there not to stamp RIPPER on people's forheads and ban them, but rather to try to resolve issue when trades and sales hit snags.
You mentioned that for the mojority of cases a mod steps in, denounces the ripper and calls for thier banning in short order. This is true becuase in most cases that is all that can be done. The person in question IS a ripper and no amount of negotiations and work can being about a resolution. The best thing to do is ban them and move on.
In cases like this one, and many others like it, you have a good trader who fell on some personal issues that caused a slip up. There never was an intent to rip someone off, only a change in one's situation that had some colateral damage that happened to fall here. In these cases it would be a great disservice to the affected parties to just ban the offender and move on. While some of these cased take longer than others, a positive resolution is almost always reached.
The only final issue here is that JayC's post office is not run by the USPS but rather an outside contractor who is not linked to the USPS web system. This means that whenever he send with DC, and I can pretty easily way that is always, the DC# only shows up in the system when the postal worker scans the package on final delivery and puts it in your mailbox. I know it makes for some uneasy time while the package is enroute, but the fault here is not with JayC, since he is doing all that he can, but with the "post office" for offering services they cannot uphold.
In the end I think the trade moderators here are doing a great job of resolving issues as they come up. When a true ripper pops up they quickly ban that person to get them out of our great community. Likewise, with good judgement, when an otherwise great trader has a slipup, they give that person the time and effort that it takes to make the situation right again. I would personally hate to see the day that it changes to anything different.
(Sorry for the long post but I feel a vested interest in the subject.)
Okay here is the deal. I've been sort of on the back burner for a few weeks with a pretty serious illness and mounting work loads from grad school, but I do find time to follow and intervene when necessary.
Here's the deal. I am tired of hearing a few members scream that we give people special privilages and that if this was a "normal" member, we'd ban them in a week. JayC is not being treated any differently than anyone else who keeps open the lines of communication. Adrian is an example. For those who remember, Adrian was a trader who for 4 months we waited and talked and listened and did everything in our power to get cards for a member. If JayC failed to respond to IM's, PM's, E-mails or whatever other method that we know of to contact him, he'd be banned. However, he does respond to these methods and we are assured of this by him personally.
This isn't favoritism, it's our efforts to recover cards that could potentially be lost. Never, as least as long as I am a moderator, will be ever just ban a person who is openly making an effort to make things straight with their customers/trading partners.
Also, never will I add a name to the BTL for people making an effort, unless it becomes a chronic problem.
These lists, and the "brand" of Ripper should not be handled lightly. People deserve a fair shake and a right to defend themselves. BTL and Ripper alike, not for people who **** up in a week and forget to send.
Also, I am tired of the old "mods" speaking their mind in our BTL Threads. If you got something to say, POST IT HERE or on one of our desks - All you do in our area is feed the animosity within a thread. Just remember that you are not a mod any longer for whatever reason and unless your post is of specific and significant value to the case, you will be infracted - just like any other user.
Also, for all the people involved in a case - Remember that we are doing our best for you. However, this does not mean that Jabs, Rax and I sit diligently on the thread, consistantly refreshing the page - hoping for a response. We take the described steps, and sometimes - if we let the time pass and we don't respond right away, it's not because we are lazy, but because we either have more information from another source or we are frantically trying to keep 5 sections together and running smoothly.
Overall, we do what we do for nothing more than the satisfaction of seeing the magic community grow. I hope you realize that we are not paid nor compensated for what we do. We are here to moderate veteran traders and guide new ones.
If you don't like our practices, I apologize - especially since this is blunt - but Don't trade here. In fact, telling us you won't trade here is sort of childish. Do you hope that we will beg you to join our trading community? And if we don't, are you going to wage an all out campaign against people trading here? Warning them of danger? What danger? You people focus far too much on one or two specific instances and never, and I mean NEVER look at the overall picture. In the passed 6 months, we have had 3000+ Transactions go through I-trader alone.Which means there could have been up to 500 more that remained ref-less. Of those 3000+ transactions, less than 3% have made the BTL forum. I think we are doing okay for a community and trading system that when you break it down - relies on trust.
Also, I am tired of the old "mods" speaking their mind in our BTL Threads. If you got something to say, POST IT HERE or on one of our desks - All you do in our area is feed the animosity within a thread. Just remember that you are not a mod any longer for whatever reason and unless your post is of specific and significant value to the case, you will be infracted - just like any other user.
Why don't you Just say my name as I seam to be the only one in this group CASE. Don't worry you won't hear anymore from me.......... Hell I'm done posting...
Okay here is the deal. I've been sort of on the back burner for a few weeks with a pretty serious illness and mounting work loads from grad school, but I do find time to follow and intervene when necessary.
Here's the deal. I am tired of hearing a few members scream that we give people special privilages and that if this was a "normal" member, we'd ban them in a week. JayC is not being treated any differently than anyone else who keeps open the lines of communication. Adrian is an example. For those who remember, Adrian was a trader who for 4 months we waited and talked and listened and did everything in our power to get cards for a member. If JayC failed to respond to IM's, PM's, E-mails or whatever other method that we know of to contact him, he'd be banned. However, he does respond to these methods and we are assured of this by him personally.
This isn't favoritism, it's our efforts to recover cards that could potentially be lost. Never, as least as long as I am a moderator, will be ever just ban a person who is openly making an effort to make things straight with their customers/trading partners.
Also, never will I add a name to the BTL for people making an effort, unless it becomes a chronic problem.
These lists, and the "brand" of Ripper should not be handled lightly. People deserve a fair shake and a right to defend themselves. BTL and Ripper alike, not for people who **** up in a week and forget to send.
Also, I am tired of the old "mods" speaking their mind in our BTL Threads. If you got something to say, POST IT HERE or on one of our desks - All you do in our area is feed the animosity within a thread. Just remember that you are not a mod any longer for whatever reason and unless your post is of specific and significant value to the case, you will be infracted - just like any other user.
Also, for all the people involved in a case - Remember that we are doing our best for you. However, this does not mean that Jabs, Rax and I sit diligently on the thread, consistantly refreshing the page - hoping for a response. We take the described steps, and sometimes - if we let the time pass and we don't respond right away, it's not because we are lazy, but because we either have more information from another source or we are frantically trying to keep 5 sections together and running smoothly.
Overall, we do what we do for nothing more than the satisfaction of seeing the magic community grow. I hope you realize that we are not paid nor compensated for what we do. We are here to moderate veteran traders and guide new ones.
If you don't like our practices, I apologize - especially since this is blunt - but Don't trade here. In fact, telling us you won't trade here is sort of childish. Do you hope that we will beg you to join our trading community? And if we don't, are you going to wage an all out campaign against people trading here? Warning them of danger? What danger? You people focus far too much on one or two specific instances and never, and I mean NEVER look at the overall picture. In the passed 6 months, we have had 3000+ Transactions go through I-trader alone.Which means there could have been up to 500 more that remained ref-less. Of those 3000+ transactions, less than 3% have made the BTL forum. I think we are doing okay for a community and trading system that when you break it down - relies on trust.
Caselogik, The Trading Moderator.
I'm going to stop being polite in your case and give you some frankness-
Climb off your pedestal, clear your head, and drop the 'I am Mod, I am God' attitude. I'm honestly laughing at the fact that you're calling me childish - I'm not the one who seems to be getting pissy over some perceived slight to my precious 'internet authority' here. Also, I'm not going to organize some kind of boycott - not sure where you pulled that nugget from. Either way, you're damned overreacting.
Nevertheless, I have my personal opinion, which is reflected by others I know. I don't much care for your attempt to browbeat me, either. As I said in my original post, honestly, yours is the kind of reply I'm not interested in reading.
That being said, I'm sure you do your best. As I put in my original post, the issue is transparency. Statistics overall be damned, frankly. One bad apple tends to sour the cider.
I appreciate everyone else who responded to this thread so far. Please continue to discuss.
OK well since i appear to be a voice of reawson and case logik just went out of control(this is complete sarcasm i have no idea what anarki is talking about).
While even the adrian case some could call favoritism the same was done for both korlash and jeremy(cant remember his nick it was around the same time)
I agree 100% with everything case has just said in regards to the BTL forum and as a trading member for going on a year now i can say that the trade mod staff has almost always proven to be a good group of people.
I'm going to stop being polite in your case and give you some frankness-
Climb off your pedestal, clear your head, and drop the 'I am Mod, I am God' attitude. I'm honestly laughing at the fact that you're calling me childish - I'm not the one who seems to be getting pissy over some perceived slight to my precious 'internet authority' here. Also, I'm not going to organize some kind of boycott - not sure where you pulled that nugget from. Either way, you're damned overreacting.
Nevertheless, I have my personal opinion, which is reflected by others I know. I don't much care for your attempt to browbeat me, either. As I said in my original post, honestly, yours is the kind of reply I'm not interested in reading.
That being said, I'm sure you do your best. As I put in my original post, the issue is transparency. Statistics overall be damned, frankly. One bad apple tends to sour the cider.
I appreciate everyone else who responded to this thread so far. Please continue to discuss.
I don't think I came off with a God Complex there. If so, that's not what was intended. I got "pissy" because I am tired of people like you discredting every piece of work that we have. If you don't like how we do things, go to pojo or something. That's what I am saying. I don't actually care whether or not you are interested in my post - by this point - you have already read it. And you are also right, one bad apple spoils the cider. But you must be the type of person who was/is home schooled or you take on-line courses because in life there is always the one bad apple. You learn to deal.
We, as mods (AKA Gods apparently) work really hard to protect our community. When post like this come up, it's frustrating and hard to deal with. Only a few of you know how much work being a mod is. This is not just us, but all the rest of the mods/admin's and owners of this site spend countless hours making sure that you, our community get a good magic experience. If you want to spoil that experience -leave.
Mike/Sapphire - That's fine. I appreciate that you are going to stop posting in our BTL. I hope that wasn't for the whole site - but if so, Peace - I wish you well.
Gotta chime in on this one, as the trading mods knew I would:
I have had nothing but problems with JayC's attitude both as a mod and as a former mod since day 1. This stems from personal experience as he botched TWO deals with me, one being a sale. He never seemed to take the deals seriously, and there was a distinct apathy in his tones. Much like what we're reading in the bad trader sub-forum - sounds like he doesn't really care and is doing just enough to not get into any "serious" trouble, and the mods are abiding this.
Now it is well known his posts office sucks (I encountered this first hand a year ago), but it begs this question - why the hell does he still use it? If I were a responsible individual (especially one facing ripper allegations) I would maybe go an extra mile or two and get a legit post office or fedex/kinkos or mailboxes etc, or anyone to ship these out. Instead he uses the same old crappy PO and blames their incompetency on extended wait times that could wholly have been avoided. I am not familiar with the area of Cali he lives in, perhaps this is his only option - but even then shouldn't a trading mod be a shining example of how-it-should-be-done? certainly not in his case...
Honestly, trade-banning him would prove/solve nothing, as he claims to be done trading. Does he belong on the BTL? absolutely. 3 bad trades in a row, one for large cash sales. He eventually came through on it, but ONLY after incessant pestering by the other party (and we're supposed to buy that this is an acceptable trading practice?). You have to ask yourself, even if that was a totally isolated incident, if you encountered one such as this, would you ever want to trade again or trust people here? You saw his high ref count and mod title and thought, "why not?"; well how about because I tried to warn you all months ago, on another thread in this very forum buried by posters thinking I was out solely to flame him and ignored the underlying issue that has come back to bite some regular members where it hurts...but I digress.
He should be added to the BTL with a disclaimer that his PO sucks and there were past offenses - which were compensated but only after a long and arduous process that no member should have to endure. Essentially a "trade at your own risk". Adrian's was remarkably similar in it's handling. They both treated the ripper allegations as no big deal - the only difference is JCs personality, in that Adrian doesn't need this site to prosper as he does very well for himself without us; whereas JC has well [self-]published homelife issues. Take it from me, as a solid trader once accused for ripping - you take it very seriously if you care. I did, took responsibility and rectified it within a few days - they chose to drag it out, some have been waiting over a month. Communication or not, how is that justified?
Ok, fine he kept in contact and eventually sent out the stuff from his crappy PO. does that make everything better? hardly. and the mod's attitudes are not mending this broken limb of the trade forum. The message this effectively sends is that you won't ever be labeled a "bad trader" or "ripper" as long as you post occasionally in the accusation thread about having personal issues (real or imagined), and eventually mail out some or all of your end - with little or no repercussions. Ex-mod or not, that behavior should not be tolerated.
I for one understand that things happen outside this little internet forum about magic cards, but it's not that difficult a thing to do - mail some cards you promised some guys you'd send them. It speaks to the depth of your character if you cannot even accomplish this, no matter how depressing your current life-situation is. And the mods cannot objectively deal with this. I do not see it as a case of crony-ism, but more like a general lapse of commonsense when dealing with these types of cases. Consistency will never cause reason to doubt, but exceptions are always glaring.
I'll now hand the soapbox back to Anarki, and wait for inevitable flames that will come my way.
Next time you post popular opinions, please word them in such a way that they're not infractable. Someone may be widely thought to be the dullest tool in the shed, but you can't publicly call him that, which as a mod I can neither confirm nor deny that I fervently believe he's a tool.
What I don't think you guys get is that we could dole out punishment immediately. We could give anyone accused 96 hours to reply and fix the problem, and if this was not accomplished, we could ban them. Or we could consistantly threaten them with bannings or whatever. However, this does not solve the problem for the person who is missing their cards.
BTL Issues are touchy - Adrian's case was held in the way that it was, because we were afraid of what eventually happened. We pushed too hard- and a whole lot of **** you's were given out as a response and Burk go ripped. Do we think JayC is going to rip anyone? No. Do we think that this is beyond ridiculous? Yes. However, JayC - unlike the other bannings of late- has made an attempt to keep communication going. When this is all resolved, do not think that we won't take some action, because something will occur. However, We aren't banning anyone who makes their end straight.
Hopefully this sheds some light on why some cases are handled the way that they are.
What I think Case is trying to say is that the difference between most cases and JayC is the intent of the user. Korlash and State of Oblivion intended to rip, where as JayC is not intending to rip but he has had some personal issues it seems pop up and that his post office sucks. Maybe he should use Fedex or UPS, but perhaps they are not very close to him or the prices are a bit ridiculous.This isn't an excuse, but it should be noted, people I think just need to let the mods do their work and be patient, which doesn't seem to happen often.
JayC has had personal issues that caused him to stop moderating, and cease all trading practices. Not to mention, his post office is really poorly-run for some reason.
That said, we aren't making excuses or making special cases.
Really? It seems like that's exactly what you are doing.
In all seriousness though, JayC is an awesome guy, but this whole situation is ridiculuous. I agree with what the mods have said, that dropping the hammer on JayC won't do a thing as we all just want this to be resolved, but I think that wether or not JayC decides to ever trade on this site again, he should be reprimanded for his actions.
I understand he has had some "personal problems", but even so, it only really takes 10 or so minutes out of your day to drive to your post office, mail the cards, and be done with it. JayC's apathetic attitude has made it so that there is now a problem with this case, and he is totally in the wrong, as even if he was depressed, he could drive for ten minutes to drop a box off at his awful post office.
I think that wether or not JayC decides to ever trade on this site again, he should be reprimanded for his actions.
What do you suggest?
He isn't trading here anymore, posting here anymore, or anything.
If you think he is going to 'get away' with bad trader practices, he clearly is not. The matter hasn't resolved yet. Actions are never taken while cards are still up in the air and the situation is not clearly that of a ripper that is not going to make things right.
We aren't making excuses. We are trying to get these cards and payments where they belong.
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I've talked to CaseLogik and let him know if you guys would like me banned, I understand.
Personal issues caused me to really check out for a long while, but no excuses, if you want blood feel free to make the ban official once everyone has their product. It's understandable.
Enough with the long drawn out posts and whining though, the mod's didn't do anything wrong.
JayC
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This member has been found guilty of ripping a number of users on MTGSalvation. As a result he has been banned on this site and all his positive feedback has been removed. The MTGSalvation Staff wants to strongly encourage you NOT to trade with this member ever again in whatever situation might come up.
Spread the word.
I've talked to CaseLogik and let him know if you guys would like me banned, I understand.
Personal issues caused me to really check out for a long while, but no excuses, if you want blood feel free to make the ban official once everyone has their product. It's understandable.
Enough with the long drawn out posts and whining though, the mod's didn't do anything wrong.
JayC
Why waste the time to make the post and thus talk out of your ass if you're not even going to bother reading the original post I made and respond to the points? You have no right to call them invalid if you are not going to do so.
At no point in my original post did I call for your blood, a fact you would know had you read it. I have no particular interest in your being banned.
Yeah the mods didn't necessarily do anything wrong, YOU did. I'll reserve the rest of my judgment until after everyone gets their cards finally from you, then see what the mods have planned - if anything.
Next time you post popular opinions, please word them in such a way that they're not infractable. Someone may be widely thought to be the dullest tool in the shed, but you can't publicly call him that, which as a mod I can neither confirm nor deny that I fervently believe he's a tool.
I know this has nothing to do with JayC but I feel sorry for SapphireTri. I hope she really isn't quitting. Losing her will be like losing one of the great personalities on television. I love to read her upfront, ambitious, and uncaring-about-other's-feelings posts. She is one of the most readable posters.
Probably I feel bad for her because my posts are largely comparable to her's except for even less logical and more indifferently offensive (though I do think I make good points, even if not always conventional). Anyways, I think we need people like SapphireTri. Normal posters are so boring. They always have dogmatic views and talk about the same things. There are only several personalities on Salvation that really stand out and she is one of them.
Anyways, I would just like to point out it is very cruel of moderators to make their own personal comments on bad trader threads and then infracture non-moderators for expressing their opinions. Moderators act like they're helping the situation but their posts are often as spammy as that of normal poster's. There is usually only one moderator who is giving an objective stance and solving the case. 3 different mods should not all have the right to post in the same bad trading thread, especially if they're just making a casual response. This is the reason why casual members are barred.
So in conclusion, I say that only important mods should continue commenting in bad trader threads. This will maintain the overall intention of the forum rules and the functioning of the thread.
What do you suggest?
He isn't trading here anymore, posting here anymore, or anything.
If you think he is going to 'get away' with bad trader practices, he clearly is not. The matter hasn't resolved yet. Actions are never taken while cards are still up in the air and the situation is not clearly that of a ripper that is not going to make things right.
We aren't making excuses. We are trying to get these cards and payments where they belong.
I agree with you here, and I think that you have a good point that banning JayC now would not do anything, and I think you guys are doing a fine job of making sure that people end up getting their cards.
As mush as I hate to say it, I do think that JayC should be banned from trading, or at least suspended until he either deals with his personal problems, or finds a better way to send things from his post office.
I agree with you here, and I think that you have a good point that banning JayC now would not do anything, and I think you guys are doing a fine job of making sure that people end up getting their cards.
As mush as I hate to say it, I do think that JayC should be banned from trading, or at least suspended until he either deals with his personal problems, or finds a better way to send things from his post office.
Seconded, I do concur.
His posts offer nothing of substance, while in his current state. If he can pull himself up out of it and stop feeling sorry for himself - I'll be the first to say 'welcome back'. if not, well so long. Might seem harsh, but given the fact he's subjected 3 members to a month-long run around due only to his own personal negligence (in THE very forum he used to run, no less) it is perfectly within reason. Besides with his current attitude, it's not like he'll really care one way or the other.
Next time you post popular opinions, please word them in such a way that they're not infractable. Someone may be widely thought to be the dullest tool in the shed, but you can't publicly call him that, which as a mod I can neither confirm nor deny that I fervently believe he's a tool.
I know this has nothing to do with JayC but I feel sorry for SapphireTri. I hope she really isn't quitting. Losing her will be like losing one of the great personalities on television. I love to read her upfront, ambitious, and uncaring-about-other's-feelings posts. She is one of the most readable posters.
Probably I feel bad for her because my posts are largely comparable to her's except for even less logical and more indifferently offensive (though I do think I make good points, even if not always conventional). Anyways, I think we need people like SapphireTri. Normal posters are so boring. They always have dogmatic views and talk about the same things. There are only several personalities on Salvation that really stand out and she is one of them.
I feel bad as well... I always enjoyed reading the posts that SappT made, although I never really got involved in many of the discussions.
Anyways, I would just like to point out it is very cruel of moderators to make their own personal comments on bad trader threads and then infracture non-moderators for expressing their opinions. Moderators act like they're helping the situation but their posts are often as spammy as that of normal poster's. There is usually only one moderator who is giving an objective stance and solving the case. 3 different mods should not all have the right to post in the same bad trading thread, especially if they're just making a casual response. This is the reason why casual members are barred.
So in conclusion, I say that only important mods should continue commenting in bad trader threads. This will maintain the overall intention of the forum rules and the functioning of the thread.
I'll agree with this as well. The moderators (Some WAY more than others) act very immature and worse than most users; and their posts are, in fact, filled with spam some of the time. They are no better than the average user.
Sapphiretri's name is Mike is it not? Therefore, isn't "She" a "he"?
Also, Sapphire infracted many of us for posting and doing what he has been doing in our threads. He knows the rules, and they apply to him just like everyone else.
JayC will be dealt with appropriately. Although I don't think a permanent Ban is in order, his punishment will fit the offense - he knows this, the administration knows this and as much as I appreciate (as well as the other trading mods) all of your input - we will deal with it.
As with all things in life, this has becomes larger than the sum of its parts.
With regards to the mods, I have two points I would like to state.
The first being that I and probably others would appreciate being treated with a little more patience. I realize it is difficult to be patient with people who are not so with you. It does however lower your standings to the community when a moderator loses their cool. It is just a request on my part.
The second being I appreciate your efforts in resolviong this issue with JayC. The trader will be glad to know you are working to get him the cards he traded for. I am glad a group of individuals are able to be called upon with the authority that we have given them to help in conflicts. Let us not forget they are moderators because we all come to this site. If we stopped writing/trading here, then mtgsalvation would have fewer moderators, less discussion, or could even be closed down.
In conclusion, this is my first and only post on this issue. I am not interested in publicly discussing further. I hope that people will learn from the example I have set and everyone, public included, keeps their head during the more heated issues.
It seems sort of silly to ridicule a company for marketing efforts. Of course they are going to hype upcoming products, every company on the face of the planet does it, and it works, thats why they do it. There isn't really any sense complaining about it. If you don't like the marketing, ignore it.
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*I do not know any of the people involved personally or otherwise. This is not really my business, and I am not privy to any of the private, behind the scenes crap / drama / excuses that may be out there. I have, however, done a good bit of online trading in my time as a Magic player, and this needs to be said.*
I am aware that JayC is reportedly a very reputable trade moderator and has feedback and friends on this site up the wazoo. When I originally heard about this site some time ago, I came here thinking of trading but was turned off by the saga involving another apparently reputable guy called Lance.
Now, I have seen that the moderators usually act with laudable speed on accusations of ripping and the like. (It's really sad how many people do that, in my opinion.) However, in this recent case, there have been three open instances of traders accusing JayC of cheating them and the public image given off is of mods dragging their digital feet.
EDIT: To provide a specific time frame, this issue has now been going on, per the accuser, for two months with no conclusive resolution.
As I said, I have never traded here, and I don't know what might have been said through PM, and I am not publicly calling anyone in particular out. Nevertheless, there is a public image of sorts for the site to maintain, and when a mod gives an accused (in this case JayC) a certain amount of time to reply, and no action is taken, and messages of 'wait, wait, wait' seem to be all that is given, it gives off a bad image to observers like me and turns me off to trading here even further.
JayC has, in fact, with the exception of one two-line post tonight, not posted here in over two weeks. Does this mean he doesn't care about the situation? I don't know; as I said, I don't want to accuse. However, his most recent post doesn't give the impression of being overly concerned about the fact that the package he sent out was missing cards.
During that time, it appears to outside observers (such as myself and others in my trading group) that those accusing are being stonewalled by those in authority, and that favoritism is being practiced to unfair levels. Answers to reasonable questions (some asked multiple times) are not being given; pleas for results seem ignored, and threads are being closed and moved to 'resolved conflicts' on third hand knowledge of the package's arrival without the accuser verifying the contents - in fact, the accuser then posted to say that the package was NOT complete.
I thought this was very serious and worthy of serious consideration when it first occurred, being, as I said, a long-time internet trading vet elsewhere and recently considering again the possibility of trading here. I do not get the impression it is taken very seriously by some; updates on the situation for those non-involved but understandably concerned are not exactly regular, at least in the public domain of the threads created by the accusers.
My main point is the issue of transparency. I understand there are most likely private life issues involved; they tend to be in these situations. As I said, I am not accusing anyone; this could be (and hopefully is) a case of postal incompetence or personal issues. Nevertheless, the treatment of the situation does not breed in me trust of the system in place - it breeds doubt and concern and ideas of conspiracy theories. To see if I was simply taking things in the wrong context, I had several other trading friends I know read the involved threads and ask for their input without any previous knowledge of my opinion. To a man, they all agreed with my take on the situation.
Therefore, I again choose not to trade here, and unfortunately I will probably advise others I know to do the same.
I will be happy to discuss this with anyone else in a mature fashion - in other words, I'm not interested in being flamed from all sides by anyone who feels slighted by this post.
Thank you for reading. I hope this will produce at least some positive result.
All I can say is that nobody's being stonewalled. We're trying to sort out just what part of the problems truly are caused by JayC's incompetently run (contracted) post office and what, if any, part are his fault.
The thread was closed because I saw that the delivery confirmation number indicated the package was delivered. Now that I know it's incomplete, I'll be reopening the old thread and merging it with the new one.
The situation is being handled. I ask for a little more patience, though.
https://twitch.tv/annorax10 (classic retro speedruns & occasional MTGO/MTGA screwaround streams)
https://twitch.tv/SwiftorCasino (yes, my team and I run live dealer games for the baldman using his channel points as chips)
Lance ripped a guy off of many valuable cards.
JayC has had personal issues that caused him to stop moderating, and cease all trading practices. Not to mention, his post office is really poorly-run for some reason.
That said, we aren't making excuses or making special cases. The trading forum has no members that are more equal than others, and I would like to keep it that way. This situation should be resolved soon.
Twitter
Yes i am the same guy who trades/sells on MOTL AND Wizards of the Coast and i trade on POJO.
You mentioned that for the mojority of cases a mod steps in, denounces the ripper and calls for thier banning in short order. This is true becuase in most cases that is all that can be done. The person in question IS a ripper and no amount of negotiations and work can being about a resolution. The best thing to do is ban them and move on.
In cases like this one, and many others like it, you have a good trader who fell on some personal issues that caused a slip up. There never was an intent to rip someone off, only a change in one's situation that had some colateral damage that happened to fall here. In these cases it would be a great disservice to the affected parties to just ban the offender and move on. While some of these cased take longer than others, a positive resolution is almost always reached.
The only final issue here is that JayC's post office is not run by the USPS but rather an outside contractor who is not linked to the USPS web system. This means that whenever he send with DC, and I can pretty easily way that is always, the DC# only shows up in the system when the postal worker scans the package on final delivery and puts it in your mailbox. I know it makes for some uneasy time while the package is enroute, but the fault here is not with JayC, since he is doing all that he can, but with the "post office" for offering services they cannot uphold.
In the end I think the trade moderators here are doing a great job of resolving issues as they come up. When a true ripper pops up they quickly ban that person to get them out of our great community. Likewise, with good judgement, when an otherwise great trader has a slipup, they give that person the time and effort that it takes to make the situation right again. I would personally hate to see the day that it changes to anything different.
(Sorry for the long post but I feel a vested interest in the subject.)
Here's the deal. I am tired of hearing a few members scream that we give people special privilages and that if this was a "normal" member, we'd ban them in a week. JayC is not being treated any differently than anyone else who keeps open the lines of communication. Adrian is an example. For those who remember, Adrian was a trader who for 4 months we waited and talked and listened and did everything in our power to get cards for a member. If JayC failed to respond to IM's, PM's, E-mails or whatever other method that we know of to contact him, he'd be banned. However, he does respond to these methods and we are assured of this by him personally.
This isn't favoritism, it's our efforts to recover cards that could potentially be lost. Never, as least as long as I am a moderator, will be ever just ban a person who is openly making an effort to make things straight with their customers/trading partners.
Also, never will I add a name to the BTL for people making an effort, unless it becomes a chronic problem.
These lists, and the "brand" of Ripper should not be handled lightly. People deserve a fair shake and a right to defend themselves. BTL and Ripper alike, not for people who **** up in a week and forget to send.
Also, I am tired of the old "mods" speaking their mind in our BTL Threads. If you got something to say, POST IT HERE or on one of our desks - All you do in our area is feed the animosity within a thread. Just remember that you are not a mod any longer for whatever reason and unless your post is of specific and significant value to the case, you will be infracted - just like any other user.
Also, for all the people involved in a case - Remember that we are doing our best for you. However, this does not mean that Jabs, Rax and I sit diligently on the thread, consistantly refreshing the page - hoping for a response. We take the described steps, and sometimes - if we let the time pass and we don't respond right away, it's not because we are lazy, but because we either have more information from another source or we are frantically trying to keep 5 sections together and running smoothly.
Overall, we do what we do for nothing more than the satisfaction of seeing the magic community grow. I hope you realize that we are not paid nor compensated for what we do. We are here to moderate veteran traders and guide new ones.
If you don't like our practices, I apologize - especially since this is blunt - but Don't trade here. In fact, telling us you won't trade here is sort of childish. Do you hope that we will beg you to join our trading community? And if we don't, are you going to wage an all out campaign against people trading here? Warning them of danger? What danger? You people focus far too much on one or two specific instances and never, and I mean NEVER look at the overall picture. In the passed 6 months, we have had 3000+ Transactions go through I-trader alone.Which means there could have been up to 500 more that remained ref-less. Of those 3000+ transactions, less than 3% have made the BTL forum. I think we are doing okay for a community and trading system that when you break it down - relies on trust.
Caselogik, The Trading Moderator.
Why don't you Just say my name as I seam to be the only one in this group CASE. Don't worry you won't hear anymore from me.......... Hell I'm done posting...
I'm going to stop being polite in your case and give you some frankness-
Climb off your pedestal, clear your head, and drop the 'I am Mod, I am God' attitude. I'm honestly laughing at the fact that you're calling me childish - I'm not the one who seems to be getting pissy over some perceived slight to my precious 'internet authority' here. Also, I'm not going to organize some kind of boycott - not sure where you pulled that nugget from. Either way, you're damned overreacting.
Nevertheless, I have my personal opinion, which is reflected by others I know. I don't much care for your attempt to browbeat me, either. As I said in my original post, honestly, yours is the kind of reply I'm not interested in reading.
That being said, I'm sure you do your best. As I put in my original post, the issue is transparency. Statistics overall be damned, frankly. One bad apple tends to sour the cider.
I appreciate everyone else who responded to this thread so far. Please continue to discuss.
While even the adrian case some could call favoritism the same was done for both korlash and jeremy(cant remember his nick it was around the same time)
I agree 100% with everything case has just said in regards to the BTL forum and as a trading member for going on a year now i can say that the trade mod staff has almost always proven to be a good group of people.
Yes i am the same guy who trades/sells on MOTL AND Wizards of the Coast and i trade on POJO.
I don't think I came off with a God Complex there. If so, that's not what was intended. I got "pissy" because I am tired of people like you discredting every piece of work that we have. If you don't like how we do things, go to pojo or something. That's what I am saying. I don't actually care whether or not you are interested in my post - by this point - you have already read it. And you are also right, one bad apple spoils the cider. But you must be the type of person who was/is home schooled or you take on-line courses because in life there is always the one bad apple. You learn to deal.
We, as mods (AKA Gods apparently) work really hard to protect our community. When post like this come up, it's frustrating and hard to deal with. Only a few of you know how much work being a mod is. This is not just us, but all the rest of the mods/admin's and owners of this site spend countless hours making sure that you, our community get a good magic experience. If you want to spoil that experience -leave.
Mike/Sapphire - That's fine. I appreciate that you are going to stop posting in our BTL. I hope that wasn't for the whole site - but if so, Peace - I wish you well.
I have had nothing but problems with JayC's attitude both as a mod and as a former mod since day 1. This stems from personal experience as he botched TWO deals with me, one being a sale. He never seemed to take the deals seriously, and there was a distinct apathy in his tones. Much like what we're reading in the bad trader sub-forum - sounds like he doesn't really care and is doing just enough to not get into any "serious" trouble, and the mods are abiding this.
Now it is well known his posts office sucks (I encountered this first hand a year ago), but it begs this question - why the hell does he still use it? If I were a responsible individual (especially one facing ripper allegations) I would maybe go an extra mile or two and get a legit post office or fedex/kinkos or mailboxes etc, or anyone to ship these out. Instead he uses the same old crappy PO and blames their incompetency on extended wait times that could wholly have been avoided. I am not familiar with the area of Cali he lives in, perhaps this is his only option - but even then shouldn't a trading mod be a shining example of how-it-should-be-done? certainly not in his case...
Honestly, trade-banning him would prove/solve nothing, as he claims to be done trading. Does he belong on the BTL? absolutely. 3 bad trades in a row, one for large cash sales. He eventually came through on it, but ONLY after incessant pestering by the other party (and we're supposed to buy that this is an acceptable trading practice?). You have to ask yourself, even if that was a totally isolated incident, if you encountered one such as this, would you ever want to trade again or trust people here? You saw his high ref count and mod title and thought, "why not?"; well how about because I tried to warn you all months ago, on another thread in this very forum buried by posters thinking I was out solely to flame him and ignored the underlying issue that has come back to bite some regular members where it hurts...but I digress.
He should be added to the BTL with a disclaimer that his PO sucks and there were past offenses - which were compensated but only after a long and arduous process that no member should have to endure. Essentially a "trade at your own risk". Adrian's was remarkably similar in it's handling. They both treated the ripper allegations as no big deal - the only difference is JCs personality, in that Adrian doesn't need this site to prosper as he does very well for himself without us; whereas JC has well [self-]published homelife issues. Take it from me, as a solid trader once accused for ripping - you take it very seriously if you care. I did, took responsibility and rectified it within a few days - they chose to drag it out, some have been waiting over a month. Communication or not, how is that justified?
Ok, fine he kept in contact and eventually sent out the stuff from his crappy PO. does that make everything better? hardly. and the mod's attitudes are not mending this broken limb of the trade forum. The message this effectively sends is that you won't ever be labeled a "bad trader" or "ripper" as long as you post occasionally in the accusation thread about having personal issues (real or imagined), and eventually mail out some or all of your end - with little or no repercussions. Ex-mod or not, that behavior should not be tolerated.
I for one understand that things happen outside this little internet forum about magic cards, but it's not that difficult a thing to do - mail some cards you promised some guys you'd send them. It speaks to the depth of your character if you cannot even accomplish this, no matter how depressing your current life-situation is. And the mods cannot objectively deal with this. I do not see it as a case of crony-ism, but more like a general lapse of commonsense when dealing with these types of cases. Consistency will never cause reason to doubt, but exceptions are always glaring.
I'll now hand the soapbox back to Anarki, and wait for inevitable flames that will come my way.
decks:
EDH - Riku, Xiahou, Konda, Azusa
modern - Past in Flames, Onmi-show
vintage - Drains, Oath
coup de grace:
BTL Issues are touchy - Adrian's case was held in the way that it was, because we were afraid of what eventually happened. We pushed too hard- and a whole lot of **** you's were given out as a response and Burk go ripped. Do we think JayC is going to rip anyone? No. Do we think that this is beyond ridiculous? Yes. However, JayC - unlike the other bannings of late- has made an attempt to keep communication going. When this is all resolved, do not think that we won't take some action, because something will occur. However, We aren't banning anyone who makes their end straight.
Hopefully this sheds some light on why some cases are handled the way that they are.
Really? It seems like that's exactly what you are doing.
In all seriousness though, JayC is an awesome guy, but this whole situation is ridiculuous. I agree with what the mods have said, that dropping the hammer on JayC won't do a thing as we all just want this to be resolved, but I think that wether or not JayC decides to ever trade on this site again, he should be reprimanded for his actions.
I understand he has had some "personal problems", but even so, it only really takes 10 or so minutes out of your day to drive to your post office, mail the cards, and be done with it. JayC's apathetic attitude has made it so that there is now a problem with this case, and he is totally in the wrong, as even if he was depressed, he could drive for ten minutes to drop a box off at his awful post office.
What do you suggest?
He isn't trading here anymore, posting here anymore, or anything.
If you think he is going to 'get away' with bad trader practices, he clearly is not. The matter hasn't resolved yet. Actions are never taken while cards are still up in the air and the situation is not clearly that of a ripper that is not going to make things right.
We aren't making excuses. We are trying to get these cards and payments where they belong.
Twitter
I've talked to CaseLogik and let him know if you guys would like me banned, I understand.
Personal issues caused me to really check out for a long while, but no excuses, if you want blood feel free to make the ban official once everyone has their product. It's understandable.
Enough with the long drawn out posts and whining though, the mod's didn't do anything wrong.
JayC
Spread the word.
Why waste the time to make the post and thus talk out of your ass if you're not even going to bother reading the original post I made and respond to the points? You have no right to call them invalid if you are not going to do so.
At no point in my original post did I call for your blood, a fact you would know had you read it. I have no particular interest in your being banned.
Yeah the mods didn't necessarily do anything wrong, YOU did. I'll reserve the rest of my judgment until after everyone gets their cards finally from you, then see what the mods have planned - if anything.
decks:
EDH - Riku, Xiahou, Konda, Azusa
modern - Past in Flames, Onmi-show
vintage - Drains, Oath
coup de grace:
Probably I feel bad for her because my posts are largely comparable to her's except for even less logical and more indifferently offensive (though I do think I make good points, even if not always conventional). Anyways, I think we need people like SapphireTri. Normal posters are so boring. They always have dogmatic views and talk about the same things. There are only several personalities on Salvation that really stand out and she is one of them.
Anyways, I would just like to point out it is very cruel of moderators to make their own personal comments on bad trader threads and then infracture non-moderators for expressing their opinions. Moderators act like they're helping the situation but their posts are often as spammy as that of normal poster's. There is usually only one moderator who is giving an objective stance and solving the case. 3 different mods should not all have the right to post in the same bad trading thread, especially if they're just making a casual response. This is the reason why casual members are barred.
So in conclusion, I say that only important mods should continue commenting in bad trader threads. This will maintain the overall intention of the forum rules and the functioning of the thread.
I agree with you here, and I think that you have a good point that banning JayC now would not do anything, and I think you guys are doing a fine job of making sure that people end up getting their cards.
As mush as I hate to say it, I do think that JayC should be banned from trading, or at least suspended until he either deals with his personal problems, or finds a better way to send things from his post office.
Seconded, I do concur.
His posts offer nothing of substance, while in his current state. If he can pull himself up out of it and stop feeling sorry for himself - I'll be the first to say 'welcome back'. if not, well so long. Might seem harsh, but given the fact he's subjected 3 members to a month-long run around due only to his own personal negligence (in THE very forum he used to run, no less) it is perfectly within reason. Besides with his current attitude, it's not like he'll really care one way or the other.
decks:
EDH - Riku, Xiahou, Konda, Azusa
modern - Past in Flames, Onmi-show
vintage - Drains, Oath
coup de grace:
I feel bad as well... I always enjoyed reading the posts that SappT made, although I never really got involved in many of the discussions.
I'll agree with this as well. The moderators (Some WAY more than others) act very immature and worse than most users; and their posts are, in fact, filled with spam some of the time. They are no better than the average user.
Also, Sapphire infracted many of us for posting and doing what he has been doing in our threads. He knows the rules, and they apply to him just like everyone else.
JayC will be dealt with appropriately. Although I don't think a permanent Ban is in order, his punishment will fit the offense - he knows this, the administration knows this and as much as I appreciate (as well as the other trading mods) all of your input - we will deal with it.
Case
With regards to the mods, I have two points I would like to state.
The first being that I and probably others would appreciate being treated with a little more patience. I realize it is difficult to be patient with people who are not so with you. It does however lower your standings to the community when a moderator loses their cool. It is just a request on my part.
The second being I appreciate your efforts in resolviong this issue with JayC. The trader will be glad to know you are working to get him the cards he traded for. I am glad a group of individuals are able to be called upon with the authority that we have given them to help in conflicts. Let us not forget they are moderators because we all come to this site. If we stopped writing/trading here, then mtgsalvation would have fewer moderators, less discussion, or could even be closed down.
In conclusion, this is my first and only post on this issue. I am not interested in publicly discussing further. I hope that people will learn from the example I have set and everyone, public included, keeps their head during the more heated issues.