Like I said, I'm pretty much limited by what I can see at work since that's when I do like 90% of my posting - but if you can find a more appropriate site, then throw it out there. I'll just post on my phone if I have to.
I think that if we move our clan discussion off to a truly open-voiced forum, we can likely get our venting done and come back over here and play by the rules with regards to reporting spurious posts and such rather than going vigilante on chowderheads and getting infracted for doing so.
[CMB] had an off-forum thread going for a bit but that didn't work very well for us and fell into disuse. That said, this is an entirely different animal. Your guys' posting frequency is insanse. You could probably support like five clan threads.
- Never having been carded myself, I used to think "sigh, you guys never learn" - I always thought you guys were in the right when you kicked someone's ass in here, but always thought you could have avoided it. That's changed, the second I read Teia (read, a mod) referring to RivalTuna as someone "known to troll the forums". If someone is known to troll the forums, ban his ass. If he hasn't been banned, the mod team hasn't been doing its job. From that point on, everything that snowballs into valuable posters being suspended is utter bull****.
- So I call bull**** on this whole thing. "The Clans are meant to be a positive place". Well if you'd been here last week, you would have seen a group of people jumping in to support fellow members who had had family members extremely ill or deceased (and something else I can't recall, it was a pretty bad week). Infract those guys for bringing negativity in here. Doesn't make sense? But infracting because we vent about a situation with someone "known to troll the forums" does? If he's being an idiot, he should stop. Better yet, he should be stopped. When he isn't, we vent. If that is an issue but being a known troll isn't, this is all bull****.
- I'll go where you guys go. Actually, I like the full migration idea the best - 90% of the best posters in R/x are here anyway and the rest can be invited. We keep an eye in here, and if valiant people arise after "the great migration" (oh yeah, that's going to be a thing) we invite them out of here.
We throw them a life-line really. This is bull****.
Blackvise, we're trying to find a way that we can have our thread and still enjoy the site. If it's not possible to enjoy our thread the way we want to here (which seems to be the case) then we need to find another option and that's what we're doing.
Also, I don't think you or the rest of the Admin/mod team are "bad guys" BlackVise, but I also don't think you're anything close to as fair-minded as you'd like to believe. It's painfully obvious that there's a huge gap between what's tolerated from the user base and what the staff is allowed to do. That's pretty apparent when you see the issues that regularly arise in CI - I've never seen as much dissension between the mods and membership on any other site.
redthirst is redthirst, fifth Horseman of the Apocalypse. He was the leader of the Fires of Salvation, the only clan I'm aware of to get modded off the forums so hard they made their own forums.
Degenerate? Sure. Loudmouth? You bet. Law abiding? No ****ing way.
Yeah, I can see the mods general position, even if I believe that certain individuals use their mod status here in the same way that bad cops use their badges and the protection of their brethren. As intelligent and savvy as this clan is both individually and collectively, we can, I believe, use the modding rules to advantage in terms of working to improve the overall quality of discussion within the competitive forum at MTGS. And with an absolutely safe treehouse from which to debate, formulate and crack wise, I think we would stand to benefit all around.
By the way, here's something I think my fellow red mages may enjoy:
No Enemies, by Charles Mackay (English Chartist poet, 1814–1889)
YOU have no enemies, you say?
Alas! my friend, the boast is poor;
He who has mingled in the fray
Of duty, that the brave endure,
Must have made foes! If you have none,
Small is the work that you have done.
You’ve hit no traitor on the hip,
You’ve dashed no cup from perjured lip,
You’ve never turned the wrong to right,
You’ve been a coward in the fight.
Right, I said I would stay out of this conversation, but I felt the need to respond to this.
First of all, that was a fantastic post. From a moderator's perspective it's always nice (and greatly appreciated!) to have issues voiced in a friendly and respectful manner.
Anyway, let me try to address your concerns here. Rivaltuna's behavior elsewhere has absolutely no bearing on the way we've felt this thread should be handled - you may feel he's responsible for this, but ultimately the blame falls on those who felt the need to flame him. I can sympathize, however, as I've used forums and at times there have been members who have detracted from my experience; we can't allow flaming though, plain and simple.
You mention the infractions and zemanjaski's suspension, and I feel it's worth noting that in that whole episode I actually only infracted two posts and warned one other (for censor evasion, not anything related to the posts about Rivaltuna), and no other moderators issued any warnings or infractions. Though it's entirely possible that by following the site's forums to the letter I could have issued more infractions than that I opted not to. Why? Because I (and the rest of the moderation team, for that matter) really don't enjoy handing out warnings and infractions. It's one of the worst parts of being a moderator. It's also worth noting that zemanjaski wasn't suspended specifically for his posts in this thread, but just because that infraction happened to be his third active one.
votan asked you to stop with the flaming etc, which was then met with dissenting comments about the moderators. We felt it then best to approach you guys with a very honest "what do you want from this thread, as it currently seems as though that's outside of what our rules can allow you" and to be quite honest that has been met with a lot of rather unfriendly posts (and a lot of posts that have been incredibly constructive, for which I thank you all :)).
So my question is what more can we do here? We've infracted a few posts whilst trying to keep that to a minimum, posted a request that you stop the unfriendly behavior, and then asked what you want from this thread so we can try to resolve this issue in a way which is amicable for you guys and us.
If we were bad guys as a lot of these posts in here have implied we'd simply have locked the thread and warned/infracted every post possible. That's quite simply not what we want though - we want to find a way for you guys to be happy within the rules and boundaries set down by this site.
Thanks for the response, BlackVise. Just a couple quick things from me.
1. After your post that I've quoted here, Fax posted about RivalTuna. I think that sums it up well. If a user is known by the moderator team to troll the forums, then action should be taken. I know two wrongs don't make a right and I also know that we're each responsible for our own actions. But I don't think it's a stretch to say that if trolling behavior goes unpunished by the mods team for a long time, the community will naturally react. The community will take it upon themselves, whether consciously or not, to "teach them a lesson." That's effectively what happened. It doesn't make it right, but it is a direct result of prior inaction. In my opinion, if anything is addressed at all, then issues along that entire chain of events should be addressed, including said inaction.
2. We're actively discussing how we'd like to resolve this, and what we're looking for.
I think the main problem is that to many of us here, the lines between what is acceptable and what is unacceptable feel like they are drawn in sand. I understand the need to prevent users from directly attacking each other, but I've seen behavior that clearly crossed even that boundary and nothing happened. ***cough***Boros Reckoner thread***cough*** We discussed the hell out of that situation, and nothing happened.
Recently, we were discussing the behavior of a "known" troll, which itself speaks of far more problems, and now we're under threat of sanctioning the entire Clan thread. We took that discussion here to avoid creating a problem elsewhere on the site. Where should we go to discuss that kind of behavior within our own competitive subforum? Can we discuss that behavior?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
The world is on fire
and you are here to stay and burn with me.
I think it's - at least - a good stop-gap measure until we decide that we want to do something else. If it ends up working out, then great! We have our solution.
Plus, there's nothing stopping those that want to stay active here from doing so and those that want to go elsewhere from doing that.
I'd hate to see you guys leave the site altogether.
That most likely won't happen for the majority of the clan - the only real noticable change will be that this thread wouldn't be in this subforum any more.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Of course you should fight fire with fire. You should fight everything with fire."
—Jaya Ballard, task mage
redthirst is redthirst, fifth Horseman of the Apocalypse. He was the leader of the Fires of Salvation, the only clan I'm aware of to get modded off the forums so hard they made their own forums.
Degenerate? Sure. Loudmouth? You bet. Law abiding? No ****ing way.
@BlackVise - I for one really appreciate your encapsulation of the situation and the approach to modding that I've seen from you. We've chatted a bit in the past when I was trying to figure out the rules and I very much felt that you were working towards a positive spirit in both my cards from you and your taking the time to interact with me. Even though the double-posting bugaboo has since been pitched, I felt at the time like I had "grown" in the process.
I will therefore take responsibility for some of my generalized snarkiness and apologize for my globally negative reaction to this situation. I do honestly believe that you guys have some issues within your mod group and need to look seriously at some rather blatant misuses of power (e.g., mods who have infracted people based on difference of opinion as a means of winning an intellectual debate), but as a whole I can respect the difficult balance you must strive to maintain. Therefore, with you and some of your "brethren" in mind, I apologize for letting my emotional response to the situation override my higher-level thinking and manifesting as generalized slights.
As redthirst commented, we recognize that the "kitchen table" freedom we are looking for is outside the bounds of what the establishment feels is appropriate. I for one would appreciate it if the mods/admins would be willing to move on to a fresh page/step down from code red and give us room to sort out the particulars of moving our clan discussion offsite. It would be very difficult for us to manage were the thread to be shut down preemptively, so I humbly request that you allow for the fact that there was bound to be some uproar over this and let things move forward without locking anyone else down (provided, of course, that no one FROM THIS POINT ON makes any further derogatory commentary directed at the mods).
@Clan FoS - We all need to recognize--myself included--that further emoting here at present with regards to personal opinions regarding the administration is likely to end badly. For the sake of the clan as a whole, let all try to keep it level and constructive for now so that we can move forward with a mutually-acceptable solution.
@redthirst - My apologies brother if I am overstepping...I still bow to you as the most beautiful and awe-inspiring of manly presences, but I really don't want my mouth or anyone else's getting us locked down before we can settle things out right. I'm just not willing to be left without some venue for pumping up your ego for any span of time!
redthirst is redthirst, fifth Horseman of the Apocalypse. He was the leader of the Fires of Salvation, the only clan I'm aware of to get modded off the forums so hard they made their own forums.
Degenerate? Sure. Loudmouth? You bet. Law abiding? No ****ing way.
Whoever posted this article was on the right track, I found a few paragraphs that are absolute truths about MTGS that shouldn't actually be truths, because they're the reason that this forum is a cesspool.
MTGS’s ideology is, above all, doing what’s best for “the community.” Every rule, procedure, and attitude the staff takes is toward what would be better for the community, rather than valuing what would create the best content (and, hence, attract a better community). While not a democracy, the staff acts as if it was one. Every possible decision is weighed not on whether it would improve the site, but whether the community would approve of it. And the community is always for the status quo. Thus nothing changes, ever.
And it should. Because none of the mods here believe in the word discretion, and it is literally driving a large group of productive, helpful posters away from this site.
Do you people realize how much you would lose if Hamfactorial simply decided to delete this thread and host it elsewhere? We understand that you don't care for "hostility," but what YOU don't understand is that your ways are what is causing it. Left to our own devices, we have contributed more to this website in just the past few months than a vast majority of its users have since they created their accounts.
The sad truth is that stupidity is more-or-less tolerated at MTGS. The uninformed, the misinformed, the insane, the clueless, all are welcome. All that’s required is enthusiasm and sincerity. Staff at MTGS and its predecessor have (consciously?) made the decision that what’s punishable is anything off-topic, while inane posts on-topic are accepted. Agreeing with someone in a worthless way is fine, making a joke at someone else’s expense is definitely not fine, as that cuts down others’ enthusiasm. Sarcastic posts are clearly labeled, with near-mandatory rolleyes emoticon. It wouldn’t be fair to call MTGS “humorless,” since posters make jokes and there is a forum specifically labeled “humor.” Their version of humor just isn’t funny. It’s harmless, toothless, and obvious, in a similar way to a book of knock-knock jokes for children.
And the sad part is, the staff is okay with this, but the user base isn't. You guys don't care about quality in post, only that they fall in your black-and-white guidelines of what is and is not okay. You'd sooner ban the guy with 5,000+ posts who has been a contributor for years for being tired of answering stupid questions than you would a guy with 20 posts who is asking the exact same stupid question that was asked in a different thread that's still on the front page.
We've been actively working towards creating a level of quality that would take MTGS from a "laughable source of Magic information," which by the way it is considered to be by any player worth their salt, to a place where good, quality information is available to anybody, regardless of whether or not they want to pay Starcity for a premium subscription or not.
Overall, despite what you may think, the moderation here is wildly inconsistent and overall a complete joke. Zemanjaski shouldn't be suspended because Rivaltuna should have been banned ages ago, so shame on you for not doing your job. And now you come in here and tell us that we have to be nice, but why should we do that when there are moderators quite literally provoking us and hypocritically laughing in our faces? Let's be real here.
PS: I don't know why I'm saying "we," but I am. FoS is still for teh scrubz.
redthirst is redthirst, fifth Horseman of the Apocalypse. He was the leader of the Fires of Salvation, the only clan I'm aware of to get modded off the forums so hard they made their own forums.
Degenerate? Sure. Loudmouth? You bet. Law abiding? No ****ing way.
I posted the linked article although, at the moment due to my odd sleeping schedule I don't have the thinking power to articulate such a powerful post, not that I probably could muster an effort as eloquent, Gweivyth.
Sorry to hear about the problems on sally with your clan. The double standards of staff combined with the condescending tone became too much for me. I even Stepped down as [Soundtrack] leader when I left. I feel better now that I'm somewhere where I'm respected and treated equal.
But I should have been more clear, I think redthirst was being a twit, but I don't necessarily think that being a twit is worth an infraction. Hopefully "twit" isn't considered flaming, but if I can't tell you how my moderated mind works, we are in trouble.... I suspect we all see the same things and react to them the same, but we have slightly different goals and that's why we talk things out.
redthirst is redthirst, fifth Horseman of the Apocalypse. He was the leader of the Fires of Salvation, the only clan I'm aware of to get modded off the forums so hard they made their own forums.
Degenerate? Sure. Loudmouth? You bet. Law abiding? No ****ing way.
Just to clarify...while I have no objection to considering other MtG communities as part of a future plan, I think the clan thread needs to be completely outside the public eye. Admission by invite/application only. This is about protection in both directions...I don't think that anyone should be able to listen in on "treehouse" discussions with any overriding control, and by the same token I don't want to see anyone's day ruined without purposeful intent just because someone wanders in and starts pointing people at our viewable discussion. This is what most appeals to me about ham's offer to give us use of his kitchen table...we close the door, and the only modding is our own group dynamic (of course assuming that none of you scrubs are crass enough to eat the last of ham's bacon or drink his wine while he's off chatting up young ladies at the gym...woe be to you if you step over that line). Where we then participate with regards to Magic discussions is in no way impinging on the clan dynamic.
Master hamwise, thank you very much sir for your offered hospitality. You are a brother in every sense of the word.
Good afternoon, red mages, not red mages, staff, and the like. I see a bomb exploded in here while I was at work. Lordy, lordy, lordy.
Anyhow, my position is I really don't care where I am as long as I am with my brethren. I'd prefer migrating to another community if this one cannot support us, but I suppose another forum will do.
Still, I hope we can come to a less drastic measure than mass exodus.
Right, I apologize if this comes across as draconian, but I want you guys to be able to have a civil conversation without outsiders coming in and trying to incite drama.
As such, I have sent Gweivyth a moderator request to stop posting in this thread until further notice. This will not be a permanent measure, but I want to allow you guys to get back to civil discussion without outsiders attempting to incite further drama.
Just for sake of opinion, BV, I find this a balanced measure for the moment. I am in spirit with Gweivyth about some things, but I think the clan as a whole is committed to solutions rather than falling on our collective swords at the moment. Thanks for being forthright about your motivations and for seeking balance--it's appreciated.
I'm of the opinion that with what's transpired over the course of my tenure with the FoS that moving would be the best thing for us. While I really don't want to deal with the hassle, it's becoming increasingly apparent that the members of our group are largely incompatible with not the mods, but the rules of this site. It's all ideological.
The fact that people don't get banned for stupidity but we get suspended for calling out douchbaggery is unacceptable to the majority of our sensibilities and that's a major problem, let alone the "abuses" of power of mods that some of our members perceive in various staff members. As such, I'm predicting an exodus to another forum for clan related activities as it's unlikely that the admins will change there rules to accommodate our image of a more healthy Salvation mod practices.
One thing I would suggest to my brothers would be speaking up in the rules thread if there is such a thing to suggest changes to the site as nobody will know there is a problem if no one speaks up.
Reiterating, I think it's time for us to move. I'd be fine with us staying here, but I think it would be better for the majority of the group to pack our bags because none of us like our speech/thought being regulated for the sake of "lets play nice kids", least of all me.
LP, I'm checking your article out as well. Behind all of your swag is the brain of one of the most intelligent Magic players I've ever known. I guess that's one more thing for you to add to the wall of ego that is your Sally sig.
I can go with that. LK, you are the Mace Windu of red mages...cool, tempered logic in deliberation, but capable of just flat kicking tail when the situation warrants it.
Noooo! He's ours!
Yep, government firewalls are annoying.
[CMB] had an off-forum thread going for a bit but that didn't work very well for us and fell into disuse. That said, this is an entirely different animal. Your guys' posting frequency is insanse. You could probably support like five clan threads.
- Never having been carded myself, I used to think "sigh, you guys never learn" - I always thought you guys were in the right when you kicked someone's ass in here, but always thought you could have avoided it. That's changed, the second I read Teia (read, a mod) referring to RivalTuna as someone "known to troll the forums". If someone is known to troll the forums, ban his ass. If he hasn't been banned, the mod team hasn't been doing its job. From that point on, everything that snowballs into valuable posters being suspended is utter bull****.
- So I call bull**** on this whole thing. "The Clans are meant to be a positive place". Well if you'd been here last week, you would have seen a group of people jumping in to support fellow members who had had family members extremely ill or deceased (and something else I can't recall, it was a pretty bad week). Infract those guys for bringing negativity in here. Doesn't make sense? But infracting because we vent about a situation with someone "known to troll the forums" does? If he's being an idiot, he should stop. Better yet, he should be stopped. When he isn't, we vent. If that is an issue but being a known troll isn't, this is all bull****.
- I'll go where you guys go. Actually, I like the full migration idea the best - 90% of the best posters in R/x are here anyway and the rest can be invited. We keep an eye in here, and if valiant people arise after "the great migration" (oh yeah, that's going to be a thing) we invite them out of here.
We throw them a life-line really. This is bull****.
R Reach out and torch someone R
Find me on MTGO under the same username
Also, I don't think you or the rest of the Admin/mod team are "bad guys" BlackVise, but I also don't think you're anything close to as fair-minded as you'd like to believe. It's painfully obvious that there's a huge gap between what's tolerated from the user base and what the staff is allowed to do. That's pretty apparent when you see the issues that regularly arise in CI - I've never seen as much dissension between the mods and membership on any other site.
—Jaya Ballard, task mage
No Enemies, by Charles Mackay (English Chartist poet, 1814–1889)
YOU have no enemies, you say?
Alas! my friend, the boast is poor;
He who has mingled in the fray
Of duty, that the brave endure,
Must have made foes! If you have none,
Small is the work that you have done.
You’ve hit no traitor on the hip,
You’ve dashed no cup from perjured lip,
You’ve never turned the wrong to right,
You’ve been a coward in the fight.
R Reach out and torch someone R
Find me on MTGO under the same username
Thanks for the response, BlackVise. Just a couple quick things from me.
1. After your post that I've quoted here, Fax posted about RivalTuna. I think that sums it up well. If a user is known by the moderator team to troll the forums, then action should be taken. I know two wrongs don't make a right and I also know that we're each responsible for our own actions. But I don't think it's a stretch to say that if trolling behavior goes unpunished by the mods team for a long time, the community will naturally react. The community will take it upon themselves, whether consciously or not, to "teach them a lesson." That's effectively what happened. It doesn't make it right, but it is a direct result of prior inaction. In my opinion, if anything is addressed at all, then issues along that entire chain of events should be addressed, including said inaction.
2. We're actively discussing how we'd like to resolve this, and what we're looking for.
Thanks again.
Standard: lol no
Modern: BG/x, UR/x, Burn, Merfolk, Zoo, Storm
Legacy: Shardless BUG, Delver (BUG, RUG, Grixis), Landstill, Depths Combo, Merfolk
Vintage: Dark Times, BUG Fish, Merfolk
EDH: Teysa, Orzhov Scion / Krenko, Mob Boss / Stonebrow, Krosan Hero
Recently, we were discussing the behavior of a "known" troll, which itself speaks of far more problems, and now we're under threat of sanctioning the entire Clan thread. We took that discussion here to avoid creating a problem elsewhere on the site. Where should we go to discuss that kind of behavior within our own competitive subforum? Can we discuss that behavior?
The world is on fire
and you are here to stay and burn with me.
Makes sense to me as well.
Standard: lol no
Modern: BG/x, UR/x, Burn, Merfolk, Zoo, Storm
Legacy: Shardless BUG, Delver (BUG, RUG, Grixis), Landstill, Depths Combo, Merfolk
Vintage: Dark Times, BUG Fish, Merfolk
EDH: Teysa, Orzhov Scion / Krenko, Mob Boss / Stonebrow, Krosan Hero
That most likely won't happen for the majority of the clan - the only real noticable change will be that this thread wouldn't be in this subforum any more.
—Jaya Ballard, task mage
I will therefore take responsibility for some of my generalized snarkiness and apologize for my globally negative reaction to this situation. I do honestly believe that you guys have some issues within your mod group and need to look seriously at some rather blatant misuses of power (e.g., mods who have infracted people based on difference of opinion as a means of winning an intellectual debate), but as a whole I can respect the difficult balance you must strive to maintain. Therefore, with you and some of your "brethren" in mind, I apologize for letting my emotional response to the situation override my higher-level thinking and manifesting as generalized slights.
As redthirst commented, we recognize that the "kitchen table" freedom we are looking for is outside the bounds of what the establishment feels is appropriate. I for one would appreciate it if the mods/admins would be willing to move on to a fresh page/step down from code red and give us room to sort out the particulars of moving our clan discussion offsite. It would be very difficult for us to manage were the thread to be shut down preemptively, so I humbly request that you allow for the fact that there was bound to be some uproar over this and let things move forward without locking anyone else down (provided, of course, that no one FROM THIS POINT ON makes any further derogatory commentary directed at the mods).
@Clan FoS - We all need to recognize--myself included--that further emoting here at present with regards to personal opinions regarding the administration is likely to end badly. For the sake of the clan as a whole, let all try to keep it level and constructive for now so that we can move forward with a mutually-acceptable solution.
@redthirst - My apologies brother if I am overstepping...I still bow to you as the most beautiful and awe-inspiring of manly presences, but I really don't want my mouth or anyone else's getting us locked down before we can settle things out right. I'm just not willing to be left without some venue for pumping up your ego for any span of time!
Trust me. None of us wants that.
—Jaya Ballard, task mage
And it should. Because none of the mods here believe in the word discretion, and it is literally driving a large group of productive, helpful posters away from this site.
Do you people realize how much you would lose if Hamfactorial simply decided to delete this thread and host it elsewhere? We understand that you don't care for "hostility," but what YOU don't understand is that your ways are what is causing it. Left to our own devices, we have contributed more to this website in just the past few months than a vast majority of its users have since they created their accounts.
And the sad part is, the staff is okay with this, but the user base isn't. You guys don't care about quality in post, only that they fall in your black-and-white guidelines of what is and is not okay. You'd sooner ban the guy with 5,000+ posts who has been a contributor for years for being tired of answering stupid questions than you would a guy with 20 posts who is asking the exact same stupid question that was asked in a different thread that's still on the front page.
We've been actively working towards creating a level of quality that would take MTGS from a "laughable source of Magic information," which by the way it is considered to be by any player worth their salt, to a place where good, quality information is available to anybody, regardless of whether or not they want to pay Starcity for a premium subscription or not.
Overall, despite what you may think, the moderation here is wildly inconsistent and overall a complete joke. Zemanjaski shouldn't be suspended because Rivaltuna should have been banned ages ago, so shame on you for not doing your job. And now you come in here and tell us that we have to be nice, but why should we do that when there are moderators quite literally provoking us and hypocritically laughing in our faces? Let's be real here.
PS: I don't know why I'm saying "we," but I am. FoS is still for teh scrubz.
Because we care about facts.
Good man. Be consistent.
—Jaya Ballard, task mage
I posted the linked article although, at the moment due to my odd sleeping schedule I don't have the thinking power to articulate such a powerful post, not that I probably could muster an effort as eloquent, Gweivyth.
I still consider myself a part of this community at large, and Zeman is my friend, so I'm just as irritated as you.
Because we care about facts.
Best of luck
EDIT: Damn you got a lot of aussies in here!
LOL
Because we care about facts.
I like it. Mad props.
And it continues.
Because we care about facts.
Whatevs. Let's get back to the real discussion.
—Jaya Ballard, task mage
Master hamwise, thank you very much sir for your offered hospitality. You are a brother in every sense of the word.
Anyhow, my position is I really don't care where I am as long as I am with my brethren. I'd prefer migrating to another community if this one cannot support us, but I suppose another forum will do.
Still, I hope we can come to a less drastic measure than mass exodus.
Just for sake of opinion, BV, I find this a balanced measure for the moment. I am in spirit with Gweivyth about some things, but I think the clan as a whole is committed to solutions rather than falling on our collective swords at the moment. Thanks for being forthright about your motivations and for seeking balance--it's appreciated.
I'm of the opinion that with what's transpired over the course of my tenure with the FoS that moving would be the best thing for us. While I really don't want to deal with the hassle, it's becoming increasingly apparent that the members of our group are largely incompatible with not the mods, but the rules of this site. It's all ideological.
The fact that people don't get banned for stupidity but we get suspended for calling out douchbaggery is unacceptable to the majority of our sensibilities and that's a major problem, let alone the "abuses" of power of mods that some of our members perceive in various staff members. As such, I'm predicting an exodus to another forum for clan related activities as it's unlikely that the admins will change there rules to accommodate our image of a more healthy Salvation mod practices.
One thing I would suggest to my brothers would be speaking up in the rules thread if there is such a thing to suggest changes to the site as nobody will know there is a problem if no one speaks up.
Reiterating, I think it's time for us to move. I'd be fine with us staying here, but I think it would be better for the majority of the group to pack our bags because none of us like our speech/thought being regulated for the sake of "lets play nice kids", least of all me.