I've been play testing my decks for awhile now. I need to add more lands (which pretty much everyone has said at one point or another on a couple of sites...lol) But is there a simple equation such as: 40% lands straight up? Or is it more like 40 lands - 1 for every two sources of ramp/rocks?
I've never focused that much on land, to be honest, was wondering what others who do have to say. Thanks.
For reference, I sit at 34-36 lands per deck, with ramp/rocks anywhere from 6-10 sources.
That also depends more on your mana curve. If you top out at 3 or 4, you can get away with far less lands/mana rocks. However, I would think that for a general edh deck (non green, anyways), 36 lands and up to 10 mana rocks would be useful. Curving out is pretty important.
My recomendation is 38 lands. And 10 sources or manafixing/acceleration on topp of that. For a total of 48 mana sources. Creatures are less reliable then artifact or spell bases ramp.
While you 'can' get by with only 38 lands, you will often be stranded with to little mana to battle somebody who has a lot of acceleration and is getting ahead of you in game.
I also like to include card advantage in the form of raw card draw, no matter the colour. So about 10 cards that draw cards, in addition to the 10 mana rocks. That should leave you with a bit more then 40 chards to be the rest of your deck. Unless you are an all in combo deck I would recomend some form of interaction with your opponent in the form of removal spells, say 10 of those. Now you have a little over 30 cards to be the theme of your deck. Mind you, a lot of the removal, card draw and aman ramp can go with your theme.
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I have dyslexia, no I am not going to spell check for you, yes you have to live with the horrors of it.
I find 32-36 to be the right number of lands, and then a variety of mana rocks depending on the colors. Usually more is better, but it depends on the deck. I tend to run around 7, more if the deck is more than 3 colors. I usually find that to be the appropriate balance so I'm not drawing mana very often in the later turns, especially with fetches and a Crucible.
It depends a lot on your deck though, and your mana curve.
It depends on the deck. My Marchesa, The Black Rose plays Sol Ring, Chromatic Lantern and 36 lands. The deck ideally wants to cast creatures turn 1-3 and drop Marchesa on Turn 4. The deck has a lot of card draw, but does not attempt to ramp in any way.
My Maelstrom Wanderer plays 37 lands and has at least 20 ramp spells (cards like Teferi, Temporal Archmage pull double duty). The deck wants to cast the general as fast as possible, so this makes sense.
It also depends on the speed of your meta. Faster meta = needs more mana acceleration.
The issue with ramp is that it does nothing by itself. It is a bad topdeck if you're out of cards. If your meta is so fast that most games are over by turn 4, then it doesn't matter - you will never have an empty hand anyway, so you need to speed up to a gamewinning play.
If your group enjoys longer games, then you need to adjust.
I found 36 is much more reasonable when deckbuilding. 37-40 is usually more for a green deck that loves to ramp. 35 and under starts to get a bit dicey depending on your deck build. The lowest amount I have built with is 30 lands and that is because all my cards in my deck and command zone had costed 1 or less.
I usually go with 37 + or - 2 as reference, depending on how many other mana sources I pack. In a deck full of elves, I take into account that the elves themselves can attack, therefore serve multiple purposes. Some rocks are useless in the late game so keeping that in mind would also help you adjust.
It's pretty tricky to nail down, but essentially I try to make the deck almost 50% mana, with a quarter of that being non-land sources - so like 38 lands and 12 accelerants, which can be anything from mana rocks to Kodama's Reach effects depending on how the deck is set up. Then I try to balance the speed - basically for every land that's going to enter tapped I try to provide something that will bump my mana ahead - so if I use a Temple of Plenty then I try to throw in something like Talisman of Unity, so that on average I'm "on curve" while still getting the benefits of scries and manlands and stuff. I don't know how effective something like that actually is or if it's helping my mana or anything, but I've stuck by it for a few years and it makes things feel more steady, in my opinion.
After that I just use the little pie-and-wheel graph on Tapped Out to try and line up my fixing. So no algebra here for you, just a list of steps to try and follow that I always use to make sense of my mana
What's your curve?
How dependent are you on your commander? (Getting Wrath'd means paying 2 moar just to get your commander back. Except for Derevi because she's a blankety blank blank.)
How many spells are you going to cast each turn?
What about mana sinks?
Do you plan to keep mana open for counterspells and other instant-speed tricks?
Multicolor only: How many mana of each color are on your spells?
I also make a rule to keep half my lands basic becausereasons.
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Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
I used to do 40, -1 for every 2 ramp cards. Now I lean more towards 8x8 builds (pick 8 effects, get 8 cards for that effect, add lands until you hit 100), with one of my 8 effects being ramp.
On top of the 40 minus 1 for 2 other mana sources rules I generally follow, I've set a minimum of 35 lands (that produce mana) because unless your density of 0/1-mana mana rocks/ramp is very high (no 1 Mana Crypt and 1 Sol Ring does not count as high), you honestly want to see at least 2 lands in your opening hand with your ramp. Just throw in some decent sources of card-drawing (especially in non-green since green can ramp the lands literally out) and you shouldn't be stuck in a land-flooding situation.
I go with 37 lands (33 in monocolor) and it often works out. I seldom feel starved. (Granted I mana fix every few games and I mana fix before I head out to my lgs.)
I used to do 40, -1 for every 2 ramp cards. Now I lean more towards 8x8 builds (pick 8 effects, get 8 cards for that effect, add lands until you hit 100), with one of my 8 effects being ramp.
There is something to be said for the "-1 for every 2 ramp cards", and that something is "Why are you playing ramp again?"
When I played like that, I had a rule that it only applied if the ramp card cost 3 or less.
It's very specific to ramp cards. I have very specific reasons for running mana dorks and mana rocks. (Armageddon insurance.)
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Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
If you really want the math behind the number of lands in your deck, you need to look to probability/combinatorics. The idea is you decide how many lands you want in your starting hand based on your deck's curve/playstyle, then do the math to figure the probability of getting the desired number of lands in your starting hand.
The equation for finding the probability of a "k" land hand with "n" lands in your commander deck is this:
(((99-n)!/((7-k)!(92-(n-k))!))(n!/(k!(n-k)!))))/(99!/(7!92!))
My minimum is typically 37 lands unless my average CMC is ~2.5. From there I figure out what I want my ramp to be. I don't substitute lands for ramp to go below 37.
I used to do 40, -1 for every 2 ramp cards. Now I lean more towards 8x8 builds (pick 8 effects, get 8 cards for that effect, add lands until you hit 100), with one of my 8 effects being ramp.
There is something to be said for the "-1 for every 2 ramp cards", and that something is "Why are you playing ramp again?"
When I played like that, I had a rule that it only applied if the ramp card cost 3 or less.
It's very specific to ramp cards. I have very specific reasons for running mana dorks and mana rocks. (Armageddon insurance.)
Yeah, playing a ramp card and missing your land drop is literally wasting the mana you spent on casting the mana rock. So basically the first time you miss a land drop, you may as well have played any card that let you grab another land from your deck instead of the ramp. Ofc, barring situations like wanting to cast a 4 mana general consistently on T3, or what have you.
The problem with the question is that players feel that there is a magic number (38, 40, whatever) that guarantees that they will not get screwed. Or at least minimizes the chances that they will as much as mathematically possible, so as to reassure players when it does happen that it couldn’t have been avoided. The math that actually impacts this the most is that you have 7 cards in your opening hand, and the game makes you take 1 in 3 shots each turn at getting any more mana. Upgrading that chance from a strict 1 in 3 to a 2 in 5 is not a very big difference. Giving yourself more 1 in 3 chances is better.
If you are waffling between running more lands, more ramp cards, or more draw (3cmc or less), then go with draw every single time. Once you have enough draw to consistently access enough mana for your big draw spells (Greed, Recurring Insight, Conc Sphinx, what have you), that’s when you start including ramp cards that are there just for the sake of ramp. Again, as opposed to making a certain mana count as early as possible, which is a separate goal.
This is why you see a lot of decks with 34-36 land and huge mana budgets, where in a format like Standard, any deck with 6cmc cards in it would probably have 25 or more land. There are numerous cheap draw spells in EDH. Putting in 35 land to your deck, counting your rocks, then failing to run any of the cheap draw and cursing the gods when you hit screw, that’s a recipe for frustration.
Btw, I love the Basic Landcycling cards from Commander 2016.
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I've never focused that much on land, to be honest, was wondering what others who do have to say. Thanks.
For reference, I sit at 34-36 lands per deck, with ramp/rocks anywhere from 6-10 sources.
Credit to DolZero for this awesome sig!
While you 'can' get by with only 38 lands, you will often be stranded with to little mana to battle somebody who has a lot of acceleration and is getting ahead of you in game.
I also like to include card advantage in the form of raw card draw, no matter the colour. So about 10 cards that draw cards, in addition to the 10 mana rocks. That should leave you with a bit more then 40 chards to be the rest of your deck. Unless you are an all in combo deck I would recomend some form of interaction with your opponent in the form of removal spells, say 10 of those. Now you have a little over 30 cards to be the theme of your deck. Mind you, a lot of the removal, card draw and aman ramp can go with your theme.
It depends a lot on your deck though, and your mana curve.
WUBRGReaper King - Superfriends
WUBRGChild of Alara - The Nauseating Aurora
WUBSharuum the Hegemon - Christmas In Prison
WUBZur the Enchanter - Ow My Face
WRJor Kadeen, the Prevailer - Snow Goats
BRGrenzo, Dungeon Warden - International Goblin All Purpose Recycling Facility Number 12
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UPatron of the Moon - The Age of Aquarius
BHorobi, Death's Wail - Bring Out Your Dead
GSachi, Daughter of Seshiro - Sneks
My Maelstrom Wanderer plays 37 lands and has at least 20 ramp spells (cards like Teferi, Temporal Archmage pull double duty). The deck wants to cast the general as fast as possible, so this makes sense.
It also depends on the speed of your meta. Faster meta = needs more mana acceleration.
The issue with ramp is that it does nothing by itself. It is a bad topdeck if you're out of cards. If your meta is so fast that most games are over by turn 4, then it doesn't matter - you will never have an empty hand anyway, so you need to speed up to a gamewinning play.
If your group enjoys longer games, then you need to adjust.
8.RG Green Devotion Ramp/Combo 9.UR Draw Triggers 10.WUR Group stalling 11.WUR Voltron Spellslinger 12.WB Sacrificial Shenanigans
13.BR Creatureless Panharmonicon 14.BR Pingers and Eldrazi 15.URG Untapped Cascading
16.Reyhan, last of the Abzan's WUBG +1/+1 Counter Craziness 17.WUBRG Dragons aka Why did I make this?
Building: The Gitrog Monster lands, Glissa the Traitor stax, Muldrotha, the Gravetide Planeswalker Combo, Kydele, Chosen of Kruphix + Sidar Kondo of Jamuraa Clues, and Tribal Scarecrow Planeswalkers
Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest WUR Voltron Control
Temmet, Vizier of Naktamun WU Unblockable Mirror Trickery
Ra's al Ghul (Sidar Kondo) and Face-Down Ninjas
Brudiclad, Token Engineer
Vaevictis (VV2) the Dire Lantern
Rona, Disciple of Gix
Tiana the Auror
Hallar
Ulrich the Politician
Zur the Rebel
Scorpion, Locust, Scarab, Egyptian Gods
O-Kagachi, Mathas, Mairsil
"Non-Tribal" Tribal Generals, Eggs
After that I just use the little pie-and-wheel graph on Tapped Out to try and line up my fixing. So no algebra here for you, just a list of steps to try and follow that I always use to make sense of my mana
What's your curve?
How dependent are you on your commander? (Getting Wrath'd means paying 2 moar just to get your commander back. Except for Derevi because she's a blankety blank blank.)
How many spells are you going to cast each turn?
What about mana sinks?
Do you plan to keep mana open for counterspells and other instant-speed tricks?
Multicolor only: How many mana of each color are on your spells?
I also make a rule to keep half my lands basic because reasons.
On phasing:
Two Score, Minus Two or: A Stargate Tail
(Image by totallynotabrony)
UB Vela the Night-Clad BUDecklist
WBG Ghave, Guru of Spores GBW
WUBRGThe Ur-DragonWUBRGDecklist
There is something to be said for the "-1 for every 2 ramp cards", and that something is "Why are you playing ramp again?"
When I played like that, I had a rule that it only applied if the ramp card cost 3 or less.
It's very specific to ramp cards. I have very specific reasons for running mana dorks and mana rocks. (Armageddon insurance.)
On phasing:
The equation for finding the probability of a "k" land hand with "n" lands in your commander deck is this:
(((99-n)!/((7-k)!(92-(n-k))!))(n!/(k!(n-k)!))))/(99!/(7!92!))
Yeah, playing a ramp card and missing your land drop is literally wasting the mana you spent on casting the mana rock. So basically the first time you miss a land drop, you may as well have played any card that let you grab another land from your deck instead of the ramp. Ofc, barring situations like wanting to cast a 4 mana general consistently on T3, or what have you.
The problem with the question is that players feel that there is a magic number (38, 40, whatever) that guarantees that they will not get screwed. Or at least minimizes the chances that they will as much as mathematically possible, so as to reassure players when it does happen that it couldn’t have been avoided. The math that actually impacts this the most is that you have 7 cards in your opening hand, and the game makes you take 1 in 3 shots each turn at getting any more mana. Upgrading that chance from a strict 1 in 3 to a 2 in 5 is not a very big difference. Giving yourself more 1 in 3 chances is better.
If you are waffling between running more lands, more ramp cards, or more draw (3cmc or less), then go with draw every single time. Once you have enough draw to consistently access enough mana for your big draw spells (Greed, Recurring Insight, Conc Sphinx, what have you), that’s when you start including ramp cards that are there just for the sake of ramp. Again, as opposed to making a certain mana count as early as possible, which is a separate goal.
This is why you see a lot of decks with 34-36 land and huge mana budgets, where in a format like Standard, any deck with 6cmc cards in it would probably have 25 or more land. There are numerous cheap draw spells in EDH. Putting in 35 land to your deck, counting your rocks, then failing to run any of the cheap draw and cursing the gods when you hit screw, that’s a recipe for frustration.
Btw, I love the Basic Landcycling cards from Commander 2016.