So I've been building an interesting BW list around low CMC's and low power, and Ad Nauseum has been on the basically since it's inception. As soon as I finished my first draft of the deck the first thing I did was start flipping cards off the top as an Ad Nauseum test. After a few times doing that I did the math out and it matched my results. Every card is going to cost an average of slightly less than two life, and every nonland I draw is costing me three life. This seems absolutely reasonable to me, especially considering the deck has a healthy amount of auxiliary lifegain, but I'm curious how low this number would have to get for most people on this forum to think about playing Ad Nauseum.
So what are your thoughts on the matter? Because I'm thinking 15 life for a full grip at instant speed sounds perfectly fine.
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Generals meant to be drafted first in a single pack of 6 cards.
And here is the actual cube, meant to be drafted in 4 regular sized packs. (60 card decks)
If your average is more than one or two, you can usually do quite well with Necrologia. The timing on Ad Naus is better, but you'll get a better ratio out of Necrologia.
Also, there's Promise of Power to consider if you're considering drawing around 5; if your average is around 1, Promise will get you the same number of cards, while having greater options (the entwine, or even just 5 mana for a flying demon can be clutch).
I don't think I'd want to play Ad Naus, Bob or Gatecrash Vampire Bob with an average of greater than two or three...
If you have lifegain I think Necropotence is better if your not trying to combo.
This. Ad Nauseam while insanely strong should be used as a "1 card combo" piece with the deck designed somewhat around it. It seems you are looking for something similar to Necropotence or Necrologia.
I think my AN deck has a average cost of 2.32 or something.
Oooh, another comparable one is Moonlight Bargain; if you don't need masses of cards (i.e. you're willing to dump lands or currently irrelevant answers), it can be pretty efficient.
Oooh, another comparable one is Moonlight Bargain; if you're don't need masses of cards (i.e. you're willing to dump lands or currently irrelevant answers), it can be pretty efficient.
Agreed. Black FoF is underplayed (or still largely unknown, I can't tell).
Compare it to necro.
Necro is 1 life per card regardless of CMC but has a sharp drawback of discard = exile.
So let's look at AN in this light. How much is instant speed worth to you? How much is being able to draw without fear of discard -> exile worth to you? How many life will you be losing on average?
If your expected life loss per card is ~2 then I say it's a wash and AN is as good as necropotence (so it's really good). At >= 3 it becomes good but situational (i.e. you have to be mindful of your life total). In addition it also compares nicely to Moonlight Bargain (at the <= 2 life per card leve), which is cash in B and I hope you are using it.
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Oooh, another comparable one is Moonlight Bargain; if you're don't need masses of cards (i.e. you're willing to dump lands or currently irrelevant answers), it can be pretty efficient.
See, I knew that card existed, but the fact that it's an instant keeps leaking out of my head. I also need this card now.
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Check out the thread for my cube if you have the time, and tell me how terrible it is.
Generals meant to be drafted first in a single pack of 6 cards.
And here is the actual cube, meant to be drafted in 4 regular sized packs. (60 card decks)
May I ask what kind of deck you would need all this draw in if you're not using it to combo off?
A super durdly deck that needs to compensate for the fact that I don't feel comfortable if I don't have the same draw power as I would playing blue.
Honestly though, it's really durdly on paper and because everything is very cheap I expect my hand to be being dumped very quickly very frequently, so more draw power seems good.
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Check out the thread for my cube if you have the time, and tell me how terrible it is.
Generals meant to be drafted first in a single pack of 6 cards.
And here is the actual cube, meant to be drafted in 4 regular sized packs. (60 card decks)
Agreed. Black FoF is underplayed (or still largely unknown, I can't tell).
MLB is probably under used because it does not have the word "draw" so when you search for black draw spells you miss it.
Actually due to its uniqueness but lack of extreme tournament pedigree, unless you've seen it or were rabidly obsessed with MTG back with Rav 1.0 I could see it definitely being a card that very few people are aware of.
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"I think EDH would be more fun for the majority of participants if players just showed eachother their decks rather than actually playing games out."
MLB is probably under used because it does not have the word "draw" so when you search for black draw spells you miss it.
Actually due to its uniqueness but lack of extreme tournament pedigree, unless you've seen it or were rabidly obsessed with MTG back with Rav 1.0 I could see it definitely being a card that very few people are aware of.
Yeah, I only found it because I was on a random gatherer spree forever ago, and I realized that because ad nauseum doesn't have draw others like it might not and changed my search parameters accordingly.
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Check out the thread for my cube if you have the time, and tell me how terrible it is.
Generals meant to be drafted first in a single pack of 6 cards.
And here is the actual cube, meant to be drafted in 4 regular sized packs. (60 card decks)
Yeah, I only found it because I was on a random gatherer spree forever ago, and I realized that because ad nauseum doesn't have draw others like it might not and changed my search parameters accordingly.
I only discovered MLB because an LGS near where I lived went under, and they were selling their remaining singles for next to nothing. I bought a ton indiscriminately, and discovered it in my spoils.
It lives in my Grimgrin deck, because of the mass reanimate options. It's fun to dig for one of the mass rez cards, but if you fail to find in the top five, you can pay some life to keep some mans.
I only discovered MLB because an LGS near where I lived went under, and they were selling their remaining singles for next to nothing. I bought a ton indiscriminately, and discovered it in my spoils.
It lives in my Grimgrin deck, because of the mass reanimate options. It's fun to dig for one of the mass rez cards, but if you fail to find in the top five, you can pay some life to keep some mans.
Yeah, I think I'd actually put it in Jarad first though when/if I get a copy. Because then I can just take everything that isn't a creature.
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Check out the thread for my cube if you have the time, and tell me how terrible it is.
Generals meant to be drafted first in a single pack of 6 cards.
And here is the actual cube, meant to be drafted in 4 regular sized packs. (60 card decks)
So I've been building an interesting BW list around low CMC's and low power, and Ad Nauseum has been on the basically since it's inception. As soon as I finished my first draft of the deck the first thing I did was start flipping cards off the top as an Ad Nauseum test. After a few times doing that I did the math out and it matched my results. Every card is going to cost an average of slightly less than two life, and every nonland I draw is costing me three life. This seems absolutely reasonable to me, especially considering the deck has a healthy amount of auxiliary lifegain, but I'm curious how low this number would have to get for most people on this forum to think about playing Ad Nauseum.
So what are your thoughts on the matter? Because I'm thinking 15 life for a full grip at instant speed sounds perfectly fine.
Have you considered Necrologia? You've probably mentioned it already (as you're a poster that typically does), but for a variety of reasons it might suite your needs better. I've tested AN/N extensively, and both have suitable places. AN is better for low CMC combo storm decks where the average CMC is 1-2.5 with a large percentage of cards being 1 or 0 CMC, so theoretically you're drawing something like 20+ cards for 15-20 life. N is better suited for very generalized applications where you want to draw a huge amount of cards for a flat rate, with ways of recuperating.
Personally, unless it's a storm-style build, go with N or even Necropotence.
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Actual Truth:
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Anyone who disagrees with "Jack from NC" is an idiot."-The Dead Weatherman
Have you considered Necrologia? You've probably mentioned it already (as you're a poster that typically does), but for a variety of reasons it might suite your needs better. I've tested AN/N extensively, and both have suitable places. AN is better for low CMC combo storm decks where the average CMC is 1-2.5 with a large percentage of cards being 1 or 0 CMC, so theoretically you're drawing something like 20+ cards for 15-20 life. N is better suited for very generalized applications where you want to draw a huge amount of cards for a flat rate, with ways of recuperating.
Personally, unless it's a storm-style build, go with N or even Necropotence.
My big problem with Necrologia is that it has a hard cap on how many cards I can realistically get out of it. Getting more than enough to fill your hand just puts stuff into the graveyard, and as much as the deck does interact with the graveyard it only really does so with cheap things that are going to be more profitable to get there from play. I can EOT Ad Nauseum and draw cards until I know I have too many to play in the turn and then stop. I think paying a little less than twice as much life is an alright trade for having it at instant speed.
I love Necro and run it in another deck, but it doesn't do what I want it to here.
Emperion is one card, and costs 8. It'd really just make things worse putting it in the deck.
And the main purpose of this thread wasn't "Should I be running AN" because I'm going to. I've weighed the risks and plan on doing so. I'm actually just curious what other people think you average life-per-card should be.
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Check out the thread for my cube if you have the time, and tell me how terrible it is.
Generals meant to be drafted first in a single pack of 6 cards.
And here is the actual cube, meant to be drafted in 4 regular sized packs. (60 card decks)
My big problem with Necrologia is that it has a hard cap on how many cards I can realistically get out of it. Getting more than enough to fill your hand just puts stuff into the graveyard, and as much as the deck does interact with the graveyard it only really does so with cheap things that are going to be more profitable to get there from play. I can EOT Ad Nauseum and draw cards until I know I have too many to play in the turn and then stop. I think paying a little less than twice as much life is an alright trade for having it at instant speed.
I love Necro and run it in another deck, but it doesn't do what I want it to here.
Emperion is one card, and costs 8. It'd really just make things worse putting it in the deck.
And the main purpose of this thread wasn't "Should I be running AN" because I'm going to. I've weighed the risks and plan on doing so. I'm actually just curious what other people think you average life-per-card should be.
Absolutely fair. That's the main reason I've not utilized Necrologia more.
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Thanks, Heroes of The Planes! You guys are great!
Actual Truth:
"You heard it here folks:
Anyone who disagrees with "Jack from NC" is an idiot."-The Dead Weatherman
And the main purpose of this thread wasn't "Should I be running AN" because I'm going to. I've weighed the risks and plan on doing so. I'm actually just curious what other people think you average life-per-card should be.
As I said before, I wouldn't go above 2-3, and 3 is iffy. Ideally, 1-2 life is where you'd sit. If you go much higher, there are powerful efficient options that you could easily use instead.
Greed does a {b} and 2 life for a card for as long as you have resources, and I don't think I've seen it played in a very long time.
Skeletal Scrying (another sweet gem) is X life/mana for X cards at instant speed with some graveyard requirements.
These cards, Necrologia, MLB, and the suchlike impact whether Ad Nauseam is worthwhile; if you can pay less with any of these, you might as well play them instead of Ad Naus.
Though, I'll give Ad Nauseam this: you get to freely plow through lands. If you've got a land clump, Ad Naus says no problem, while the others still charge you a stock amount of life.
I think that most decks should run it. It does two things. First, it draws you a lot of cards. And if you die because of it it does the second thing: Teaches you fix your curve.
If you have a deck that gets hurt by Ad Naz it means you need a better deck.
Okay, that's a bit chest thumpy but it's true. The days of juggernaut EDH are about 4 year old and if people genuinely want to build good decks the Ad Naz test is a good one.
I think that most decks should run it. It does two things. First, it draws you a lot of cards. And if you die because of it it does the second thing: Teaches you fix your curve.
If you have a deck that gets hurt by Ad Naz it means you need a better deck.
Okay, that's a bit chest thumpy but it's true. The days of juggernaut EDH are about 4 year old and if people genuinely want to build good decks the Ad Naz test is a good one.
Haha, yeah. This is pretty true, though there are a few exceptions. Most notably if all the high end stuff is not intended to be hardcast. (Like reanimator)
That said, while the deck I'm working on passes the Ad Nauseum test easily, but it's far from a shining example of a good curve. I actually took a picture last night when I was working on it the curve is so bad. (The picture is fuzzy, but the curve is what's being shown so it doesn't matter too much.)
Yes that is Sorin's Vengeance, it's in there for giggles and will come out soon. And a lot of these cards are going to be replaced eventually, they're just in there to flesh out the deck slots.
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Check out the thread for my cube if you have the time, and tell me how terrible it is.
Generals meant to be drafted first in a single pack of 6 cards.
And here is the actual cube, meant to be drafted in 4 regular sized packs. (60 card decks)
The 6 slot looks pretty clogged with 3 and 4 being a bit thin, but that looks like a "maybe" kind of deck for Ad Naz.
Well there's a genuine reason for that. The deck is designed around low CMC's so everything is stacked on the front. And then five and six are when the splashy interactions with those cards, like sun titan and reveilark, start to emerge. The four drop spots suffer from no longer being able to interact with my deck based on CMC, but not being big enough effects to justify being there. It's just a really weird deck. I want to work down the six drop slot significantly and replace them with three or maybe a few more two drops. From playtesting, the only spot this deck really wants more of is three.
Six also suffers from being the cost of every wrath effect I want in the deck.
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Check out the thread for my cube if you have the time, and tell me how terrible it is.
Generals meant to be drafted first in a single pack of 6 cards.
And here is the actual cube, meant to be drafted in 4 regular sized packs. (60 card decks)
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So I've been building an interesting BW list around low CMC's and low power, and Ad Nauseum has been on the basically since it's inception. As soon as I finished my first draft of the deck the first thing I did was start flipping cards off the top as an Ad Nauseum test. After a few times doing that I did the math out and it matched my results. Every card is going to cost an average of slightly less than two life, and every nonland I draw is costing me three life. This seems absolutely reasonable to me, especially considering the deck has a healthy amount of auxiliary lifegain, but I'm curious how low this number would have to get for most people on this forum to think about playing Ad Nauseum.
So what are your thoughts on the matter? Because I'm thinking 15 life for a full grip at instant speed sounds perfectly fine.
Generals meant to be drafted first in a single pack of 6 cards.
And here is the actual cube, meant to be drafted in 4 regular sized packs. (60 card decks)
Just a high impact draw spell.
Generals meant to be drafted first in a single pack of 6 cards.
And here is the actual cube, meant to be drafted in 4 regular sized packs. (60 card decks)
Thanks to Heroes of the Plane for the awesome Sig.
Currently Playing- EDH
GGGOmnath, Locus of the LifestreamGGG
BBBShirei, Lord of PoniesBBB
UWRasputin Dreamweaver, Russia's Greatest Love MachineUW
UBWZur, Killer of FunUBW
UGWTreva, Princess of CanterlotUGW
RWTajic, Master of the Reverse BladeRW
RRRZirilan, How to Train Your DragonRRR
PDH Decks
Gelectrode
Ascended Lawmage
Blaze Commando
If your average is more than one or two, you can usually do quite well with Necrologia. The timing on Ad Naus is better, but you'll get a better ratio out of Necrologia.
Also, there's Promise of Power to consider if you're considering drawing around 5; if your average is around 1, Promise will get you the same number of cards, while having greater options (the entwine, or even just 5 mana for a flying demon can be clutch).
I don't think I'd want to play Ad Naus, Bob or Gatecrash Vampire Bob with an average of greater than two or three...
http://www.commandercast.com/category/articles/generally-speaking
Follow me on Twitter: @generalspeak
This. Ad Nauseam while insanely strong should be used as a "1 card combo" piece with the deck designed somewhat around it. It seems you are looking for something similar to Necropotence or Necrologia.
I think my AN deck has a average cost of 2.32 or something.
http://www.commandercast.com/category/articles/generally-speaking
Follow me on Twitter: @generalspeak
Agreed. Black FoF is underplayed (or still largely unknown, I can't tell).
Compare it to necro.
Necro is 1 life per card regardless of CMC but has a sharp drawback of discard = exile.
So let's look at AN in this light. How much is instant speed worth to you? How much is being able to draw without fear of discard -> exile worth to you? How many life will you be losing on average?
If your expected life loss per card is ~2 then I say it's a wash and AN is as good as necropotence (so it's really good). At >= 3 it becomes good but situational (i.e. you have to be mindful of your life total). In addition it also compares nicely to Moonlight Bargain (at the <= 2 life per card leve), which is cash in B and I hope you are using it.
What makes you think that's not in the deck already?
See, I knew that card existed, but the fact that it's an instant keeps leaking out of my head. I also need this card now.
Generals meant to be drafted first in a single pack of 6 cards.
And here is the actual cube, meant to be drafted in 4 regular sized packs. (60 card decks)
A super durdly deck that needs to compensate for the fact that I don't feel comfortable if I don't have the same draw power as I would playing blue.
Honestly though, it's really durdly on paper and because everything is very cheap I expect my hand to be being dumped very quickly very frequently, so more draw power seems good.
Generals meant to be drafted first in a single pack of 6 cards.
And here is the actual cube, meant to be drafted in 4 regular sized packs. (60 card decks)
MLB is probably under used because it does not have the word "draw" so when you search for black draw spells you miss it.
Actually due to its uniqueness but lack of extreme tournament pedigree, unless you've seen it or were rabidly obsessed with MTG back with Rav 1.0 I could see it definitely being a card that very few people are aware of.
Yeah, I only found it because I was on a random gatherer spree forever ago, and I realized that because ad nauseum doesn't have draw others like it might not and changed my search parameters accordingly.
Generals meant to be drafted first in a single pack of 6 cards.
And here is the actual cube, meant to be drafted in 4 regular sized packs. (60 card decks)
I only discovered MLB because an LGS near where I lived went under, and they were selling their remaining singles for next to nothing. I bought a ton indiscriminately, and discovered it in my spoils.
It lives in my Grimgrin deck, because of the mass reanimate options. It's fun to dig for one of the mass rez cards, but if you fail to find in the top five, you can pay some life to keep some mans.
http://www.commandercast.com/category/articles/generally-speaking
Follow me on Twitter: @generalspeak
Yeah, I think I'd actually put it in Jarad first though when/if I get a copy. Because then I can just take everything that isn't a creature.
Generals meant to be drafted first in a single pack of 6 cards.
And here is the actual cube, meant to be drafted in 4 regular sized packs. (60 card decks)
Have you considered Necrologia? You've probably mentioned it already (as you're a poster that typically does), but for a variety of reasons it might suite your needs better. I've tested AN/N extensively, and both have suitable places. AN is better for low CMC combo storm decks where the average CMC is 1-2.5 with a large percentage of cards being 1 or 0 CMC, so theoretically you're drawing something like 20+ cards for 15-20 life. N is better suited for very generalized applications where you want to draw a huge amount of cards for a flat rate, with ways of recuperating.
Personally, unless it's a storm-style build, go with N or even Necropotence.
Thanks, Heroes of The Planes! You guys are great!
Actual Truth:
EDH
My big problem with Necrologia is that it has a hard cap on how many cards I can realistically get out of it. Getting more than enough to fill your hand just puts stuff into the graveyard, and as much as the deck does interact with the graveyard it only really does so with cheap things that are going to be more profitable to get there from play. I can EOT Ad Nauseum and draw cards until I know I have too many to play in the turn and then stop. I think paying a little less than twice as much life is an alright trade for having it at instant speed.
I love Necro and run it in another deck, but it doesn't do what I want it to here.
Emperion is one card, and costs 8. It'd really just make things worse putting it in the deck.
And the main purpose of this thread wasn't "Should I be running AN" because I'm going to. I've weighed the risks and plan on doing so. I'm actually just curious what other people think you average life-per-card should be.
Generals meant to be drafted first in a single pack of 6 cards.
And here is the actual cube, meant to be drafted in 4 regular sized packs. (60 card decks)
Absolutely fair. That's the main reason I've not utilized Necrologia more.
Thanks, Heroes of The Planes! You guys are great!
Actual Truth:
As I said before, I wouldn't go above 2-3, and 3 is iffy. Ideally, 1-2 life is where you'd sit. If you go much higher, there are powerful efficient options that you could easily use instead.
Greed does a {b} and 2 life for a card for as long as you have resources, and I don't think I've seen it played in a very long time.
Skeletal Scrying (another sweet gem) is X life/mana for X cards at instant speed with some graveyard requirements.
These cards, Necrologia, MLB, and the suchlike impact whether Ad Nauseam is worthwhile; if you can pay less with any of these, you might as well play them instead of Ad Naus.
Though, I'll give Ad Nauseam this: you get to freely plow through lands. If you've got a land clump, Ad Naus says no problem, while the others still charge you a stock amount of life.
http://www.commandercast.com/category/articles/generally-speaking
Follow me on Twitter: @generalspeak
If you have a deck that gets hurt by Ad Naz it means you need a better deck.
Okay, that's a bit chest thumpy but it's true. The days of juggernaut EDH are about 4 year old and if people genuinely want to build good decks the Ad Naz test is a good one.
WUBRGPauper Battle BoxWUBRG ... and why I am not a fan of Wayne Reynolds' Illustrations.
Haha, yeah. This is pretty true, though there are a few exceptions. Most notably if all the high end stuff is not intended to be hardcast. (Like reanimator)
That said, while the deck I'm working on passes the Ad Nauseum test easily, but it's far from a shining example of a good curve. I actually took a picture last night when I was working on it the curve is so bad. (The picture is fuzzy, but the curve is what's being shown so it doesn't matter too much.)
Yes that is Sorin's Vengeance, it's in there for giggles and will come out soon. And a lot of these cards are going to be replaced eventually, they're just in there to flesh out the deck slots.
Generals meant to be drafted first in a single pack of 6 cards.
And here is the actual cube, meant to be drafted in 4 regular sized packs. (60 card decks)
WUBRGPauper Battle BoxWUBRG ... and why I am not a fan of Wayne Reynolds' Illustrations.
Well there's a genuine reason for that. The deck is designed around low CMC's so everything is stacked on the front. And then five and six are when the splashy interactions with those cards, like sun titan and reveilark, start to emerge. The four drop spots suffer from no longer being able to interact with my deck based on CMC, but not being big enough effects to justify being there. It's just a really weird deck. I want to work down the six drop slot significantly and replace them with three or maybe a few more two drops. From playtesting, the only spot this deck really wants more of is three.
Six also suffers from being the cost of every wrath effect I want in the deck.
Generals meant to be drafted first in a single pack of 6 cards.
And here is the actual cube, meant to be drafted in 4 regular sized packs. (60 card decks)