My playgroup plays STAX decks. A LOT of STAX decks. I don't know why, but it seems they all love the archetype. They're all great guys though, so I let them all get away with it, for the most part.
For some reason, I got it into my head the other day that I should do something about this. I played a Rising Waters deck way back in Nemesis that abused creatures that could tap for mana, and I thought it might be able to make the transition to EDH, as a deck to combat the other STAX decks. Typical STAX decks try their hardest to protect and rely on their mana artifacts instead of lands, but they don't pack too many creatures that can substitute as mana sources. I figured I could use that to my advantage.
The plan is to put out creatures that can tap for mana while the other players set up their stax effects. Then, when they blow up the lands, I'm still in a position to cast things, and I use this opportunity to take out their precious mana rocks. Even 1/1s can swing in for the win if they are unopposed, and Edric helps this idea well.
There are only 96 cards in the deck as of now, and I'm open to more suggestions that help the theme. Let me know what you've got.
Null Rod it up. You are planning on cutting out the lands from the equation, and if you cut out artifacts, you are in an amazing position. Also, graveyard hate? In addition, I feel Opposition may have a place.
Anyway, I think I'm the only one in my meta who plays stax (apparently in the suburbs of Portland they love stax... In the city NO!)
But playing mono red, my option is to blast boards, both dudes and land. I also will steal all your dudes. My point? I'd suggest maybe asceticism, or anything that gives mass protection.
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The EDH stax primer When you absolutely, positively got to kill every permanent in the room, accept no substitutes.
Like gal said, don't forget kill switch. Another null for never hurt.
It's not as good as Null Rod since it doesn't effect artifacts that come in after it's tapped and when you do untap it, the rest of your artifacts don't untap until the next go around. So, it's good for redundancy, but not quite as sneaky as a lot folks think and it requires the mana to perpetually keep things tapped if more stuff comes into play.
@Bio - With only 2 mana rocks in the deck and a ton of little mana derps it's supposed to outStax the other Stax decks by running a lot of artifact kill. It is, however, a really sad arms race that will ultimately end with someone running Mutavault, 10 draw spells, 40 counters, and 50 pokeon Blue energy cards. That deck would rock... and I am not being entirely sarcastic here.
with all those typical cards I'm using in Sharuum.
I might even use Null Rod, Killswitch, and varios artifact destruction since I'm going mana-creatures route like you are.
I agree on Opposition, that card will just win you the game if we can't deal with it.
Props on trying something new and totally unexpected from you. I am curious to see how awesome it will make our games and if it will make even more exciting.
I can't get over the fact that you two are both making decks to combat the "problem", when you both have the word Stax in your sigs. We all know what's really going on here.
Surging Chaos was discussing the merits of Molder Slug, and it being mentioned here as well gives me enough reason to give it a spot in the deck. Energy Flux also was a spot on suggestion, and I'll find a space for it, too. I'm not dead set on Kill Switch just yet, but since I've got the room, it's under heavy consideration.
The great thing about Opposition, is it can turn off manafacts, as well as tapping down the land everyone gets with Rising Waters. That pretty much takes care of the four cards, but I feel like I need at least a few more "land tapping down" effects, probably in blue. Not raw LD, since I'm relying on the meta to handle that for me, but tap downs are needed. If I get more suggestions, the mana rocks will be the first things to weed out.
Hey, if it makes the games more exciting, I'm all for it. I have to have something to use when all my mana is being taken away.
I laugh so hard whenever I read about your meta. I mean, minimum 5 slots of graveyard hate, always staxs, and now your trying to remain in staxs but be anti-staxs?
I'm going to laugh if you beverton guys every venture to the big city and play. Everyone here HATES stax. So much that, and this happened last night, someone blew up my genesis chamber when another player was tapped out with a pernicious deed. THEN, later he cracks that pernicious deed to kill my skull clamp. A SKULL CLAMP!
I draw so much hate it's funny. I loose, yet their terrible miss plays ends up loosing them the game.
Hate so thick it makes people stupid.
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The EDH stax primer When you absolutely, positively got to kill every permanent in the room, accept no substitutes.
Oh, don't lump me into the same category as the "Stax squad". I can't stand the archetype. This idea is pure reprisal in deck form, no more. However, I wouldn't dare ask anyone to change how they play, because my decks tend to be even more annoying than Stax decks.
Trust me, if I'm running either of my two pet decks (Confusion in the Ranks is worse with to back it up), you probably wouldn't want to play another game with me either.
Sigarda is fairly annoying. Very tough to deal with outside a Wrath effect. I will have to main deck hate for Sigarda in my list since she is a real problem to me.
Trust me, Philos, you'd be annoyed with playing with Biomech because chaos fair worse than Stax. Stax has a strategy, and chaos makes you re-think each play.
Portland people are the lucky ones that we don't go to Red Castle or Guardian ever. You'd hate our terrible games and you'd leave asking yourself, "How do they tolerate this?" Stax is fun!
Sigarda is fairly annoying. Very tough to deal with outside a Wrath effect. I will have to main deck hate for Sigarda in my list since she is a real problem to me.
Trust me, Philos, you'd be annoyed with playing with Biomech because chaos fair worse than Stax. Stax has a strategy, and chaos makes you re-think each play.
Portland people are the lucky ones that we don't go to Red Castle or Guardian ever. You'd hate our terrible games and you'd leave asking yourself, "How do they tolerate this?" Stax is fun!
Actually, I'd love it. Goodstuff.dec/$$$ gets boring, it's why I built my norin deck. I've built several weird stax/lock down/chaos builds and they usually win for a while before people just simply attack me first, always, and non stop. It would be refreshing if 6 dudes showed up with chaos and stax and just bent over everyone.
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
The EDH stax primer When you absolutely, positively got to kill every permanent in the room, accept no substitutes.
Actually, I'd love it. Goodstuff.dec/$$$ gets boring, it's why I built my norin deck. I've built several weird stax/lock down/chaos builds and they usually win for a while before people just simply attack me first, always, and non stop. It would be refreshing if 6 dudes showed up with chaos and stax and just bent over everyone.
I don't like winning like that to be honest. I'd rather win in a cool way instead of land destruction and Salvaging Station lock. Lots of complains that, I have no win condition besides Lilian of the Veil and Salvaging Station.
People who aren't prepared for the Stax, will just complain or play it through, so they can adjust for other strategies. Most cases, they will just complain and never adapt
I agree, Goodstuff.dec is terrible, but it's what 95% of the Red Castle and Guardian meta if my memory serves me right. It's about time that people learn that goodstuff.dec isn't the way to go. Those people who choose to consistently run Goodstuff.dec ruin the format, not Stax or control or combo decks. They have strategy or originality in anyway unlike goodstuff.dec.
I don't like winning like that to be honest. I'd rather win in a cool way instead of land destruction and Salvaging Station lock. Lots of complains that, I have no win condition besides Lilian of the Veil and Salvaging Station.
People who aren't prepared for the Stax, will just complain or play it through, so they can adjust for other strategies.
I agree, Goodstuff.dec is terrible, but it's what 95% of the Red Castle and Guardian meta if my memory serves me right. It's about time that people learn that goodstuff.dec isn't the way to go. Those people who choose to consistently run Goodstuff.dec ruin the format, not Stax or control or combo decks. They have strategy or originality in anyway unlike those 3 very popular strategies I've mention.
The meta hasn't changed. It's still derp; play green in everything so you can tooth and nail. Some people have drifted away from that, mainly my core play squad, but yeah it's still goodstuff.dec all day 24-7 we never close.
I always try to un derp it up (I do have one goodstuff deck if I mindlessly want to play cards... And even that deck has several combos. Im playing to win, not showcase how much money cards I have) to me seeing how well of a player you are and how good and creative you are needs a game state that isn't typical, different every time, and doesn't just involve who gets to 9 mana first wins.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
The EDH stax primer When you absolutely, positively got to kill every permanent in the room, accept no substitutes.
The meta hasn't changed. It's still derp; play green in everything so you can tooth and nail. Some people have drifted away from that, mainly my core play squad, but yeah it's still goodstuff.dec all day 24-7 we never close.
I always try to un derp it up (I do have one goodstuff deck if I mindlessly want to play cards... And even that deck has several combos. Im playing to win, not showcase how much money cards I have) to me seeing how well of a player you are and how good and creative you are needs a game state that isn't typical, different every time, and doesn't just involve who gets to 9 mana first wins.
I dislike normal strategy because this format wasn't invented for boring, lame, uninvented decks like Tooth and Nail or Time Stretch race.
If I wanted to play the same game, I'd play legacy, and bring back my R/B Goblin deck, TEPS, and Stax or even my "casual" Elves that splash 4 colours for tutors.
As we've said before, I just love Stax because it just a different approach to control. People tend to forget Stax is permanent based control instead of spell based control.
Good luck on making Red Castle and Guardian evolved their meta into something slightly more exciting.
To be honest, I'm not that good of a player, I just play with amazing cards. Curving out your Edh decks, having a low average cmc, and using really expensive cards really help. I just hear that I am good player. Hah, ha, ha.
Stax decks require a lot of money cards if you decide to use blue or black. EDH gets quite expensive regardless of what your strategy is.
Oh, don't lump me into the same category as the "Stax squad". I can't stand the archetype. This idea is pure reprisal in deck form, no more. However, I wouldn't dare ask anyone to change how they play, because my decks tend to be even more annoying than Stax decks.
Trust me, if I'm running either of my two pet decks (Confusion in the Ranks is worse with to back it up), you probably wouldn't want to play another game with me either.
No, but Sigarda is showing up a lot as of late. I can't run her in this :symu::symg: build, though. I'd do that in a heartbeat.
A few anti-stax cards I love:
1) Black Market - when everyone's hating on lands to combat the goodstuff, and now artifacts to combat the stax, run a mana producing enchantment. It's doubly good against stax in light of the fact that it cares about all these creatures being sacrificed.
2) Predatory Advantage - No one's playing anything because some bumpkin blew up the mana? Well, looks like I have fuel for a Smokestack at 3. No smokestack on the board? Even better. 6 power of free creatures every turn.
3) Life from the Loam/Crucible + Exploration/Azusa/etc (hard to fail with PrimeTime too) - If I'm playing tons of lands per turn and have a consistent way to get them back, I can feel free to sac lands to the sac effects all day. Crucible + Khalni Garden stands up to a Smokestack at 2. And if no sac effects on the board, coming out with mana ramp at breakneck speed is universally good. Against the grave hate, let them exile a few lands. As long as you don't leave your LftL in the yard for too long, you're good, and Top is good at that. Also, just pack plenty of tutors to hit the right things. In Blue, I recommend Muddle the Mixture, Tezzeret, and of course Intution.
4) Jokulhaups, Obliterate - mana cost on these can be kind of steep if stax gets a good draw, but just be sure your ramp package is good enough (i.e. something better than cliche Cultivate and crew). And provided you have anti-stax things like Black Market, Predatory Advantage, etc in your deck, you blow up every mana source they have, all the stax cards they have, then by design you have most of the functionality of your deck intact. Unlike stax effects also, these give you the luxury of being able to catch up after a poor draw, preping your hand and board for the epic reset. Fight fire with an atomic bomb.
Not all of these fit in Edric, of course, but if you're set on that deck maybe it belongs in the decklists subforum.
I dislike normal strategy because this format wasn't invented for boring, lame, uninvented decks like Tooth and Nail or Time Stretch race.
If I wanted to play the same game, I'd play legacy, and bring back my R/B Goblin deck, TEPS, and Stax or even my "casual" Elves that splash 4 colours for tutors.
As we've said before, I just love Stax because it just a different approach to control. People tend to forget Stax is permanent based control instead of spell based control.
Good luck on making Red Castle and Guardian evolved their meta into something slightly more exciting.
To be honest, I'm not that good of a player, I just play with amazing cards. Curving out your Edh decks, having a low average cmc, and using really expensive cards really help. I just hear that I am good player. Hah, ha, ha.
Stax decks require a lot of money cards if you decide to use blue or black. EDH gets quite expensive regardless of what your strategy is.
My norin deck is a relatively cheap stax variant. It also got a lota help with AVR with rite of ruin, zealous conscripts, and Tyrant of discord. But I like how it is very unconventional, yet still doing what a stax deck does... Just differently. Norin steals your dudes with confusion out, sack stolen dude to pyrexian altar.
Ooooh, that reminds me, I need a dust bowl so I can do the same thing with zealous conscripts and land!
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
The EDH stax primer When you absolutely, positively got to kill every permanent in the room, accept no substitutes.
My norin deck is a relatively cheap stax variant. It also got abuts help with AVR with rite of ruin, zealous conscripts, and Tyrant of discord. But, like how it is very unconventional, yet still doing what a stax deck does... Just differently. Norin steals your dudes with confusion out, sack stolen dude to pyrexian altar.
Ooooh, that reminds me, I need a dust bowl so I can do the same thing with zealous conscripts and land!
For some reason, I got it into my head the other day that I should do something about this. I played a Rising Waters deck way back in Nemesis that abused creatures that could tap for mana, and I thought it might be able to make the transition to EDH, as a deck to combat the other STAX decks. Typical STAX decks try their hardest to protect and rely on their mana artifacts instead of lands, but they don't pack too many creatures that can substitute as mana sources. I figured I could use that to my advantage.
1 Edric, Spymaster of Trest
Creatures (32)
1 Acidic Slime
1 Birds of Paradise
1 Bloom Tender
1 Citanul Heirophants
1 Devoted Druid
1 Elvish Aberration
1 Elvish Archdruid
1 Elvish Harbinger
1 Fyndhorn Elder
1 Greenweaver Druid
1 Harabaz Druid
1 Heart Warden
1 Leaf Gilder
1 Llanowar Elves
1 Nullmage Shepherd
1 Nantuko Elder
1 Oracle of Mul Daya
1 Orochi Sustainer
1 Primeval Titan
1 Quirion Elves
1 Sachi, Daughter of Seshiro
1 Seedborn Muse
1 Somberwald Sage
1 Sundering Titan
1 Terastodon
1 Thada Adel, Acquisitor
1 Trygon Predator
1 Utopia Tree
1 Viridian Corrupter
1 Vorinclex, Voice of Hunger
1 Wirewood Channeler
1 Wirewood Elf
1 Creeping Corrosion
1 Cultivate
1 Explosive Vegetation
1 Gleeful Sabotage
1 Kodama’s Reach
1 Krosan Grip
1 Naturalize
1 Nature’s Claim
1 Rain of Thorns
1 Relic Crush
1 Skyshroud Claim
1 Sunder
Enchantments (06)
1 Frozen Aether
1 Mana Breach
1 Mana Vortex
1 Rising Waters
1 Stasis
1 Sunken Hope
Artifacts (08)
1 Darksteel Ingot
1 Everflowing Chalice
1 Gilded Lotus
1 Simic Signet
1 Sol Ring
1 Static Orb
1 Thran Dynamo
1 Winter Orb
38 Various Islandy, Forest-ish stuff
The plan is to put out creatures that can tap for mana while the other players set up their stax effects. Then, when they blow up the lands, I'm still in a position to cast things, and I use this opportunity to take out their precious mana rocks. Even 1/1s can swing in for the win if they are unopposed, and Edric helps this idea well.
There are only 96 cards in the deck as of now, and I'm open to more suggestions that help the theme. Let me know what you've got.
Currently playing
Nath of The Gilt-Leaf
Teysa, Orzhov Scion
Ghave packs:
It is the most "meta-specific" deck I have ever made.
WUBRGPauper Battle BoxWUBRG ... and why I am not a fan of Wayne Reynolds' Illustrations.
Anyway, I think I'm the only one in my meta who plays stax (apparently in the suburbs of Portland they love stax... In the city NO!)
But playing mono red, my option is to blast boards, both dudes and land. I also will steal all your dudes. My point? I'd suggest maybe asceticism, or anything that gives mass protection.
The EDH stax primer
When you absolutely, positively got to kill every permanent in the room, accept no substitutes.
And which of your own multiple STAX decks do you plan on using this anti-STAX deck against? Planning on teching against yourself?
Null Rod is going in, definitely. I agree about moving the mana rocks, they were shifty adds in the first place, considering.
It's not as good as Null Rod since it doesn't effect artifacts that come in after it's tapped and when you do untap it, the rest of your artifacts don't untap until the next go around. So, it's good for redundancy, but not quite as sneaky as a lot folks think and it requires the mana to perpetually keep things tapped if more stuff comes into play.
@Bio - With only 2 mana rocks in the deck and a ton of little mana derps it's supposed to outStax the other Stax decks by running a lot of artifact kill. It is, however, a really sad arms race that will ultimately end with someone running Mutavault, 10 draw spells, 40 counters, and 50 pokeon Blue energy cards. That deck would rock... and I am not being entirely sarcastic here.
@Phil - Yeah. Scary eh?
WUBRGPauper Battle BoxWUBRG ... and why I am not a fan of Wayne Reynolds' Illustrations.
I'm already a step head of both of you two, Galspanic, and Biomech. My goal is to make Glissa, the Traitor beat you guys.
with all those typical cards I'm using in Sharuum.
I might even use Null Rod, Killswitch, and varios artifact destruction since I'm going mana-creatures route like you are.
I agree on Opposition, that card will just win you the game if we can't deal with it.
Props on trying something new and totally unexpected from you. I am curious to see how awesome it will make our games and if it will make even more exciting.
EDH
BWG Doran Suicide Tempo BWG
BUW Sharuum Midrange Control BUW
Surging Chaos was discussing the merits of Molder Slug, and it being mentioned here as well gives me enough reason to give it a spot in the deck. Energy Flux also was a spot on suggestion, and I'll find a space for it, too. I'm not dead set on Kill Switch just yet, but since I've got the room, it's under heavy consideration.
The great thing about Opposition, is it can turn off manafacts, as well as tapping down the land everyone gets with Rising Waters. That pretty much takes care of the four cards, but I feel like I need at least a few more "land tapping down" effects, probably in blue. Not raw LD, since I'm relying on the meta to handle that for me, but tap downs are needed. If I get more suggestions, the mana rocks will be the first things to weed out.
Hey, if it makes the games more exciting, I'm all for it. I have to have something to use when all my mana is being taken away.
Priceless.
I draw so much hate it's funny. I loose, yet their terrible miss plays ends up loosing them the game.
Hate so thick it makes people stupid.
The EDH stax primer
When you absolutely, positively got to kill every permanent in the room, accept no substitutes.
Trust me, if I'm running either of my two pet decks (Confusion in the Ranks is worse with to back it up), you probably wouldn't want to play another game with me either.
No, but Sigarda is showing up a lot as of late. I can't run her in this :symu::symg: build, though. I'd do that in a heartbeat.
What? It stops Smokestack with 5 counters on it.
Trust me, Philos, you'd be annoyed with playing with Biomech because chaos fair worse than Stax. Stax has a strategy, and chaos makes you re-think each play.
Portland people are the lucky ones that we don't go to Red Castle or Guardian ever. You'd hate our terrible games and you'd leave asking yourself, "How do they tolerate this?" Stax is fun!
EDH
BWG Doran Suicide Tempo BWG
BUW Sharuum Midrange Control BUW
Actually, I'd love it. Goodstuff.dec/$$$ gets boring, it's why I built my norin deck. I've built several weird stax/lock down/chaos builds and they usually win for a while before people just simply attack me first, always, and non stop. It would be refreshing if 6 dudes showed up with chaos and stax and just bent over everyone.
The EDH stax primer
When you absolutely, positively got to kill every permanent in the room, accept no substitutes.
I don't like winning like that to be honest. I'd rather win in a cool way instead of land destruction and Salvaging Station lock. Lots of complains that, I have no win condition besides Lilian of the Veil and Salvaging Station.
People who aren't prepared for the Stax, will just complain or play it through, so they can adjust for other strategies. Most cases, they will just complain and never adapt
I agree, Goodstuff.dec is terrible, but it's what 95% of the Red Castle and Guardian meta if my memory serves me right. It's about time that people learn that goodstuff.dec isn't the way to go. Those people who choose to consistently run Goodstuff.dec ruin the format, not Stax or control or combo decks. They have strategy or originality in anyway unlike goodstuff.dec.
EDH
BWG Doran Suicide Tempo BWG
BUW Sharuum Midrange Control BUW
The meta hasn't changed. It's still derp; play green in everything so you can tooth and nail. Some people have drifted away from that, mainly my core play squad, but yeah it's still goodstuff.dec all day 24-7 we never close.
I always try to un derp it up (I do have one goodstuff deck if I mindlessly want to play cards... And even that deck has several combos. Im playing to win, not showcase how much money cards I have) to me seeing how well of a player you are and how good and creative you are needs a game state that isn't typical, different every time, and doesn't just involve who gets to 9 mana first wins.
The EDH stax primer
When you absolutely, positively got to kill every permanent in the room, accept no substitutes.
I dislike normal strategy because this format wasn't invented for boring, lame, uninvented decks like Tooth and Nail or Time Stretch race.
If I wanted to play the same game, I'd play legacy, and bring back my R/B Goblin deck, TEPS, and Stax or even my "casual" Elves that splash 4 colours for tutors.
As we've said before, I just love Stax because it just a different approach to control. People tend to forget Stax is permanent based control instead of spell based control.
Good luck on making Red Castle and Guardian evolved their meta into something slightly more exciting.
To be honest, I'm not that good of a player, I just play with amazing cards. Curving out your Edh decks, having a low average cmc, and using really expensive cards really help. I just hear that I am good player. Hah, ha, ha.
Stax decks require a lot of money cards if you decide to use blue or black. EDH gets quite expensive regardless of what your strategy is.
EDH
BWG Doran Suicide Tempo BWG
BUW Sharuum Midrange Control BUW
A few anti-stax cards I love:
1) Black Market - when everyone's hating on lands to combat the goodstuff, and now artifacts to combat the stax, run a mana producing enchantment. It's doubly good against stax in light of the fact that it cares about all these creatures being sacrificed.
2) Predatory Advantage - No one's playing anything because some bumpkin blew up the mana? Well, looks like I have fuel for a Smokestack at 3. No smokestack on the board? Even better. 6 power of free creatures every turn.
3) Life from the Loam/Crucible + Exploration/Azusa/etc (hard to fail with PrimeTime too) - If I'm playing tons of lands per turn and have a consistent way to get them back, I can feel free to sac lands to the sac effects all day. Crucible + Khalni Garden stands up to a Smokestack at 2. And if no sac effects on the board, coming out with mana ramp at breakneck speed is universally good. Against the grave hate, let them exile a few lands. As long as you don't leave your LftL in the yard for too long, you're good, and Top is good at that. Also, just pack plenty of tutors to hit the right things. In Blue, I recommend Muddle the Mixture, Tezzeret, and of course Intution.
4) Jokulhaups, Obliterate - mana cost on these can be kind of steep if stax gets a good draw, but just be sure your ramp package is good enough (i.e. something better than cliche Cultivate and crew). And provided you have anti-stax things like Black Market, Predatory Advantage, etc in your deck, you blow up every mana source they have, all the stax cards they have, then by design you have most of the functionality of your deck intact. Unlike stax effects also, these give you the luxury of being able to catch up after a poor draw, preping your hand and board for the epic reset. Fight fire with an atomic bomb.
Not all of these fit in Edric, of course, but if you're set on that deck maybe it belongs in the decklists subforum.
My norin deck is a relatively cheap stax variant. It also got a lota help with AVR with rite of ruin, zealous conscripts, and Tyrant of discord. But I like how it is very unconventional, yet still doing what a stax deck does... Just differently. Norin steals your dudes with confusion out, sack stolen dude to pyrexian altar.
Ooooh, that reminds me, I need a dust bowl so I can do the same thing with zealous conscripts and land!
The EDH stax primer
When you absolutely, positively got to kill every permanent in the room, accept no substitutes.
I haven't invested too much money into my decks that I've posted on here. Ironically, I had most the cards before I started Edh. The heavy hitters, I got for reletively cheap like Dark Confidant, Crucible of Worlds, Underground Sea, Scrubland, Wasteland, Intuition, Polluted Delta, Flooded Strand.
I guess I got lucky. :P.
I mean, who can pass up a $4 Crucible of Worlds?
EDH
BWG Doran Suicide Tempo BWG
BUW Sharuum Midrange Control BUW