What's your thoughts on this in Kaalia builds? Win more or possible staple?
absolutely not. Kaalia is not a lifegain deck, nor is it playing any kind of tokens, so the pumps are pretty negligible. this won't be getting anywhere near my kaalia deck
absolutely not. Kaalia is not a lifegain deck, nor is it playing any kind of tokens, so the pumps are pretty negligible. this won't be getting anywhere near my kaalia deck
Do you run shocks, crypt, fetches, etc..? Do you ever run low on life? Baneslayer and vault of the archangel sometimes aren't enough when your being ganged up on. This card alone makes everything bigger, even kaalia. My version has a lot of double strike/mass land destruction. She could be deadly with just her alone on the field with no lands.
Do you run shocks, crypt, fetches, etc..? Do you ever run low on life? Baneslayer and vault of the archangel sometimes aren't enough when your being ganged up on. This card alone makes everything bigger, even kaalia. My version has a lot of double strike/mass land destruction. She could be deadly with just her alone on the field with no lands.
i run shocks and painlands, hall of the bandit lord and city of brass. yes i do sometimes run low on life, when i start killing myself with my own lands. Baneslayer, vault, true conviction, along with a multitude of tutors do enough work in my deck, that I don't have to add a situational +1/+1 counters creature for lifegain.
And lets just take a moment to consider here the value of archangel of thune: unless you are overextending something gross, then with kaalia, you probably shouldn't have more than 3 or 4 (kaalia included) creatures in play at once - I might allow an exception for avacyn. However, with 3 being the current and archangel of thune in hand, you get a net gain of 4 +1/+1 counters AFTER damage is dealt. You get 3 life from the archangel's lifegain.
Now please, point me to where this is a value creature in a deck full of some of the strongest creatures in the whole of Magic: The Gathering. We have Avacyn, Iona, Rakdos, Scourge of Kher Ridges, Balefire Dragon to name but a few. You want to make room for a card that puts a couple of +1/+1 counters on something? Be my guest, but don't bring that thing anywhere near my Kaalia deck
When you look at most people's Kaalia decks almost everyone runs Baneslayer Angel almost solely because it gains you life. Sure it's a good beater but in a deck like Kaalia it's far from being an all star in terms of damage. People run Baneslayer almost solely for the life gain. I think this just might be the other life gain card that kaalia needs to help nullify all the residual damage. The counters it puts on kaalia are nothing to scoff at either. Kaalia is an aggressive general and any extra little bit of damage you can get out their is certainly worth it.
Unfortunately every try hard from Sacramento to Shanghai preaches from the top of their 27 lands + Mana Reflection that Tooth and Nail and Time Stretch are fine to play in the same turn but Armageddon is unfair.
It's a pretty incredible creature for Kaalia for a number of reasons. The first of which being that even with just itself and Kaalia, it's gonna make itself a 4/5 and Kaalia a 3/3 on one swing. This is a pretty good benefit in and of itself, and it gets better the more it gets to swing. Additionally it's a pretty sweet threat at only five cmc so it is yet another card that we don't have to rely on Kaalia to be able to put down onto the battlefield. Those are both enough reasons for me to play it.
But hey. I'm only speaking on behalf of my 1v1 Primer so...
It's a pretty incredible creature for Kaalia for a number of reasons. The first of which being that even with just itself and Kaalia, it's gonna make itself a 4/5 and Kaalia a 3/3 on one swing. This is a pretty good benefit in and of itself, and it gets better the more it gets to swing. Additionally it's a pretty sweet threat at only five cmc so it is yet another card that we don't have to rely on Kaalia to be able to put down onto the battlefield. Those are both enough reasons for me to play it.
But hey. I'm only speaking on behalf of my 1v1 Primer so...
Your seeing it exactly how I am. In my kaalia deck I have about 15 creatures that are pretty much solely crapped onto the field with Kaalia. I also have about 6 creatures that are angels/demons/dragons but I would not normally pop out with Kaalia unless I had to. This angel would fall into that category of the deck. It's not a weak creature by any means and it does make Kaalia more of a threat. And if they waste removal on the angel over Kaalia, well that's even better.
And if they waste removal on the angel over Kaalia, well that's even better.
Unless you regularly play against mentally challenged opponents, I'd hope it a rare thing that anyone given a choice would target removal at Archangel of Thune over Kaalia.
That said, I would think whether or not the Archangel rates a spot in the deck is going to be a matter of meta and specific build.
Unless you regularly play against mentally challenged opponents, I'd hope it a rare thing that anyone given a choice would target removal at Archangel of Thune over Kaalia.
That said, I would think whether or not the Archangel rates a spot in the deck is going to be a matter of meta and specific build.
There is always that guy who's more focused at the threats at hand than the possible threats that are to come. I've watched a lot of people kill someone's fatty over Kaalia. It all just depends on the board position.
Example:
Opponent is swinging at you with Kaalia. Pops out archangel of thune. He has no more cards in hand and you have a path to exile. You still gonna kill that Kaalia?
That Kaalia player won't always have a threat in their hand.
To me she seems like like a good addition to the "I'm an awesome demon/dragon/angel that can be reasonably cast but still cool to drop with Kaaila" Every time I play Kaaila someone is always like "herp derp kill Kaaila and he's out of the game" When you have stuff like Archangel of ThuneBaneslayer Angel, Thundermaw Hellkite, Bloodgift Demon you can just hard cast these guys and keep playing. I've been trying to actively lower my Kaaila curve and reliance on Kaaila and guys like Archangel of Thune help
There is always that guy who's more focused at the threats at hand than the possible threats that are to come. I've watched a lot of people kill someone's fatty over Kaalia. It all just depends on the board position.
Example:
Opponent is swinging at you with Kaalia. Pops out archangel of thune. He has no more cards in hand and you have a path to exile. You still gonna kill that Kaalia?
That Kaalia player won't always have a threat in their hand.
I'd still kill Kallia. As long as I won't die the next turn I'll always go for Kaalia. What If I target the Archangel and then next turn a Rakdos comes out? and wait a sec If I had a path to exile I'd use it before Kaalia even declared her attack. Shes too dangerous to let her attack, even though it could hit someone else.
I'd still kill Kallia. As long as I won't die the next turn I'll always go for Kaalia. What If I target the Archangel and then next turn a Rakdos comes out? and wait a sec If I had a path to exile I'd use it before Kaalia even declared her attack. Shes too dangerous to let her attack, even though it could hit someone else.
I'd argue the correct play here is to hold the Path for the Rakdos you seem to expect. Kaalia, on her own, isn't the threat -- it's what she brings out that is. And if you think that spending that Path on my commander is a good play (it isn't, because I would likely play my commander again next turn thanks to the extra basic you just gave me) I am not opposed to hardcasting Rakdos and sending him at your face the hard way -- which works well, since you just spent that Path to Exile on my four mana 2/2 flyer.
Baneslayer isn't good enough for a lot of builds of Kaalia, I don't see this making many builds unless the person has budget constraints, as this will be a cheap card after a while.
I also play Weiss Schwarz, Chaos, Vanguard and Wixoss.
Weiss Schwarz Sets
Accel World, Angel Beats, Familiar of Zero, Gargantia on the Verdurous Planet, Guilty Crown, Kill La Kill, Robotics;Notes, Sword Art Online.
Chaos Partners
Arpeggio of Blue Steel: Iona, Kirishima, Kongou.
Dangan Ronpa: Asahina, Togami.
Freezing: Vibration: Chiffon, Satelizer.
Vanguard Clans Favoured
Angel Feather, Dark Irregulars, Genesis, Neonecter, Pale Moon, Shadow Paladins, Tachikaze.
I'd argue the correct play here is to hold the Path for the Rakdos you seem to expect. Kaalia, on her own, isn't the threat -- it's what she brings out that is. And if you think that spending that Path on my commander is a good play (it isn't, because I would likely play my commander again next turn thanks to the extra basic you just gave me) I am not opposed to hardcasting Rakdos and sending him at your face the hard way -- which works well, since you just spent that Path to Exile on my four mana 2/2 flyer.
But when you can only play one Baneslayer, redundancy is a factour.
What if the creature they are going to drop isn't rakdos? What if it's angel of despair? It would be too late to path it at that point.
What if the creature they are going to drop isn't rakdos? What if it's angel of despair? It would be too late to path it at that point.
3drinks does have a valid point. And so does Vic, in response to my earlier comment. There will indeed be times when hitting Kaalia doesn't gain you that much, or turns out to be the wrong move. This is very likely to be the case if you're messing with Kaalia when her player is already at 7+ mana.
That said, having played a lot against several different Kaalia decks, I've still found that while things will occasionally play out differently in a given game, the best strategy across lots of matches against Kaalia is to take her out quickly and repeatedly, until such point as she is either tucked or has been killed enough times that it is no longer cost-effective to keep casting her. By that point the Kaalia player will indeed be able to hardcast many of the big beasties, but then you're down to just another EDH game, in which threats are cast and answered. The Kaalia player will still be able to get and keep a board presence due to things like Baneslayer Angel and Thundermaw Hellkite, closely followed by things like Rune-Scarred Demon and Avacyn, but the she won't be as overwhelming if she's not casting those things several turns earlier.
What makes Kaalia dangerous is her capacity to get a couple ridiculous threats out early enough that by the time they're neutralized, the Kaalia player is already in a pretty commanding lead, plus the possibility that if the Kaalia player then casts Armageddon, there won't be much chance of her opponents neutralizing the threats at all. The best bet to win against Kaalia is to keep that from happening.
Baneslayer isn't good enough for a lot of builds of Kaalia, I don't see this making many builds unless the person has budget constraints, as this will be a cheap card after a while.
Lolwut? That's just not true at all...until a better Baneslayer comes out (lol yeah right) BSA will always be a cheap and respectable threat that controls the skies very well.
What if the creature they are going to drop isn't rakdos? What if it's angel of despair? It would be too late to path it at that point.
So it's just a Vindicate and a 5/5 flyer. Oh noes you lost one card. Whatever will you do?
Seriously, this isn't that big of an impact play so as to completely throw off a game. A Rune-scarred, then maybe we're talking -- but the deck is in B anyway, so that's just yet another tutour, Master of Cruelties and Sire of Insanity are relevant here...but that could be dealt with just as easily as the Kaalia you were aiming the Path to Exile at.
Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
Those all cost six plus CMC. This doesn't. Contrary to popular belief, mana curves matter in Commander just as much as they do in the other formats too.
Those all cost six plus CMC. This doesn't. Contrary to popular belief, mana curves matter in Commander just as much as they do in the other formats too.
It's funny, besides flopitout the majority of Kaalia players see why she's good while the non-Kaalia players think she's a waste. Well I ordered a foil one for my deck, I think she is gonna be good and I think she's just what Kaalia needs, this deck already kills itself. It needs more lifegain.
Those all cost six plus CMC. This doesn't. Contrary to popular belief, mana curves matter in Commander just as much as they do in the other formats too.
And what's the point of getting something for free if you don't abuse it? I mean, Kaalia's no Tolarian Academy or even a Vault of Whispers, but she's certainly abusable in her own way.
Seriously, though, looking at Kaalia builds, here's what I've found that handles lifegain more efficiently, and not just BSA:
Basilisk Collar: The cheapest source of lifelink besides auras.
True Conviction: A bit overcosted, and too heavily white in a wedge that generally doesn't get mana fixers. But if your build is heavy on multicolor lands, it's possible. Plus, Rakdos kingmaker: "Not playing demons? Yeah, just pop 3/4 of your permanents now."
Vault of Whispers: The pro is that it also provides deathtouch, like the collar. The con is that you have to pay mana every turn.
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Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
What's your thoughts on this in Kaalia builds? Win more or possible staple?
Numot - Retired
absolutely not. Kaalia is not a lifegain deck, nor is it playing any kind of tokens, so the pumps are pretty negligible. this won't be getting anywhere near my kaalia deck
Niv-Mizzet Ramp 'n' Wheel
Godo: Strap him up and turn him sideways!
--- Meren of Clan Nel Toth --- Jhoira of the Ghitu --- Prime Speaker Zegana ---
--- Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief --- Ghoulcaller Gisa --- Akroma, Angel of Fury --- Titania, Protector of Argoth ---
Do you run shocks, crypt, fetches, etc..? Do you ever run low on life? Baneslayer and vault of the archangel sometimes aren't enough when your being ganged up on. This card alone makes everything bigger, even kaalia. My version has a lot of double strike/mass land destruction. She could be deadly with just her alone on the field with no lands.
Numot - Retired
i run shocks and painlands, hall of the bandit lord and city of brass. yes i do sometimes run low on life, when i start killing myself with my own lands. Baneslayer, vault, true conviction, along with a multitude of tutors do enough work in my deck, that I don't have to add a situational +1/+1 counters creature for lifegain.
And lets just take a moment to consider here the value of archangel of thune: unless you are overextending something gross, then with kaalia, you probably shouldn't have more than 3 or 4 (kaalia included) creatures in play at once - I might allow an exception for avacyn. However, with 3 being the current and archangel of thune in hand, you get a net gain of 4 +1/+1 counters AFTER damage is dealt. You get 3 life from the archangel's lifegain.
Now please, point me to where this is a value creature in a deck full of some of the strongest creatures in the whole of Magic: The Gathering. We have Avacyn, Iona, Rakdos, Scourge of Kher Ridges, Balefire Dragon to name but a few. You want to make room for a card that puts a couple of +1/+1 counters on something? Be my guest, but don't bring that thing anywhere near my Kaalia deck
Niv-Mizzet Ramp 'n' Wheel
Godo: Strap him up and turn him sideways!
When you look at most people's Kaalia decks almost everyone runs Baneslayer Angel almost solely because it gains you life. Sure it's a good beater but in a deck like Kaalia it's far from being an all star in terms of damage. People run Baneslayer almost solely for the life gain. I think this just might be the other life gain card that kaalia needs to help nullify all the residual damage. The counters it puts on kaalia are nothing to scoff at either. Kaalia is an aggressive general and any extra little bit of damage you can get out their is certainly worth it.
Thanks Argentleman;)
WB Teysa token aggroBW (retired)
MAKING (Onmath, Numot, maybe something in Esper)
But hey. I'm only speaking on behalf of my 1v1 Primer so...
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
Your seeing it exactly how I am. In my kaalia deck I have about 15 creatures that are pretty much solely crapped onto the field with Kaalia. I also have about 6 creatures that are angels/demons/dragons but I would not normally pop out with Kaalia unless I had to. This angel would fall into that category of the deck. It's not a weak creature by any means and it does make Kaalia more of a threat. And if they waste removal on the angel over Kaalia, well that's even better.
Numot - Retired
Unless you regularly play against mentally challenged opponents, I'd hope it a rare thing that anyone given a choice would target removal at Archangel of Thune over Kaalia.
That said, I would think whether or not the Archangel rates a spot in the deck is going to be a matter of meta and specific build.
There is always that guy who's more focused at the threats at hand than the possible threats that are to come. I've watched a lot of people kill someone's fatty over Kaalia. It all just depends on the board position.
Example:
Opponent is swinging at you with Kaalia. Pops out archangel of thune. He has no more cards in hand and you have a path to exile. You still gonna kill that Kaalia?
That Kaalia player won't always have a threat in their hand.
Numot - Retired
To me she seems like like a good addition to the "I'm an awesome demon/dragon/angel that can be reasonably cast but still cool to drop with Kaaila" Every time I play Kaaila someone is always like "herp derp kill Kaaila and he's out of the game" When you have stuff like Archangel of Thune Baneslayer Angel, Thundermaw Hellkite, Bloodgift Demon you can just hard cast these guys and keep playing. I've been trying to actively lower my Kaaila curve and reliance on Kaaila and guys like Archangel of Thune help
I'd still kill Kallia. As long as I won't die the next turn I'll always go for Kaalia. What If I target the Archangel and then next turn a Rakdos comes out? and wait a sec If I had a path to exile I'd use it before Kaalia even declared her attack. Shes too dangerous to let her attack, even though it could hit someone else.
My Saffi deck
BBB Two Hundred Zombies BBB
Duel Commander
WR Tajic, Wrath of the Manlands RW
BGW Doran Destruction WGB
Commander
GUB Mimeoplasm, Screw Politics BUG
BR Mogis, God of Slaughter RB
RGW Marath, Ramp and Removal WGR
WUBRG Karona, Jank God GRBUW
I'd argue the correct play here is to hold the Path for the Rakdos you seem to expect. Kaalia, on her own, isn't the threat -- it's what she brings out that is. And if you think that spending that Path on my commander is a good play (it isn't, because I would likely play my commander again next turn thanks to the extra basic you just gave me) I am not opposed to hardcasting Rakdos and sending him at your face the hard way -- which works well, since you just spent that Path to Exile on my four mana 2/2 flyer.
But when you can only play one Baneslayer, redundancy is a factour.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
Main Decks
Diaochan, Iroas, God of Victory, Kaalia, Marton, Ulasht, Volrath,
Kaervek, Prossh, Titania
Amusing or Themed
Progenitus
Pauper Guildmages
Azorius Boros Dimir Golgari Gruul Izzet Korozda
Orzhov Rakdos Rix Maadi Selesyna Simic Skarrg Zameck
I also play Weiss Schwarz, Chaos, Vanguard and Wixoss.
Accel World, Angel Beats, Familiar of Zero, Gargantia on the Verdurous Planet, Guilty Crown, Kill La Kill, Robotics;Notes, Sword Art Online.
Chaos Partners
Arpeggio of Blue Steel: Iona, Kirishima, Kongou.
Dangan Ronpa: Asahina, Togami.
Freezing: Vibration: Chiffon, Satelizer.
Vanguard Clans Favoured
Angel Feather, Dark Irregulars, Genesis, Neonecter, Pale Moon, Shadow Paladins, Tachikaze.
Wixoss - Just trial decks for now!
What if the creature they are going to drop isn't rakdos? What if it's angel of despair? It would be too late to path it at that point.
BBB Two Hundred Zombies BBB
Duel Commander
WR Tajic, Wrath of the Manlands RW
BGW Doran Destruction WGB
Commander
GUB Mimeoplasm, Screw Politics BUG
BR Mogis, God of Slaughter RB
RGW Marath, Ramp and Removal WGR
WUBRG Karona, Jank God GRBUW
3drinks does have a valid point. And so does Vic, in response to my earlier comment. There will indeed be times when hitting Kaalia doesn't gain you that much, or turns out to be the wrong move. This is very likely to be the case if you're messing with Kaalia when her player is already at 7+ mana.
That said, having played a lot against several different Kaalia decks, I've still found that while things will occasionally play out differently in a given game, the best strategy across lots of matches against Kaalia is to take her out quickly and repeatedly, until such point as she is either tucked or has been killed enough times that it is no longer cost-effective to keep casting her. By that point the Kaalia player will indeed be able to hardcast many of the big beasties, but then you're down to just another EDH game, in which threats are cast and answered. The Kaalia player will still be able to get and keep a board presence due to things like Baneslayer Angel and Thundermaw Hellkite, closely followed by things like Rune-Scarred Demon and Avacyn, but the she won't be as overwhelming if she's not casting those things several turns earlier.
What makes Kaalia dangerous is her capacity to get a couple ridiculous threats out early enough that by the time they're neutralized, the Kaalia player is already in a pretty commanding lead, plus the possibility that if the Kaalia player then casts Armageddon, there won't be much chance of her opponents neutralizing the threats at all. The best bet to win against Kaalia is to keep that from happening.
Lolwut? That's just not true at all...until a better Baneslayer comes out (lol yeah right) BSA will always be a cheap and respectable threat that controls the skies very well.
So it's just a Vindicate and a 5/5 flyer. Oh noes you lost one card. Whatever will you do?
Seriously, this isn't that big of an impact play so as to completely throw off a game. A Rune-scarred, then maybe we're talking -- but the deck is in B anyway, so that's just yet another tutour, Master of Cruelties and Sire of Insanity are relevant here...but that could be dealt with just as easily as the Kaalia you were aiming the Path to Exile at.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
I'd say Treva or Ghave (if you're using several easy-to-trigger lifegain cards*) more likely.
*In Ghave, that would be Soul Warden and friends, Blood Artist and Falkenrath Noble, and Trostani, Selesnya's Voice.
In Kaalia, her only advantage is, what, being free? Which is nice, but so many better options exist, wouldn't you agree?
On phasing:
Those all cost six plus CMC. This doesn't. Contrary to popular belief, mana curves matter in Commander just as much as they do in the other formats too.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
It's funny, besides flopitout the majority of Kaalia players see why she's good while the non-Kaalia players think she's a waste. Well I ordered a foil one for my deck, I think she is gonna be good and I think she's just what Kaalia needs, this deck already kills itself. It needs more lifegain.
Numot - Retired
And what's the point of getting something for free if you don't abuse it? I mean, Kaalia's no Tolarian Academy or even a Vault of Whispers, but she's certainly abusable in her own way.
Seriously, though, looking at Kaalia builds, here's what I've found that handles lifegain more efficiently, and not just BSA:
Basilisk Collar: The cheapest source of lifelink besides auras.
True Conviction: A bit overcosted, and too heavily white in a wedge that generally doesn't get mana fixers. But if your build is heavy on multicolor lands, it's possible. Plus, Rakdos kingmaker: "Not playing demons? Yeah, just pop 3/4 of your permanents now."
Vault of Whispers: The pro is that it also provides deathtouch, like the collar. The con is that you have to pay mana every turn.
On phasing: