Most people are aware of the EDH banlist. We all know what cards are on it.
We also know that EDH is a casual format that is made by the players, for the players.
My playgroup, for the most part, respects the banlist.
However, one card that a few of us have played with is Gifts Ungiven.
None of us use combo so we arent tutoring for absurd plays. We just use it in the same vein as Distant Memories. It's card advantage.
It got me thinking, Does anyone here not use the standard Banlist?
Also, does anyone have a playgroup that banned certain cards?
Maybe as an unwritten rule? (for example, my playgroup hasnt "banned it", but Land destruction is sevearly frowned upon.)
My group doesn't have bans, per se, just cards that are frowned upon in certain situations. For example, we have kids that like to destroy all lands and concede, or use Sorin to set someone to ten life and concede.
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In our playgroup we banned Strip Mine because it is so easy to set up with crucible of worlds and we banned Gifts Ungiven for the powerlevel of the card and the easy way to tutor your combo.
Rejoice, gifts is already banned for everybody, not just you.
Most groups I've played with have not had separate banlists or anything, but the more casual ones will basically discourage people from playing strategies that they consider unfun. Mass LD and fast/cheap combos are the common ones to "ban," but the ban isn't written, it's just accomplished by talking with people and getting people on the same page about how they'd like games to flow.
Other groups I've played with enjoy mass LD, combos, and other cutthroat strats. Since everyone is on the same page about this no one complains or gets upset about it, we just reshuffle and play again.
Me personally, I enjoy a variety of ways to play this game so I like both the causal and cutthroat groups. However, casual or competitive, I've never understood the need for a house banlist if people in your group aren't antisocial or just dbags. And if some are then just exclude those people.
I've never understood the need for a house banlist if people in your group aren't antisocial or just dbags. And if some are then just exclude those people.
I agree, and my play group doesnt have an actual banlist, it is more along the lines of a mutual understanding with each other not to play card if it keeps others from having fun.
thats not to say that we dont let people play powerful cards, for example, if someone gets hit with nicol bolas' last ability, we dont start discussing wether it should be prohibited. its just stuff like emrakul and the like that we dont play with.
For example, we have kids that like to destroy all lands and concede
Wow.
In my group, that ******* would be *politely* told to GTFO. That's just such a colossal dick move and would NOT be tolerated. (and you shouldn't either)
That's like bringing an airhorn to a chamber music recital.
The Sorin thing, that's merely asinine.
Our group hasn't really 'officially' discovered cutthroat generals or decklists, but we do have one guy running Erayo & another running Asuza. The other 99 cards they're running with them make them a little less insane and instead, just a 'reasonable challenge'. The typical problems haven't really set in and we play EDH so infrequently, doubt it'll ever matter all that much. No one runs infinite-combo decks either..that really helps. I don't think I'd play against them if they did, in fact.
I have not been playing with my group for very long however, Land Destruction is not something anyone likes. Typically, Crucible of Worlds is fine as long as you don't JUST use it for infinite Stripmine or Wasteland.
As for combo that is something that is about 50/50 as for who may or may not be running it. I myself have 1 combo in the deck that is VERY resource intensive and requires several cards. (1 main card but 3 total pieces) Most people I play with agree that because it is a 3 card combo that it is considered "fair" and doesn't fall into the "unfun" catagory.
As for my personal taste. The only things I completely frown upon are these two things:
1) Mass/Recurring Land Destruction (i.e You are blowing up more lands than I can play a turn, see: Armageddon, Crucible of Worlds + Strip Mine, and of course just running lots of destroy target land effects)
2) Searching to remove or steal/removing ANYTHING from an opponents deck. These decks are already 99 cards deep. Removing any win conditions from my deck sucks. Also if you get to play a card from my deck I really have a problem. This is why I do not play cards like Bribery in ANY of my blue decks and neither do my friends. Almost always Bribery correlates to turn 4-5 Ulamog or Kozilek. These lines of play are not fun for anyone else at the table.
Last point you mentioned about banned cards I would just say stick to the official banned list at the very very least. Outside of that, decide in your group what you else you feel needs to be restricted and you are well on your way to a solid play group. Banning cards should never limit the fun you have. It is there to enforce the integrity of the group's values as to what is NOT fun and it should handle those cases to make everyone's play better.
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My group doesn't have bans, per se, just cards that are frowned upon in certain situations. For example, we have kids that like to destroy all lands and concede, or use Sorin to set someone to ten life and concede.
Wow, and you let them play with you after doing that once? I mean I know if someone pulled that where I play, they would not be playing the next game.
We don't really have a ban list. And it's a lot easier to deal with card assessment in commander than it is in regular construction. We would complain about certain combos and certain things that were just annoying, but in commander, those annoying things seem so much more bearable (probably because none of us run infinite combos). Also, if a card seems like it ends games too quickly or seems to be just too ridiculous, the person will most likely just take it out. I did that with Storm Herd after 3 games. Sure, it's an awesome card. and it wins games. but if by chance I can play it turn 4/5 and they can't sweep, I almost always win. and well, when we think of commander(edh), we think of long battles with intense fights. Not 40 1/1 flying tokens winning the game by turn 6.
But there hasn't been much complaints with any one card. then again, that's probably because we do not have any cards on the banlist and such.
Wow, and you let them play with you after doing that once? I mean I know if someone pulled that where I play, they would not be playing the next game.
We don't ostracize people. We tell them what they're doing is wrong, why it's wrong, and not to do it in the future. Makes the group stronger, overall.
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Yeah I would never allow someone to play again if they just grief then concede. I'm ok with mass LD and Sorin and Magisters, ect but to quit afterwards is just bad form.
Searching to remove or steal/removing ANYTHING from an opponents deck. These decks are already 99 cards deep. Removing any win conditions from my deck sucks. Also if you get to play a card from my deck I really have a problem. This is why I do not play cards like Bribery in ANY of my blue decks and neither do my friends. Almost always Bribery correlates to turn 4-5 Ulamog or Kozilek. These lines of play are not fun for anyone else at the table.
I have no problems with The Sphinx because it's a 7 cast and you have to earn the theft.
Also, another card my playgroup does not like is serra ascendant. I have a few, but I don't play them in commander. no need to make this game into something besides fun. and that's exactly what it would be if people started complaining about a single card that almost never fits a theme for a deck.
2) Searching to remove or steal/removing ANYTHING from an opponents deck. These decks are already 99 cards deep. Removing any win conditions from my deck sucks. Also if you get to play a card from my deck I really have a problem. This is why I do not play cards like Bribery in ANY of my blue decks and neither do my friends. Almost always Bribery correlates to turn 4-5 Ulamog or Kozilek. These lines of play are not fun for anyone else at the table.
If everyone in the world played combo like you, then I would agree with you. But a friend of mine runs Arcum Daggson. We restricted him from running the combos that blow up everything, but he still runs Myr Incubator/Eldrazi Monument, which sounds incredibly weak, but pretty much wins the game every time it hits.
I think our general rule with our play group is to keep tutoring to a minimum if possible. When you play EDH to win the same way every time, I think it gets old. So when my friend consistently would win turn 6 with his combo, I slid Jester's Cap into my Hanna, Ship's Navigator deck. Can I use the cap over and over, yep. Do I? No, I remove the one combo and I make him win another way.
My main point is this: if your deck has one win con, then you shouldn't win.
If you play a huge dick move then leave our group can by unanimous decision undo your play. So if you Armageddon and leave. We'll just put our stuff back.
Any house rules I've ever encountered have gone the other way: cards that are on the banned list are allowed. It's interesting (and challenging!) to play against stuff like Recurring Nightmare now and then.
@Bhaelfur, you don't have to ostracize them, but don't let people like that give LD a bad name. Using LD responsibly can be a lot of fun!
If you play a huge dick move then leave our group can by unanimous decision undo your play. So if you Armageddon and leave. We'll just put our stuff back.
This, I like. On a similar note, I would not mind if say there was a Dingus Egg on the table, I am about to die, and someone attacks me to kill me, and to get back at that person for attacking me, I instant cast rout, and take out myself and another person (in my meta you get points for killing blows)
My playgroup has random little "rules". We allow gifts ungiven if its for mere card advantage and no real combo. I usually go and grab 4 bomb creatures or spells that are fun for me. Usually I will grab like exanguinate and something else that people DONT want me to have so that I am guaranteed to have the other 2 and my deck is stripped of 2 auto wins essentially.
We let recurring nightmare and Emrakul, Aeons Thorn slide in my playgroup. They aren't abused and we're used to dealing with both so it's not a biggie.
That being said, we generally try to avoid playing the same deck twice in a row just to keep things interesting. We'll even swap decks if one person only brought 1 deck.
My group is pretty cutthroat by most standards I guess. We allow pretty much any card that would be allowed in Vintage (so no dexterity effects and ante, but Shahrazad is allowed). Nobody whines when someone casts a "griefer" card, unless they do it just to be a dick. Nobody complains about people comboing out of nowhere either, we just laugh about it and shuffle up again.
We do recognize that some mechanics are less fun and more degenerate than others. Our rationale is that if you have a 100 card deck, you should be able to dedicate at least a couple of slots to hate against whatever it is you don't like seeing.
@Bhaelfur, you don't have to ostracize them, but don't let people like that give LD a bad name. Using LD responsibly can be a lot of fun!
I agree with this. I play a Kiki-Jiki deck with a good amount of land destruction, and used responsibly it's more than fair and keeps a lot of degenerate decks in check. There's a difference between playing LD correctly and casting Wake of Destruction on someone's lands who is already behind just to grief them. LD gets a bad rep because it punishes people who don't expect it more than most mechanics, but if it's common in your meta then people will start sandbagging lands and packing answers to it.
Also, if someone is playing Azami/Arcum/etc and telling you that LD isn't a fun way to play, you need to reach across the table and slap them.
If everyone in the world played combo like you, then I would agree with you. But a friend of mine runs Arcum Daggson. We restricted him from running the combos that blow up everything, but he still runs Myr Incubator/Eldrazi Monument, which sounds incredibly weak, but pretty much wins the game every time it hits.
I think our general rule with our play group is to keep tutoring to a minimum if possible. When you play EDH to win the same way every time, I think it gets old. So when my friend consistently would win turn 6 with his combo, I slid Jester's Cap into my Hanna, Ship's Navigator deck. Can I use the cap over and over, yep. Do I? No, I remove the one combo and I make him win another way.
My main point is this: if your deck has one win con, then you shouldn't win.
I feel like in general there are too few people who actually want to just play a fun game and WANT to see someone ELSE do something awesome to win. Cards like Jester's Cap are great when used like you use it. It is basically a "don't combo me bro" kind of card.
It is sad when you watch every win condition you have get stripped away and are left with a hollow shell of a deck that is probably just lands and ramp spells at that point.
In a good play group no one should "need" to run any cards like Jester's Cap because counters, protection effects and destruction of combo piece (like: Beast Within) cards should be able to stop the degeneracy.
I guess what I was mostly pointing out was that there are those who play nothing but steal/remove from deck cards and THOSE people ruin the fun for anyone they decide to pick on. Much like Land Destruction does...
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Yeah I would never allow someone to play again if they just grief then concede. I'm ok with mass LD and Sorin and Magisters, ect but to quit afterwards is just bad form.
I actually just had that happen today. My little brother decided to grief another player by alpha-striking and conceding immediately after damage was resolved (he was at 5 life and didn't want to give someone the pleasure of taking him out, thus swung and scooped). The other player couldn't block and ended up being forced to overextend to keep his life total from hitting 0.
I can understand using a Cycling land when you are about to deck just so the other player can have a laugh, or using a Painland when you are at 1 and don't have a win right there, but upsetting the game state and then just conceding is childish.
While i would consider most of what you just listed boring and unfun, that might derive from the fact that my playgoup and I are still fairly new (started after rise of eldrazi). We havent had time to test the waters of all the different playstyles.
I have always like the idea of themed decks. I at one pont (and still might since EDH would be an amazing format to do this in) wanted to make decks for each of the guilds in Ravnica. If i did the EDH deck for each guild it would have to include the parun as the general and the champion would have to be in it and a bunch of other extra flavorful criteria that would have to be met.
If the decks were played they would have to be played against another "guild deck".
Its almost like a variant to the actual rules of EDH.
We play purelythematic decks (more below)
No direct damage, i.e you don't Fireball someone.
No mass land destruction. (Right now we are testing and made basic land indestructable, so you can play f.e. Armageddon.)
No infinite loops/combo.
No shroud nor protection.
No mass hand destruction.
Most of the last abilities of Planeswalkers we don't play.
I like (and try to adhere to) all of these except the shroud/protection rule - I feel like that's not really something that affects the other players' ability to play (whereas land destruction or discard/mill affects your ability to play at all).
The planeswalker rule is great - I have only used Sorin's last ability on someone ONCE, and after that I swore I would never use it again. Say whatever you want, it's just no fun, and it made me feel dirty. I also only use Liliana as a tutor or two, however, it's hard to not use Garruk's Overrun (but that may not be included in the "most").
We also know that EDH is a casual format that is made by the players, for the players.
My playgroup, for the most part, respects the banlist.
However, one card that a few of us have played with is Gifts Ungiven.
None of us use combo so we arent tutoring for absurd plays. We just use it in the same vein as Distant Memories. It's card advantage.
It got me thinking, Does anyone here not use the standard Banlist?
Also, does anyone have a playgroup that banned certain cards?
Maybe as an unwritten rule? (for example, my playgroup hasnt "banned it", but Land destruction is sevearly frowned upon.)
What dont you guys play with?
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Rejoice, gifts is already banned for everybody, not just you.
Most groups I've played with have not had separate banlists or anything, but the more casual ones will basically discourage people from playing strategies that they consider unfun. Mass LD and fast/cheap combos are the common ones to "ban," but the ban isn't written, it's just accomplished by talking with people and getting people on the same page about how they'd like games to flow.
Other groups I've played with enjoy mass LD, combos, and other cutthroat strats. Since everyone is on the same page about this no one complains or gets upset about it, we just reshuffle and play again.
Me personally, I enjoy a variety of ways to play this game so I like both the causal and cutthroat groups. However, casual or competitive, I've never understood the need for a house banlist if people in your group aren't antisocial or just dbags. And if some are then just exclude those people.
I agree, and my play group doesnt have an actual banlist, it is more along the lines of a mutual understanding with each other not to play card if it keeps others from having fun.
thats not to say that we dont let people play powerful cards, for example, if someone gets hit with nicol bolas' last ability, we dont start discussing wether it should be prohibited. its just stuff like emrakul and the like that we dont play with.
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Wow.
In my group, that ******* would be *politely* told to GTFO. That's just such a colossal dick move and would NOT be tolerated. (and you shouldn't either)
That's like bringing an airhorn to a chamber music recital.
The Sorin thing, that's merely asinine.
Our group hasn't really 'officially' discovered cutthroat generals or decklists, but we do have one guy running Erayo & another running Asuza. The other 99 cards they're running with them make them a little less insane and instead, just a 'reasonable challenge'. The typical problems haven't really set in and we play EDH so infrequently, doubt it'll ever matter all that much. No one runs infinite-combo decks either..that really helps. I don't think I'd play against them if they did, in fact.
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As for combo that is something that is about 50/50 as for who may or may not be running it. I myself have 1 combo in the deck that is VERY resource intensive and requires several cards. (1 main card but 3 total pieces) Most people I play with agree that because it is a 3 card combo that it is considered "fair" and doesn't fall into the "unfun" catagory.
As for my personal taste. The only things I completely frown upon are these two things:
1) Mass/Recurring Land Destruction (i.e You are blowing up more lands than I can play a turn, see: Armageddon, Crucible of Worlds + Strip Mine, and of course just running lots of destroy target land effects)
2) Searching to remove or steal/removing ANYTHING from an opponents deck. These decks are already 99 cards deep. Removing any win conditions from my deck sucks. Also if you get to play a card from my deck I really have a problem. This is why I do not play cards like Bribery in ANY of my blue decks and neither do my friends. Almost always Bribery correlates to turn 4-5 Ulamog or Kozilek. These lines of play are not fun for anyone else at the table.
Last point you mentioned about banned cards I would just say stick to the official banned list at the very very least. Outside of that, decide in your group what you else you feel needs to be restricted and you are well on your way to a solid play group. Banning cards should never limit the fun you have. It is there to enforce the integrity of the group's values as to what is NOT fun and it should handle those cases to make everyone's play better.
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Wow, and you let them play with you after doing that once? I mean I know if someone pulled that where I play, they would not be playing the next game.
But there hasn't been much complaints with any one card. then again, that's probably because we do not have any cards on the banlist and such.
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We don't ostracize people. We tell them what they're doing is wrong, why it's wrong, and not to do it in the future. Makes the group stronger, overall.
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What do you think about Sphinx Ambassador?
I have no problems with The Sphinx because it's a 7 cast and you have to earn the theft.
Also, another card my playgroup does not like is serra ascendant. I have a few, but I don't play them in commander. no need to make this game into something besides fun. and that's exactly what it would be if people started complaining about a single card that almost never fits a theme for a deck.
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If everyone in the world played combo like you, then I would agree with you. But a friend of mine runs Arcum Daggson. We restricted him from running the combos that blow up everything, but he still runs Myr Incubator/Eldrazi Monument, which sounds incredibly weak, but pretty much wins the game every time it hits.
I think our general rule with our play group is to keep tutoring to a minimum if possible. When you play EDH to win the same way every time, I think it gets old. So when my friend consistently would win turn 6 with his combo, I slid Jester's Cap into my Hanna, Ship's Navigator deck. Can I use the cap over and over, yep. Do I? No, I remove the one combo and I make him win another way.
My main point is this: if your deck has one win con, then you shouldn't win.
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@Bhaelfur, you don't have to ostracize them, but don't let people like that give LD a bad name. Using LD responsibly can be a lot of fun!
This, I like. On a similar note, I would not mind if say there was a Dingus Egg on the table, I am about to die, and someone attacks me to kill me, and to get back at that person for attacking me, I instant cast rout, and take out myself and another person (in my meta you get points for killing blows)
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That being said, we generally try to avoid playing the same deck twice in a row just to keep things interesting. We'll even swap decks if one person only brought 1 deck.
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We do recognize that some mechanics are less fun and more degenerate than others. Our rationale is that if you have a 100 card deck, you should be able to dedicate at least a couple of slots to hate against whatever it is you don't like seeing.
I agree with this. I play a Kiki-Jiki deck with a good amount of land destruction, and used responsibly it's more than fair and keeps a lot of degenerate decks in check. There's a difference between playing LD correctly and casting Wake of Destruction on someone's lands who is already behind just to grief them. LD gets a bad rep because it punishes people who don't expect it more than most mechanics, but if it's common in your meta then people will start sandbagging lands and packing answers to it.
Also, if someone is playing Azami/Arcum/etc and telling you that LD isn't a fun way to play, you need to reach across the table and slap them.
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I feel like in general there are too few people who actually want to just play a fun game and WANT to see someone ELSE do something awesome to win. Cards like Jester's Cap are great when used like you use it. It is basically a "don't combo me bro" kind of card.
It is sad when you watch every win condition you have get stripped away and are left with a hollow shell of a deck that is probably just lands and ramp spells at that point.
In a good play group no one should "need" to run any cards like Jester's Cap because counters, protection effects and destruction of combo piece (like: Beast Within) cards should be able to stop the degeneracy.
I guess what I was mostly pointing out was that there are those who play nothing but steal/remove from deck cards and THOSE people ruin the fun for anyone they decide to pick on. Much like Land Destruction does...
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I completely agree.
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I actually just had that happen today. My little brother decided to grief another player by alpha-striking and conceding immediately after damage was resolved (he was at 5 life and didn't want to give someone the pleasure of taking him out, thus swung and scooped). The other player couldn't block and ended up being forced to overextend to keep his life total from hitting 0.
I can understand using a Cycling land when you are about to deck just so the other player can have a laugh, or using a Painland when you are at 1 and don't have a win right there, but upsetting the game state and then just conceding is childish.
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I have always like the idea of themed decks. I at one pont (and still might since EDH would be an amazing format to do this in) wanted to make decks for each of the guilds in Ravnica. If i did the EDH deck for each guild it would have to include the parun as the general and the champion would have to be in it and a bunch of other extra flavorful criteria that would have to be met.
If the decks were played they would have to be played against another "guild deck".
Its almost like a variant to the actual rules of EDH.
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WBRKaalia of the VastRBWGBSapling of ColfenorGB
I like (and try to adhere to) all of these except the shroud/protection rule - I feel like that's not really something that affects the other players' ability to play (whereas land destruction or discard/mill affects your ability to play at all).
The planeswalker rule is great - I have only used Sorin's last ability on someone ONCE, and after that I swore I would never use it again. Say whatever you want, it's just no fun, and it made me feel dirty. I also only use Liliana as a tutor or two, however, it's hard to not use Garruk's Overrun (but that may not be included in the "most").
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GWU Jenara, Asuran Enchantress
URG Riku, Omniscient Wizard
UBG Tasigur, Mind Grinder
UB Grimgrin, Combo-Stitched
GW Rhys, Gilt-Leaf Warrior
B Drana, Defiant Bloodchief
U Baral, Lord of Counterspells
G Azusa, Seeking the Horizon
W Kemba, Kha of the White Sun
C Ulamog, the Mana Glutton