Hello all.
Basiclly, a few people in my local game shop play group have banned Sorin Markov, Magister Sphinx, and Exsanguinate and for some reason the shop owner doesnt care.
The ones who want to have them banned are the "better" players because their abilities are not fair.
We play in big games so I understand Exsanguinate being banned at least.
My personal play group have been using Sorin and Magister Sphinx for as long as we have been playing EDH, and we dont think their power is degenerate at all. In fact I have played in many games where some one who got put to 10 still came out the winner because of great game play.
Can you guys help me come up with reasoning why Sorin and Magister Sphinx should be unbanned at my local card shop?
Thank you.
You can't someone's mentality man. It's like trying to convince a Nascar fan that all they do is drive in the oval and turn to the left.
The best way to get things unbanned is by having the majority of the people using the card. Tinker is powerful, but it hasn't broken one game of ours. I did put Magister Sphinx on turn 3, but I can do that normally. It really didn't change much.
Level the playing somehow. Allow everything then slowly eliminate the game breaking cards.
Those cards are far from unfair given that their casting costs are proper and justified at the rarity they're at. It sounds like your metagame doesn't have a single blue deck in sight. Those types of spells are extremely easy to regulate, especially in larger player pods (4-5 players) where something that bomb-like is bound to get countered or taken out to pasture and shot.
By that logic, Yawgmoth's Will and Iona, Shield of Emeria should get the banstick as well since they have the ability to win games on the spot. Maybe they should ban Traumatize, too, since that's an absolute house against highlander decks. Okay that's a bit of a stretch, but you get my drift. Those cards are a far cry from Balance or Yawgmoth's Bargain (cards that the RC actually banned) where the game degenerates into a groanfest which unnecessarily lengthens the game. At least the cards you mentioned are trying to end the game.
It - with general damage - keeps lifegain in check. It's also a game ender. And that just.. needs to happen. The game needs to stop.
But it's a common thing to be banned. In extremely casual playgroups it can be simply devastating, as much as mass land D or infinite combo.
If the shop isn't ready for that kind of play, maybe it's for the better. You might be able to talk him out of it. Also how big are the games that exsanguinate is bannable?
Those cards are far from unfair given that their casting costs are proper and justified at the rarity they're at. It sounds like your meta-game doesn't have a single blue deck in sight. Those types of spells are extremely easy to regulate, especially in larger player pods (4-5 players) where something that bomb-like is bound to get countered or taken out to pasture and shot.
By that logic, Yawgmoth's Will and Iona, Shield of Emeria should get the ban stick as well since they have the ability to win games on the spot. Heck, every card on the Top 50 List should get banned for "being unfair". Okay that's a bit of a stretch, but you get my drift. Those cards are a far cry from Balance or Yawgmoth's Bargain (cards that the RC actually banned) where the game degenerates into a groan fest which unnecessarily lengthens the game. At least the cards you mentioned are trying to end the game.
Good call. He didn't say it, but by the way he was describing the competition and situation made that conclusion. Why would you ban Yawgmoth's Will,? You need a deck of broken cards for it to make it broken. That's like saying Black Lotus is broken even with if the deck is Silver Legion with Black Louts and 98 Lands.
Good call. He didn't say it, but by the way he was describing the competition and situation made that conclusion. Why would you ban Yawgmoth's Will,? You need a deck of broken cards for it to make it broken. That's like saying Black Lotus is broken even with if the deck is Silver Legion with Black Louts and 98 Lands.
True, Yawg's Will does require brokenness in the yard to be broken. But my point still stands! Something like Exsanguinate being banned from a playgroup means that that particular playgroup hasn't fully matured enough to be able to handle it properly. Which is kind of mindboggling.
True, Yawg's Will does require brokenness in the yard to be broken. But my point still stands! Something like Exsanguinate being banned from a playgroup means that that particular playgroup hasn't fully matured enough to be able to handle it properly. Which is kind of mindboggling.
Sorry if I sounded rude, all broken cards require more broken cards to make it broken. I'm glad you realized that :). Most EDH players don't. Necropotence isn't broken in a 55 land deck with no life gain. It's the player not the card, it's sad that people don't realize that yet and it's 2011...sigh.
Meh, i for one hate Sorin i think his ability is pretty rediculessly powerful in EDH because a smart player dosent drop it till they have there victim within killing range.
I think both those cards are good and necessary. I say this as a person who will happily generate an infinite amount of life when capable. Things are needed to keep people in check. If I die because of them, well that's just part of the game.
Meh, i for one hate Sorin i think his ability is pretty rediculessly powerful in EDH because a smart player dosent drop it till they have there victim within killing range.
You could say the same about any rare/mythic bomb, though. Players won't tap out for Insurrection or Tooth and Nail unless the board is in their favor or to gain an advantage. That's how those cards should be played because they're powerful cards. Does it make them overpowered? Not at all. The player using them is competent enough (and his opponent, unfortunately, unprepared enough) in setting up a board position to the point where a victory would be imminent if a spell like that resolves. Like you said: that's smart!
In the case of Exsanguinate and the like, I see no reason for them to be banned unless the people using them just have such an overwhelming advantage over every other opponent that they're considered "degenerate". And by that I mean that their metagame isn't developed at all. Or there are nothing but budget decks in that area. In which case, I can see the justification for that. Sort of.
I think both those cards are good and necessary. I say this as a person who will happily generate an infinite amount of life when capable. Things are needed to keep people in check. If I die because of them, well that's just part of the game.
That's exactly why cards like Sorin and Sphinx exist. Life.dec is more common than most people think. There's always that one person that has to include an infinite life combo in his homebrew.
Play Lin Sivvi life, and combo out with infinite life as much as possible. Check out the deck by urdjur in the 1v1 compendium for concept/deck idea. It's brutally consistent.
"Hey guys, wouldn't it be nice if we could play Sorin or Magister Sphinx? GG"
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At least decks that play Sorin and magister sphinx are probably winning through combat damage and not combo - combo decks dont care about your life total.
Wish I can get Sorin banned in my playgroup, that card is lame.
6 mana for 10 damage on a mythic MIGHT be ok, but 30 damage for 6 mana is not appropriate. Maybe if it cost 5 loyalty, then at least you have a turn to respond, but seriously? 6 mana for 30 damage? Every time a black general hits the table I have to play my blue Kira/Wizard million counter deck =/
Play Lin Sivvi life, and combo out with infinite life as much as possible. Check out the deck by urdjur in the 1v1 compendium for concept/deck idea. It's brutally consistent.
"Hey guys, wouldn't it be nice if we could play Sorin or Magister Sphinx? GG"
That would be my suggestion as well. Any kind of life combo should show them that the cards do serve a purpose. Either that or they will just ban infinite life
I wouldn't sweat it. None of those cards are that good. Exsanguinate is okay if you can setup Urborg + Coffers + Deserted Temple and actually generate enough mana to kill people with it.
What those cards ARE good at is beating bad decks. If people starting playing good decks that didn't care about life total changing effects, they wouldn't need to be banned.
The problem with defining [EDH] by what is "fun" is that everyone seems to define fun as what they don't lose to. If you keep losing to easily answered cards, that means you should improve your deck. If you don't want to improve your deck, then you should come to peace with the idea that you are going to lose because you chose to not interact with better strategies.
I honestly wish both sphinx and sorrin were banned. General damage already deals with the possibility of infinite life. Those two just instakill players out of no-where. Exsanganate is fine, unlike Kokusho is a problem because he can be recurred.
True, Yawg's Will does require brokenness in the yard to be broken. But my point still stands! Something like Exsanguinate being banned from a playgroup means that that particular playgroup hasn't fully matured enough to be able to handle it properly. Which is kind of mindboggling.
QTF.
As far as steps to getting them unbanned... ... ... sorry bro, you're on your own on that one. While the Sphinx is pretty broken, Sorin and Exsanguinate being banned is soo laughable, I'd probably find another LGS.
Wish I can get Sorin banned in my playgroup, that card is lame.
6 mana for 10 damage on a mythic MIGHT be ok, but 30 damage for 6 mana is not appropriate. Maybe if it cost 5 loyalty, then at least you have a turn to respond, but seriously? 6 mana for 30 damage? Every time a black general hits the table I have to play my blue Kira/Wizard million counter deck =/
I like how one out of their 99 being lame justifies you playing a deck style that pays primarily spells that prevent anybody from doing anything fun. (i.e. is lame) If the possibility of a card being played in a single color is this worrisome, there's always the option of adding a few counters to other decks you have.
My regular playgroup, though very casual, has had no issue with any of the cards mentioned. They hit the table, put the largest threat in a dangerous position and lets the rest of the table stabilize. Exsanguinate is used primarily to end games, killing everybody in one swoop, and Sorin and the Sphinx tend to do much the same. We even have a Sharuum player (non-infinite), and while it certainly can be a bit annoying when the third Magister Sphinx hits the table, that's our fault for not playing answers (counters, graveyard removal)
Some things need to be banned. These do not.
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Oh man they are playing [Insert Color Here] I better play this deck to counter [Insert Color Specific Bomb], or [Another Color Specific Bomb]!!
Maybe I should just not worry about the bombs and be prepared to deal with them. EDH/Commander (ugh) is a format where bombs literally define the format. It's what wins games. Some things do cross lines as posted above, but really unless it is simply stupid like Emrakul, the Aeons Torn then it's probably fine.
Oh man they are playing [Insert Color Here] I better play this deck to counter [Insert Color Specific Bomb], or [Another Color Specific Bomb]!!
Maybe I should just not worry about the bombs and be prepared to deal with them. EDH/Commander (ugh) is a format where bombs literally define the format. It's what wins games. Some things do cross lines as posted above, but really unless it is simply stupid like Emrakul, the Aeons Torn then it's probably fine.
Exactly! That's what makes EDH what it is; it's the nature of the beast. Nobody wants to sit around the table stockpiling creatures and playing a war of attrition with everyone refusing to attack because they're too lazy to do the combat math. That gets boring real quick.
Sorin and Sphinx are sort of like the Boredom Police. So, Moat and Gravity Sphere are on the board? You have the right to remain silent while I give you some life loss to the face.
Wish I can get Sorin banned in my playgroup, that card is lame.
6 mana for 10 damage on a mythic MIGHT be ok, but 30 damage for 6 mana is not appropriate. Maybe if it cost 5 loyalty, then at least you have a turn to respond, but seriously? 6 mana for 30 damage? Every time a black general hits the table I have to play my blue Kira/Wizard million counter deck =/
So if you see a card that you think is a griefer card, you respond with a griefer deck? That makes perfect sense. Too bad you don't play in my group, your million counter deck would get hated out every game.
Exactly! That's what makes EDH what it is; it's the nature of the beast. Nobody wants to sit around the table stockpiling creatures and playing a war of attrition with everyone refusing to attack because they're too lazy to do the combat math. That gets boring real quick.
Sorin and Sphinx are sort of like the Boredom Police. So, Moat and Gravity Sphere are on the board? You have the right to remain silent while I give you some life loss to the face.
The Boredom Police! I like that!
I am just coming from a four player free-for-all Commander marathon that lasted over three hours. Sphinx or Sorin were sorely needed in that game.
Basiclly, a few people in my local game shop play group have banned Sorin Markov, Magister Sphinx, and Exsanguinate and for some reason the shop owner doesnt care.
The ones who want to have them banned are the "better" players because their abilities are not fair.
We play in big games so I understand Exsanguinate being banned at least.
My personal play group have been using Sorin and Magister Sphinx for as long as we have been playing EDH, and we dont think their power is degenerate at all. In fact I have played in many games where some one who got put to 10 still came out the winner because of great game play.
Can you guys help me come up with reasoning why Sorin and Magister Sphinx should be unbanned at my local card shop?
Thank you.
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The best way to get things unbanned is by having the majority of the people using the card. Tinker is powerful, but it hasn't broken one game of ours. I did put Magister Sphinx on turn 3, but I can do that normally. It really didn't change much.
Level the playing somehow. Allow everything then slowly eliminate the game breaking cards.
EDH
BWG Doran Suicide Tempo BWG
BUW Sharuum Midrange Control BUW
Those cards are far from unfair given that their casting costs are proper and justified at the rarity they're at. It sounds like your metagame doesn't have a single blue deck in sight. Those types of spells are extremely easy to regulate, especially in larger player pods (4-5 players) where something that bomb-like is bound to get countered or taken out to pasture and shot.
By that logic, Yawgmoth's Will and Iona, Shield of Emeria should get the banstick as well since they have the ability to win games on the spot. Maybe they should ban Traumatize, too, since that's an absolute house against highlander decks. Okay that's a bit of a stretch, but you get my drift. Those cards are a far cry from Balance or Yawgmoth's Bargain (cards that the RC actually banned) where the game degenerates into a groanfest which unnecessarily lengthens the game. At least the cards you mentioned are trying to end the game.
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But then all casual games there consist of people who only own Legacy tourney decks. Most casual games involve Goblins or Dredge or something.
But it's a common thing to be banned. In extremely casual playgroups it can be simply devastating, as much as mass land D or infinite combo.
If the shop isn't ready for that kind of play, maybe it's for the better. You might be able to talk him out of it. Also how big are the games that exsanguinate is bannable?
Good call. He didn't say it, but by the way he was describing the competition and situation made that conclusion. Why would you ban Yawgmoth's Will,? You need a deck of broken cards for it to make it broken. That's like saying Black Lotus is broken even with if the deck is Silver Legion with Black Louts and 98 Lands.
EDH
BWG Doran Suicide Tempo BWG
BUW Sharuum Midrange Control BUW
True, Yawg's Will does require brokenness in the yard to be broken. But my point still stands! Something like Exsanguinate being banned from a playgroup means that that particular playgroup hasn't fully matured enough to be able to handle it properly. Which is kind of mindboggling.
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Sorry if I sounded rude, all broken cards require more broken cards to make it broken. I'm glad you realized that :). Most EDH players don't. Necropotence isn't broken in a 55 land deck with no life gain. It's the player not the card, it's sad that people don't realize that yet and it's 2011...sigh.
EDH
BWG Doran Suicide Tempo BWG
BUW Sharuum Midrange Control BUW
You could say the same about any rare/mythic bomb, though. Players won't tap out for Insurrection or Tooth and Nail unless the board is in their favor or to gain an advantage. That's how those cards should be played because they're powerful cards. Does it make them overpowered? Not at all. The player using them is competent enough (and his opponent, unfortunately, unprepared enough) in setting up a board position to the point where a victory would be imminent if a spell like that resolves. Like you said: that's smart!
In the case of Exsanguinate and the like, I see no reason for them to be banned unless the people using them just have such an overwhelming advantage over every other opponent that they're considered "degenerate". And by that I mean that their metagame isn't developed at all. Or there are nothing but budget decks in that area. In which case, I can see the justification for that. Sort of.
That's exactly why cards like Sorin and Sphinx exist. Life.dec is more common than most people think. There's always that one person that has to include an infinite life combo in his homebrew.
Ruin's Trading Post
Play Lin Sivvi life, and combo out with infinite life as much as possible. Check out the deck by urdjur in the 1v1 compendium for concept/deck idea. It's brutally consistent.
Then play things like Righteous Aura, Maze of Ith, Prison Term, Oblation, Condemn, Cessation and Delaying Shield to prevent General damage.
"Hey guys, wouldn't it be nice if we could play Sorin or Magister Sphinx? GG"
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When EDH comes into play, the game is a draw. Each player reveals his or her library to all other players, discusses how cool their deck is, and has a good laugh.
Isn’t this a better version of Magic than playing “net decks”?
6 mana for 10 damage on a mythic MIGHT be ok, but 30 damage for 6 mana is not appropriate. Maybe if it cost 5 loyalty, then at least you have a turn to respond, but seriously? 6 mana for 30 damage? Every time a black general hits the table I have to play my blue Kira/Wizard million counter deck =/
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GRB Sek'Kuar, Deathkeeper BRG
That would be my suggestion as well. Any kind of life combo should show them that the cards do serve a purpose. Either that or they will just ban infinite life
What those cards ARE good at is beating bad decks. If people starting playing good decks that didn't care about life total changing effects, they wouldn't need to be banned.
QTF.
As far as steps to getting them unbanned... ... ... sorry bro, you're on your own on that one. While the Sphinx is pretty broken, Sorin and Exsanguinate being banned is soo laughable, I'd probably find another LGS.
I like how one out of their 99 being lame justifies you playing a deck style that pays primarily spells that prevent anybody from doing anything fun. (i.e. is lame) If the possibility of a card being played in a single color is this worrisome, there's always the option of adding a few counters to other decks you have.
My regular playgroup, though very casual, has had no issue with any of the cards mentioned. They hit the table, put the largest threat in a dangerous position and lets the rest of the table stabilize. Exsanguinate is used primarily to end games, killing everybody in one swoop, and Sorin and the Sphinx tend to do much the same. We even have a Sharuum player (non-infinite), and while it certainly can be a bit annoying when the third Magister Sphinx hits the table, that's our fault for not playing answers (counters, graveyard removal)
Some things need to be banned. These do not.
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Maybe I should just not worry about the bombs and be prepared to deal with them. EDH/Commander (ugh) is a format where bombs literally define the format. It's what wins games. Some things do cross lines as posted above, but really unless it is simply stupid like Emrakul, the Aeons Torn then it's probably fine.
Exactly! That's what makes EDH what it is; it's the nature of the beast. Nobody wants to sit around the table stockpiling creatures and playing a war of attrition with everyone refusing to attack because they're too lazy to do the combat math. That gets boring real quick.
Sorin and Sphinx are sort of like the Boredom Police. So, Moat and Gravity Sphere are on the board? You have the right to remain silent while I give you some life loss to the face.
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So if you see a card that you think is a griefer card, you respond with a griefer deck? That makes perfect sense. Too bad you don't play in my group, your million counter deck would get hated out every game.
The Boredom Police! I like that!
I am just coming from a four player free-for-all Commander marathon that lasted over three hours. Sphinx or Sorin were sorely needed in that game.
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