So a highly debated subject amongst my playgroup is the running of nonbasic land hate (Ex. Ruination, Blood Moon, Magus of the Moon, Price of Progress, Primal Order, etc). In EDH, it is important to have a lot of nonbasics since you can only have one of any kind, and to allow for more utility like effects. Clearly there are cards that make it difficult to run nonbasics. But what is the real drawback to running a greater amount of basics than non? Could there be an advantage other than avoiding those hateful cards to run almost all basic lands? Strong points for either side of the argument would be appreciated, not just one.
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EDH BWTeysa, Orzhov ScionBW GEzuri, Renegade LeaderG
Stolen from Waiting in the Weeds: Greasemonkey + This lets you see cards without opening a new page/tab!
Nonbasic lands (duals, shocks, fetch's) tend to be more efficient than basics and will accelerate you faster and make your mana base more consistent. Speed is important in all formats.
In EDH, players usually have answers for everything in their meta; in multiplayer, cards like Magus of the Moon or Blood Moon won't even last until your next turn - if they even make it past the counters in the first place. In groups full of tier 1 edh decks, these cards aren't an issue in the least. The amount of hate they draw will often render them fairly useless (although you force your opponents to use counter/removal on this rather than something more key to your strategy).
Nonbasic lands (duals, shocks, fetch's) tend to be more efficient than basics and will accelerate you faster and make your mana base more consistent. Speed is important in all formats.
In EDH, players usually have answers for everything in their meta; in multiplayer, cards like Magus of the Moon or Blood Moon won't even last until your next turn - if they even make it past the counters in the first place. In groups full of tier 1 edh decks, these cards aren't an issue in the least. The amount of hate they draw will often render them fairly useless (although you force your opponents to use counter/removal on this rather than something more key to your strategy).
Could I be as daring to say that it would be in some aspects more efficient to drop basic lands? A good chunk of nonbasics come in to play tapped, where as basics don't and you can utilize that 1 extra mana faster than say a Sejiri Steppe. Although it doesn't tap for a possible 2 - 3 colors, things that give acceleration to basics should be taken into account as well, like Keeper of Progenitus, Gauntlet of Power, or Extraplanar Lense. I'm not necessarily saying don't run ANY nonbasics, just that maybe people get too focused on running so many utility lands that they forget about the benefits of running regular ones?
Also I wasn't speaking in a matter of tier 1 EDH decks, considering my play group is extremely casual. Not saying that they don't try in their deck construction, but I don't know how much money they invest in their cards so it wouldn't be fair to assume they were a tier 1 deck. I understand your point though.
i think 2 basic lands for each color in deck is the best option (exception for 5color decks)
usuall there is no room for more, and no need.
Would you care to elaborate?
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EDH BWTeysa, Orzhov ScionBW GEzuri, Renegade LeaderG
Stolen from Waiting in the Weeds: Greasemonkey + This lets you see cards without opening a new page/tab!
i think 2 basic lands for each color in deck is the best option (exception for 5color decks)
usuall there is no room for more, and no need.
say what?
uhhhh i dont own enough non basic lands that are WORTH putting in a deck for that to be even close to true.
OP: Ultimately competative EDH comes down to playing strong cards and keeping them there. Which means having answers to opponents wanting to get rid of your cards, or to their good cards. Non-basic lands add an incredible amount of versatility, uniqueness, and breadth to a deck. The great thing about EDH is being able to use all those cards to their potential. At the same time, players should keep in mind that they could be going up a deck which runs Bloodmoon, or Ruination, or Price of Progress (this hit me for 28 damage once, needless to say i couldn't fish one of the answers up that i had). If you've built a deck dependent on non-basic lands where one of those cards cripples you... then shame on you.
Unless you are playing in a restricted EDH format with special ban rules, most meta groups realize that certain kinds of cards become a necessity in every deck. In this case running anti-non basic land cards becomes almost a must. You won't find a competative EDH deck without Stripmine, Wasteland, etc.
In multi-colored decks, as someone previously mentioned, dual lands of various types tend to be more efficient.
In mono-color i almost never run excess non-basic lands, the bare minimum at most from my list above. Extraplanar Lens and Gauntlet of Power just get weaker without a solid basic land supply.
Thanks to all the non-basic land presence in EDH, Trailblazer's Boots becomes very very very good.
EDH:
Currently Piloting:
Dama, Sage of Stone | Karador, Ghost Chieftan | Sigarda, Host of Herons | Elbrus, the Binding Blade / Withengar Unbound | Grand Arbiter Augustin IV | Genju of the Realm | Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
Garbage for constructed, costs way too much mana and can't even deal with walkers.
To sum it up. Creature removal doesn't take care of Plainswalkers...how am I to respond to a statment like that? It's like somebody saying division symbols suck at simple addition.
So its not true because you don't have all the good cards you need to do it?
Is a Horde of Notions deck only good if it runs every amazing dual land in existence?
Just because there exists x number of amazing non-basic lands, doesn't mean you can't make a good deck without them or mean that there is a "rule of thumb" for how many to run.
I agree that in multi-color, having good dual land support makes your deck a lot better, but the suggested mana base for mono color certainly is not a good idea, not in my mind.
The OP suggests a scenario that proves my point. i'de cringe pretty hard if i was up against someone running all that non-basic hate...and only having 2 basic lands in my deck.
EDH:
Currently Piloting:
Dama, Sage of Stone | Karador, Ghost Chieftan | Sigarda, Host of Herons | Elbrus, the Binding Blade / Withengar Unbound | Grand Arbiter Augustin IV | Genju of the Realm | Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
I try not to run to many non- basic lands in my decks, except for my 5 color deck. My group also runs magus/blood moon cards because people used to pack non basics in their decks. So much so that they would the Legends lands (like the one that removes first strike from a creature) over a normal basic. That's a little overkill.
Building an EDH deck with plenty of basic land isn't is hard as people think. There's a huge number of "fetches" that really shine when people start pulling out the hate. The high-priced onslaught and zendikar ones are just the tip of the iceberg.
I feel like players have started running more and more utility lands because they're hard to deal with…to the point where players are then packing lots of land destruction to get rid of all those troublesome lands. Full circle.
It depends how much you see these guys around in your playgroup. Most people already know how notorious Sundering Titan is, while Wake of Destruction is more under the radar.
More people need to play Wake of Destruction though -- probably one of my favorite hidden gems. It's such an amazing answer to the mono green decks that like to rip the land out of their decks like crazy.
I play 5 color with no basic lands. We also have a gentlemans agreement to shy away from land destruction. Personally I would feel non basic land hate would break that agreement and allow me to bring in global land destruction. I would tailor your choice to your group play.
Any 3 color deck i make gets 2 basics of each color atm, you really dont need more to deal with hate and there are easily enough good lands to do it, i dont run abu lands or even old fetches but i only have around 5 citpt lands per deck usually, all of which give me an effect that is well worth it.
Is a Horde of Notions deck only good if it runs every amazing dual land in existence?
No a budget deck can easily be good but i would bet every time if budget were not a factor the deck would be better.
also
Thanks to all the non-basic land presence in EDH, Trailblazer's Boots becomes very very very good.
run any amount of one-off nonbasics (e.g. Strip Mine, Petrified Fields, Mouth of Ronom) if I require them though if there are too many of them, they may start replacing "spell slots"
run as many mana fixing lands as required by the George-Baxter analysis though for multicolour green decks, I will try to "cheat" and include more of green's mana fixing / mana acceleration spells instead
make a conscious effort to reduce any nonbasic lands that comes into play tapped or requires a cost to play (e.g. Rupture Spire, Soldevi Excavations, Lotus Vale,...) unless they are really, really necessary
run some lands with useful abilities as long as I run a total of no more than 10 nonbasic lands in any monocoloured decks (add five allowable nonbasic lands for each colour beyond one)
run a full nonbasic mana base if I am playing a colourless EDH deck (I haven't actually built a colourless EDH deck but this is sort of a given thanks to the rules of EDH)
Well, I got into Standard when Faeries and 5-Color Control were big, right before Conflux. The players that always won dropped a few hundred for the ridiculous manabase needed for their netdecks. An expensive manabase comprised of nearly all nonbasics guarantees you do well in Standard.
Of course, those netdeck guys were, you know, dbags and the absolute worst people to play against, to the point that FNM was no longer fun. My playgroup and I always joked, "Vivid lands? Psh, n00b. Basic mountain, man. Gets you there. Add some forest. Doesn't come into play tapped. Beat that."
(We understand that an expensive manabase can make a deck run more efficiently, but those guys that spend a ton on Magic, especially when you know the cards'll rotate out soon and you didn't build the deck yourself? Worst.
Also, I run a Legacy Burn deck, and Price of Progress is one of my favorite cards. :P)
I'm not saying I don't run any nonbasics myself; I just associate them with being "not cool."
Well, I'm putting together an EDH deck, and trying to do it real highlander style, so that means I only get 2 basics per color (regular and Snow-Covered). Obviously non-basic hate would hurt my deck a lot, especially when you are reaching into *every* nonbasic source available. Yeah, that means that cards like Caldera Lake, Thalakos Lowlands, Tranquil Garden, and Treva's Ruins all will see play in my deck. Thankfully I don't think I'll be desperate enough to dip into stuff like Castle Sengir...but you never know.
Is a Horde of Notions deck only good if it runs every amazing dual land in existence?
Just because there exists x number of amazing non-basic lands, doesn't mean you can't make a good deck without them or mean that there is a "rule of thumb" for how many to run.
Say whaaat?
I'm gonna have to go with your opposition on this one... Any multicolored deck running fewer (by many) basic lands than nonbasic is generally going to be better than a deck running more basic lands than nonbasic, especially with generals that aren't green, which is the exception to this rule of thumb because green has ramp cards (hence, it's more efficient to run them to accelerate your mana as well as thin your deck).
That doesn't mean multicolored decks that don't run nonbasics will be bad, it just means they will be inferior to an identical decklist that runs nonbasics.
@OP: As far as whether to run them or not, clearly, run as many as you can. I also agree with the "2 basics for every color" rule, unless you are running green as part of a multicolor deck. If that's the case, run something like 1/2 basics 1/2 nonbasics, and run ramp cards. Obviously you can't usually do this for two color decks or monocolored decks, but in the former case, you should run as many nonbasics that add both your decks colors as you can. For monocolored decks, running basics is the name of the game because of cards like Gauntlet of Might and Extraplanar Lens (or you could even run snow lands for that matter).
more reactive decks have better chances with lands that come into play tapped in any format. Sometimes this means giving up speed but that may be better than not being able to cast your spells at all. I run a Nicol Bolas with all the citp tapped lands I have and it's practically a monocolor deck. Having enough fixing to resolve and copy a Cruel Ultimatum is very nice. Ghost quarter is one thing I've seen that can muck up a manabase while still contributing to their own. It also gets rid of utililands like academy ruins or Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth if they're giving you trouble. Petrified Fields is a good counter to that though which any deck can run
I'm curious about the hate against non-basic lands. Why is it a bad idea, or 'uncool' to run a non-basic land for a basic one? If I have a higher budget than you, thats not my fault, and I'm certainly not going to run lower-quality lands because you don't want to sink the money into it.
And in EDH, the cards don't rotate, so investing in a single copy of a $120 land every couple of months untill you have all the expensive ones you need isn't over the top. Thats still a fairly cheap hobby, which is what Magic is. Its like saying My Origami crane isn't as cool because its made from gold sheet and yours is printer paper.
Garbage for constructed, costs way too much mana and can't even deal with walkers.
To sum it up. Creature removal doesn't take care of Plainswalkers...how am I to respond to a statment like that? It's like somebody saying division symbols suck at simple addition.
I'm curious about the hate against non-basic lands. Why is it a bad idea, or 'uncool' to run a non-basic land for a basic one? If I have a higher budget than you, thats not my fault, and I'm certainly not going to run lower-quality lands because you don't want to sink the money into it.
Its because a large number of useful nonbasics CIPT, and the ones that don't are all worth about $1 each (Painlands, which no one wants to run for some strange reason), $5-$10 each (Shocks thanks to rotation, enemy-Fetchs, Filter lands thanks to rotation), $15-$20 each (allied-Fetches), all the way up to $60-$80 each.
Building a budget EDH deck is tough if you are playing more than one color. Hell, I've had mono-colored decks that hit $80-$120 (of course, that was an Ashling deck with a bunch of foil Zendikar 244 mountains).
That being said, I've built 5-Color decks that run 27 basics and only 35 lands total (8 nonbasics, mostly Panoramas at that). You just need to mess with your color distributions and try not to make all of them equal (a common mistake I see is people running an even split between each of their deck's colors, when they should be favoring a color or two more than the others (heavily so in some cases).
I have both a Horde of Notions deck and a Child of Alara deck that run mostly basics. To be fair they are essentially 5cc green decks. It is possible to build good multicolor decks without duals and the like. You just have to be creative and do the best you can with what you've got. Who knows, you might just discover a couple hidden gems!
Every deck should probably have SOME basics, or at least a plan to deal with Blood Moon et al. And play smartly. Know when your opponent is (probably) running cards like that and prepare for when they hit the table.
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Every deck should probably have SOME basics, or at least a plan to deal with Blood Moon et al. And play smartly. Know when your opponent is (probably) running cards like that and prepare for when they hit the table.
I think "killing the guy with a bloodmoon" counts as a plan.
Some nonbasic hate is useful. I personally rock Strip Mine, Wasteland, Tectonic Edge, and Dust Bowl. Not a huge fan of Ghost Quarter, going -1 on lands just to nuke somebody elses is just not...it's just not a great card.
Stuff like the Moon and Ruination are a good way to get hated off the table, and can lead to unpleasant games. Which is why they're underplayed, along with red being underpowered except as a splash color. They're spike cards to a tee in a format that tends to allow extreme power but discourage undiluted spike-ness and "I Win" plays until extremely late game, whatever they are.
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BWTeysa, Orzhov ScionBW
GEzuri, Renegade LeaderG
Stolen from Waiting in the Weeds:
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In EDH, players usually have answers for everything in their meta; in multiplayer, cards like Magus of the Moon or Blood Moon won't even last until your next turn - if they even make it past the counters in the first place. In groups full of tier 1 edh decks, these cards aren't an issue in the least. The amount of hate they draw will often render them fairly useless (although you force your opponents to use counter/removal on this rather than something more key to your strategy).
(Multiplayer)
BRGKarrthus, Tyrant of Jund
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BGSkullbriar, the Walking Grave
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usuall there is no room for more, and no need.
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Genius, fast, and long eared.
Could I be as daring to say that it would be in some aspects more efficient to drop basic lands? A good chunk of nonbasics come in to play tapped, where as basics don't and you can utilize that 1 extra mana faster than say a Sejiri Steppe. Although it doesn't tap for a possible 2 - 3 colors, things that give acceleration to basics should be taken into account as well, like Keeper of Progenitus, Gauntlet of Power, or Extraplanar Lense. I'm not necessarily saying don't run ANY nonbasics, just that maybe people get too focused on running so many utility lands that they forget about the benefits of running regular ones?
Also I wasn't speaking in a matter of tier 1 EDH decks, considering my play group is extremely casual. Not saying that they don't try in their deck construction, but I don't know how much money they invest in their cards so it wouldn't be fair to assume they were a tier 1 deck. I understand your point though.
Would you care to elaborate?
BWTeysa, Orzhov ScionBW
GEzuri, Renegade LeaderG
Stolen from Waiting in the Weeds:
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say what?
uhhhh i dont own enough non basic lands that are WORTH putting in a deck for that to be even close to true.
OP: Ultimately competative EDH comes down to playing strong cards and keeping them there. Which means having answers to opponents wanting to get rid of your cards, or to their good cards. Non-basic lands add an incredible amount of versatility, uniqueness, and breadth to a deck. The great thing about EDH is being able to use all those cards to their potential. At the same time, players should keep in mind that they could be going up a deck which runs Bloodmoon, or Ruination, or Price of Progress (this hit me for 28 damage once, needless to say i couldn't fish one of the answers up that i had). If you've built a deck dependent on non-basic lands where one of those cards cripples you... then shame on you.
Unless you are playing in a restricted EDH format with special ban rules, most meta groups realize that certain kinds of cards become a necessity in every deck. In this case running anti-non basic land cards becomes almost a must. You won't find a competative EDH deck without Stripmine, Wasteland, etc.
I only run usefull non-basic lands in my decks: Urza's Tower, Urza's Mine, Urza's Powerplant, Thawing glaciers, Miren, the Moaning Well, Boseiju, he who Shelters All, the champions of kamigawa legendary lands, the Hideaway lands, Temple of the False God, Ghost Quarter, Black Market, Stripmine, Wasteland... all of these are great cards and could arguably fit into any deck.
In multi-colored decks, as someone previously mentioned, dual lands of various types tend to be more efficient.
In mono-color i almost never run excess non-basic lands, the bare minimum at most from my list above. Extraplanar Lens and Gauntlet of Power just get weaker without a solid basic land supply.
Thanks to all the non-basic land presence in EDH, Trailblazer's Boots becomes very very very good.
EDH:
Currently Piloting:
Dama, Sage of Stone | Karador, Ghost Chieftan | Sigarda, Host of Herons | Elbrus, the Binding Blade / Withengar Unbound | Grand Arbiter Augustin IV | Genju of the Realm | Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
So its not true because you don't have all the good cards you need to do it?
Rogue players for the win!
Is a Horde of Notions deck only good if it runs every amazing dual land in existence?
Just because there exists x number of amazing non-basic lands, doesn't mean you can't make a good deck without them or mean that there is a "rule of thumb" for how many to run.
I agree that in multi-color, having good dual land support makes your deck a lot better, but the suggested mana base for mono color certainly is not a good idea, not in my mind.
The OP suggests a scenario that proves my point. i'de cringe pretty hard if i was up against someone running all that non-basic hate...and only having 2 basic lands in my deck.
EDH:
Currently Piloting:
Dama, Sage of Stone | Karador, Ghost Chieftan | Sigarda, Host of Herons | Elbrus, the Binding Blade / Withengar Unbound | Grand Arbiter Augustin IV | Genju of the Realm | Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
I feel like players have started running more and more utility lands because they're hard to deal with…to the point where players are then packing lots of land destruction to get rid of all those troublesome lands. Full circle.
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For multicolored decks, the biggest threat is Sundering Titan.
For monocolored decks, the biggest threat is Wake of Destruction.
It depends how much you see these guys around in your playgroup. Most people already know how notorious Sundering Titan is, while Wake of Destruction is more under the radar.
More people need to play Wake of Destruction though -- probably one of my favorite hidden gems. It's such an amazing answer to the mono green decks that like to rip the land out of their decks like crazy.
No a budget deck can easily be good but i would bet every time if budget were not a factor the deck would be better.
also
Just play cloak
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Care to elaborate why "nonbasics are lame"
You do realise that Sundering Titan hits nonbasic lands too, right?
Of course, those netdeck guys were, you know, dbags and the absolute worst people to play against, to the point that FNM was no longer fun. My playgroup and I always joked, "Vivid lands? Psh, n00b. Basic mountain, man. Gets you there. Add some forest. Doesn't come into play tapped. Beat that."
(We understand that an expensive manabase can make a deck run more efficiently, but those guys that spend a ton on Magic, especially when you know the cards'll rotate out soon and you didn't build the deck yourself? Worst.
Also, I run a Legacy Burn deck, and Price of Progress is one of my favorite cards. :P)
I'm not saying I don't run any nonbasics myself; I just associate them with being "not cool."
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I'm gonna have to go with your opposition on this one... Any multicolored deck running fewer (by many) basic lands than nonbasic is generally going to be better than a deck running more basic lands than nonbasic, especially with generals that aren't green, which is the exception to this rule of thumb because green has ramp cards (hence, it's more efficient to run them to accelerate your mana as well as thin your deck).
That doesn't mean multicolored decks that don't run nonbasics will be bad, it just means they will be inferior to an identical decklist that runs nonbasics.
@OP: As far as whether to run them or not, clearly, run as many as you can. I also agree with the "2 basics for every color" rule, unless you are running green as part of a multicolor deck. If that's the case, run something like 1/2 basics 1/2 nonbasics, and run ramp cards. Obviously you can't usually do this for two color decks or monocolored decks, but in the former case, you should run as many nonbasics that add both your decks colors as you can. For monocolored decks, running basics is the name of the game because of cards like Gauntlet of Might and Extraplanar Lens (or you could even run snow lands for that matter).
And in EDH, the cards don't rotate, so investing in a single copy of a $120 land every couple of months untill you have all the expensive ones you need isn't over the top. Thats still a fairly cheap hobby, which is what Magic is. Its like saying My Origami crane isn't as cool because its made from gold sheet and yours is printer paper.
Rogue players for the win!
Its because a large number of useful nonbasics CIPT, and the ones that don't are all worth about $1 each (Painlands, which no one wants to run for some strange reason), $5-$10 each (Shocks thanks to rotation, enemy-Fetchs, Filter lands thanks to rotation), $15-$20 each (allied-Fetches), all the way up to $60-$80 each.
Building a budget EDH deck is tough if you are playing more than one color. Hell, I've had mono-colored decks that hit $80-$120 (of course, that was an Ashling deck with a bunch of foil Zendikar 244 mountains).
That being said, I've built 5-Color decks that run 27 basics and only 35 lands total (8 nonbasics, mostly Panoramas at that). You just need to mess with your color distributions and try not to make all of them equal (a common mistake I see is people running an even split between each of their deck's colors, when they should be favoring a color or two more than the others (heavily so in some cases).
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I think "killing the guy with a bloodmoon" counts as a plan.
That's the basic plan of every deck in existence: Kill someone and gloat about it.
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Stuff like the Moon and Ruination are a good way to get hated off the table, and can lead to unpleasant games. Which is why they're underplayed, along with red being underpowered except as a splash color. They're spike cards to a tee in a format that tends to allow extreme power but discourage undiluted spike-ness and "I Win" plays until extremely late game, whatever they are.