Hey all, here is my current list for my aggro loam deck. I like it so far but really need a way to replay creatures that either get dredged or killed as they are the main way i end up winning. So with BFZ out i saw the new card mortuary mire and thought that could work but there is also the old volrath's stronghold which can produce mana when it comes down but i really just want the spell effect so i'm not sure which i s a better fit. I want to fit 2 of these in ideally but not sure what to take out, if i go for the mortuary mire route would i need more land sac abilities?
Any help on this problem or any improvements to the deck are welcome.
I voted Stronghold. Yes, Mire can be recurred by Loam and can potentially recur creatures without you having to pay 1B + a land. I still have a few issues with it:
1) you need both Loam active AND a sacrifice outlet for Mire (i.e. you need to be winning already)
2) it enters tapped, which I find very annoying with Loam utility lands, because cycling lands are already enough ETB tapped lands and tempo does matter
3) you have to play it when you want to recur something; you can't just play it early for mana and then have access to recursion later
EDIT: That was in a vacuum. Given how few relevant creatures you have that are worth losing a Dredge/drawstep to recur, I'd definitely go with Stronghold. It functions as a plan B when you don't want to/can't Loam anymore and still need some grind. Whereas Mire is sort of part of the Loam plan, except doing things that you don't really want to do while Loaming.
I play in a casual budget legacy group so that's why i posted this here, not sure it could be super competitive without all the beta duals. As for how often i sac lands it's not as much as you would think, plus i would have to actually use my land drop for the turn each time with mortuary mire which can constrain me a little if i want to start retracing. I haven't tried either yet, hence the thread but ill proxy up a couple and mess around with it soon. I think a big thing will be how well Volrath's Stronghold works with devastating dreams, but i can see some awesome synergy with Bloodbraid Elf and smallpox once i sort this out.
Well, the 16 vs 28 is kind of skewed, because this deck basically casts 1 card (which can use the 1 colorless) 10 times more than it casts any other card (except maybe Raven's Crime, for which the extra black could help). Anyway, Loaming multiple times per turn is a thing, and colorless is perfectly good for that. ETBuntapped for only a colorless still matters for casting Loam and doing something else that turn.
Having played AggroLoam and LoamPox casually and competitively for years, the problem with Mire IMO is the order of functionality and the timing.
1) It goes "return creature" -> "mana" instead of "mana" -> "return creature". Loam decks prefer mana early and recursion later. Mire only gives you mana after you use the recursion. So do you hold it (and deny yourself mana) to get the recursion later, or do you drop it now for mana and potentially miss the recursion until you hit a sac outlet? Very early there's not much in your yard. As the plan develops, your yard fills but you're usually dredging instead of drawing anyway, so the recursion would miss. Late game it's more efficient at returning the first creature, granted.
2) It puts creatures on top of your library during your mainphase, instead of during your upkeep / opponent's end step. Mainphase stacking has a couple drawbacks. For one, waiting till EOT means you get more information about what the opponent's state is and can better plan what you need to put on top. For another, you can't stack it after Countryside Crusher (to ensure more lands milled). But more importantly, you may decide to mainphase cycle+dredge or EOT cycle+dredge or what opponent did during his turn may make you change your mind and decide to dredge Loam instead of draw the creature. Loam is usually quite a flexible reactive strategy, and your decisions can change over a turn cycle. Stronghold lets you put the creature on top the very second you decide you want to draw it instead of Dredge. Mire forces you to put it on top early and then either commit to it or lose the ability. Seems more hur-durr and less strategic.
3) Mire requires a consistent sacrifice outlet, which is more accessible in GU 43 Lands (with tutorable Zuran Orb) than in AggroLoam (which may have sacrifice outlets in hand but doesn't necessarily want to Dreams aggressively).
4) Reusing Mire requires an awkward sequence of --> dredge back Loam instead of draw -> cast sacrifice outlet -> Loam back Mire -> play Mire to put creature on top -> draw instead of dredge = no Loam -> creature. It requires Loam to recur, but it also requires you to not be Loaming every turn so that you have drawsteps to draw creatures. You end up alternating between Dredges and creature draws. Stronghold, when you need bodies, can just stack you with several creatures in a row, no Dredging needed.
5) Stronghold helps when Loam is offline (e.g. Surgical Extraction on Loam or too few cards left in library to Dredge more). Mire only works while you're still Loaming, which means it's less of a plan B and more of an accessory to plan A. IMO having plan B is better.
Anyway, looking forward to hearing back test results.
PS - I actually prefer a singleton Genesis over both. Doesn't require a land drop, can decide to use just before your draw step (i.e. max information and flexibility), doesn't even interfere with your top card or get disrupted by dredging. 2G is a bit steep, but most of the time when you are recurring you already have loads of mana anyway.
Any help on this problem or any improvements to the deck are welcome.
Thanks in advance!
2 Forest
2 Mountain
2 Swamp
2 Tranquil Thicket
2 Forgotten Cave
2 Barren Moor
2 Stomping Ground
1 Blood Crypt
1 Overgrown Tomb
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wooded Foothill
2 Bloodstained Mire
1 Tectonic Edge
4 Mox Diamond
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Raven's Crime
2 Devastating Dreams
4 Life From The Loam
4 Smallpox
2 Seismic Assault
1 Worm Harvest
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Countryside Crusher
2 Terravore
4 Bloodbraid Elf
1) you need both Loam active AND a sacrifice outlet for Mire (i.e. you need to be winning already)
2) it enters tapped, which I find very annoying with Loam utility lands, because cycling lands are already enough ETB tapped lands and tempo does matter
3) you have to play it when you want to recur something; you can't just play it early for mana and then have access to recursion later
EDIT: That was in a vacuum. Given how few relevant creatures you have that are worth losing a Dredge/drawstep to recur, I'd definitely go with Stronghold. It functions as a plan B when you don't want to/can't Loam anymore and still need some grind. Whereas Mire is sort of part of the Loam plan, except doing things that you don't really want to do while Loaming.
I play in a casual budget legacy group so that's why i posted this here, not sure it could be super competitive without all the beta duals. As for how often i sac lands it's not as much as you would think, plus i would have to actually use my land drop for the turn each time with mortuary mire which can constrain me a little if i want to start retracing. I haven't tried either yet, hence the thread but ill proxy up a couple and mess around with it soon. I think a big thing will be how well Volrath's Stronghold works with devastating dreams, but i can see some awesome synergy with Bloodbraid Elf and smallpox once i sort this out.
Having played AggroLoam and LoamPox casually and competitively for years, the problem with Mire IMO is the order of functionality and the timing.
1) It goes "return creature" -> "mana" instead of "mana" -> "return creature". Loam decks prefer mana early and recursion later. Mire only gives you mana after you use the recursion. So do you hold it (and deny yourself mana) to get the recursion later, or do you drop it now for mana and potentially miss the recursion until you hit a sac outlet? Very early there's not much in your yard. As the plan develops, your yard fills but you're usually dredging instead of drawing anyway, so the recursion would miss. Late game it's more efficient at returning the first creature, granted.
2) It puts creatures on top of your library during your mainphase, instead of during your upkeep / opponent's end step. Mainphase stacking has a couple drawbacks. For one, waiting till EOT means you get more information about what the opponent's state is and can better plan what you need to put on top. For another, you can't stack it after Countryside Crusher (to ensure more lands milled). But more importantly, you may decide to mainphase cycle+dredge or EOT cycle+dredge or what opponent did during his turn may make you change your mind and decide to dredge Loam instead of draw the creature. Loam is usually quite a flexible reactive strategy, and your decisions can change over a turn cycle. Stronghold lets you put the creature on top the very second you decide you want to draw it instead of Dredge. Mire forces you to put it on top early and then either commit to it or lose the ability. Seems more hur-durr and less strategic.
3) Mire requires a consistent sacrifice outlet, which is more accessible in GU 43 Lands (with tutorable Zuran Orb) than in AggroLoam (which may have sacrifice outlets in hand but doesn't necessarily want to Dreams aggressively).
4) Reusing Mire requires an awkward sequence of --> dredge back Loam instead of draw -> cast sacrifice outlet -> Loam back Mire -> play Mire to put creature on top -> draw instead of dredge = no Loam -> creature. It requires Loam to recur, but it also requires you to not be Loaming every turn so that you have drawsteps to draw creatures. You end up alternating between Dredges and creature draws. Stronghold, when you need bodies, can just stack you with several creatures in a row, no Dredging needed.
5) Stronghold helps when Loam is offline (e.g. Surgical Extraction on Loam or too few cards left in library to Dredge more). Mire only works while you're still Loaming, which means it's less of a plan B and more of an accessory to plan A. IMO having plan B is better.
Anyway, looking forward to hearing back test results.
PS - I actually prefer a singleton Genesis over both. Doesn't require a land drop, can decide to use just before your draw step (i.e. max information and flexibility), doesn't even interfere with your top card or get disrupted by dredging. 2G is a bit steep, but most of the time when you are recurring you already have loads of mana anyway.