This thread is for the discussion of my latest article, Cranial Insertion: Bad Moon on the Rise. We would be grateful if you would let us know what you think, but please keep your comments on topic.
"Sufficiently advanced experience is indistinguishable from clairvoyance." -Carsten
"Ah those eyes, those horrible creepy eyes!" -Chaosof99
DCI Level 3 Judge & TO "I do not consider myself a hero. I know only what the Vec teach:
justice must always be served and corruption must always be opposed."
Go read! I am one of the three authors of Cranial Insertion.
But seriously, if you can't remember "Woapalanne", just call me Eli.
On the Flayer of the Hatebound question. This means that Flayer does not trigger off a creature being cast with Havengul Lich correct? Does the Flayer trigger off unearth?
No to the Lich, yes to Unearth. The Lich lets you cast the creature card from the graveyard. The creature will end up entering the battlefield from the stack, so the Flayer will not trigger. Unearth puts the creature from the graveyard onto the battlefield, so the Flayer would trigger for unearthed creatures.
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Scientists have calculated that the chance of anything so patently absurd actually existing are millions to one. But magicians have calculated that million-to-one chances crop up nine times out of ten.
Q: If a Strangleroot Geist with a +1/+1 counter on it gets blocked by a Phyrexian Crusader, will it come back?
A: ......
...At no point was the Geist on the battlefield without a counter, since state-based actions simultaneously took it to the yard and took off the counters.
Can you point us to other precedence for this interpretation of the "simultaneous" nature of SBAs. Functionally, it's evaluation feels like it could go either way. (Reading just 704. in it's entirety doesn't seem to be sufficient for handling this.)
Is there ever a case where other "order matters" things could happen?
Also, what if multiple "destroy" requirements are met. Does that mean a creature is "destroy"ed more than once (but all at the same time?)
704.3. Whenever a player would get priority (see rule 116, “Timing and Priority”), the game checks for any of the listed conditions for state-based actions, then performs all applicable state-based actions simultaneously as a single event. If any state-based actions are performed as a result of a check, the check is repeated; otherwise all triggered abilities that are waiting to be put on the stack are put on the stack, then the check is repeated. Once no more state-based actions have been performed as the result of a check and no triggered abilities are waiting to be put on the stack, the appropriate player gets priority. This process also occurs during the cleanup step (see rule 514), except that if no state-based actions are performed as the result of the step’s first check and no triggered abilities are waiting to be put on the stack, then no player gets priority and the step ends.
The game will check to see if any creature has been dealt lethal damage, is at 0 toughness and if any object has both +1/+1 counters and -1/-1 counters amongst other SBA checks and if it sees any actions that need to be performed i.e an archbound ravager with 2 +1/+1 counters and 2 -1/-1 counters with nothing else pumping its toughness the archbound ravager gets shuffled off to the graveyard.
When the game looks back to evaluate the modular ability it will see it had 2 counters to put on another artifact. The same will occur with a creature with undying or persist and enough of both types of counters to reduce its toughness to 0.
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- H.L Mencken
I Became insane with long Intervals of horrible Sanity
All Religion, my friend is simply evolved out of fraud, fear, greed, imagination and poetry.
- Edgar Allan Poe
No to the Lich, yes to Unearth. The Lich lets you cast the creature card from the graveyard. The creature will end up entering the battlefield from the stack, so the Flayer will not trigger. Unearth puts the creature from the graveyard onto the battlefield, so the Flayer would trigger for unearthed creatures.
What about BV? does it still work with gravecrawler/lich/unearth for Burning Vengeance?
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Can you point us to other precedence for this interpretation of the "simultaneous" nature of SBAs. Functionally, it's evaluation feels like it could go either way. (Reading just 704. in it's entirety doesn't seem to be sufficient for handling this.)
Sure. The same conditions arise with Persist and Modular, and have consistently been decided to work the same way.
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I am no longer on MTGS staff, so please don't contact me asking me to do staff things. :|
Q: Can I Fork an Increasing Confusion that I cast using flashback to mill them 4X?
A: You'll only get 3X in this case, which still isn't shabby. The copy of Increasing Confusion asks "hey, was I cast from a graveyard?" and the game answers "Dude, you weren't even cast at all!" This causes Increasing Confusion to become increasingly confused and sad and blue, and sad spells don't give you big bonuses.
The Fork link, actually links to Chandra, which makes everything else work, but if it was Fork itself, it would have been an increasingly confused and sad red copy of a spell...
About the last answer with Gravecrawler and Flayer. It will work, half the time. Lets say Viscera Seer is the sac outlet.
Sac Gravecrawler to the seer. it comes back because of undying and deals damage. Then sac it. Now it won't come back from undying. Cast it and it deals no damage, then sac it again, it comes back because of undying it will deal damage. So every other sacrifice it comes back.
Not as good a combo as I'm sure was intended, but kind of works.
Can you point us to other precedence for this interpretation of the "simultaneous" nature of SBAs. Functionally, it's evaluation feels like it could go either way. (Reading just 704. in it's entirety doesn't seem to be sufficient for handling this.)
704.3 makes it clear that all applicable SBAs get applied simultaneously. The rules update bulletin for DKA also says that the upcoming edition of the Comprehensive Rules will contain an addition to the rules for state-based actions to make this absolutely clear (see "This was derivable from the rules before, but the number of questions I was getting certainly indicated that it could be clearer, so now this new rule exists.").
Also, what if multiple "destroy" requirements are met. Does that mean a creature is "destroy"ed more than once (but all at the same time?)
If a creature is subject to multiple "destroy" SBAs simultaneously (say, a 3/3 with 4 damage marked on it, one point of that from a source with deathtouch -- thus the "damage marked is greater than or equal to toughness" SBA and the "damage from a source with deathtouch" SBA are applicable), then they all apply simultaneously. In practice, this doesn't really matter much since the creature is only put into a graveyard once (and triggers and such are generally worded such that the battlefield -> graveyard zone change is what they watch for, not the event of destruction itself), and because a single regeneration shield or replacement effect which replaces the destruction will still work even if multiple SBAs are destroying the creature simultaneously:
704.6. If multiple state-based actions would have the same result at the same time, a single replacement effect will replace all of them.
About the last answer with Gravecrawler and Flayer. It will work, half the time. Lets say Viscera Seer is the sac outlet.
Sac Gravecrawler to the seer. it comes back because of undying and deals damage. Then sac it. Now it won't come back from undying. Cast it and it deals no damage, then sac it again, it comes back because of undying it will deal damage. So every other sacrifice it comes back.
Gravecrawler doesn't have Undying. This will only work if you control Mikaeus, the Unhallowed.
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"Sufficiently advanced experience is indistinguishable from clairvoyance." -Carsten
"Ah those eyes, those horrible creepy eyes!" -Chaosof99
DCI Level 3 Judge & TO
"I do not consider myself a hero. I know only what the Vec teach:
justice must always be served and corruption must always be opposed."
Go read! I am one of the three authors of Cranial Insertion.
But seriously, if you can't remember "Woapalanne", just call me Eli.
Scientists have calculated that the chance of anything so patently absurd actually existing are millions to one. But magicians have calculated that million-to-one chances crop up nine times out of ten.
Can you point us to other precedence for this interpretation of the "simultaneous" nature of SBAs. Functionally, it's evaluation feels like it could go either way. (Reading just 704. in it's entirety doesn't seem to be sufficient for handling this.)
Is there ever a case where other "order matters" things could happen?
Also, what if multiple "destroy" requirements are met. Does that mean a creature is "destroy"ed more than once (but all at the same time?)
The game will check to see if any creature has been dealt lethal damage, is at 0 toughness and if any object has both +1/+1 counters and -1/-1 counters amongst other SBA checks and if it sees any actions that need to be performed i.e an archbound ravager with 2 +1/+1 counters and 2 -1/-1 counters with nothing else pumping its toughness the archbound ravager gets shuffled off to the graveyard.
When the game looks back to evaluate the modular ability it will see it had 2 counters to put on another artifact. The same will occur with a creature with undying or persist and enough of both types of counters to reduce its toughness to 0.
- H.L Mencken
I Became insane with long Intervals of horrible Sanity
All Religion, my friend is simply evolved out of fraud, fear, greed, imagination and poetry.
- Edgar Allan Poe
The Crafters' Rules Guru
What about BV? does it still work with gravecrawler/lich/unearth for Burning Vengeance?
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Burning Vengeance says "cast."
Gravecrawler says "cast."
Havengul Lich says "cast."
Unearth is an activated ability that is not casting, so it will never trigger BV.
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Sure. The same conditions arise with Persist and Modular, and have consistently been decided to work the same way.
The Fork link, actually links to Chandra, which makes everything else work, but if it was Fork itself, it would have been an increasingly confused and sad red copy of a spell...
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Sac Gravecrawler to the seer. it comes back because of undying and deals damage. Then sac it. Now it won't come back from undying. Cast it and it deals no damage, then sac it again, it comes back because of undying it will deal damage. So every other sacrifice it comes back.
Not as good a combo as I'm sure was intended, but kind of works.
704.3 makes it clear that all applicable SBAs get applied simultaneously. The rules update bulletin for DKA also says that the upcoming edition of the Comprehensive Rules will contain an addition to the rules for state-based actions to make this absolutely clear (see "This was derivable from the rules before, but the number of questions I was getting certainly indicated that it could be clearer, so now this new rule exists.").
If a creature is subject to multiple "destroy" SBAs simultaneously (say, a 3/3 with 4 damage marked on it, one point of that from a source with deathtouch -- thus the "damage marked is greater than or equal to toughness" SBA and the "damage from a source with deathtouch" SBA are applicable), then they all apply simultaneously. In practice, this doesn't really matter much since the creature is only put into a graveyard once (and triggers and such are generally worded such that the battlefield -> graveyard zone change is what they watch for, not the event of destruction itself), and because a single regeneration shield or replacement effect which replaces the destruction will still work even if multiple SBAs are destroying the creature simultaneously:
----
Lightning Bolts don't kill creatures. State-based actions kill creatures.
Gravecrawler doesn't have Undying. This will only work if you control Mikaeus, the Unhallowed.