This thread is for the discussion of my latest article, BWG Aggro in Block. We would be grateful if you would let us know what you think, but please keep your comments on topic.
You seriosly underestimate how much Rolling Spoil pwns this deck, pre- and post-board. Not only does it wipe out half your creatures, but it cuts off a color which strands a third of your deck or more. This is on top of having to mulligan at least 50% of the time because you're missing a color.
Where's the Rusalka? Fetters can erase any headway you make early on, and without burn or Solifuge it's hard to recover. I suggest dropping the Ghost Councils for 'em.
You obviously realize how good Gruul aggro is, and yet you aren't running the mandatory 2 copies of seize the soul in the sideboard? Also, rot farm and Angel of D. are like dead cards in your sideboard because of the way the deck wans to play in everything but the mirror match, an aggro deck does not switch to control after sideboarding effectively, it only switches aggro routes
My other big complaint is the over valuation of ledgewalker, the one unblockable point makes a difference in gruul when bloodhirst matters, but not here. The obviously correct card to replace it with is Selesnya Guildmage. Right now this is a white rush deck NOT playing a viable glorious anthem. See my point?
I play a deck very similarto this in FNM, and while I won't post the decklist here, as I don't want it copied, I will say it has an excellent record, and beats all those archetypes in the majority of games. Its only trouble matchup is land destruction, or Gruul on an excellent draw (you know, stomping grounds Kird ape turn 1, handful of burn, and burning tree shamans).
Anyway, you should give serious consideration to the true value of ledgewalker, reevaluate the Sideboard, look at options provided by both the golgari and selesnya guildmages.
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My other big complaint is the over valuation of ledgewalker, the one unblockable point makes a difference in gruul when bloodhirst matters, but not here.
I don't play block myself, but the article does address this point: the Ledgewalker is there because it's untargetable by the opponent. The idea isn't for it to be dealing 1, it's there to deal 4 when cloaked up.
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(I'm on on this site much anymore. If you want to get in touch it's probably best to email me: dom@heffalumps.org)
Forum Awards: Best Writer 2005, Best Limited Strategist 2005-2012
5CB PotM - June 2005, November 2005, February 2006, April 2008, May 2008, Feb 2009
MTGSalvation Articles: 1-20, plus guest appearance on MTGCast #86!
<Limited Clan>
Every control deck I've seen so far runs 4 Rolling Spoilmain. As corncob said, that card wrecks this deck by not only killing the threats, but wrecking the mana base. I also think you need more cards to make Ledgewalker a threat than just Moldervine Cloak, since you will often draw one without the other (leaving you open to 2-for-1s or playing a 1/1 for 1G).
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"We have this treasure in earthen vessels to show that the power comes from God and not ourselves." 2COR 4:7
You seriosly underestimate how much Rolling Spoil pwns this deck, pre- and post-board. Not only does it wipe out half your creatures, but it cuts off a color which strands a third of your deck or more. This is on top of having to mulligan at least 50% of the time because you're missing a color.
No I don't. I just didn't talk about it much in the article. Read a couple pages back in the forums when I first started testing the deck and you hear about my worrying about it. Rolling Spoil is the reason I started the whole "control sideboard" deal. Because the matchup against BWG control was horrible.
You obviously realize how good Gruul aggro is, and yet you aren't running the mandatory 2 copies of seize the soul in the sideboard? Also, rot farm and Angel of D. are like dead cards in your sideboard because of the way the deck wans to play in everything but the mirror match, an aggro deck does not switch to control after sideboarding effectively, it only switches aggro routes
The whole "control" sideboard seems to be an issue. When I was testing the deck, the sideboard was stuff like Last Grasp, Cremate, and Orzhov Pontiff. It was good stuff, but against the matchups I have a hardest time against it didn't really help out as much. It just turns out to be better to sideboard out all of your weenies and play bigger creatures. Dissention might bring more sideboard options, especially with the split cards. This deck could very easily go BRG as well with the next set, but we will have to see.
Why do you side your sideboard in against GBW control? It's still a better control deck than your's. And why do you play this instead of GBW control?
Is it? BWG control will probably side in weenie hate (Last Grasp, Pontiff, Rolling Spoil) while I am siding out my x/1 creatures. Sure, they will have Debtor's Knell and Skeletal Vampire (if they play him, some of them do), but they will also have atleast 4 dead cards that they sideboarded in (or maindecked and didn't side out). And you probably have Faith's Fetters on them (the BWG decks I tested against didn't play it much for some reason).
Also, Rolling Spoil doesn't cripple your mana base as much as you think. I thought it would at first, but then you have to realize that between the 12 dual lands you have 8 black sources, 8 green and 8 white. Adding the other lands brings the total to 11 each. So you don't get color screwed that badly.
No I don't. I just didn't talk about it much in the article. Read a couple pages back in the forums when I first started testing the deck and you hear about my worrying about it. Rolling Spoil is the reason I started the whole "control sideboard" deal. Because the matchup against BWG control was horrible.
And it still is. The solution to beating a bad matchup isn't to try and mimic it. Control can match you creature for creature, removal for removal, and then it'll drop a Knell, or a Helldozer, or Congregate for triple whatever. And you're still vunerable to Rolling Spoil.
And it still is. The solution to beating a bad matchup isn't to try and mimic it. Control can match you creature for creature, removal for removal, and then it'll drop a Knell, or a Helldozer, or Congregate for triple whatever. And you're still vunerable to Rolling Spoil.
How am I vulnerable to rolling spoil? I sideboard out all my weenies. Its land destruction, but thats the same as saying that I'm afraid of 4 Stone Rain... which I'm not.
And it still is. The solution to beating a bad matchup isn't to try and mimic it. Control can match you creature for creature, removal for removal, and then it'll drop a Knell, or a Helldozer, or Congregate for triple whatever. And you're still vunerable to Rolling Spoil.
You speak as if BWG control is the perfect deck. It's a good one, but it's not guaranteed 100% against the field as you seem to think.
You see, once we board out the weenie strategy, the BWG control player will board in his weenie hate. I'm sure Soldancer wasn't exaggerating how many control decks he's seen with 4 Rolling Spoil main because of the prevalence of Glare on MODO, but once we get rid of all the x/1 creatures Rolling Spoil may as well be a dead card. It turns into a very bad Creeping Mold.
We can match control removal for removal if we really put our topdecking skill into it. I'm not going to use the ideal to convince you, though.
BWG control is a bad matchup. It's kind of inevitable. Here's a hint: it's basically removal and bombs. That's always bad for aggro. Fortunately, once Dissension releases, BWG will become less popular since every color will have equal representation. I wouldn't be adverse to changing the colors around a bit once the last set hits; it all depends on the contents of the future set. Still, they can't get everything they need every game, especially with no draw spells (Moonlight Bargain's their best bet).
So until you can bring up testing results that prove BWG gets exactly what you say it gets every game, stop trying to convince us it does, because logic's telling me it won't.
This deck has great percentages against the rest of the field, though, as well BWG should. I've seen it tear everything apart, and that's why I suggest using it in your Block excursions. It can combine the best removal in the format with the best disruptive aggro I've ever seen.
Also, as for the Guildmages: the Selesnya one can be decent, yes, but the Golgari one is utter ****. It costs five man to activate it for a negligible effect, and 7 if they board in Suppression Field (which is highly likely when you're running Vitu-Ghazi, Ghost Council and two differen Guildmages). The Selesnya one can act as an Anthem, but in this deck that's really all it's good for. After that, those two guys are basically "possibly good" Bears. And as for Seize the Soul, the worst suggestion I think I've ever seen - the card is only good against Gruul and Izzet. Izzet decks are pretty damn lame, so I'm only going to worry about the Gruul matchup. And it's insanely good for this deck, pre and post. Pre-board you have life gain in the form of Hierarch and Council. Council's the greatest foil to Gruul ever, basically, and there's enough removal to take down Gruul's biggest guys outside of combat (not to mention this deck has a higher proportion of larger creatures). Seize the Soul has never been "mandatory" and I hope it never is.
I'm very interested in Rav-block constructed at the moment too, and run the U/W/R control, one of the archetypes you mentioned. As you rightly state, Electrolyze seriously messes up your beatdown plan. The solution to this deck that you posed in the article is to side in fetters, which is indeed valid against the angels. However, in my opinion, this is not the best sideboarding plan.
When I meet this archetype(B/W/G aggro), the first card i consider boarding in is Rain of Embers. I might cut a few counterspells, such as Frazzle and Convolute for the space. Rain of Embers is not only brilliant against your winnies, but is also an answer to Silhana Ledgewalker, the control killer!
The solution I pose here is, to board in your "Control Side". U/W/R lacks hard removal spells, and boarding out couterspells will also make the deck harder to cope with your monsters.
Thats all, and good look with your next article&deck!
Where's the Rusalka? Fetters can erase any headway you make early on, and without burn or Solifuge it's hard to recover. I suggest dropping the Ghost Councils for 'em.
Props on not running Blind Hunter, though.
My other big complaint is the over valuation of ledgewalker, the one unblockable point makes a difference in gruul when bloodhirst matters, but not here. The obviously correct card to replace it with is Selesnya Guildmage. Right now this is a white rush deck NOT playing a viable glorious anthem. See my point?
I play a deck very similarto this in FNM, and while I won't post the decklist here, as I don't want it copied, I will say it has an excellent record, and beats all those archetypes in the majority of games. Its only trouble matchup is land destruction, or Gruul on an excellent draw (you know, stomping grounds Kird ape turn 1, handful of burn, and burning tree shamans).
Anyway, you should give serious consideration to the true value of ledgewalker, reevaluate the Sideboard, look at options provided by both the golgari and selesnya guildmages.
I don't play block myself, but the article does address this point: the Ledgewalker is there because it's untargetable by the opponent. The idea isn't for it to be dealing 1, it's there to deal 4 when cloaked up.
(I'm on on this site much anymore. If you want to get in touch it's probably best to email me: dom@heffalumps.org)
Forum Awards: Best Writer 2005, Best Limited Strategist 2005-2012
5CB PotM - June 2005, November 2005, February 2006, April 2008, May 2008, Feb 2009
MTGSalvation Articles: 1-20, plus guest appearance on MTGCast #86!
<Limited Clan>
No I don't. I just didn't talk about it much in the article. Read a couple pages back in the forums when I first started testing the deck and you hear about my worrying about it. Rolling Spoil is the reason I started the whole "control sideboard" deal. Because the matchup against BWG control was horrible.
The whole "control" sideboard seems to be an issue. When I was testing the deck, the sideboard was stuff like Last Grasp, Cremate, and Orzhov Pontiff. It was good stuff, but against the matchups I have a hardest time against it didn't really help out as much. It just turns out to be better to sideboard out all of your weenies and play bigger creatures. Dissention might bring more sideboard options, especially with the split cards. This deck could very easily go BRG as well with the next set, but we will have to see.
Is it? BWG control will probably side in weenie hate (Last Grasp, Pontiff, Rolling Spoil) while I am siding out my x/1 creatures. Sure, they will have Debtor's Knell and Skeletal Vampire (if they play him, some of them do), but they will also have atleast 4 dead cards that they sideboarded in (or maindecked and didn't side out). And you probably have Faith's Fetters on them (the BWG decks I tested against didn't play it much for some reason).
Also, Rolling Spoil doesn't cripple your mana base as much as you think. I thought it would at first, but then you have to realize that between the 12 dual lands you have 8 black sources, 8 green and 8 white. Adding the other lands brings the total to 11 each. So you don't get color screwed that badly.
And it still is. The solution to beating a bad matchup isn't to try and mimic it. Control can match you creature for creature, removal for removal, and then it'll drop a Knell, or a Helldozer, or Congregate for triple whatever. And you're still vunerable to Rolling Spoil.
How am I vulnerable to rolling spoil? I sideboard out all my weenies. Its land destruction, but thats the same as saying that I'm afraid of 4 Stone Rain... which I'm not.
You speak as if BWG control is the perfect deck. It's a good one, but it's not guaranteed 100% against the field as you seem to think.
You see, once we board out the weenie strategy, the BWG control player will board in his weenie hate. I'm sure Soldancer wasn't exaggerating how many control decks he's seen with 4 Rolling Spoil main because of the prevalence of Glare on MODO, but once we get rid of all the x/1 creatures Rolling Spoil may as well be a dead card. It turns into a very bad Creeping Mold.
We can match control removal for removal if we really put our topdecking skill into it. I'm not going to use the ideal to convince you, though.
BWG control is a bad matchup. It's kind of inevitable. Here's a hint: it's basically removal and bombs. That's always bad for aggro. Fortunately, once Dissension releases, BWG will become less popular since every color will have equal representation. I wouldn't be adverse to changing the colors around a bit once the last set hits; it all depends on the contents of the future set. Still, they can't get everything they need every game, especially with no draw spells (Moonlight Bargain's their best bet).
So until you can bring up testing results that prove BWG gets exactly what you say it gets every game, stop trying to convince us it does, because logic's telling me it won't.
This deck has great percentages against the rest of the field, though, as well BWG should. I've seen it tear everything apart, and that's why I suggest using it in your Block excursions. It can combine the best removal in the format with the best disruptive aggro I've ever seen.
Also, as for the Guildmages: the Selesnya one can be decent, yes, but the Golgari one is utter ****. It costs five man to activate it for a negligible effect, and 7 if they board in Suppression Field (which is highly likely when you're running Vitu-Ghazi, Ghost Council and two differen Guildmages). The Selesnya one can act as an Anthem, but in this deck that's really all it's good for. After that, those two guys are basically "possibly good" Bears. And as for Seize the Soul, the worst suggestion I think I've ever seen - the card is only good against Gruul and Izzet. Izzet decks are pretty damn lame, so I'm only going to worry about the Gruul matchup. And it's insanely good for this deck, pre and post. Pre-board you have life gain in the form of Hierarch and Council. Council's the greatest foil to Gruul ever, basically, and there's enough removal to take down Gruul's biggest guys outside of combat (not to mention this deck has a higher proportion of larger creatures). Seize the Soul has never been "mandatory" and I hope it never is.
I'm very interested in Rav-block constructed at the moment too, and run the U/W/R control, one of the archetypes you mentioned. As you rightly state, Electrolyze seriously messes up your beatdown plan. The solution to this deck that you posed in the article is to side in fetters, which is indeed valid against the angels. However, in my opinion, this is not the best sideboarding plan.
When I meet this archetype(B/W/G aggro), the first card i consider boarding in is Rain of Embers. I might cut a few counterspells, such as Frazzle and Convolute for the space. Rain of Embers is not only brilliant against your winnies, but is also an answer to Silhana Ledgewalker, the control killer!
The solution I pose here is, to board in your "Control Side". U/W/R lacks hard removal spells, and boarding out couterspells will also make the deck harder to cope with your monsters.
Thats all, and good look with your next article&deck!
I'll remember that for next game.