As a mod, I sometimes see warnings and infractions left by other staff members and wonder if such action was even necessary. So I can understand why some nonstaff members get upset when they are given warnings/infractions.
I think the point was more that you don't necessarily have to be carebears and butterflies with a person to respect and treat them and their position them with decency.
I said "Like" not "carebears and butterflies with a person".
All the people I "Like" I respect. You don't have to be a carebear to be liked.
As a mod, I sometimes see warnings and infractions left by other staff members and wonder if such action was even necessary. So I can understand why some nonstaff members get upset when they are given warnings/infractions.
I liked the honesty and how you haven't made a condescending post, see how he isn't being a butterfly or a carebear in this post yet I have more respect for it than any mod post in this thread gals?
I said "Like" not "carebears and butterflies with a person".
All the people I "Like" I respect. You don't have to be a carebear to be liked.
I liked the honesty and how you haven't made a condescending post, see how he isn't being a butterfly or a carebear in this post yet I have more respect for it than any mod post in this thread gals?
I was going for visuals and a bit of hyperbole. Sorry. This thread needs more carebears to be honest... mostly because they are sort of funny and nobody can take them too serious.
What about Stardusts posts? I thought those were pretty good.
I was going for visuals and a bit of hyperbole. Sorry. This thread needs more carebears to be honest... mostly because they are sort of funny and nobody can take them too serious.
What about Stardusts posts? I thought those were pretty good.
I'm not judging posts with quality, urweak's post felt real and actually shows he can see the other point of view.
I really hate the plastic-ness that moderation has become.
I'm not judging posts with quality, urweak's post felt real and actually shows he can see the other point of view.
I really hate the plastic-ness that moderation has become.
Where has it become "plastic"? You guys love to rage in here but I want to see specific examples where you felt that it was mishandled. I know that we are all going to have slightly different angles on this (you are a goofball and I am an uptight curmudgeon ;)) but we still have to find a way to make it work. Trust me, when I see infractions that look overzealous we talk about it. When we see policy that feels paternal or condescending we talk about it. Talking doesn't do **** though.... so we look at things and figure out if change is necessary. I don't know if you (collectively) have even noticed but there have been some very core fundamental of this site being thrown out and the approach we are taking to moderation is changing. But that doesn't mean it will ever be the way you want it to be. It may get closer but isn't that what we all want?
Now is probably not the time to bring this up, but I am working on a new system of tiered infractions so that moderators have discretion in the calls they make. The fact that a minor spam is worth 1 point and being a massive dick (being a dick is now in the rules FYI) is worth 1 point is silly. So, I want my moderators to be able to crank it up for bad stuff and crank it down for little stuff. But these kinds of threads make a lot us really nervous about ever being able to make judgments calls. So yeah, guess why it comes across as plastic to a lot of people? Because the staff tired of being torn apart.
Also, zeal doesn't really seem to be the problem most people have nearly as much as over or under assessing problems.
Could you please elaborate that point? I have trouble understanding what type of moderation you are referring to.
I've had the discussion on community a bunch... you can read it there I honestly don't want to get really into it but I know gals understands what I'm on about.
And its good to hear gals. If you have read all my posts here I'm actually not really complaining about anything except that I want mods to be more real and that being liked helps the people you moderate accept you.
I know there has been changes and I'm looking forward to a new year, I just know that a few things need to be sorted out.
Yanni, every single mod and exmod you mentioned has been reprimanded in a variety of ways depending on the circumstances. Criticism is pointing out that someone did something wrong. It starts to become harassment when you can't let something go that happened months in the past and has already been dealt with appropriately. Let it go. Criticize the current mods for current issues all you want, but dredging up the past time and time again is not going to help make the mod team or this site any better.
I agree with this post.
Every single rule change I've seen (granted, not being active in every single forum I haven't seen every one) over the last year+ has been in the direction of making moderation more clear, giving users more avenues to appeal infractions, being more lenient with users, lowering the times for suspensions and bans, and overall being more focused on letting users just get back to enjoying the site.
I'm not sure what else one could ask for than that. Nothing in this world is perfect, but there is solid evidence of considerable work and updates being made to the rules on MTGS that directly benefit users by making it a more lenient and forgiving site, not more heavy handed or punitive. It's not fair to bash people for their past actions and not acknowledge the effort made to make things better.
I suspect that its something like, a member does X and receives Y punishment. Like a mindless automaton. Without any room for leeway or understanding.
Also, did someone ask for more Carebears?
Some places want more some places want less. Each subforum gets to decide how they deal with minor things. As far as doling out the punishments, yeah, that's what I was talking about... I hate that we have people suspended for 3 spam posts in Market Street and some racist bigoutous yak anus sitting on 2 infractions.
Its really unfair to make blanket statements about "the staff" as a whole. Criticism should be about specific staff members and their behavior in specific situations. We should get away from flaming "the staff" or white knighting for "the staff" and just talk about who has done a good job and who hasn't.
It would be nice if the Admins were more public about how they evaluate the staff in this respect though. I think there are some staff members here who have made some mistakes that have not really been adequately addressed. I'm not meaning to use this thread as a venue to discuss any of that though, only to point out that a public accounting is probably long overdue.
Is it a bad thing that you are "listening to this stuff".
OOooooooh, you thought that might have had the "I am your boss watching over you so be careful what you say" tone?
No that's not what I meant at all. Really, I take in all feedback and suggestions so your comments and those of the other people in here are actually being listened to. I get the feeling that some people have an issue and feel like there is nowhere to go with it.
Hi Teia. I hope everything is well. I vaguely remember seeing a post in which another current mod was referring to users as scumbags. If I remember correctly, this post went unpunished.
One, I'm a relatively new member of the community. I got an infraction a few weeks ago for something I did a few months ago. As a former beta forums moderator for a large MMORPG I felt like this was pretty unnecessary and to be honest, my respect for this service dropped considerably. I felt that a warning at worse or a clarification at best was warranted.
Two, and most importantly. Notice what I said there? Service. We are guests. MTGS is providing a great free service and if I dont like it I can leave. Or I can be sure to double check each set of rules, check them often for any changes and continue to use their amazing service.
Well, the two instances she mentioned are exactly the two I linked. If those aren't what you are looking for, it sort of looks like you are baiting some kind of a response.
They are obviously not what I'm looking for. What I am saying is I believe there to be another such post that went unpunished, and am asking Teia if she knows anything about it. I appreciate your concern, though.
If you remember seeing it, perhaps you should locate the post and bring it up here for reference so it can be discussed? Its really hard to have a discussion about something with a reference to work from.
If people have an issue with specific instances of something that the mods did or with an infraction that they received, we have plenty of tools in place to help deal with that.
One thing I wish people would do less in these sorts of discussions, especially when people are asking for more information about the meaning of something someone has said, is similar to what pink floyd said a few posts ago: "I've had the discussion on community a bunch... you can read it there I honestly don't want to get really into it but I know gals understands what I'm on about." We shouldnt have to go searching for it, if you want people to listen to your point or given it any creedance, you need to post it here in the thread you bring it up. Im certain it wouldnt take much effort to provide a brief explanation of what you mean, and then the discussion could continue on from there.
And yes, certain parts of the site are less lenient, parts like the rulings forum (where people go quite often to find specific and accurate examples of how the rules work, everything needs to be straightforward and on point if its going to be posted there, as it should be.) Or parts like the Market Street in general (As mentioned, this part of the forums is dealing with real money and value worth of merchandise, the mods have to do a ton in this part of the forums to make sure that these aspects run as smoothly as possible and people can feel confident and comfortable in trusting others with their money/cards accordingly)
What I like to see is people bringing up things they disagree with and would like to see changed, but doing so with full disclosure of the issue at hand (quotes/links/etc, be specific and thorough, dont be vague), be thorough in how you would suggest on making it better, and most of all, do so in a respectful and polite manner without any negative tones to the posting. Doing the above is what will lead you to the possibility of having real change. Refusing to do the above, will result in nothing changing, and just create more problems in general.
What I do think might help though, as this is something that was implemented more recently on an online game I play, is more full disclosure about when mods are found to have broken the rules and any punishments they have received. I think it makes the users feel like something is actually being done, and its not just being swept under the rug, when they can see more clearly that something was done and how it was handled. The disclosure would have to be handled carefully of course.
Perhaps you shouldn't concern yourself with my questions. I don't care what you think is hard because you're not a mod here, and you're definitely not the mod I asked about the situation.
Not really sure why you have to be rude to people who just want to see the post. You are trying to have an isolated conversation with one person in a thread that is public; you brought the post up in a public forum, and then turned around and got snide with people who asked about it. Why not just link it? Teia can still reply and everyone else can know what you are on about; if not why don't you just private message her instead of shutting people down like that here. It seems like whatever it is you are talking about is a private matter, and should probably be dealt with in private.
I would like to see it as well. I believe Teia knows more about it than me.
So you haven't actually seen it then? Why not just say that instead of "Don't concern yourself with my questions." You aren't a mod either. You aren't any more superior than anyone else in this thread either. I don't think jeff or anyone else deserved the response they got from you. It would have been far simpler and negated even talking about this if you had just said "I haven't seen it, Teia has."
I was responding to a post Teia made with a question to Teia. It's not a hard concept to grasp.
Right, but you brought up what was perceived as a specific instance of a mod doing something wrong. That's what the entire thread is about, so of course people were curious to see it.
Maybe those people, including you, should not concern themselves with my questions. You're not a mod here, and you're definitely not the mod I asked in response to a statement made by that mod. If you have a problem with something I'm saying or how I'm saying it, maybe you should put me on your ignore list
I don't put people on ignore, it is pointless and you miss out on parts of the conversation. All I was saying is maybe you could respond in a nicer way, I don't understand why you have to shut people down like that. I know I am not a mod here, but that doesn't make what I have to say any less valid, and certainly not any less valid than what you have to say. Again, there was clearly a misunderstanding based on who knew what, and it seems people thought you actually knew the post in question, which you clearly don't.
I've never had any private matters with Teia.
Right, but you are trying to have a conversation with Teia and Teia alone, but you are doing it here, in an open thread, where people should have the right to respond to what you say. If you don't want people to reply or ask you questions - and you clearly do not - you should have private messaged her.
The level of moderation does seem to depend a lot on the board you're posting on.
I got suspended within my first few weeks of accumulating infractions for doing terrible things such as making a joke about card wording in the rules forum or for comparing MTGS to the world in the movie of Demolition Man by just posting a link to a clip.
The final infraction that got me suspended was posting "QED" in response to the infraction.
Apparently it's considered spamming when you post with brevity.
Apparently it's considered spamming when you post with brevity.
Brevity is fine. The issue is whether or not you're conveying a discrete message, as well as how clearly that message is conveyed and how relevant that message is to the topic at hand. For instance, if someone asks you a simple yes/no question, there's nothing wrong with posting "Yes" and leaving it there. You're clearly answering the question. But in cases where the short post doesn't add anything to the discussion (or doesn't appear to), or in cases where it's not on topic, it counts as spam.
Basically, when posting, ask yourself whether the average reader will see your post as a discrete, on topic message. You know what point you're trying to make when you post a Youtube video or a "QED," but that doesn't mean others will know if it's not explained.
I think if a post broke a rule, the moderators instructions are to give an infraction and so on. So it isn't a discussion about overzealous moderators as it is a discussion on whether the rules they follow are valid. As far as I'm concerned the rules and mods are there to make MTGS a better environment for all.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not." - John Lennon
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BW Multiplayer Control WB
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UMerfolkU
B MBMC B
I said "Like" not "carebears and butterflies with a person".
All the people I "Like" I respect. You don't have to be a carebear to be liked.
I liked the honesty and how you haven't made a condescending post, see how he isn't being a butterfly or a carebear in this post yet I have more respect for it than any mod post in this thread gals?
LOL
I was going for visuals and a bit of hyperbole. Sorry. This thread needs more carebears to be honest... mostly because they are sort of funny and nobody can take them too serious.
What about Stardusts posts? I thought those were pretty good.
WUBRGPauper Battle BoxWUBRG ... and why I am not a fan of Wayne Reynolds' Illustrations.
"Sort of funny and not to be taken seriously"
...
maybe that is me...
I'm not judging posts with quality, urweak's post felt real and actually shows he can see the other point of view.
I really hate the plastic-ness that moderation has become.
LOL
Where has it become "plastic"? You guys love to rage in here but I want to see specific examples where you felt that it was mishandled. I know that we are all going to have slightly different angles on this (you are a goofball and I am an uptight curmudgeon ;)) but we still have to find a way to make it work. Trust me, when I see infractions that look overzealous we talk about it. When we see policy that feels paternal or condescending we talk about it. Talking doesn't do **** though.... so we look at things and figure out if change is necessary. I don't know if you (collectively) have even noticed but there have been some very core fundamental of this site being thrown out and the approach we are taking to moderation is changing. But that doesn't mean it will ever be the way you want it to be. It may get closer but isn't that what we all want?
Now is probably not the time to bring this up, but I am working on a new system of tiered infractions so that moderators have discretion in the calls they make. The fact that a minor spam is worth 1 point and being a massive dick (being a dick is now in the rules FYI) is worth 1 point is silly. So, I want my moderators to be able to crank it up for bad stuff and crank it down for little stuff. But these kinds of threads make a lot us really nervous about ever being able to make judgments calls. So yeah, guess why it comes across as plastic to a lot of people? Because the staff tired of being torn apart.
Also, zeal doesn't really seem to be the problem most people have nearly as much as over or under assessing problems.
WUBRGPauper Battle BoxWUBRG ... and why I am not a fan of Wayne Reynolds' Illustrations.
I've had the discussion on community a bunch... you can read it there I honestly don't want to get really into it but I know gals understands what I'm on about.
And its good to hear gals. If you have read all my posts here I'm actually not really complaining about anything except that I want mods to be more real and that being liked helps the people you moderate accept you.
I know there has been changes and I'm looking forward to a new year, I just know that a few things need to be sorted out.
LOL
I suspect that its something like, a member does X and receives Y punishment. Like a mindless automaton. Without any room for leeway or understanding.
Also, did someone ask for more Carebears?
BUWGRChilds PlayGRWUB
BUWGR Highlander GRWUB
UBSquee's Shapeshifting PetBU
BW Multiplayer Control WB
RG Changeling GR
UR Mana FlareRU
UMerfolkU
B MBMC B
I agree with this post.
Every single rule change I've seen (granted, not being active in every single forum I haven't seen every one) over the last year+ has been in the direction of making moderation more clear, giving users more avenues to appeal infractions, being more lenient with users, lowering the times for suspensions and bans, and overall being more focused on letting users just get back to enjoying the site.
I'm not sure what else one could ask for than that. Nothing in this world is perfect, but there is solid evidence of considerable work and updates being made to the rules on MTGS that directly benefit users by making it a more lenient and forgiving site, not more heavy handed or punitive. It's not fair to bash people for their past actions and not acknowledge the effort made to make things better.
Some places want more some places want less. Each subforum gets to decide how they deal with minor things. As far as doling out the punishments, yeah, that's what I was talking about... I hate that we have people suspended for 3 spam posts in Market Street and some racist bigoutous yak anus sitting on 2 infractions.
You know I am listening to this stuff, right?
WUBRGPauper Battle BoxWUBRG ... and why I am not a fan of Wayne Reynolds' Illustrations.
Is that a bad thing?
BUWGRChilds PlayGRWUB
BUWGR Highlander GRWUB
UBSquee's Shapeshifting PetBU
BW Multiplayer Control WB
RG Changeling GR
UR Mana FlareRU
UMerfolkU
B MBMC B
Is what a bad thing?
WUBRGPauper Battle BoxWUBRG ... and why I am not a fan of Wayne Reynolds' Illustrations.
It would be nice if the Admins were more public about how they evaluate the staff in this respect though. I think there are some staff members here who have made some mistakes that have not really been adequately addressed. I'm not meaning to use this thread as a venue to discuss any of that though, only to point out that a public accounting is probably long overdue.
Is it a bad thing that you are "listening to this stuff".
BUWGRChilds PlayGRWUB
BUWGR Highlander GRWUB
UBSquee's Shapeshifting PetBU
BW Multiplayer Control WB
RG Changeling GR
UR Mana FlareRU
UMerfolkU
B MBMC B
No that's not what I meant at all. Really, I take in all feedback and suggestions so your comments and those of the other people in here are actually being listened to. I get the feeling that some people have an issue and feel like there is nowhere to go with it.
This post?
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=9072532&postcount=170
Or this one?
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=9063883&postcount=5
Those are old issues and no longer relevant.
WUBRGPauper Battle BoxWUBRG ... and why I am not a fan of Wayne Reynolds' Illustrations.
One, I'm a relatively new member of the community. I got an infraction a few weeks ago for something I did a few months ago. As a former beta forums moderator for a large MMORPG I felt like this was pretty unnecessary and to be honest, my respect for this service dropped considerably. I felt that a warning at worse or a clarification at best was warranted.
Two, and most importantly. Notice what I said there? Service. We are guests. MTGS is providing a great free service and if I dont like it I can leave. Or I can be sure to double check each set of rules, check them often for any changes and continue to use their amazing service.
For free.
WUBRGPauper Battle BoxWUBRG ... and why I am not a fan of Wayne Reynolds' Illustrations.
WUBRGPauper Battle BoxWUBRG ... and why I am not a fan of Wayne Reynolds' Illustrations.
If you remember seeing it, perhaps you should locate the post and bring it up here for reference so it can be discussed? Its really hard to have a discussion about something with a reference to work from.
If people have an issue with specific instances of something that the mods did or with an infraction that they received, we have plenty of tools in place to help deal with that.
One thing I wish people would do less in these sorts of discussions, especially when people are asking for more information about the meaning of something someone has said, is similar to what pink floyd said a few posts ago: "I've had the discussion on community a bunch... you can read it there I honestly don't want to get really into it but I know gals understands what I'm on about." We shouldnt have to go searching for it, if you want people to listen to your point or given it any creedance, you need to post it here in the thread you bring it up. Im certain it wouldnt take much effort to provide a brief explanation of what you mean, and then the discussion could continue on from there.
And yes, certain parts of the site are less lenient, parts like the rulings forum (where people go quite often to find specific and accurate examples of how the rules work, everything needs to be straightforward and on point if its going to be posted there, as it should be.) Or parts like the Market Street in general (As mentioned, this part of the forums is dealing with real money and value worth of merchandise, the mods have to do a ton in this part of the forums to make sure that these aspects run as smoothly as possible and people can feel confident and comfortable in trusting others with their money/cards accordingly)
What I like to see is people bringing up things they disagree with and would like to see changed, but doing so with full disclosure of the issue at hand (quotes/links/etc, be specific and thorough, dont be vague), be thorough in how you would suggest on making it better, and most of all, do so in a respectful and polite manner without any negative tones to the posting. Doing the above is what will lead you to the possibility of having real change. Refusing to do the above, will result in nothing changing, and just create more problems in general.
What I do think might help though, as this is something that was implemented more recently on an online game I play, is more full disclosure about when mods are found to have broken the rules and any punishments they have received. I think it makes the users feel like something is actually being done, and its not just being swept under the rug, when they can see more clearly that something was done and how it was handled. The disclosure would have to be handled carefully of course.
Not really sure why you have to be rude to people who just want to see the post. You are trying to have an isolated conversation with one person in a thread that is public; you brought the post up in a public forum, and then turned around and got snide with people who asked about it. Why not just link it? Teia can still reply and everyone else can know what you are on about; if not why don't you just private message her instead of shutting people down like that here. It seems like whatever it is you are talking about is a private matter, and should probably be dealt with in private.
So you haven't actually seen it then? Why not just say that instead of "Don't concern yourself with my questions." You aren't a mod either. You aren't any more superior than anyone else in this thread either. I don't think jeff or anyone else deserved the response they got from you. It would have been far simpler and negated even talking about this if you had just said "I haven't seen it, Teia has."
Right, but you brought up what was perceived as a specific instance of a mod doing something wrong. That's what the entire thread is about, so of course people were curious to see it.
I don't put people on ignore, it is pointless and you miss out on parts of the conversation. All I was saying is maybe you could respond in a nicer way, I don't understand why you have to shut people down like that. I know I am not a mod here, but that doesn't make what I have to say any less valid, and certainly not any less valid than what you have to say. Again, there was clearly a misunderstanding based on who knew what, and it seems people thought you actually knew the post in question, which you clearly don't.
Right, but you are trying to have a conversation with Teia and Teia alone, but you are doing it here, in an open thread, where people should have the right to respond to what you say. If you don't want people to reply or ask you questions - and you clearly do not - you should have private messaged her.
EDIT:
Opened.
WUBRGPauper Battle BoxWUBRG ... and why I am not a fan of Wayne Reynolds' Illustrations.
I got suspended within my first few weeks of accumulating infractions for doing terrible things such as making a joke about card wording in the rules forum or for comparing MTGS to the world in the movie of Demolition Man by just posting a link to a clip.
The final infraction that got me suspended was posting "QED" in response to the infraction.
Apparently it's considered spamming when you post with brevity.
Brevity is fine. The issue is whether or not you're conveying a discrete message, as well as how clearly that message is conveyed and how relevant that message is to the topic at hand. For instance, if someone asks you a simple yes/no question, there's nothing wrong with posting "Yes" and leaving it there. You're clearly answering the question. But in cases where the short post doesn't add anything to the discussion (or doesn't appear to), or in cases where it's not on topic, it counts as spam.
Basically, when posting, ask yourself whether the average reader will see your post as a discrete, on topic message. You know what point you're trying to make when you post a Youtube video or a "QED," but that doesn't mean others will know if it's not explained.