I took a look at the practice of predatory shipping in MTG. Predatory shipping occurs where low purchase consumers are overcharged for shipping costs, while large purchase consumers get free shipping.
As explained:
Let's say you play in a group of 6 players. One player makes a purchase of $50 and qualifies for free shipping. The other players each make a purchase of around $6.50 and are charged $2.50 for shipping- but the actual shipping costs are only $1.71. The five players who are overpaying for shipping are basically subsidizing the sixth player. Again, there is nothing wrong with charging the actual shipping costs or waiving those costs if a purchase threshold is reached, the problem lies in cases where there is a shipping overcharge.
Mmm we knew this already right? Almost all stores overcharge for shipping. Very few stores charge for shipping at cost, and this especially extends to eBay where some sellers grossly overcharge on 'handling'. At least you were shopping at a store that offers free shipping after your order hits X amount. Many stores don't even offer this...
Shipping rates are just as much about losses as they are about deals.
This isn't subsidize the high spender as much as it is about protect the store in case cards get lost.
$2.50 is hardly predatory.
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As long as the shipping rates are clearly set forth then there is no reason to complain...just shop elsewhere if you don't like the shipping costs of one seller. I'm not sure this thread had a point worth discussing...
If you read the print in the explanation of "shipping charges" it usually has the word "handling". This is the sellers way of explaining the extra costs on top of the shipping rate. This is a perfectly legitimate way for the "company" to account for a higher-than-rate cost on lower priced, individual items.
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when i saw the title i tought this topic was about those annoying ebay sellers who have cheap prices and shipping rates of 50 or more dollar.. be careful
Yeah I thought it would be this too. That's actually predatory.
This guy is arguing about nothing. $1 vs 64 cents? Honestly? The store is just rounding up and protecting themselves from spending their own money on shipping.
Also, many of these retailers sell board games, which are NOT cheap to ship. I sold a bunch of my collection and ended up forking over $10-15 a pop for each one. My guess is it's just a tactic to make it "worth the effort" to send out the product. People will spend the extra to get free shipping, it's a bigger sale, and more product goes out the door. If you order 4x Rampant Growth... why should I offer free shipping? If you're buying 4x Lilliana... well sure, I'll throw in a pokemon stricker too!
First class parcel shipping with DC is approx $1.75. Add to that bubble mailers: approx .10, label paper: approx .10, toploader and sleeve: approx .10, so that 1.75 becomes $2.00-$2.05. Plus paypal charges sellers a percentage of the whole purchase including shipping charges. So thats another .08 or so, (up to $2.10-$2.15). Not to mention if you are buying from ebay, then ebay charges 11% on the shipping as well, which would be another about .25, and you have $2.30-$2.40 in actual cost. Based upon that, overall with just the costs associated with the shipping and handling only, and figuring a reasonable, but small handling charge, $2.50 seems absolutely fine to me. Above $2.50 I would question however.
I have no problem with places offering free shipping for when you reach a certain dollar amount. Places like Amazon do this to encourage you to buy a few additional items so that you can save the ~$4 on shipping. The extra sales brought in by this can offset the actual shipping costs.
I think the focus of "predatory shipping" should be eBay sellers that do not combine shipping. There have been a few times I won two or more auctions from the sale seller, and I was charged the sum of the individual card's shipping costs (ie, shipping was listed as $2.50, won two cards, charge $5). This happens all the time and a lot of sellers get away with it because they do not list "combined shipping" in their auction descriptions.
First class parcel shipping with DC is approx $1.75. Add to that bubble mailers: approx .10, label paper: approx .10, toploader and sleeve: approx .10, so that 1.75 becomes $2.00-$2.05. Plus paypal charges sellers a percentage of the whole purchase including shipping charges. So thats another .08 or so, (up to $2.10-$2.15). Not to mention if you are buying from ebay, then ebay charges 11% on the shipping as well, which would be another about .25, and you have $2.30-$2.40 in actual cost. Based upon that, overall with just the costs associated with the shipping and handling only, and figuring a reasonable, but small handling charge, $2.50 seems absolutely fine to me. Above $2.50 I would question however.
This is how I've always rationalized my $2.50 shipping charges; they may have to go to $2.75 or $3 for eBay though.
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For individual cards under $10 though, $3 is a pretty insane percentage. I know sellers want to be fully covered when shipping (which includes DC etc) but given the increases in ebay fees and actual shipping costs, the incentive for the buyer to fork it over has gone down in my estimation.
As unappealing as it sounds, I think the sellers biting the bullet on cheap purchases and just sending in plain envelopes might be the way to go. The shipping cost paid by the buyer would be halved, while still giving some breathing room to sellers. The instances of lost mail (or claims of lost mail) would also subsequently go up, but the increased number of sales would probably make up for it.
I think it will all ultimately balance out though, as a mark up in shipping will probably mean a proportional decrease in price of the actual cards. For the buyer it's the same overall price, but it's less money for the sellers. Who knows what kind of snowball effects there'd be though.
The shipping cost includes handling costs. Also on ebay the shipping costs on cards are not really relevant as buyers tend to price the item with the shipping as a whole. This is made easier when you can sort the "buy it now" items by cost + shipping.
I think it will all ultimately balance out though, as a mark up in shipping will probably mean a proportional decrease in price of the actual cards. For the buyer it's the same overall price, but it's less money for the sellers. Who knows what kind of snowball effects there'd be though.
The shipping cost includes handling costs. Also on ebay the shipping costs on cards are not really relevant as buyers tend to price the item with the shipping as a whole. This is made easier when you can sort the "buy it now" items by cost + shipping.
^This (these?)...charge whatever you want for shipping on eBay, as buyers will factor shipping in on the total cost anyway. You also now get charged a fee on shipping by eBay, so there really is no incentive to charge for shipping at all anymore. Especially when you take DSRs into account.
What exactly is a handling cost? Should I be paying extra money for the act of inserting the card into a top loader, then putting it into an envelope and sealing it? I don't pay a handling cost when I go to a shoe store and someone has to go into the back to look for the size I want.
Dangit OMNI I'd have to say, the costs of 'handling' should definitely not be a consideration unless it actually requires a trip to the post office (only larger international/registered mail really requires this). Anyway, there's numerous eBay examples of 'handling' where people cite precisely their time to find cards in binders, people have got to learn how to sort their cards.
To this point, as a customer what I'd like to be able to do is cite the value of my time browsing for their cards electronically and checking out vs the value of theirs in finding the cards physically, and resolve it by calling it even, which is of course in their favor since card-finders in the stores I've seen earn pretty low wages ^^
PS. I see the discussion is now only about EBAY which was never mentioned in the original link or thread. Congrats. Mission Censorship accomplished.
Your $0.36 crusade has been censored :o!
You were using this site to try and advertise your blog, it makes sense but the people that run this place decided they don't want advertisers coming in. I think that's pretty reasonable.
You actually DO pay for handling costs, since in the amount you pay for your shoes over the production costs, is accounted also the monthly check of that "someone" (plus several other things).
You're paying time to find the card through binders (high in case of big orders or huge sales), pack it carefully, go to the post office, eventually waiting for the queue for registered orders and such.
Plus the physical cost of sleeves, double sleeves, toploaders, bubble mailers and other packaging needs.
For small orders, these things add quickly.
Also, the times my buyers pay slightly more compensate ones in which I charged them less. Sometimes a 20gr parcel is accounted for 21gr, and that's 1.5$ more here...
I disagree. If I go to a shoe store and the person brings out the shoes or cannot find them, but I decide I don't want them after all, do I owe them a handling cost? If I go to a sporting goods shop and ask the sales clerk to help with a list of items, but then decide not to buy all of the items, do they charge me a handling fee for pulling the items I did not purchase? If I go to Channel Fireball's storefront with a list of cards I need, have them pulled for me, then decide not to buy them all, will they charge me a handling fee? The answers to these questions is no.
The cost of these should be factored into the price of the item itself, not added on as an additional surcharge. Asking for one shows that they are either not pricing their items correctly, or they are trying to throw in additional "predatory" costs.
Well, shipping and handling costs vary depending on the amount of cards involved, therefore making it hard to add those prices into the prices of the cards themselves. For example, buying one card or three cards will require the same trip to the post office, not three different trips.
You were using this site to try and advertise your blog, it makes sense but the people that run this place decided they don't want advertisers coming in. I think that's pretty reasonable.
It is not an advertisement. I'm not selling a pharmaceuticals or something. It's news on a website. The fact is, if the same story ran on Gamespot, and I linked to it, it would get through. The fact that it is my own website does not change the information- information that people themselves should be able to determine whether or not they want to read.
My site receives no revenue from any source. It is not monetized- unlike MTGSalvation.
This is a classic case of "occult" censorship in which a rule is abused to restrict the free flow of information.
We've come a long way from the days in which a BBS Admin would fight to preserve the free flow of information. Now almost every board is sanitized by spineless mods. Increasingly most forums, are merely playgrounds for bullies acting under the banner mod.
You could completely disagree with everything I said about predatory shipping and that would be fine with me. I just don't see the harm, however, in opening the discussion. Linking to detailed content is important. I also see no point in letting anyone but the forum users decide what they want to read.
This was not spam. This was not advertisement. This was thoughtful and relevant information to purchasers of Magic cards and Magic players.
you were advertising your blog, if that were allowed then many people would create threads and link to their sites/blogs in the first post.
If you didn't care about your site you wouldn't have linked it and would have just posted what you wanted to say.
No, actually my site contained supporting video. The removal is an act of cowardice. I suppose under your reasoning, they should also remove the link to the imgurs of the "infraction" notices as well. After all, its a promotion of my IMGUR pictures.
Here's the thing: I've been ridiculed, and now somewhat censored, and in the end, the whole point was to help players find a way to either save money or not screw each other over. I suppose the joke is on me, since I spent money and time to try to bring this to light with the hope the information might lead to change.
PS. I see the discussion is now only about EBAY which was never mentioned in the original link or thread. Congrats. Mission Censorship accomplished.
Feel free to substitute whatever store or means of purchasing cards you prefer for eBay in the discussion...the point still remains: buyers factor the cost of shipping into the total cost of their purchasing decisions. A playset of Day of Judgment for $3.99 with free shipping should be looked at the same as a set of Day of Judgment for $0.99 plus $3 shipping -- one place isn't really cheaper than the other in this made-up example, and people will choose to shop at whatever store that offers the best price + shipping for their MTG purchasing needs, large or small. That same place that offers $3 shipping might then offer free shipping for orders over a certain amount. The buyer must then weigh whether or not it's worth it to them to go ahead and make a larger purchase. It's not a predatory tactic, it's a basic marketing strategy to incentivize buyers into perhaps purchasing more than they normally would have. Plus, as others have mentioned, there are costs associated above and beyond that of just shipping. May as well put that cost on people purchasing smaller orders.
There's no need to get all hot and bothered about a discussion that's still relevant to your OP. And there's especially no need to get hot and bothered about two meaningless (and easily preventable) Warnings and an Infraction...that's hardly sending you spiraling down a path towards a banning. If people are missing whatever point you were trying to convey, then use your words to clarify your point instead of throwing a fit.
There's no need to get all hot and bothered about a discussion that's still relevant to your OP. And there's especially no need to get hot and bothered about two meaningless (and easily preventable) Warnings and an Infraction...that's hardly sending you spiraling down a path towards a banning. If people are missing whatever point you were trying to convey, then use your words to clarify your point instead of throwing a fit.
Here's what you don't understand, every forum has its own set of completely stupid rules and in some cases even the subforums have stupid rules. All of the forum mods act the same way on all of the sites because they are all apparently trained to do the same thing. I can be as on point as possible and the post will still get removed.
If I posted this to reddit/r/gamernews it would be removed as "opinion", if I posted this to Gamespot forums it would probably get banned, and I won't even waste my time trying to post to a place like the Escapist or Craigslist anymore. Look, different forum, exact same pattern.
So, I'm just saying, ban me or not, this forum is clearly as useless as the others. It's a fake forum. If my relevant links are removed, someone else's relevant links are probably also being removed so any interesting information will just disappear.
Complaining about $2.50 shipping as "predatory"? Might as well call someone an ecoterrorist for not recycling a bottle of coke.
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As explained:
Let's say you play in a group of 6 players. One player makes a purchase of $50 and qualifies for free shipping. The other players each make a purchase of around $6.50 and are charged $2.50 for shipping- but the actual shipping costs are only $1.71. The five players who are overpaying for shipping are basically subsidizing the sixth player. Again, there is nothing wrong with charging the actual shipping costs or waiving those costs if a purchase threshold is reached, the problem lies in cases where there is a shipping overcharge.
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This isn't subsidize the high spender as much as it is about protect the store in case cards get lost.
$2.50 is hardly predatory.
Yeah I thought it would be this too. That's actually predatory.
This guy is arguing about nothing. $1 vs 64 cents? Honestly? The store is just rounding up and protecting themselves from spending their own money on shipping.
It's a pretty dumb thing to fight.
I think the focus of "predatory shipping" should be eBay sellers that do not combine shipping. There have been a few times I won two or more auctions from the sale seller, and I was charged the sum of the individual card's shipping costs (ie, shipping was listed as $2.50, won two cards, charge $5). This happens all the time and a lot of sellers get away with it because they do not list "combined shipping" in their auction descriptions.
This is how I've always rationalized my $2.50 shipping charges; they may have to go to $2.75 or $3 for eBay though.
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As unappealing as it sounds, I think the sellers biting the bullet on cheap purchases and just sending in plain envelopes might be the way to go. The shipping cost paid by the buyer would be halved, while still giving some breathing room to sellers. The instances of lost mail (or claims of lost mail) would also subsequently go up, but the increased number of sales would probably make up for it.
I think it will all ultimately balance out though, as a mark up in shipping will probably mean a proportional decrease in price of the actual cards. For the buyer it's the same overall price, but it's less money for the sellers. Who knows what kind of snowball effects there'd be though.
^This (these?)...charge whatever you want for shipping on eBay, as buyers will factor shipping in on the total cost anyway. You also now get charged a fee on shipping by eBay, so there really is no incentive to charge for shipping at all anymore. Especially when you take DSRs into account.
--S
To this point, as a customer what I'd like to be able to do is cite the value of my time browsing for their cards electronically and checking out vs the value of theirs in finding the cards physically, and resolve it by calling it even, which is of course in their favor since card-finders in the stores I've seen earn pretty low wages ^^
PS. I see the discussion is now only about EBAY which was never mentioned in the original link or thread. Congrats. Mission Censorship accomplished.
Your $0.36 crusade has been censored :o!
You were using this site to try and advertise your blog, it makes sense but the people that run this place decided they don't want advertisers coming in. I think that's pretty reasonable.
I disagree. If I go to a shoe store and the person brings out the shoes or cannot find them, but I decide I don't want them after all, do I owe them a handling cost? If I go to a sporting goods shop and ask the sales clerk to help with a list of items, but then decide not to buy all of the items, do they charge me a handling fee for pulling the items I did not purchase? If I go to Channel Fireball's storefront with a list of cards I need, have them pulled for me, then decide not to buy them all, will they charge me a handling fee? The answers to these questions is no.
The cost of these should be factored into the price of the item itself, not added on as an additional surcharge. Asking for one shows that they are either not pricing their items correctly, or they are trying to throw in additional "predatory" costs.
--S
It is not an advertisement. I'm not selling a pharmaceuticals or something. It's news on a website. The fact is, if the same story ran on Gamespot, and I linked to it, it would get through. The fact that it is my own website does not change the information- information that people themselves should be able to determine whether or not they want to read.
My site receives no revenue from any source. It is not monetized- unlike MTGSalvation.
This is a classic case of "occult" censorship in which a rule is abused to restrict the free flow of information.
We've come a long way from the days in which a BBS Admin would fight to preserve the free flow of information. Now almost every board is sanitized by spineless mods. Increasingly most forums, are merely playgrounds for bullies acting under the banner mod.
You could completely disagree with everything I said about predatory shipping and that would be fine with me. I just don't see the harm, however, in opening the discussion. Linking to detailed content is important. I also see no point in letting anyone but the forum users decide what they want to read.
This was not spam. This was not advertisement. This was thoughtful and relevant information to purchasers of Magic cards and Magic players.
I'll say it again- playground bullies.
If you didn't care about your site you wouldn't have linked it and would have just posted what you wanted to say.
No, actually my site contained supporting video. The removal is an act of cowardice. I suppose under your reasoning, they should also remove the link to the imgurs of the "infraction" notices as well. After all, its a promotion of my IMGUR pictures.
Here's the thing: I've been ridiculed, and now somewhat censored, and in the end, the whole point was to help players find a way to either save money or not screw each other over. I suppose the joke is on me, since I spent money and time to try to bring this to light with the hope the information might lead to change.
Feel free to substitute whatever store or means of purchasing cards you prefer for eBay in the discussion...the point still remains: buyers factor the cost of shipping into the total cost of their purchasing decisions. A playset of Day of Judgment for $3.99 with free shipping should be looked at the same as a set of Day of Judgment for $0.99 plus $3 shipping -- one place isn't really cheaper than the other in this made-up example, and people will choose to shop at whatever store that offers the best price + shipping for their MTG purchasing needs, large or small. That same place that offers $3 shipping might then offer free shipping for orders over a certain amount. The buyer must then weigh whether or not it's worth it to them to go ahead and make a larger purchase. It's not a predatory tactic, it's a basic marketing strategy to incentivize buyers into perhaps purchasing more than they normally would have. Plus, as others have mentioned, there are costs associated above and beyond that of just shipping. May as well put that cost on people purchasing smaller orders.
There's no need to get all hot and bothered about a discussion that's still relevant to your OP. And there's especially no need to get hot and bothered about two meaningless (and easily preventable) Warnings and an Infraction...that's hardly sending you spiraling down a path towards a banning. If people are missing whatever point you were trying to convey, then use your words to clarify your point instead of throwing a fit.
Here's what you don't understand, every forum has its own set of completely stupid rules and in some cases even the subforums have stupid rules. All of the forum mods act the same way on all of the sites because they are all apparently trained to do the same thing. I can be as on point as possible and the post will still get removed.
If I posted this to reddit/r/gamernews it would be removed as "opinion", if I posted this to Gamespot forums it would probably get banned, and I won't even waste my time trying to post to a place like the Escapist or Craigslist anymore. Look, different forum, exact same pattern.
So, I'm just saying, ban me or not, this forum is clearly as useless as the others. It's a fake forum. If my relevant links are removed, someone else's relevant links are probably also being removed so any interesting information will just disappear.
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