I'm planning on building a standard-legal Battle of Wits deck, and I need some help. I mean, besides telling me not to do it.
If I play it in tournaments, what's a good quick shuffling method? What's a good sideboard strategy, seeing as how it'll have a tiny effect on the overall composition of the deck? I'm planning on making it Blue/Black/Green - is it worth it, given current mana-fixing? Or should I just make it Blue/Black until Return to Ravnica? Any other advice anyone can think of, especially from people who've piloted Battle of Wills decks before, would be greatly appreciated.
I actually thought I read somewhere that this card wouldn't be legal... maybe I misread, though.
It was an article on cfb. Basically, summarised: Permitted shuffling + sideboard time = 3 minutes and it is theoretically impossible to 'randomise the deck' within that time.
Even 'casually', battle of wits would be probably 'ok' in FNM but even so, all your opponents would have to be seriously cool with it. I.e. not calling you out for stalling/ accusing you of deck stacking/etc.
You will not be able to sufficiently randomize a 200+ (likely 220+) card deck in the time alloted. Battle of wits, as a deck, was primarily an MTGO deck, where shuffling is a matter of a click.
I had a friend who played it competitively IRL. Back then, he had a cadre of friends (including myself) who shuffled for him in order to meet the time limit. Of course, some people argued that people shuffling for you isn't allowed in the rules, which I'm not sure of.
Anyway, here's a tip: Play with at least 60% mana sources. At that many cards in the library, playing with only 40-45% land (the usual land ratio in constructed) is suicidal.
Battle of Wits is a deck that one multiple high profile paper tournaments. I think if you weren't actually able to play it, then it wouldn't have won. Not to mention, Wizard's isn't going to print a card that people wont be able to play. The only reason they printed it was for Standard.
In short, feel free to play it. Just learn to shuffle quickly and well. Practice shuffling 250 sleeves before bringing it to any tournament.
Also look up old winning lists for BoW, and see how they were built and played.
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I'll hold myself to this. I'll get fancy dishes and everything.
You will not be able to sufficiently randomize a 200+ (likely 220+) card deck in the time alloted. Battle of wits, as a deck, was primarily an MTGO deck, where shuffling is a matter of a click.
I had a friend who played it competitively IRL. Back then, he had a cadre of friends (including myself) who shuffled for him in order to meet the time limit. Of course, some people argued that people shuffling for you isn't allowed in the rules, which I'm not sure of.
I decided to look through the tournament rules, and found this about the role of spectators (which, I'm assuming, is how friends helping to shuffle would be categorized):
Spectators are responsible for:
• Remaining silent and passive during matches and other official tournament sections, such as Limited deck construction, in which players are also required to be silent. If spectators believe they have observed a rules or policy violation, they are encouraged to alert a judge as soon as possible. At Regular or Competitive REL, spectators are permitted to ask the players to pause the match while they alert a judge. At Professional REL, spectators must not interfere with the match directly.
Players may request that a spectator not observe their matches. Such requests must be made through a judge. Tournament officials may also instruct a spectator not observe a match or matches.
As I interpret this, it means that you could have a team of shufflers provided that 1.) They leave if your opponent or a judge asks, and 2.) that you aren't playing at professional REL.
I didn't find anything saying specifically how long a person has to shuffle (I might just not be looking in the right place), but I did find this:
At Competitive and Professional REL tournaments, players are required to shuffle their opponents’ decks after their owners have shuffled them. The Head Judge can require this at Regular REL tournaments as well.
So, if you're just a huge jerk, it's conceivable that you could show up at a Competitive REL tournament with a Battle of Wills deck and a team of shufflers, forcing your opponent to insufficiently randomize your deck and possibly incur violations. Of course any halfway competent judge would throw you out for unprofessional conduct, but it'd be funny to watch. From a distance.
You will not be able to sufficiently randomize a 200+ (likely 220+) card deck in the time alloted. Battle of wits, as a deck, was primarily an MTGO deck, where shuffling is a matter of a click.
I had a friend who played it competitively IRL. Back then, he had a cadre of friends (including myself) who shuffled for him in order to meet the time limit. Of course, some people argued that people shuffling for you isn't allowed in the rules, which I'm not sure of.
Anyway, here's a tip: Play with at least 60% mana sources. At that many cards in the library, playing with only 40-45% land (the usual land ratio in constructed) is suicidal.
What's a good sideboard strategy, seeing as how it'll have a tiny effect on the overall composition of the deck?
Don't bother. You're playing 240+ cards, you can fit silver bullets in there anyway. Have a sideboard with 14 islands and a card of your choice, that you can bet someone a copy of it will be in the top 8 of a tournament (favor of the woods, or such).
You have to really practice shuffling a
Battle of wits deck to get it done in 3 minutes but I can be done.
Break your deck into 4 piles and shuffle 2 plies together, then shuffle the other piles. Repeat this then shuffle the whole stack a couple times.
As to your sideboard...I wouldn't run one in standard. That three minutes is also your time to sideboard and bringing cards in and out will eat up
Vaulable shuffling time.
My legacy deck ran a 15 card wishboard as my sb, but there's nothing comparable in standard
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Current Decks
Standard BEtched Champion/InfectB WSoilders/knightsW WUVenser SplicerWU RRDWR GFeed the Pack comboG WUPool of ExhaustionWU
EDH GEzuri, Elf OverrunG BGeth, GraverobberB UThada Adel, ThiefU RUrabrask, Big RedR WElesh Norn, CrusadeW WUGAngus Makenzie, Bant ControlWUG
I'm going on record right now and stating that before the end of 2012 we will see foil dual lands in booster packs (The real, Alpha dual lands). You can quote me on that.
I had a friend who played it competitively IRL. Back then, he had a cadre of friends (including myself) who shuffled for him in order to meet the time limit. Of course, some people argued that people shuffling for you isn't allowed in the rules, which I'm not sure of.
Anyway, here's a tip: Play with at least 60% mana sources. At that many cards in the library, playing with only 40-45% land (the usual land ratio in constructed) is suicidal.
Seconding Sabett here: that advice makes no sense to me. Why would playing with a normal land ratio be suicide? The point of the ratio is that you draw lands at that rate regardless of whether you have 40, 60 or 240 cards in your deck.
And last I heard, shuffling had to be done without outside assistance, so no teams of shufflers.
Back during Kamigawa-M9-Ravnica standard, when I built my first deck, I had a Blue-Black deck that started with the House Dimir precon, and included enough stuff to have a legitimate shot at winning with Battle of Wits. I showed up with a 300-card deck in blue-black, including M9 and Ravnica dual lands (pain, shocks and bounce), 4x Diabolic Tutor and tried to go at it with a combination of Mill and BoW. Guess what? The deck was a piece of crap.
I remember reading last year when M12 came out that the gurus at Wizards like to include "niche" cards that will never have a real impact in standard, but might see play at kitchen tables around the world. They specifically mentioned Scrambleverse as being one of them. So....I am guessing that Battle is the "fun" card for somebody's casual homebrew in M13.
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Currently playing:
Standard: WBRG Aggro-Reanimator Humans GRBW
Modern: UR Twinning RU G Venus Fly Trap G U Artifacts Aggro U
Back during Kamigawa-M9-Ravnica standard, when I built my first deck, I had a Blue-Black deck that started with the House Dimir precon, and included enough stuff to have a legitimate shot at winning with Battle of Wits. I showed up with a 300-card deck in blue-black, including M9 and Ravnica dual lands (pain, shocks and bounce), 4x Diabolic Tutor and tried to go at it with a combination of Mill and BoW. Guess what? The deck was a piece of crap.
I remember reading last year when M12 came out that the gurus at Wizards like to include "niche" cards that will never have a real impact in standard, but might see play at kitchen tables around the world. They specifically mentioned Scrambleverse as being one of them. So....I am guessing that Battle is the "fun" card for somebody's casual homebrew in M13.
you couldn't play battle of wits =/= battle of wits is unplayable jank.
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You got 99 attackers but I'm blocking with 1.
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The only way to sufficiently randomize a 220-card deck within 3 minutes is to have enormous hands.
If I had my way, decks that could not be shuffled adequately in a timely manner would not be legal in tournaments. In practice, judges don't want to effectively disqualify players for playing Battle of Wits decks, so you will get away with grossly insufficient shuffling.
It was an article on cfb. Basically, summarised: Permitted shuffling + sideboard time = 3 minutes and it is theoretically impossible to 'randomise the deck' within that time.
Even 'casually', battle of wits would be probably 'ok' in FNM but even so, all your opponents would have to be seriously cool with it. I.e. not calling you out for stalling/ accusing you of deck stacking/etc.
That's not quite right, it is possible to shuffle a Battle of Wits deck in under 3 minutes. The easiest way to randomize is split it down into 5-6 smaller decks and either table or slide shuffle them. It's possible to do both in right about 3 minutes (I know I've done it for one I'm testing for a Modern GP). Either way you can accomplish it, but sometimes you are cutting it close.
Splitting it into 5 or 6 piles, shuffling those together, and then stacking them up, does not constitute sufficient randomization, because you could know which cards are in which pile, and then put the appropriate pile on top. Even if you do something along the lines of shuffling piles 1 and 2, then splitting that in half and shuffling one half into pile 3, and so on, that does not constitute sufficient randomization, since it is very easy to ensure that certain cards are more likely to end up in the top half of your deck than in the bottom half.
Splitting it up into 5 or 6 piles, shuffling those together, eventually going down to 2 piles, and then shuffling the resulting two piles together, does constitute sufficient randomization, but the last step is just the same as shuffling the entire deck, and is not possible for most people to physically perform.
That's not quite right, it is possible to shuffle a Battle of Wits deck in under 3 minutes. The easiest way to randomize is split it down into 5-6 smaller decks and either table or slide shuffle them. It's possible to do both in right about 3 minutes (I know I've done it for one I'm testing for a Modern GP). Either way you can accomplish it, but sometimes you are cutting it close.
It's especially possible unsleeved. I'm seriously considering picking up cheap, nonfoil versions of everything I already have in foil to be able to run this deck unsleeved.
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In practice, judges don't want to effectively disqualify players for playing Battle of Wits decks, so you will get away with grossly insufficient shuffling.
Don't count on it. Deck checking 250-card decks does not make us jovial inside.
I suggest using a fat pack box, standing it up on its side, and putting your library inside whilst playing. The fat pack box fits 300 sleeved cards in it, so you'll have room for your deck and a little bit of space for drawing. This will greatly reduce the odds of an accident happening and cards going everywhere. Just make sure to leave it in a position where both players can see into it.
At home, practice shuffling that monster. I would suggest getting a stopwatch, and making sure you can get it randomized in 2:30. Taking into account nerves and bizarre tournament variance, that extra 30-second window could be the difference between a timely present, and a slow play warning (you don't want to get more than one, and judges will be paying attention because you're playing a deck that by its very nature makes you stand out).
I second the shuffling advice already presented - separate the deck into piles, slam shuffle those piles until you have a full deck, separate the piles again, riffle shuffle the piles, slam shuffle the piles together again, separate the piles again... rinse and repeat as often as time permits.
Oh, and check your sleeves between EVERY match. If the sleeves holding the Battle of Wits cards are even CLOSE to marked, switch them out for new sleeves. Every time. I'm sure if you're sleeving 250 cards, you're buying sleeves in bulk.
What colours do y'all recommend playing Battle of Wits in?
I'm currently running UBWR. But the mana base is shaky as is.
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I'm running a BUG BOW list online and it seems pretty solid so far. Even though most of the cards in it are inexpensive, since there are so many it will probably cost a pretty penny to put it together IRL. I really wanna bring it to FNM, would be a blast.
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Standard:
N/A
Modern:
Grishoalbrand / Grixis Death's Shadow / Jeskai Control / UW Control
What colours do y'all recommend playing Battle of Wits in?
I'm currently running UBWR. But the mana base is shaky as is.
4 colors seems way to shaky, especially without green. I personally wouldn't run more than 3 (BUW is what I'm building). GWU could work as more of a "zoo" variant.
Hmmm, What are the advantages of playing Green over red or white though? You lose an intense amount of removal, and what I think could end up being a key card: Archangel's light
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I've been 5-0 (in best of 3 matches) with BOW in an Esper Control shell on Cockatrice. Here is what Esper gives you:
Blue: Battle, Counterspells,Vapor Snags, Cantrips, Ponder, Digging Spells, Tamiyo
Black: Removal, Tutors, Liliana of the Veil
White: O-ring, Revoke Existence, Awesome midrangy stuff, Gideon, Elesh Norn
UW: Geist of Saint Traft as an alternate wincon, Moorland Haunt
BW: Sorin, Lord of Innistrad, Lingering Souls, Vault of the Archangel
UB: Forbidden Alchemy
Artifacts: Wellsprings, Swords, Elixir of Immortality
And that really sums up the advantages of Esper. It runs each of the titans and plays out like an Esper Control deck and is fairly consistent and obscenely fun. Good luck with your deck
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If I play it in tournaments, what's a good quick shuffling method? What's a good sideboard strategy, seeing as how it'll have a tiny effect on the overall composition of the deck? I'm planning on making it Blue/Black/Green - is it worth it, given current mana-fixing? Or should I just make it Blue/Black until Return to Ravnica? Any other advice anyone can think of, especially from people who've piloted Battle of Wills decks before, would be greatly appreciated.
It was an article on cfb. Basically, summarised: Permitted shuffling + sideboard time = 3 minutes and it is theoretically impossible to 'randomise the deck' within that time.
Even 'casually', battle of wits would be probably 'ok' in FNM but even so, all your opponents would have to be seriously cool with it. I.e. not calling you out for stalling/ accusing you of deck stacking/etc.
I had a friend who played it competitively IRL. Back then, he had a cadre of friends (including myself) who shuffled for him in order to meet the time limit. Of course, some people argued that people shuffling for you isn't allowed in the rules, which I'm not sure of.
Anyway, here's a tip: Play with at least 60% mana sources. At that many cards in the library, playing with only 40-45% land (the usual land ratio in constructed) is suicidal.
"Sometimes, the situation is outracing a threat, sometimes it's ignoring it, and sometimes it involves sideboarding in 4x Hope//Pray." --Doug Linn
In short, feel free to play it. Just learn to shuffle quickly and well. Practice shuffling 250 sleeves before bringing it to any tournament.
Also look up old winning lists for BoW, and see how they were built and played.
I decided to look through the tournament rules, and found this about the role of spectators (which, I'm assuming, is how friends helping to shuffle would be categorized):
As I interpret this, it means that you could have a team of shufflers provided that 1.) They leave if your opponent or a judge asks, and 2.) that you aren't playing at professional REL.
I didn't find anything saying specifically how long a person has to shuffle (I might just not be looking in the right place), but I did find this:
So, if you're just a huge jerk, it's conceivable that you could show up at a Competitive REL tournament with a Battle of Wills deck and a team of shufflers, forcing your opponent to insufficiently randomize your deck and possibly incur violations. Of course any halfway competent judge would throw you out for unprofessional conduct, but it'd be funny to watch. From a distance.
Also, that's awful advice about the lands, don't change the ratio, that's why it's a ratio.
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Don't bother. You're playing 240+ cards, you can fit silver bullets in there anyway. Have a sideboard with 14 islands and a card of your choice, that you can bet someone a copy of it will be in the top 8 of a tournament (favor of the woods, or such).
Battle of wits deck to get it done in 3 minutes but I can be done.
Break your deck into 4 piles and shuffle 2 plies together, then shuffle the other piles. Repeat this then shuffle the whole stack a couple times.
As to your sideboard...I wouldn't run one in standard. That three minutes is also your time to sideboard and bringing cards in and out will eat up
Vaulable shuffling time.
My legacy deck ran a 15 card wishboard as my sb, but there's nothing comparable in standard
BEtched Champion/InfectB
WSoilders/knightsW
WUVenser SplicerWU
RRDWR
GFeed the Pack comboG
WUPool of ExhaustionWU
EDH
GEzuri, Elf OverrunG
BGeth, GraverobberB
UThada Adel, ThiefU
RUrabrask, Big RedR
WElesh Norn, CrusadeW
WUGAngus Makenzie, Bant ControlWUG
Extended
WGElvesWG
Legacy
RGoblinsR
UBGFariesUBG
UBGRaffinityUBG
Seconding Sabett here: that advice makes no sense to me. Why would playing with a normal land ratio be suicide? The point of the ratio is that you draw lands at that rate regardless of whether you have 40, 60 or 240 cards in your deck.
And last I heard, shuffling had to be done without outside assistance, so no teams of shufflers.
I remember reading last year when M12 came out that the gurus at Wizards like to include "niche" cards that will never have a real impact in standard, but might see play at kitchen tables around the world. They specifically mentioned Scrambleverse as being one of them. So....I am guessing that Battle is the "fun" card for somebody's casual homebrew in M13.
Standard:
WBRG Aggro-Reanimator Humans GRBW
Modern:
UR Twinning RU
G Venus Fly Trap G
U Artifacts Aggro U
Legacy:
B Reanimator B
WU Stoneblade UW
EDH
WBGGhave, Guru of SporesGBW
URGRiku of the Two ReflectionsGRU
WUBRGScion of the Ur-DragonGRBUW
Casual
Far too many to list
you couldn't play battle of wits =/= battle of wits is unplayable jank.
You got 99 attackers but I'm blocking with 1.
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Here was a little bit of the discussion on that kind of card.
Standard:
WBRG Aggro-Reanimator Humans GRBW
Modern:
UR Twinning RU
G Venus Fly Trap G
U Artifacts Aggro U
Legacy:
B Reanimator B
WU Stoneblade UW
EDH
WBGGhave, Guru of SporesGBW
URGRiku of the Two ReflectionsGRU
WUBRGScion of the Ur-DragonGRBUW
Casual
Far too many to list
If I had my way, decks that could not be shuffled adequately in a timely manner would not be legal in tournaments. In practice, judges don't want to effectively disqualify players for playing Battle of Wits decks, so you will get away with grossly insufficient shuffling.
That's not quite right, it is possible to shuffle a Battle of Wits deck in under 3 minutes. The easiest way to randomize is split it down into 5-6 smaller decks and either table or slide shuffle them. It's possible to do both in right about 3 minutes (I know I've done it for one I'm testing for a Modern GP). Either way you can accomplish it, but sometimes you are cutting it close.
Splitting it up into 5 or 6 piles, shuffling those together, eventually going down to 2 piles, and then shuffling the resulting two piles together, does constitute sufficient randomization, but the last step is just the same as shuffling the entire deck, and is not possible for most people to physically perform.
It's especially possible unsleeved. I'm seriously considering picking up cheap, nonfoil versions of everything I already have in foil to be able to run this deck unsleeved.
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Don't count on it. Deck checking 250-card decks does not make us jovial inside.
I suggest using a fat pack box, standing it up on its side, and putting your library inside whilst playing. The fat pack box fits 300 sleeved cards in it, so you'll have room for your deck and a little bit of space for drawing. This will greatly reduce the odds of an accident happening and cards going everywhere. Just make sure to leave it in a position where both players can see into it.
At home, practice shuffling that monster. I would suggest getting a stopwatch, and making sure you can get it randomized in 2:30. Taking into account nerves and bizarre tournament variance, that extra 30-second window could be the difference between a timely present, and a slow play warning (you don't want to get more than one, and judges will be paying attention because you're playing a deck that by its very nature makes you stand out).
I second the shuffling advice already presented - separate the deck into piles, slam shuffle those piles until you have a full deck, separate the piles again, riffle shuffle the piles, slam shuffle the piles together again, separate the piles again... rinse and repeat as often as time permits.
Oh, and check your sleeves between EVERY match. If the sleeves holding the Battle of Wits cards are even CLOSE to marked, switch them out for new sleeves. Every time. I'm sure if you're sleeving 250 cards, you're buying sleeves in bulk.
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I'm currently running UBWR. But the mana base is shaky as is.
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Thankfully, I'm 6'4" and have some frickin' huge hands.
Thanks for the advice, everyone! Especially you judges out there.
N/A
Modern:
Grishoalbrand / Grixis Death's Shadow / Jeskai Control / UW Control
4 colors seems way to shaky, especially without green. I personally wouldn't run more than 3 (BUW is what I'm building). GWU could work as more of a "zoo" variant.
Whilst the multitudes go about their business, we listen; we skulk; we watch and see all. Do you yourself possess the necessary skills and aptitude to join our hidden ranks?
My Xbox Live gamertag is A3t0s - Hit me up for Bops or Bops 2 anytime
Blue: Battle, Counterspells,Vapor Snags, Cantrips, Ponder, Digging Spells, Tamiyo
Black: Removal, Tutors, Liliana of the Veil
White: O-ring, Revoke Existence, Awesome midrangy stuff, Gideon, Elesh Norn
UW: Geist of Saint Traft as an alternate wincon, Moorland Haunt
BW: Sorin, Lord of Innistrad, Lingering Souls, Vault of the Archangel
UB: Forbidden Alchemy
Artifacts: Wellsprings, Swords, Elixir of Immortality
And that really sums up the advantages of Esper. It runs each of the titans and plays out like an Esper Control deck and is fairly consistent and obscenely fun. Good luck with your deck