Proxies are fine in casual or tournament testing. In casual I'd like to see at least most of the cards be real, but for tournament testing stuff if someone wanted to proxy up the basic lands I wouldn't care.
I proxy cards I don't yet have copies of for decks I'm testing and for cards that I have in other decks. For instance I have proxied JTMS in RUG and my EDH deck while the real cards are in my CawBlade deck.
I don't see why people would have a problem with proxying when you own the actual cards and they're in another deck (casual play obviously).
In our playgroup, proxies are strongly frowned upon. It came from having a few new players join the group and proxy entire decks, sans basic lands. The others that had gotten into the game were bothered, as they had learned how to beat stronger casual decks within the group with skill, and as they acquired money, they added new cards to their decks to complement their skill. These guys came in and were running Tier 1 decks and putting no effort into buying cards themselves. Eventually, we laid down the "no proxies unless you're testing for a tournament" rule (and there were only a few that regularly played at FNM or PTQ's) and people got mad and left. The consensus was this was a good thing. Plus, having the others around cut into our playing for ante because trading ownership of fake cards doesn't work.
So, in our group, if you don't own it and don't plan to: run something else. I probably have a stronger reaction to proxies than most. But really, it's something of a mark of pride to acquire new things and trade your way up to things.
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Current Decks:
Standard: UG Delver
Extended: U Grand Architect
Modern: RUG Tempo
Legacy: UBG Dredge
Commander: UG Eldric, Spymaster of Trest RWU Zedruu, the Greathearted
For me, proxies is fine when playtesting. Using proxies for your deck because you want to be cheap is not valid. You are basically bypassing an entire point of the game so you can play with certain cards. If you cannot get them, then use cheap alternatives. I believe you should own the real cards if you plan on using it in a completed deck. The only other time I do not mind proxies is when you own the card, but you have it in other decks.
For the record, I only own a dual land, and it is not in any of my decks. I refuse to use proxies unless it is purely for playtesting the deck. If I playing the deck other than playtesting, then I make do without. I have a goblin deck that lacks both Arc Trails and Goblin Guides.
My personal feeling is that you open up a can of worms if you allow proxies in a casual setting (i.e. EDH/Commander or casual Legacy/Vintage). It creates a really crappy arms race where everyone is going to proxy up the most powerful cards and takes some of the fun out of deckbuilding and gameplay.
If you're taking a deck with proxies into mixed company - e.g playing a game of EDH before FNM starts with some new friends - always mention up front that you are running proxies and offer to remove them. It's just the polite thing to do.
I have heard vague rumors of a moustache-dispensing vending machine in a distant laundromat, across the street from a tattoo parlor. However, this information is shaky, and time is of the essence.
These days I even have a fake Black Lotus and a set of Moxes that I use in casual Vintage play with my friends b/c it seems ridiculous that we can't build our decks the way we want just b/c those cards are out of reach economically for us.
It isn't ridiculous; it's part of the game.
On the other hand, I understand that these fake cards would not be allowed in DCI-sanctioned tournaments (which is fine), but my question is if I start playing more broadly (but still casually) what do you think people's feelings about such proxy cards would generally be these days?
It's a form of cheating. If you don't have the card, you don't have the card.
Just because it is "part of the game" (which is arguable) doesn't automatically exempt it from being ridiculous.
I can see how someone might consider it part of the meta-game or the economic context of playing the game, but part of the game itself? Does that make borrowing a friend's cards to play cheating? Or what if I find them on the street or even steal them, but they are the actual cards?
But still, I asked for people's POVs on the subject and you gave yours, I shouldn't argue.
Just because it is "part of the game" (which is arguable) doesn't automatically exempt it from being ridiculous.
I can see how someone might consider it part of the meta-game or the economic context of playing the game, but part of the game itself? Does that make borrowing a friend's cards to play cheating? Or what if I find them on the street or even steal them, but they are the actual cards?
But still, I asked for people's POVs on the subject and you gave yours, I shouldn't argue.
Arguing is not bad.
Borrowing or stealing a card still nets you the physical (legal) card to use. It may not be yours, but for intent of the deck, the card is yours. Proxy is a representation of the card, not the card itself.
Whenever I've seen someone proxy a card it is because they want to finish the deck and haven't gotten around to buying the other cards for it..but I've never seen any of these proxy decks finished as they have no incentive to buy the rest of the cards if these proxies are accepted.
It's mildly irritating, since if I wanted to proxy cards I could run some truly obscene decks, but casual is supposed to be casual not proxy tournament decks.
I always say proxy whatever you want and I do the same.
Whats the point in playing with sub optimal decks just because you or your opponent didn't spend money on the card?
I know others feel differently, but I've never really understood why.
What does your opponent spending money have to do with the game?
I kinda feel the same way. Given that every card is available for purchase online, scarcity is not an issue, it's just the price, so why should the amount of money someone has limit thier deckbuilding choices?
Back when I owned the full p9 and all the dual lands, I loved proxies because they allowed people that didn't have $3000 lying around to be on the same competitive field as I was. Now that I've sold most of those cards so that I could buy a house, I love the fact that I can still play competitive Vintage and now have to be left out just because I made a responsible decision in regards to my power (selling it)
Back when I owned the full p9 and all the dual lands, I loved proxies because they allowed people that didn't have $3000 lying around to be on the same competitive field as I was. Now that I've sold most of those cards so that I could buy a house, I love the fact that I can still play competitive Vintage and now have to be left out just because I made a responsible decision in regards to my power (selling it)
I also wanted to add that if and when I were to play with someone outside my usual group of friendly players I would mention that I was using proxies and if someone had a problem with it I'd use a different deck.
The reason I am asking is because in my past experience they seemed to be generally frowned upon in all circumstances, but in getting back into it and looking around online, I see a lot more reference to people proxying cards than I ever thought I would.
These days I even have a fake Black Lotus and a set of Moxes that I use in casual Vintage play with my friends b/c it seems ridiculous that we can't build our decks the way we want just b/c those cards are out of reach economically for us. On the other hand, I understand that these fake cards would not be allowed in DCI-sanctioned tournaments (which is fine), but my question is if I start playing more broadly (but still casually) what do you think people's feelings about such proxy cards would generally be these days?
The sanctioned Vintage tournament scene is effectively nonexistent. Almost all real Vintage tournaments now are unsanctioned and explicitly allow proxies.
Quote from Wrath99 »
No problem what so ever with proxies provided that:
1. It looks like you put some effort into it/printed a copy. Not just scratched out island and write mox sapphire.
That's actually how you're required to do proxies in most Vintage tournaments, to reduce the chances of proxies being marked cards by being thicker in the sleeve than non-proxied cards. (And before you respond with "just proxy the whole deck," most tournaments have a limit on the number of allowable proxies, or charge extra on the entry fee for each proxy over a given number.)
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I am no longer on MTGS staff, so please don't contact me asking me to do staff things. :|
It's a form of cheating. If you don't have the card, you don't have the card.
Paying $9000 for a piece of glorified cardboard is ridiculous, and shouldn't be a part of any game, but alas, it is.
I do agree that building a deck entirely out of cards that are economically unattainable is silly, but it's far from ridiculous, and even farther from cheating. If both casual players agree that it's alright to play with proxy cards, it's not cheating.
I understand that opinions are opinions, but seriously, who can realistically afford 4x Black Lotus cards? Is it really so awful to fake these impossible to obtain cards for the sake of a fun game? I don't think it is.
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Humans constantly reach for greatness. Whether it be by exploring space, or exploring the oceans depths. Ultimately, that is the folly of our nature; for that reason we will never understand the true meaning of life. We're limited by our desire to achieve the things we claim to be grand, ignoring the simpler things that were and are already grand. "What's your name?"
"The names Roy, but in-game, you can call me PERNILIOUS! MASTER OF THE DUNGEON!"
proxying is really only bad from a wizards perspective because it can mean people aren't buying their product. older cards (like those usually played in commander) which no longer are being printed don't make wizards (for the most part) any money when it comes to non-tournament play. as proxies aren't allowed in sanctioned tournaments, i don't really see what other formats people could use proxies in besides the aforementioned testing and casual. Casual to me at least is about having fun, and if i wanna play with some card that i don't own, proxying gives me a way to do that.
i don't really care if people proxy as long as i know what cards they are playing.
For those who seem to have strong opinions about proxying, why does it matter that much. If they are playing decks that aren't fun, then don't play with them/let them know that that deck isn't fun to play against. if the proxied deck is fun, then encourage them to get the cards, but it really shouldn't matter whether i own the cards or not. as long as people are having fun and not using proxies in sanctioned tournaments.
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Magic: The Gathering L2 Judge
R.I.P. Todd Davis
"Tarmogoyf is such a good blue card that you cannot pitch it to force of will. It is meant to be played." Found on Roflos' sig a long while ago
I only really proxy if I am building a deck and want to know if it is any good to play and buy as I do not have the kind of money to be using three or four different competitive level decks.
I kinda feel the same way. Given that every card is available for purchase online, scarcity is not an issue, it's just the price, so why should the amount of money someone has limit thier deckbuilding choices?
That's basicly the same point as saying "Why should someone with less money be limited in their gaming or their choice of music? Piracy is alright!"
It's a hobby which costs money. You can't play golf without the right clubs and a membership for the golf court, you can't play paintball with a cardboard armor and a sling, you can't go to the movies without paying for a ticket and you can't play Magic without owning the cards. Simple as that.
That's basicly the same point as saying "Why should someone with less money be limited in their gaming or their choice of music? Piracy is alright!"
It's a hobby which costs money. You can't play golf without the right clubs and a membership for the golf court, you can't play paintball with a cardboard armor and a sling, you can't go to the movies without paying for a ticket and you can't play Magic without owning the cards. Simple as that.
I couldnt have said it any better... sure I proxy but only to practice/playtest cards that I want to buy (and save for) in the future.
(M:tG) It's a hobby which costs money. You can't play golf without the right clubs and a membership for the golf court, you can't play paintball with a cardboard armor and a sling, you can't go to the movies without paying for a ticket and you can't play Magic without owning the cards. Simple as that.
Proxy cards are all a matter of courtesy. How are you using them in a particular circumstance. Most of what I list below is assumed casual setting as we all know sanctioned tournament rules prohibit proxies.
Acceptable:
1. Proxy tournament - This is an understood part of participation
2. Play testing before purchase - We all know it makes no sense to own a playset of every card just to build one deck.
3. Protecting a very expensive card you own - Feel free to proxy a black lotus if you have it in case somewhere.
4. Upgrading the art of a card you own - If you really want to play with some custom art of a card you otherwise own, just make it readable.
Unacceptable/Irritating:
1. Proxy Power in a playgroup that doesn't even run power - Bad form
2. Lame proxies - Do not just write the card names across some forests and throw them in a deck
3. Proxy to save money - Yes, I know magic is expensive, but it is a hobby. If you want to play a less expensive format lots of people are willing to play pauper, EDH, Cube or lend cards.
4. Proxy cheap cards - Just buy those 4x commons and be done with it
If your particular playgroup is cool with 100% forest proxies for a pauper deck, have fun, I speak for the general population. Buying cards supports the game, either by supporting WOTC directly or you LGS or players themselves. Proxies have a place, but it is limited.
That's basicly the same point as saying "Why should someone with less money be limited in their gaming or their choice of music? Piracy is alright!"
It's a hobby which costs money. You can't play golf without the right clubs and a membership for the golf court, you can't play paintball with a cardboard armor and a sling, you can't go to the movies without paying for a ticket and you can't play Magic without owning the cards. Simple as that.
I feel this is a little harsh. It would be piracy to sell proxies as real cards or to try to participate in official tournaments with proxies, but not to make them for your own use. Proxies are more of an issue of courtesy than of legality in general. No one is talking about going to a PTQ with proxies or starting a business selling fake lotuses. Taping a movie playing on TV is reasonable use, so is proxying cards, so long it is only for personal use.
Just out of curiosity, how many of you would have problems with people proxying cards they do have across multiple decks? IE I have 2 Journeyer's Kites and I proxy a third my third EDH deck.
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That was pretty interesting. But dropping a warship on me is cheating. Take it back!
Just out of curiosity, how many of you would have problems with people proxying cards they do have across multiple decks? IE I have 2 Journeyer's Kites and I proxy a third my third EDH deck.
Go for it. I do it anyway. I have a few decks that are competitive, but I don't feel like buying 3 more playsets of Aether Vials, nor do I want to get 5 more playsets of Force Of Wills or Wastelands. I'm proxying them.
Whats the point in playing with sub optimal decks just because you or your opponent didn't spend money on the card?
I know others feel differently, but I've never really understood why.
What does your opponent spending money have to do with the game?
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I don't see why people would have a problem with proxying when you own the actual cards and they're in another deck (casual play obviously).
So, in our group, if you don't own it and don't plan to: run something else. I probably have a stronger reaction to proxies than most. But really, it's something of a mark of pride to acquire new things and trade your way up to things.
Standard: UG Delver
Extended: U Grand Architect
Modern: RUG Tempo
Legacy: UBG Dredge
Commander: UG Eldric, Spymaster of Trest
RWU Zedruu, the Greathearted
For the record, I only own a dual land, and it is not in any of my decks. I refuse to use proxies unless it is purely for playtesting the deck. If I playing the deck other than playtesting, then I make do without. I have a goblin deck that lacks both Arc Trails and Goblin Guides.
My personal feeling is that you open up a can of worms if you allow proxies in a casual setting (i.e. EDH/Commander or casual Legacy/Vintage). It creates a really crappy arms race where everyone is going to proxy up the most powerful cards and takes some of the fun out of deckbuilding and gameplay.
If you're taking a deck with proxies into mixed company - e.g playing a game of EDH before FNM starts with some new friends - always mention up front that you are running proxies and offer to remove them. It's just the polite thing to do.
It isn't ridiculous; it's part of the game.
It's a form of cheating. If you don't have the card, you don't have the card.
The Great Creature Token Project
Just because it is "part of the game" (which is arguable) doesn't automatically exempt it from being ridiculous.
I can see how someone might consider it part of the meta-game or the economic context of playing the game, but part of the game itself? Does that make borrowing a friend's cards to play cheating? Or what if I find them on the street or even steal them, but they are the actual cards?
But still, I asked for people's POVs on the subject and you gave yours, I shouldn't argue.
Arguing is not bad.
Borrowing or stealing a card still nets you the physical (legal) card to use. It may not be yours, but for intent of the deck, the card is yours. Proxy is a representation of the card, not the card itself.
It's mildly irritating, since if I wanted to proxy cards I could run some truly obscene decks, but casual is supposed to be casual not proxy tournament decks.
I kinda feel the same way. Given that every card is available for purchase online, scarcity is not an issue, it's just the price, so why should the amount of money someone has limit thier deckbuilding choices?
1. It looks like you put some effort into it/printed a copy. Not just scratched out island and write mox sapphire.
2. We are playing casual, i do not want to see some kid playing proxy at fnm or any competitive game.
3.Your entire deck better not be proxies, a few cards to test is one thing, a whole ****ing deck is quite another.
4. Your testing some cards and do indeed plan to buy them if all goes well. This is a perfectly acceptable reason to print up some proxies.
5.You have the real card(s) and want A)custom ones for a deck, mainly in edh for a general or B)dont have quite enough to go around all your decks.
Currently Playing
1994 Magic The Rack
Type 1: B/W Zombies
Modern: Kuldotha Red
Legacy: Pox, Oath
Vintag: 10 Proxy Merfolk
Pauper: Pestilence, UG Threshold
EDH: Karn, Roon, Sliver Queen, Xiahou Dun, Arcanus
If this were Facebook, I'd "like" this comment.
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I also wanted to add that if and when I were to play with someone outside my usual group of friendly players I would mention that I was using proxies and if someone had a problem with it I'd use a different deck.
The reason I am asking is because in my past experience they seemed to be generally frowned upon in all circumstances, but in getting back into it and looking around online, I see a lot more reference to people proxying cards than I ever thought I would.
The sanctioned Vintage tournament scene is effectively nonexistent. Almost all real Vintage tournaments now are unsanctioned and explicitly allow proxies.
That's actually how you're required to do proxies in most Vintage tournaments, to reduce the chances of proxies being marked cards by being thicker in the sleeve than non-proxied cards. (And before you respond with "just proxy the whole deck," most tournaments have a limit on the number of allowable proxies, or charge extra on the entry fee for each proxy over a given number.)
At least here we don't get 10,000 comments of "Do they still make those? I thought Magic was a fad from when you were in High School."
Paying $9000 for a piece of glorified cardboard is ridiculous, and shouldn't be a part of any game, but alas, it is.
I do agree that building a deck entirely out of cards that are economically unattainable is silly, but it's far from ridiculous, and even farther from cheating. If both casual players agree that it's alright to play with proxy cards, it's not cheating.
I understand that opinions are opinions, but seriously, who can realistically afford 4x Black Lotus cards? Is it really so awful to fake these impossible to obtain cards for the sake of a fun game? I don't think it is.
"What's your name?"
"The names Roy, but in-game, you can call me PERNILIOUS! MASTER OF THE DUNGEON!"
i don't really care if people proxy as long as i know what cards they are playing.
For those who seem to have strong opinions about proxying, why does it matter that much. If they are playing decks that aren't fun, then don't play with them/let them know that that deck isn't fun to play against. if the proxied deck is fun, then encourage them to get the cards, but it really shouldn't matter whether i own the cards or not. as long as people are having fun and not using proxies in sanctioned tournaments.
R.I.P. Todd Davis
"Tarmogoyf is such a good blue card that you cannot pitch it to force of will. It is meant to be played." Found on Roflos' sig a long while ago
That's basicly the same point as saying "Why should someone with less money be limited in their gaming or their choice of music? Piracy is alright!"
It's a hobby which costs money. You can't play golf without the right clubs and a membership for the golf court, you can't play paintball with a cardboard armor and a sling, you can't go to the movies without paying for a ticket and you can't play Magic without owning the cards. Simple as that.
I couldnt have said it any better... sure I proxy but only to practice/playtest cards that I want to buy (and save for) in the future.
this will officially be my quote.
Acceptable:
1. Proxy tournament - This is an understood part of participation
2. Play testing before purchase - We all know it makes no sense to own a playset of every card just to build one deck.
3. Protecting a very expensive card you own - Feel free to proxy a black lotus if you have it in case somewhere.
4. Upgrading the art of a card you own - If you really want to play with some custom art of a card you otherwise own, just make it readable.
Unacceptable/Irritating:
1. Proxy Power in a playgroup that doesn't even run power - Bad form
2. Lame proxies - Do not just write the card names across some forests and throw them in a deck
3. Proxy to save money - Yes, I know magic is expensive, but it is a hobby. If you want to play a less expensive format lots of people are willing to play pauper, EDH, Cube or lend cards.
4. Proxy cheap cards - Just buy those 4x commons and be done with it
If your particular playgroup is cool with 100% forest proxies for a pauper deck, have fun, I speak for the general population. Buying cards supports the game, either by supporting WOTC directly or you LGS or players themselves. Proxies have a place, but it is limited.
*Edit*
I feel this is a little harsh. It would be piracy to sell proxies as real cards or to try to participate in official tournaments with proxies, but not to make them for your own use. Proxies are more of an issue of courtesy than of legality in general. No one is talking about going to a PTQ with proxies or starting a business selling fake lotuses. Taping a movie playing on TV is reasonable use, so is proxying cards, so long it is only for personal use.
Go for it. I do it anyway. I have a few decks that are competitive, but I don't feel like buying 3 more playsets of Aether Vials, nor do I want to get 5 more playsets of Force Of Wills or Wastelands. I'm proxying them.