I seriously am not in favor of this sudden rush of the planeswalker type. I think that they should be released one, per block, of each color or type, in the first set, and then no more.
Mainly because, I really don't want to see this game become Magic: The Planeswalkers.
I think planeswalkers should be something more special, more singularly potent. But when people are building 5 color planeswalker decks that can WIN in standard, I think it's silly and the type is being abused. One, maybe two planeswalkers per deck seems more fair (not limited to 1 or 2, but rather you can pick one or two planeswalkers and have 4 of them).
They need to be printing more planeswalkers like Tezzeret, and Ajani Vengeant.
These poorly designed cards like Sarkhan Vol, and Elspeth, who are simply good, designed to be good just for the sake of being good, and are good, a lot of times without much deck interaction, flat out suck.
That's my rant.
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I seriously am not in favor of this sudden rush of the planeswalker type. I think that they should be released one, per block, of each color or type, in the first set, and then no more.
Am I mistaken but isn't this exactly what they have done? Lorwyn was a big set and there were 5 in it. Shards is a big set and there are only 4 in it. How is this a "sudden rush"? It's less than 10 planeswalkers in 2 years.
But when people are building 5 color planeswalker decks that can WIN in standard, I think it's silly and the type is being abused.
Are you saying that planeswalkers should only be casually playable? Why shouldn't they be able to be played in tournaments? Why can't planeswalker decks win when artifact decks (affinity), creature decks (aggro), sorcry decks (Magnivore), and instant decks (control) all can win?
These poorly designed cards like Sarkhan Vol, and Elspeth, who are simply good, designed to be good just for the sake of being good, and are good, a lot of times without much deck interaction, flat out suck.
I find it funny that you think (in my opinion) the bad planeswalkers are good and the good ones bad. Mind you, I'm talking constructed.
Tezzeret is INSANE. In vintage, if he resolves then it's an auto win. First search for Time Vault, then keep untapping for infinite turns. In extended he fetchs Black Lotus for 0 counters.
Ajani Vengeant is amazing. Add loyalty counters to keep their biggest threat tapped down while you prepare for an armageddon? Or Lightning Helix every turn? The NUTS.
Sarkhan Vol however is horrible if you don't have lots of creatures to keep him alive. +1/+1 is ok, and the haste part doesnt matter since you wont be able to play something else the same turn. Threaten is fine, but you can get that for 1R. And the only way you can play the big ability is if you haven't attacked with the creatures you've given +1/+1.
Elspeth isn't too bad since he makes chump blockers and can also fly you over, but he's nothing insane. A good deck will be able to take care of him either by countering him or by attacking him, and I've won games when my opponent has used the ultimate ability. Evasion works wonders.
I think so far WoTC has done a wonderful job is their use of planeswalkers and I look forward to seeing more of them in the future.
EDIT: @Strangeuniverse
That's just not true. First of all, any color can attack the planeswalker.
Red has burn spells, Green should have enough creatures, Blue has control magic and evasion, White has Oring, Scourglass, etc, Black also has evasion.
You're right in that black has the least to deal with them but when is the last time there's been a mono-black deck in standard? I can't think of one recently.
I do actually agree that they're coming out a bit too fast and feel rushed. All their attempts at creating flavour around them with comics and books etc seems to have fallen a bit flat and weren't really successful at filling them out.
I really don't feel anything for them. I mean all 9 of them could be wiped out in an explosion and I wouldn't feel any sense of nostalgia. It also doesn't help that we got introduced to most of them in Lorwyn without any flavour whatsoever... I would've preferred it if they somehow played an integral part in the block in which the card type made a debut. They made a mistake by not waiting until Alara or doing it in Future Sight to introduce us to them.
Don't get me wrong, I think the card type is well implemented and plays interestingly - but they feel like a dime a dosen.
Tezzeret is INSANE. In vintage, if he resolves then it's an auto win. First search for Time Vault, then keep untapping for infinite turns. In extended he fetchs Black Lotus for 0 counters.
Dude vintage is never a good argument for broken ANYTHING. :s
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Ajani Vengeant is amazing. Add loyalty counters to keep their biggest threat tapped down while you prepare for an armageddon? Or Lightning Helix every turn? The NUTS.
I never disagreed with this. He's really good. Though due to the nature of his abilities, strengths and weaknesses, he is not a candidate to be thrown in every deck that houses both red and white. Where I find nearly any deck that has white can just throw in elspeth and it does well, Ajani requires a defensive strategy around him. otherwise he just ends up being an expensive helix.
As for Sarkhan Vol and Elspeth, I've already spoke my piece about them.
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Dude vintage is never a good argument for broken ANYTHING.
How not? Only a few cards at most from every set see any vintage play at all. For Tezzeret to do this means he has definately made an impression and isn't being used lightly.
Tezzeret is INSANE. In vintage, if he resolves then it's an auto win. First search for Time Vault, then keep untapping for infinite turns. In extended he fetchs Black Lotus for 0 counters.
Huh? Extended? Why did you mention Vintage first and then ignored it?:confused:
Elspeth isn't too bad since he makes chump blockers and can also fly you over, but he's nothing insane. A good deck will be able to take care of him either by countering him or by attacking him, and I've won games when my opponent has used the ultimate ability.
Ehm... Elspeth is a chick... that's part of her appeal.
But yeah, overall I agree with you, SK.
Too many planeswalker??? WT...(expletive)... well, you're entitled to that opinion.
They certainly aren't my favorite card type, and I don't particularly love them, but I sure wish they were a lot more of them, and I wish they were more common (you know, that way they would be less insane, and there would be plenty of ways to deal with them...). I certainly think there will be a Planeswalker-based block/set sometime soon, and then they will be liked by more people.
I seriously am not in favor of this sudden rush of the planeswalker type. I think that they should be released one, per block, of each color or type, in the first set, and then no more.
I think 5 per block feels fine. 1 per set wouldn't be terrible- they'd certainly be special- but then color distribution would be offset a bit. And one color getting screwed out of planeswalkers isn't fun. (Black has yet to get a new planeswalker, and even though Nicol Bolas will very likely be at LEAST UBR, possibly mono black, PWs are powerful enough that it feels better when everybody has access to them)
How not? Only a few cards at most from every set see any vintage play at all. For Tezzeret to do this means he has definately made an impression and isn't being used lightly.
Eternal formats ARE NOT taken into account when making new sets. They are based around the rule of "Vintage can handle anything thrown at it", and if something doesn't work, they'll restrict/ban.
Never base anything off of eternal... Wizards has publicly stated that they could care less. That's both good (otherwise they'd never get new cards to play with... unless the card is broken in that format, it doesn't see play), and bad (bannings).
As of now, it would be nice to have a few more direct answers- some new kind of burn available to black- but otherwise, I could care less. If you really cared, you'd realize that if you were that desperate to kill a planeswalker, you'd actually run cards to answer it, and not complain about it while doing nothing. Go buy Pithing Needles then- they answer them very well.
And last but not least, Elspeth is one of the best planeswalkers in the set. (for type 2)
I am a bit iffy about the new planeswalkers. Suddenly these guys come into the picture and its like Urza or Jaya never happened. I would really like to see some of the old planeswalkers come back which is why everyone is so hyped about Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker. I just feel that these new guys don't so much personality to them. Maybe its because they were just recently printed as cards before we could really even get a good backstory on them. its like the purpous of Time Spiral was to remember the old characters because they were never gonna been seen again.
However I do think they are very powerful cards. Elspeth is underrated too, her second ability is nasty and her final ability although it isn't terribly powerful can save you. lost several games to elspeth.
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a small sentence for you to read while you ignore my post.
its like the purpous of Time Spiral was to remember the old characters because they were never gonna been seen again.
That was the purpose. Urza, Teferi, Jaya, Mishra, Dominaria.... It's all gone now, never to be seen again unless Wizards throws pieces of them into new sets (Nicol Bolas).
I'm sure they'll cheat more into the picture- they understand that people are sad about not getting Teferi, Planeswalker, but if you knew anything about the original planeswalkers, you'd know that their power is like.. 10x more than the current walkers. O_o
I'm not sure how they are going to handle Nicol Bolas's power (it was supposed to be unreal), but I'm sure it has something to do with "Oh, he was weakened from X", or he'll cost like, 10 mana.
Yeh, NightArcher's got it. I wanted to put Lotus Bloom in parentheses after Black Lotus but I couldn't remember the name and spent 5 minutes staring at my computer screen typing and erasing Lotus Petal
How can you expect players not to abuse cards? Whatever WotC printed, if it was decent, people will try to abuse it.
They are a new card type and I agree that the lack of answers makes them powerful, however, they should print as many as they want. I just hope we never see uncommon Planeswalkers. Please, Wizards, not another Kamigawa Block.
Green have tarmogoyf (that small guy 7/8 for 1G) to hit the planeswalkers.
Black also have hand disruption to deal with them even before hitting the table.
we're talking about type 2 i thought. i dont care about planeswalkers outside of type2, they are easily dealt with by the myriad of counter spells, etc.
He meant you can tutor for your Lotus Bloom with Tezz for 0 loyalty, and it's just like a black lotus at that point.
I do not believe you can cause lotus bloom has no cost. It doesnt cost 0
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@Strangeuniverse: While you may not care about planeswalkers outside of T2, others play different formats. Just because there are better counterspells in those formats doesn't mean Tezzeret is auto-"dealt with".
@Talain: I didn't say that because it was powerful in vintage it would also be powerful in standard. However, it is played in Vintage and Extended and does some pretty nice things there, it is definately a powerful card.
You're right in that black has the least to deal with them but when is the last time there's been a mono-black deck in standard? I can't think of one recently.
Back to topic: I don't think it's to fun to play with too many Planeswalkers. But if the next tier1 deck is Planeswalker control, maybe they could restrict all Planeswalkers?
Ee.. maybe not, because, they wouldn't restrict Legendary Creatures.
But inside Wizards, they do have playtesting group, don't they?
- So they can foresee "unhealthy" cards, but lol, they did a bad job at Tarmogoyf.
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Island taps for U and cost zero. It should be banned.
I seriously am not in favor of this sudden rush of the planeswalker type. I think that they should be released one, per block, of each color or type, in the first set, and then no more.
Mainly because, I really don't want to see this game become Magic: The Planeswalkers.
I agree.
What I think, though, is that they needed this nine planeswalkers in order to tell good stories. I think, and I'd be very happy to be right, that we won't see more for at least two years.
It'd also be great if they just didn't print certain planeswalkers even ones that are in the novel, the same that they neglect to print certain legends - if the card would just suck, or other concerns (planeswalker conceptual space).
Lawl, Tarmogoyf. The ridiculous thing is that the card will only become stronger as the game ages. Come on, what if it can be a 10/11?!??!
Why didn't they just go with 2G. That's all it needed, 2G.
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Isn't the issue more along the lines of the absurd color fixing they've allowed to coincide with them? When people can do three colors with less hassles and self-inflicted damage than Ravnica allowed, there is something not right. Screw the land types, what mattered was the production it allowed.
BUT it has a converted mana cost of 0, which is what tezz is looking for.
I think someone should clear this up. I read the gather rulings and it keeps saying it doesn't have a mana cost..it doesn't say it has a converted 0 mana cost, but no mana in it.
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I think someone should clear this up. I read the gather rulings and it keeps saying it doesn't have a mana cost..it doesn't say it has a converted 0 mana cost, but no mana in it.
It doesn't have a mana cost, but it does have a converted mana cost. It's mana cost is (), or nothing, but its converted mana cost is zero. Thus you can fetch it with tezzeret for 0 counters. Like how you can search for lands, zero cost artifacts, and spells with no cost with tolaria west.
I think someone should clear this up. I read the gather rulings and it keeps saying it doesn't have a mana cost..it doesn't say it has a converted 0 mana cost, but no mana in it.
What's a converted 0 mana cost?
And what is a converted 0 mana cost but no mana in it?
In any case, just because an Oracle entry doesn't say something, doesn't mean it's not true. Grizzly Bears' Oracle entry doesn't say Grizzly Bears is green.
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Mainly because, I really don't want to see this game become Magic: The Planeswalkers.
I think planeswalkers should be something more special, more singularly potent. But when people are building 5 color planeswalker decks that can WIN in standard, I think it's silly and the type is being abused. One, maybe two planeswalkers per deck seems more fair (not limited to 1 or 2, but rather you can pick one or two planeswalkers and have 4 of them).
They need to be printing more planeswalkers like Tezzeret, and Ajani Vengeant.
These poorly designed cards like Sarkhan Vol, and Elspeth, who are simply good, designed to be good just for the sake of being good, and are good, a lot of times without much deck interaction, flat out suck.
That's my rant.
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If only that was what people had against affinity
I think they are coming out slowly enough myself.
Draft it on Cubetutor!
Once they are in play, you have to attack them or pithing needle or scourglass or oblivion ring or boomerang (and the likes.)
Green and black are completely screwed (besides Pithing needle) when it comes to dealing with planeswalkers.
Am I mistaken but isn't this exactly what they have done? Lorwyn was a big set and there were 5 in it. Shards is a big set and there are only 4 in it. How is this a "sudden rush"? It's less than 10 planeswalkers in 2 years.
Are you saying that planeswalkers should only be casually playable? Why shouldn't they be able to be played in tournaments? Why can't planeswalker decks win when artifact decks (affinity), creature decks (aggro), sorcry decks (Magnivore), and instant decks (control) all can win?
I find it funny that you think (in my opinion) the bad planeswalkers are good and the good ones bad. Mind you, I'm talking constructed.
Tezzeret is INSANE. In vintage, if he resolves then it's an auto win. First search for Time Vault, then keep untapping for infinite turns. In extended he fetchs Black Lotus for 0 counters.
Ajani Vengeant is amazing. Add loyalty counters to keep their biggest threat tapped down while you prepare for an armageddon? Or Lightning Helix every turn? The NUTS.
Sarkhan Vol however is horrible if you don't have lots of creatures to keep him alive. +1/+1 is ok, and the haste part doesnt matter since you wont be able to play something else the same turn. Threaten is fine, but you can get that for 1R. And the only way you can play the big ability is if you haven't attacked with the creatures you've given +1/+1.
Elspeth isn't too bad since he makes chump blockers and can also fly you over, but he's nothing insane. A good deck will be able to take care of him either by countering him or by attacking him, and I've won games when my opponent has used the ultimate ability. Evasion works wonders.
I think so far WoTC has done a wonderful job is their use of planeswalkers and I look forward to seeing more of them in the future.
EDIT: @Strangeuniverse
That's just not true. First of all, any color can attack the planeswalker.
Red has burn spells, Green should have enough creatures, Blue has control magic and evasion, White has Oring, Scourglass, etc, Black also has evasion.
You're right in that black has the least to deal with them but when is the last time there's been a mono-black deck in standard? I can't think of one recently.
I really don't feel anything for them. I mean all 9 of them could be wiped out in an explosion and I wouldn't feel any sense of nostalgia. It also doesn't help that we got introduced to most of them in Lorwyn without any flavour whatsoever... I would've preferred it if they somehow played an integral part in the block in which the card type made a debut. They made a mistake by not waiting until Alara or doing it in Future Sight to introduce us to them.
Don't get me wrong, I think the card type is well implemented and plays interestingly - but they feel like a dime a dosen.
Dude vintage is never a good argument for broken ANYTHING. :s
I never disagreed with this. He's really good. Though due to the nature of his abilities, strengths and weaknesses, he is not a candidate to be thrown in every deck that houses both red and white. Where I find nearly any deck that has white can just throw in elspeth and it does well, Ajani requires a defensive strategy around him. otherwise he just ends up being an expensive helix.
As for Sarkhan Vol and Elspeth, I've already spoke my piece about them.
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How not? Only a few cards at most from every set see any vintage play at all. For Tezzeret to do this means he has definately made an impression and isn't being used lightly.
Huh? Extended? Why did you mention Vintage first and then ignored it?:confused:
Ehm... Elspeth is a chick... that's part of her appeal.
But yeah, overall I agree with you, SK.
Too many planeswalker??? WT...(expletive)... well, you're entitled to that opinion.
They certainly aren't my favorite card type, and I don't particularly love them, but I sure wish they were a lot more of them, and I wish they were more common (you know, that way they would be less insane, and there would be plenty of ways to deal with them...). I certainly think there will be a Planeswalker-based block/set sometime soon, and then they will be liked by more people.
I like 4/4s for 7.
I think 5 per block feels fine. 1 per set wouldn't be terrible- they'd certainly be special- but then color distribution would be offset a bit. And one color getting screwed out of planeswalkers isn't fun. (Black has yet to get a new planeswalker, and even though Nicol Bolas will very likely be at LEAST UBR, possibly mono black, PWs are powerful enough that it feels better when everybody has access to them)
Eternal formats ARE NOT taken into account when making new sets. They are based around the rule of "Vintage can handle anything thrown at it", and if something doesn't work, they'll restrict/ban.
Never base anything off of eternal... Wizards has publicly stated that they could care less. That's both good (otherwise they'd never get new cards to play with... unless the card is broken in that format, it doesn't see play), and bad (bannings).
As of now, it would be nice to have a few more direct answers- some new kind of burn available to black- but otherwise, I could care less. If you really cared, you'd realize that if you were that desperate to kill a planeswalker, you'd actually run cards to answer it, and not complain about it while doing nothing. Go buy Pithing Needles then- they answer them very well.
And last but not least, Elspeth is one of the best planeswalkers in the set. (for type 2)
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However I do think they are very powerful cards. Elspeth is underrated too, her second ability is nasty and her final ability although it isn't terribly powerful can save you. lost several games to elspeth.
That was the purpose. Urza, Teferi, Jaya, Mishra, Dominaria.... It's all gone now, never to be seen again unless Wizards throws pieces of them into new sets (Nicol Bolas).
I'm sure they'll cheat more into the picture- they understand that people are sad about not getting Teferi, Planeswalker, but if you knew anything about the original planeswalkers, you'd know that their power is like.. 10x more than the current walkers. O_o
I'm not sure how they are going to handle Nicol Bolas's power (it was supposed to be unreal), but I'm sure it has something to do with "Oh, he was weakened from X", or he'll cost like, 10 mana.
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He meant you can tutor for your Lotus Bloom with Tezz for 0 loyalty, and it's just like a black lotus at that point.
They are a new card type and I agree that the lack of answers makes them powerful, however, they should print as many as they want. I just hope we never see uncommon Planeswalkers. Please, Wizards, not another Kamigawa Block.
"Can you apply the penal code to demons?"
we're talking about type 2 i thought. i dont care about planeswalkers outside of type2, they are easily dealt with by the myriad of counter spells, etc.
I do not believe you can cause lotus bloom has no cost. It doesnt cost 0
@Talain: I didn't say that because it was powerful in vintage it would also be powerful in standard. However, it is played in Vintage and Extended and does some pretty nice things there, it is definately a powerful card.
We did have Nantuko Shade+Mutilateand Cabal Coffers a while ago..
Back to topic: I don't think it's to fun to play with too many Planeswalkers. But if the next tier1 deck is Planeswalker control, maybe they could restrict all Planeswalkers?
Ee.. maybe not, because, they wouldn't restrict Legendary Creatures.
But inside Wizards, they do have playtesting group, don't they?
- So they can foresee "unhealthy" cards, but lol, they did a bad job at Tarmogoyf.
I agree.
What I think, though, is that they needed this nine planeswalkers in order to tell good stories. I think, and I'd be very happy to be right, that we won't see more for at least two years.
It'd also be great if they just didn't print certain planeswalkers even ones that are in the novel, the same that they neglect to print certain legends - if the card would just suck, or other concerns (planeswalker conceptual space).
Lawl, Tarmogoyf. The ridiculous thing is that the card will only become stronger as the game ages. Come on, what if it can be a 10/11?!??!
Why didn't they just go with 2G. That's all it needed, 2G.
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Isn't the issue more along the lines of the absurd color fixing they've allowed to coincide with them? When people can do three colors with less hassles and self-inflicted damage than Ravnica allowed, there is something not right. Screw the land types, what mattered was the production it allowed.
I think someone should clear this up. I read the gather rulings and it keeps saying it doesn't have a mana cost..it doesn't say it has a converted 0 mana cost, but no mana in it.
It doesn't have a mana cost, but it does have a converted mana cost. It's mana cost is (), or nothing, but its converted mana cost is zero. Thus you can fetch it with tezzeret for 0 counters. Like how you can search for lands, zero cost artifacts, and spells with no cost with tolaria west.
What's a converted 0 mana cost?
And what is a converted 0 mana cost but no mana in it?
In any case, just because an Oracle entry doesn't say something, doesn't mean it's not true. Grizzly Bears' Oracle entry doesn't say Grizzly Bears is green.
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