Stoneforge mystic was awful until feast and famine came out. Then you literally had 1 card to tutor up. Batterskull made it great. 9 months later when it came out.
This is simply not true. Stoneforge Mystic started to see competitive play immediately following its release because it could fetch Basillisk Collar from your deck, which was awesome with Cunning Sparkmage, and Craig Wescoe also got Stoneforge into its first legal Top 8 playing White Weenie, using it to search out Basillisk Collar (again) and a few other 1 of artifacts. It certainly was not awful, and once it caught on its was one of the most heavily played cards in Standard, even before Worlds 2010 and the emergence of Cawblade as an archetype. Batterskull just made a problematic card that much worse.
People hating on cards because they only read them at surface value and use those snap decisions as a means of never considering the card in a more braodened sense does, in fact, make them haters. While oftimes it is easy to tell which cards were created for which player demographics, 'want to be' Spikes are perhaps the hardest to please, because unless a card is obviously powerful and game changing they will immediately decry it as being useless trash that no one will play. It's just as idiotic as saying Snapcaster Mage was not going to be any good.
So, the new mechanic is basically reverse persist. Simple, yet it works great flavor-wise. Could be useful at least in casual play with proliferate or other things that manipulate +1/+1 counters.
EDIT: Chalice of Life/Chalice of Death could well be useful in Standard depending on local metagames; it can be run in decks that run Vault Skirge or other things that have or enable lifelink (Butcher's Cleaver, etc).
slash panther isn't good. It is only good in a format that possesses mishra workshop. Does that make it good? No. Everyone called it bad for good reason. It is. Stoneforge mystic was awful until feast and famine came out. Then you literally had 1 card to tutor up. Batterskull made it great. 9 months later when it came out. Slash panther is not good. It's an artifact to be abused with workshop. For the same cost you get hero of oxid ridge in every fomat panther is allowed. Same mana cost power and toughness.
Why ever use panther in anything other than limited or vintage? You wouldn't. The logic in your argument is a bit flawed. There are plenty of cards that are obviously bad or not useful. People realizing that.doesnt make them haters.
Heh. Actually Stoneforge Mystic saw plenty of play before Feast and Famine with Behemoth Sledge and Basilisk Collar in Mystic WW. Awful is hardly the word I'd use.
It would seem to, but it's not as nice as it seems. If a creature with undying had some +1/+1 counters on it, they won't be removed in time. The mechanics article specifically mentions that.
Not if you BSZ for 1! To give all your opponent's creatures -1/-1 semi-permanently and recharge your undying, it would work.
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With fateful hour, how relevant does phyrexian unlife become? Or does that just seem too cute?
It depends on how good Fateful Hour abilities will be. So far, nothing really impressive has come out for it... and it has to be some game-breaking effect to be worth the risk of putting yourself inside Brimstone Volley's killing range.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but undying creatures just love Cauldron of Souls. Let's just speak purely from Strangleroot Geist. It's a 3/2 creature. It's about to die, give it persist. It dies, has no -1/-1 counters, comes back thanks to persist. It now dies to having 0 toughness, but since it had no +1/+1 counters it comes back due to undying. Now that's how you keep creatures alive! This obviously only happens with 1 toughness creatures, but anything higher would still come back to have some fun with a -1/-1 counter on it (and when it dies again it's undying!). Of course this would only work for a casual or EDH type deck, but it seems rather fun.
Really you wouldnt play a reverse Kitchen Finks with haste instead of life gain? Don't overlook the benefit of having Haste, especially against control. And, oh yeah, this guy is ONE MANA LESS THAN FINKS. And Gravecrawler is obviously powerful. The token sorcery is also competitive.
That's out of a small batch of spoiled cards..
Can't please em all, eh?
I know right. I love 90% of this block, but honestly my complaint is that this green card is WAY too powerful.
We have different ideas of overpowered then. I'd just rather see powerful cards that will last longer than their term in standard.
Indeed we do. Kitchen finks is played in huge number of Modern decks. This has haste, cost one less mana, and getes bigger when it comes back.
Sure, it doesn't gain life and its harder to splash but I could easily see this going into Rock decks in modern. I don't understand hot this card is not rock solid powerful.
Is it just me or is undying kind OP? Not only does it dodge removal, it comes back stronger? It's a control decks nightmare. "I'm going to wrath here to save my... oh my god."
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Have all of today's spoilers been given already? I seem to remember that MaRo was going to reveal some on his own through social media outlets, but I may have misunderstood.
Increasing Confusion seems really good to me. You can either carefully mill yourself or mill-Fireball your opponent at least twice. What's not to love!
Is it just me or is undying kind OP? Not only does it dodge removal, it comes back stronger? It's a control decks nightmare. "I'm going to wrath here to save my... oh my god."
Bring it on!
No, really, it's not that different from finks. Geist fits more an aggro strategy while finks is more controlish.
Btw, noone has uploaded that full art geist?
This is simply not true. Stoneforge Mystic started to see competitive play immediately following its release because it could fetch Basillisk Collar from your deck, which was awesome with Cunning Sparkmage, and Craig Wescoe also got Stoneforge into its first legal Top 8 playing White Weenie, using it to search out Basillisk Collar (again) and a few other 1 of artifacts. It certainly was not awful, and once it caught on its was one of the most heavily played cards in Standard, even before Worlds 2010 and the emergence of Cawblade as an archetype. Batterskull just made a problematic card that much worse.
I think more than this it was showing up in Legacy in Excalibur!, D&T, and some U/W tempo lists. It was always an amazing card, batterskull just caused it to explode.
I think more than this it was showing up in Legacy in Excalibur!, D&T, and some U/W tempo lists. It was always an amazing card, batterskull just caused it to explode.
Well tons of cards work like that.
Good and more or less "fair" till some other cards make it stupid.
Goblin Welder / Goblin Lackey even Tinker is a card that simply became stupid with Darksteel and even more with the upcomming even more stupid artifact creatures.
Protean Hulk anyone ?
Tons and tons of cards that follow this problem.
The good is to identify cards with potential and buy as many as you can if they are at 0,50$ to sell them for 20$+ later.
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I hoped to have Zombie Apokalypse be "destroy all creatures" instead of just humans, made me a little unhappy, even while the name is cool, i might never play the card and it is simply not "good enough".
Undying on the other hand is a mechanic that is sick like persist (at least on the boosted creatures) and potentially problematic combo cards if you can break the little +1/+1 counter.
*But its funny as removing -1/-1 counters was a lot easier with all the +1/+1 mechanics around.
Gravecrawler seems to "scream" combo card ; in worst we will see more black beatdown, as we have a decent amount of 1 drops in black zombies.
I have found the Demon could be fun.
If I lifelink the demon, the 9 damage means nothing right? Right.
Plus if I have say Disciple of Griselbrand I can decide whether to sac and smack or sac for 9 life right?
Could be fun indeed.
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Gravecrawlers sold out for 3$, now selling at 5$ on SCG. This card gets my vote for most overpriced card of the set so far. Meanwhile, thraben doomsayer sitting on 3$, waiting for some clueless buyer to pay for him.
Fateful hour... it's only the third mechanic they steal from me. I think I'm going to work for Wizards now. After the faction theme from Mirrodin Besieged, the Reinforce mechanic from Morningtide (although I created it through another type of counters), now they steal this from me!!
Fateful hour... it's only the third mechanic they steal from me. I think I'm going to work for Wizards now. After the faction theme from Mirrodin Besieged, the Reinforce mechanic from Morningtide (although I created it through another type of counters), now they steal this from me!!
Is it just me or is undying kind OP? Not only does it dodge removal, it comes back stronger? It's a control decks nightmare. "I'm going to wrath here to save my... oh my god."
They're going to go on different cards. Double Strike isn't OP because it goes on bad creatures generally. Persist cards generally had a CiP ability that triggered, and were useful creatures the first time around that got weaker. Undying creatures look like they are going to be largely uninteresting and weak the first time around but stronger the second time.
It creates a completely different dynamic and should be interesting to see how they build the Undying cards.
So Undying is like persist but better? I thought they were trying to lower the power level.
That might be a valid complaint if they were reprinting Persist creatures with Undying instead. Undying is more powerful than Persist, but Undying creatures will likely be weaker than Persist creatures to compensate for that.
Double Strike is better than First Strike, but not every Double Strike creature is better than every First Strike creature, because Wizards accounts for the power level of mechanics when designing cards.
That might be a valid complaint if they were reprinting Persist creatures with Undying instead. Undying is more powerful than Persist, but Undying creatures will likely be weaker than Persist creatures to compensate for that.
Agreed. Having Haste is arguably much less abusable than gaining 2 life twice or shocking something twice. (Kitchen Finks and Murderous Redcap)
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This is simply not true. Stoneforge Mystic started to see competitive play immediately following its release because it could fetch Basillisk Collar from your deck, which was awesome with Cunning Sparkmage, and Craig Wescoe also got Stoneforge into its first legal Top 8 playing White Weenie, using it to search out Basillisk Collar (again) and a few other 1 of artifacts. It certainly was not awful, and once it caught on its was one of the most heavily played cards in Standard, even before Worlds 2010 and the emergence of Cawblade as an archetype. Batterskull just made a problematic card that much worse.
People hating on cards because they only read them at surface value and use those snap decisions as a means of never considering the card in a more braodened sense does, in fact, make them haters. While oftimes it is easy to tell which cards were created for which player demographics, 'want to be' Spikes are perhaps the hardest to please, because unless a card is obviously powerful and game changing they will immediately decry it as being useless trash that no one will play. It's just as idiotic as saying Snapcaster Mage was not going to be any good.
EDIT: Chalice of Life/Chalice of Death could well be useful in Standard depending on local metagames; it can be run in decks that run Vault Skirge or other things that have or enable lifelink (Butcher's Cleaver, etc).
Heh. Actually Stoneforge Mystic saw plenty of play before Feast and Famine with Behemoth Sledge and Basilisk Collar in Mystic WW. Awful is hardly the word I'd use.
Not if you BSZ for 1! To give all your opponent's creatures -1/-1 semi-permanently and recharge your undying, it would work.
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not only that. if you'r creatures didn't have any +1/+1 counters to begin with, they'll still come back and you can pump BSZ at will.
the problem will only be if they have the counters already.
It depends on how good Fateful Hour abilities will be. So far, nothing really impressive has come out for it... and it has to be some game-breaking effect to be worth the risk of putting yourself inside Brimstone Volley's killing range.
Phyrexian Unlife is better off enabling Ad Nauseam combos, instead.
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Indeed we do. Kitchen finks is played in huge number of Modern decks. This has haste, cost one less mana, and getes bigger when it comes back.
Sure, it doesn't gain life and its harder to splash but I could easily see this going into Rock decks in modern. I don't understand hot this card is not rock solid powerful.
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Bring it on!
No, really, it's not that different from finks. Geist fits more an aggro strategy while finks is more controlish.
Btw, noone has uploaded that full art geist?
I think more than this it was showing up in Legacy in Excalibur!, D&T, and some U/W tempo lists. It was always an amazing card, batterskull just caused it to explode.
Well tons of cards work like that.
Good and more or less "fair" till some other cards make it stupid.
Goblin Welder / Goblin Lackey even Tinker is a card that simply became stupid with Darksteel and even more with the upcomming even more stupid artifact creatures.
Protean Hulk anyone ?
Tons and tons of cards that follow this problem.
The good is to identify cards with potential and buy as many as you can if they are at 0,50$ to sell them for 20$+ later.
Magic christmas land.
I hoped to have Zombie Apokalypse be "destroy all creatures" instead of just humans, made me a little unhappy, even while the name is cool, i might never play the card and it is simply not "good enough".
Undying on the other hand is a mechanic that is sick like persist (at least on the boosted creatures) and potentially problematic combo cards if you can break the little +1/+1 counter.
*But its funny as removing -1/-1 counters was a lot easier with all the +1/+1 mechanics around.
Gravecrawler seems to "scream" combo card ; in worst we will see more black beatdown, as we have a decent amount of 1 drops in black zombies.
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If I lifelink the demon, the 9 damage means nothing right? Right.
Plus if I have say Disciple of Griselbrand I can decide whether to sac and smack or sac for 9 life right?
Could be fun indeed.
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So what? If you get a good design idea, would you prefer to mark it "off-limit" forever so Wizards could never use it?
They're going to go on different cards. Double Strike isn't OP because it goes on bad creatures generally. Persist cards generally had a CiP ability that triggered, and were useful creatures the first time around that got weaker. Undying creatures look like they are going to be largely uninteresting and weak the first time around but stronger the second time.
It creates a completely different dynamic and should be interesting to see how they build the Undying cards.
I was being sarcastic :D, but ok.
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That might be a valid complaint if they were reprinting Persist creatures with Undying instead. Undying is more powerful than Persist, but Undying creatures will likely be weaker than Persist creatures to compensate for that.
Double Strike is better than First Strike, but not every Double Strike creature is better than every First Strike creature, because Wizards accounts for the power level of mechanics when designing cards.
Agreed. Having Haste is arguably much less abusable than gaining 2 life twice or shocking something twice. (Kitchen Finks and Murderous Redcap)
"Of course you should fight fire with fire. You should fight everything with fire." - Jaya Ballard