Other than my sideboard with enlightened tutor, my whole legacy deck also is legal in modern except mother of runes and vindicate, which can be replaced by oblivion ring. And stp, but it's obvious stp->path.
I said in an earlier post I was happy about Modern because it would allow me to play Bubble Hulk outside of legacy. Then I remembered that that some cards are from Scourge and earlier...
Maybe if I browse through gatherer some more, I might be able to find some substitutes.
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Legacy WUBRGBubble HulkWUBRG BGThe SicknessGB
EDH WGCaptain SisayGW GUEdric, Spymaster of Card-AdvantageUG
Has a vanilla creature other than Kird Ape ever been Banned?
Tarmo has no protections and no evasions. I don't really think he's bannable.
I think that a Tarmogoyf ban would probably be a good thing for the health of the format. He just makes too many other creatures irrelevant and would likely turn into a Jace-level barrier to entry in the format. Let him live on in Legacy.
While the format COULD have potential, I strongly dislike the banlist and the fact that almost surely it will just a revival of various decks from the past... on steroids! The only hope for this format is making it pseudo-eternal without rotating it, and even then I'm not sure that people will like it (I'd have liked a little better an Invasion+ format with a more decent banlist).
I think that a Tarmogoyf ban would probably be a good thing for the health of the format. He just makes too many other creatures irrelevant and would likely turn into a Jace-level barrier to entry in the format. Let him live on in Legacy.
I can appreciate this sentiment, especiually since, ya know, i dont own any goyfs. But yeah it makes a lot of stuff irrelevant, and automatically make for a less diverse array of decklist. I built a Doran list and I was like why am I even using Doran. I have access to all the creatures they do in Legacy and almost no one uses Doran in Rock anymore.
I think that a Tarmogoyf ban would probably be a good thing for the health of the format. He just makes too many other creatures irrelevant and would likely turn into a Jace-level barrier to entry in the format. Let him live on in Legacy.
If your deck can't deal with a Tarmogoyf, you should not play that deck. A two-mana vanilla creature is nothing worth banning. Sorry guys.
Edit: this is RE: Kira-Kun, not some random spam comment.
Sorry I should have been more specific, I meant the mana-base. It's hard to find something close to Sulfur Vents and Tinder Farm. But Viscera Seer is a fantastic replacement for carrion feeder as a sac outlet, thanks.
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Legacy WUBRGBubble HulkWUBRG BGThe SicknessGB
EDH WGCaptain SisayGW GUEdric, Spymaster of Card-AdvantageUG
If your deck can't deal with a Tarmogoyf, you should not play that deck. A two-mana vanilla creature is nothing worth banning. Sorry guys.
Barrier to Entry refers to a card's price. Since Goyf is on a quasi-reserved list (as it's almost impossible to see how you could logistically reprint him), his price, long-term is a significant concern, as almost any green-based deck will have to run four copies. Jace is probably the same way (a reprint would be difficult), but Jace is far, far more likely to be kept in check by other decks in the format.
Sorry I should have been more specific, I meant the mana-base. It's hard to find something close to Sulfur Vents and Tinder Farm. But Viscera Seer is a fantastic replacement for carrion feeder as a sac outlet, thanks.
Barrier to Entry refers to a card's price. Since Goyf is on a quasi-reserved list (as it's almost impossible to see how you could logistically reprint him), his price, long-term is a significant concern, as almost any green-based deck will have to run four copies. Jace is probably the same way (a reprint would be difficult), but Jace is far, far more likely to be kept in check by other decks in the format.
So we should auto-ban every playable card that crosses some imaginary price threshold? Don't be silly.
Currently I play Standard and EDH. I was thinking about Overextended, but nobody else that I know was. If modern becomes a offical format then I can see some of my friends being interested. I started when Ravnica came out and it would be nice to revisit some of my older deck ideas without needing to worry about them rotating out nor them being completely overshadowed by extremely hard (and now unprintable) cards.
Cards were banned in Legacy when the ban list was made separate from the reserve list in large part due to price.
Can you link me to that announcement? The current status quo conflicts with that archaic decision (and with good reason). They didn't ban Goyf when it was $90 in old Extended or Jace when he was $100. They didn't ban Candelabras in Legacy for being $300 or Tabernacles for being close to that.
I find it almost impossible that they would ban Goyf now for being merely $60-70.
So we should auto-ban every playable card that crosses some imaginary price threshold? Don't be silly.
There have been more arbitrary bans then a potential ban on goyf. But really goyf is not powerful enough to really warp the format. He gets close but not close enough. At what point does a vanilla creature require banning? 2 mana for 20/20?
But how can you not reprint Goyf? Just stick him in as a 1 of in some FTV or promo and watch his price go downa bit.
Barrier to Entry refers to a card's price. Since Goyf is on a quasi-reserved list (as it's almost impossible to see how you could logistically reprint him), his price, long-term is a significant concern, as almost any green-based deck will have to run four copies. Jace is probably the same way (a reprint would be difficult), but Jace is far, far more likely to be kept in check by other decks in the format.
Well, if Innistrad is the graveyard set most are expecting, and you consider that 'goyf is in a 'future-shifted' frame, they could just throw him in there. Especially if they put him up against the Delve mechanic, and all the graveyard hate that keeps popping up.
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Afro Dave, @st4rwind on Twitter
Level 2 Judge
Legacy Decks:
- Deadguy Ale WB
- Imperial Bloodwolf R
- Rifter RW
- Rockman WBG
- Burn R
- T.E.S. WUBRG
- Belcher RG
- 10 Land Stompy G
- Zoo (budget) RGW
Can you link me to that announcement? The current status quo conflicts with that archaic decision (and with good reason). They didn't ban Goyf when it was $90 in old Extended or Jace when he was $100. They didn't ban Candelabras in Legacy for being $300 or Tabernacles for being close to that.
I find it almost impossible that they would ban Goyf now for being merely $60-70.
The problem is that as player demand for him increases (due to people wanting to play the new format) and the number of players playing Magic in total increases, there's no way that price stays at $60-70. Banning Goyf would essentially "future proof" the format to Legacy-style issues, because Goyf is essentially on the reserve list. If you think he could pop up in an expansion again, you are badly mistaken. http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtgcom/daily/af30
Note, too, that the power level of many of these cards, combined with their scarcity, presented a major barrier to entry to the format for many players.
That barrier to entry issue is an enormous one, because people can't play if they're unable to obtain the cards necessary to compete. Legacy has enormous barriers to entry due to the scarcity of the cards- it's why there's a 50%+ drop off from Day 1 to Day 2 at the SCG opens, and why Legacy is not a supportable or sustainable format- it can't accommodate new players. They essentially have to "buy out" an existing one.
Jace, TMS is currently a barrier to entry in Standard. However, it's not readily apparent whether this is due to him being too good (as he's clearly been acceptable, power-level wise , in other formats) or whether its other issues with the format, like the total absense of Tier 1 aggro decks, that is leading to him becoming such.
It's the Legacy-type issues, with only a set number of Tarmogoyfs out there, and no indication that WoTC will ever reprint him, that make a ban justifiable- there's a set supply, and any demand increase is going to lead to very, very large price increases.
The problem is that as player demand for him increases (due to people wanting to play the new format) and the number of players playing Magic in total increases, there's no way that price stays at $60-70. Banning Goyf would essentially "future proof" the format to Legacy-style issues, because Goyf is essentially on the reserve list. If you think he could pop up in an expansion again, you are badly mistaken. http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtgcom/daily/af30
That barrier to entry issue is an enormous one, because people can't play if they're unable to obtain the cards necessary to compete. Legacy has enormous barriers to entry due to the scarcity of the cards- it's why there's a 50%+ drop off from Day 1 to Day 2 at the SCG opens, and why Legacy is not a supportable or sustainable format- it can't accommodate new players. They essentially have to "buy out" an existing one.
Jace, TMS is currently a barrier to entry in Standard. However, it's not readily apparent whether this is due to him being too good (as he's clearly been acceptable, power-level wise , in other formats) or whether its other issues with the format, like the total absense of Tier 1 aggro decks, that is leading to him becoming such.
It's the Legacy-type issues, with only a set number of Tarmogoyfs out there, and no indication that WoTC will ever reprint him, that make a ban justifiable- there's a set supply, and any demand increase is going to lead to very, very large price increases.
There is no reason to believe they won't reprint Tarm in a FTV or some sort of Duel Decks. Saying his is on a quasi-reserved list is just wrong. Even if he isn't ever reprinted, you don't ban cards for being expensive. They've never done it before, why would they start now?
There is no reason to believe they won't reprint Tarm in a FTV or some sort of Duel Decks. Saying his is on a quasi-reserved list is just wrong. Even if he isn't ever reprinted, you don't ban cards for being expensive. They've never done it before, why would they start now?
An FTV is very possible, but historically those reprints have been shown to have next to zero effect on a card's price.
He will never appear in a Duel Deck. Period. They are aimed at casual players, and WoTC has publicly stated that they avoid putting tournament staples in there because they want them to be sold for MSRP. Swords/Factory were a test case in Elspeth v Tezz, and unfortunately confirmed their instincts.
"High Power Level" + "Scarcity" = High price tags = High barrier to entry to a format. They absolutely have taken price into consideration in the past, are likely taking it into consideration today when considering bans in Standard, and they should definitely take it into consideration with a brand new format. There is virtually no chance of Tarmogoyf ever seeing a reprint, and as such, that should definitely be considered when creating a "sustainable" Eternal format.
Who thinks that they wont just make some other promotional item (like FTV) that could come out in large numbers, and reduce the prices of Tarmogoyfs?
And to the poster who said they don't lower the price, you're wrong. They don't lower the price of the original by a lot, but the FTV counterparts are significantly less than their over priced brothers. If you want a card to compete with, they work just as well.
Without a reserve list, Wizards is very likely to reprint 'staple' cards in a new format. If it generates revenue, they will do it. No debate.
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Rules Advisor as of 4/23/10
Regarding Stoneforge Mystic
Quote from oranges2 »
This guy, would either eat up several turns worth of mana to get a slow permanent that relies on your already have some board presence (after wasting said mana), or dies without generating any advantage.
Who thinks that they wont just make some other promotional item (like FTV) that could come out in large numbers, and reduce the prices of Tarmogoyfs?
And to the poster who said they don't lower the price, you're wrong. They don't lower the price of the original by a lot, but the FTV counterparts are significantly less than their over priced brothers. If you want a card to compete with, they work just as well.
Without a reserve list, Wizards is very likely to reprint 'staple' cards in a new format. If it generates revenue, they will do it. No debate.
FTV does not come out in large numbers. The problem is that if you put a Goyf in a promotional item, you add about $50 to the price tag. FTV is the only time they WANT this to happen, as the set is intended to be a "reward" for local retailers.
I said in an earlier post I was happy about Modern because it would allow me to play Bubble Hulk outside of legacy. Then I remembered that that some cards are from Scourge and earlier...
Maybe if I browse through gatherer some more, I might be able to find some substitutes.
WUBRGBubble HulkWUBRG
BGThe SicknessGB
EDH
WGCaptain SisayGW
GUEdric, Spymaster of Card-AdvantageUG
Body Double->Reveillark,Mogg Fanatic
Edit: this is RE: Kira-Kun, not some random spam comment.
Edit: Oh, hey, Modern is a format.
Has a vanilla creature other than Kird Ape ever been Banned?
Tarmo has no protections and no evasions. I don't really think he's bannable.
Prevent Dredge.dec from just demolishing the format.
I think that a Tarmogoyf ban would probably be a good thing for the health of the format. He just makes too many other creatures irrelevant and would likely turn into a Jace-level barrier to entry in the format. Let him live on in Legacy.
Current post- Grand Prix KC Modern Postmortem (7/7/13)
I like the affinity list. It's almost peasant playable. Probably use atog instead of ravager. lol
Isnt Incinerate strictly better than tribal flames?
I can appreciate this sentiment, especiually since, ya know, i dont own any goyfs. But yeah it makes a lot of stuff irrelevant, and automatically make for a less diverse array of decklist. I built a Doran list and I was like why am I even using Doran. I have access to all the creatures they do in Legacy and almost no one uses Doran in Rock anymore.
If your deck can't deal with a Tarmogoyf, you should not play that deck. A two-mana vanilla creature is nothing worth banning. Sorry guys.
Edit: Oh, hey, Modern is a format.
Sorry I should have been more specific, I meant the mana-base. It's hard to find something close to Sulfur Vents and Tinder Farm. But Viscera Seer is a fantastic replacement for carrion feeder as a sac outlet, thanks.
WUBRGBubble HulkWUBRG
BGThe SicknessGB
EDH
WGCaptain SisayGW
GUEdric, Spymaster of Card-AdvantageUG
Barrier to Entry refers to a card's price. Since Goyf is on a quasi-reserved list (as it's almost impossible to see how you could logistically reprint him), his price, long-term is a significant concern, as almost any green-based deck will have to run four copies. Jace is probably the same way (a reprint would be difficult), but Jace is far, far more likely to be kept in check by other decks in the format.
Current post- Grand Prix KC Modern Postmortem (7/7/13)
Simian Spirit Guide, Rite of Flame, Seething Song, Pentad Prism, Footsteps of the Goryo can help you ramp one out at a similar pace as the old mana-ramp-sac-lands-or-whatever-they're-called. It's not the same, obviously, though.
So we should auto-ban every playable card that crosses some imaginary price threshold? Don't be silly.
Edit: Oh, hey, Modern is a format.
Current post- Grand Prix KC Modern Postmortem (7/7/13)
Can you link me to that announcement? The current status quo conflicts with that archaic decision (and with good reason). They didn't ban Goyf when it was $90 in old Extended or Jace when he was $100. They didn't ban Candelabras in Legacy for being $300 or Tabernacles for being close to that.
I find it almost impossible that they would ban Goyf now for being merely $60-70.
Edit: Oh, hey, Modern is a format.
The deck I have already have uses Simian Spirit Guide and Seething song and Footsteps. Rite might help a bit. Also doesn't help that Chrome Mox is banned.
WUBRGBubble HulkWUBRG
BGThe SicknessGB
EDH
WGCaptain SisayGW
GUEdric, Spymaster of Card-AdvantageUG
There have been more arbitrary bans then a potential ban on goyf. But really goyf is not powerful enough to really warp the format. He gets close but not close enough. At what point does a vanilla creature require banning? 2 mana for 20/20?
But how can you not reprint Goyf? Just stick him in as a 1 of in some FTV or promo and watch his price go downa bit.
http://www.blogger.com/blogger.g?blogID=317475478823307368#overview/src=dashboard
Like reading magic theory?
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Are you a navy Nuke?
http://blueconceptnavynuke.blogspot.com/2012/08/captains-mast-at-nnptc.html
Well, if Innistrad is the graveyard set most are expecting, and you consider that 'goyf is in a 'future-shifted' frame, they could just throw him in there. Especially if they put him up against the Delve mechanic, and all the graveyard hate that keeps popping up.
Afro Dave, @st4rwind on Twitter
Level 2 Judge
Legacy Decks:
- Imperial Bloodwolf R
- Rifter RW
- Rockman WBG
- Burn R
- T.E.S. WUBRG
- Belcher RG
- 10 Land Stompy G
- Zoo (budget) RGW
Have you tried Pentad Prism? I loved that card in old extended TEPS decks.
You should make a thread for the Hulk Breach deck so we don't have to keep spamming people in here. I'd be interested in hearing others' views on it.
Edit: Oh, hey, Modern is a format.
Pentad Prism is...Fifth Dawn..is that Mirrodin block? And i'm actually working on that right now.
WUBRGBubble HulkWUBRG
BGThe SicknessGB
EDH
WGCaptain SisayGW
GUEdric, Spymaster of Card-AdvantageUG
The problem is that as player demand for him increases (due to people wanting to play the new format) and the number of players playing Magic in total increases, there's no way that price stays at $60-70. Banning Goyf would essentially "future proof" the format to Legacy-style issues, because Goyf is essentially on the reserve list. If you think he could pop up in an expansion again, you are badly mistaken.
http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtgcom/daily/af30
That barrier to entry issue is an enormous one, because people can't play if they're unable to obtain the cards necessary to compete. Legacy has enormous barriers to entry due to the scarcity of the cards- it's why there's a 50%+ drop off from Day 1 to Day 2 at the SCG opens, and why Legacy is not a supportable or sustainable format- it can't accommodate new players. They essentially have to "buy out" an existing one.
Jace, TMS is currently a barrier to entry in Standard. However, it's not readily apparent whether this is due to him being too good (as he's clearly been acceptable, power-level wise , in other formats) or whether its other issues with the format, like the total absense of Tier 1 aggro decks, that is leading to him becoming such.
It's the Legacy-type issues, with only a set number of Tarmogoyfs out there, and no indication that WoTC will ever reprint him, that make a ban justifiable- there's a set supply, and any demand increase is going to lead to very, very large price increases.
Current post- Grand Prix KC Modern Postmortem (7/7/13)
There is no reason to believe they won't reprint Tarm in a FTV or some sort of Duel Decks. Saying his is on a quasi-reserved list is just wrong. Even if he isn't ever reprinted, you don't ban cards for being expensive. They've never done it before, why would they start now?
Check out http://www.mtgbrodeals.com/author/john-murphy/ for my EDH articles!
An FTV is very possible, but historically those reprints have been shown to have next to zero effect on a card's price.
He will never appear in a Duel Deck. Period. They are aimed at casual players, and WoTC has publicly stated that they avoid putting tournament staples in there because they want them to be sold for MSRP. Swords/Factory were a test case in Elspeth v Tezz, and unfortunately confirmed their instincts.
"High Power Level" + "Scarcity" = High price tags = High barrier to entry to a format. They absolutely have taken price into consideration in the past, are likely taking it into consideration today when considering bans in Standard, and they should definitely take it into consideration with a brand new format. There is virtually no chance of Tarmogoyf ever seeing a reprint, and as such, that should definitely be considered when creating a "sustainable" Eternal format.
Current post- Grand Prix KC Modern Postmortem (7/7/13)
And to the poster who said they don't lower the price, you're wrong. They don't lower the price of the original by a lot, but the FTV counterparts are significantly less than their over priced brothers. If you want a card to compete with, they work just as well.
Without a reserve list, Wizards is very likely to reprint 'staple' cards in a new format. If it generates revenue, they will do it. No debate.
Rules Advisor as of 4/23/10
Regarding Stoneforge Mystic
FTV does not come out in large numbers. The problem is that if you put a Goyf in a promotional item, you add about $50 to the price tag. FTV is the only time they WANT this to happen, as the set is intended to be a "reward" for local retailers.
Current post- Grand Prix KC Modern Postmortem (7/7/13)
WUBRGBubble HulkWUBRG
BGThe SicknessGB
EDH
WGCaptain SisayGW
GUEdric, Spymaster of Card-AdvantageUG