Mana Leak is not a tempo card, so why should the card that replaces it be any less of a tempo card. Delver is a Tempo deck, not an aggro deck, as aggro really only runs creatures and direct damage spells (maybe a couple of removal spells too). Delver uses cheap blue instants to put their opponent off their tempo, while maintaining pressure by way of cheap evasive creatures so it is clearly a tempo deck.
CA is really poor at the moment in Standard (from what I can tell), so hurting it more would be very bad.
CA isn't poor in Standard. It isn't amazing, like it was with cards like Remand, but it isn't poor. And if you look at Rites of Refusal, it only hurts CA by about 30% (flashback cards), less if you are using it with Snapcaster in the same deck. It actually brings balance to an otherwise unbalanced situation.
I will give you that Delver is a tempo deck, by definition. However, from my experience, it is the bounce that keeps Delver ahead in tempo far more than the counters. For instance, I have seen several top 8 Delver decks that only ran one or two Mana Leaks, whereas if Leak were so important to it maintaining its tempo edge, you would expect to ALWAYS see 3 or 4.
However, Delver is not solely tempo. One major argument about Delver not being aggro is Geist of Saint Traft, arguably one of the more important cards in the deck. That card is extremely aggro. Just because it does not have haste does not mean its sole purpose is not attacking. Geist is clearly in the deck for the very early brutal damage edge it gives. Further, a 3/2 flyer for 1 mana is aggro. Either that or Goblin Guide was totally tempo. So, a deck full of aggro creatures, that uses aggro strategy (early heavy pressure), is absolutely, in no way, aggro? Or is it specifically the evasion that makes it tempo?
Further, I find it questionable that the bounce can even be considered tempo any more than Doom Blade can. Because Delver does so much damage so quickly, the bounce simply acts like virtual removal. Honestly, in the times that I have played Delver, I have only once had to go on to counter a creature that I bounced because the games are usually over by turn 4-5, or over enough that I don't bother. The Mana Leaks usually just end up stopping board wipe or spot removal, so they are really there just to protect the aggro beaters that are winning me the game. BTW, I have yet to actually lose a round at FNM with Delver, and I have been playing it aggro the whole time I have had it sleeved. So, I will concede to it having tempo advantage, if and only if you concede that it is indeed quite aggro.
Further, I am not sure exactly how Rites of Refusal hurts tempo. It has exactly the same mana access as Mana Leak, so does not affect tempo any differently than Mana Leak. The extra cost of discarding cards affects CA, and I suppose through that it affects tempo, but again, we have en environment full of flashback cards, and Delver uses Snapcaster, which gives flashback to any instant or sorcery.
Let's try a little experiment. Sleeve up a Delver deck, and instead of Mana Leaks, sub in Rites of Refusal. See just exactly how much it ruins the deck. I have actually tried it, since this is actually what I expect Wizards to do. It really doesn't slow down Delver much, if at all in most situations.
Rites of Refusal is LESS powerful than Mana Leak, but still operates nearly the same, even more so in the current Standard, and by the time the flashback cards rotate, they will have a new core set to put a new core counter in. I am trying to look at this from their perspective, instead of what I want. Rune Snag would be awesome. NOT GOING TO HAPPEN. Rune Snag is strictly better than Mana Leak. Period. They don't like Mana Leak because they say it is too much for Standard, so why would they let a strictly better card in. That is living Magical Christmas Set Development land, and WotC is not Santa.
^ Rites of Refusal is awful. A two mana counter spell should never require you to discard a card as a conditional cost. Rune Snag is not better than Mana Leak. They are about equal and a lot of the time it comes down to preference. Control uses Rune Snag, tempo uses mana leak as Control wants a late game counter. In the current standard Rune Snag would be more balanced than Mana Leak because of the interaction between it and Snapcaster Mage.
Furthermore I don't know if you really have an idea what tempo is. It's a little iffy to explain but I'll do it the best I can;
Delver's strategy is to advance it's position while setting you back. There is no good spot removal in white so it ops to use Vapor Snag's and Leak's to what is know as `Timewalking` you by basically getting an extra turn over you by canceling whatever you did on your prior turn. These types of decks are not like Aggro decks because they do not still have a late game, and they are no control decks because they typically run out of resources very quickly. Tempo's strategy described in one sentence ; `` I take one step forward and push you two steps backwards.``
Mhjames: mtgsalvation: I DON'T SEE HOW THIS CARD IS GOOD. I KNOW PATRICK CHAPIN USED IT AND WENT 8-0, BUT THAT WAS A SMALL TOURNAMENT. THE CARD IS TOO SLOW. YOU NEED TO MAKE SURE THE OPPONENT HAS A SPELL IN THE GRAVEYARD
Please do tell me something that became better in blue compared to other cards. One can debate about creatures, but they are either multicolored ( Psychatog, Geist of Saint Traft), or very unbalanced (like Delver of Secrets).
Planeswalkers for one. The additions of Fettergeist, Lone Revenant, and Temporal Mastery are also pretty strong. There's also Consecrated Sphinx, Frost Titan, Deceiver Exarch, Gitaxian Probe, Mental Misstep, Phantasmal Image, and Vapor Snag. I'd include Snapcaster Mage, but do you think that's "very unbalanced"? But those first three should be extremely playable in some kind of blue deck, and the other seven were present in several decks.
That's just the stuff that rings a bell in Standard from the last year. I could discuss the Faeries from Lorwyn-block. Or would you consider those "very unbalanced"?
Edit: I forgot Devastation Tide as well. Reprinting Upheaval at a cheaper cost with a reduced effect, and with an even cheaper conditional cost, seems like a very interesting inclusion going forward.
The problem is that there is no decent Instant speed draw engine. Not even a super weak Inspiration. I would never argue that instant speed card draw should cost more, or at least with added disadvantages, since it clearly should. But for god's sake, at least make them available.
This supposes there is a need for some kind of "instant speed draw engine". Is such a thing actually necessary in Standard these days?
The presence of blue in decks base upon cheap / powerful creatures, and almost no control elements around. The debate is about the loss of blue tools that make an archetype live and prosper. Blue happens to be the color mentioned here. If Wizards get to print a 5, 6 mana Wrath of God, with no difference, just because "it's too powerful vs creatures" i will complain as well.
I don't deny that is what the current environment looks like. But Esper Control has a presence in Standard, even if it isn't the dominant deck. Same with Solar Flare. Caw-Blade still does reasonably well in Modern.
Either way, this wasn't the case with Standard a year ago, and it probably won't be the case with Standard a year from now. Looking at today as a snapshot of "loss of blue tools" is overlooking where blue has been, and where blue probably will be in the future.
Creatures have been getting better each set. Aggro decks have powerful anti-control aspects in them (Uncounterable, Hexproof, etç), and getting cheaper. It's clear the road they are taking, and one must remember that losing one archetype (in standard's case, two) is not exactly healthy. And we all had our fair share of unhealthy environments.
Wax/wane can't be freely used as an excuse or explanation for the changes made so far.
While creatures have been getting better with each set, that's a good thing. Creatures were bad for a very long time, and in order to make Limited and Standard good, creatures had to get better. Are some creatures too good? Probably, but I can't see that trend continuing forever without end. There's already been some "mistakes" along these lines, and I would think that even WotC recognizes when to back-off somewhat.
Have spells been decreased in power? Sure, but that moved the game to more creature combat, which needed to be just as viable in the game. Have spells decreased too far in power? Possibly, but I think there's plenty of good spells that have been added to the game, just in different ways and shapes.
You can argue that wax and wane hasn't gone in your favor, and I would acknowledge that. Wax and wane doesn't necessarily benefit every party equally. But it is there nonetheless.
So, by telling us that a two mana situational counter is nowadays too powerful, when we see the pattern of even more cuts in that color in terms of power... It means we're getting (more?) powerful tools?
Saying "Mana Leak is simply a much more powerful card than we would be comfortable printing under modern development rules." is a few things...
(1) A measurement of its effect versus its cost.
(2) A recognition of the format and how Mana Leak would fit in that format.
(3) An acknowledgment that it is a matter of "comfort" to print or not print the card.
...and it does signal a change in the development of counters. Yes, this also probably means that some of your favorite kinds of counters might not see print for a while. But it doesn't mean never see print again. No different than Lightning Bolt. And, like anything else, removal of one card from the rotation for a while easily opens up development of replacement cards. But, they've shown they can print cards they aren't comfortable with from time to time.
Edit: Specifically, if Mana Leak hadn't been an established card from Stronghold and reprinted in prior sets (so it was completely brand new), it would be unlikely they'd develop such a card these days. I imagine that's the case with several cards, had they never been printed at some point already.
Of course not. I will be expecting what Wizards have been giving me as a control player every new set: worse and worse cards, until either i am forced to play aggro to remain competitive in a meta, or quit playing. Nothing more, nothing less.
Then if you believe that is genuinely the case, I would suggest taking time off from the current Standard environment until you are happy with the cards in the format. If you are strictly concerned about remaining competitive or winning with a particular deck, then perhaps that is best.
I think that would be the wrong attitude to take, because I think Avacyn Restored has brought a lot of tools with it to make blue-based control pretty good. I won't predict that blue-based control will be the dominant deck once everyone has had a chance to assess the new cards and build decks accordingly, but I think it will start doing a lot better over the next few months.
You can't expect me to be happy while aggro strategies getso many tools and solutions, and some to problems that don't even exist, that the style of play i prefer is getting so torn apart that almost no deck is viable in the two main Constructed formats.
I don't care about your happiness one bit. It's entirely irrelevant to any discussion of Mana Leak as a card, and where it sits on the general "curve" of cost versus effect and measuring its use and efficiency.
Name me, please, viable control (not tempo) decks in Standard. Or even in Modern. Faeries and Tron? Combo and / or Tempo oriented decks aren't exactly control strategies.
It is still a bit too early to tell, since Avacyn Restored was just introduced to the format. And I think that's the biggest reason why you can't show anything is "wrong" with the format. Because the introduction of that many cards will surely have an impact.
Standard is a stagnant environment. "Healthy" means we have viable decks in all play styles. I only see aggro.
If you believe that Standard is a stagnant environment, then you are willfully ignoring how much the environment has changed not only since last year, but also in the last six months. Let alone how it will change in the next six months, between what Avacyn Restored has probably brought to the format, or what M2013 could bring to the format.
Mana Leak is not a Sacred Cow, but the need it fills is critical to a healthy metagame.
That's my point. A viable counterspell at CMC 2 is good for the format. Mana Leak doesn't have to be that card. Continued insistence that Mana Leak must be that card is what makes it a "sacred cow."
Gutshot is a bad card? Ok. You are SO right. Last I checked, direct damage that one can run for free in any color deck one wants is SO bad. No one should ever use this card. Absolutely.
Gut shot itself is a bad card. One damage for 2 life isn't a good trade. However, based on a metagame, it can become a good card. On pure power level, it is not good though.
Edit: Two mana soft counter. I'm basing this off of the fact that soft counters are situational as is and don't need to make you discard a card to counter a spell.
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Mhjames: mtgsalvation: I DON'T SEE HOW THIS CARD IS GOOD. I KNOW PATRICK CHAPIN USED IT AND WENT 8-0, BUT THAT WAS A SMALL TOURNAMENT. THE CARD IS TOO SLOW. YOU NEED TO MAKE SURE THE OPPONENT HAS A SPELL IN THE GRAVEYARD
Edit: Two mana soft counter. I'm basing this off of the fact that soft counters are situational as is and don't need to make you discard a card to counter a spell.
Not..sure if sarcastic.. but you're welcome if not.
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Mhjames: mtgsalvation: I DON'T SEE HOW THIS CARD IS GOOD. I KNOW PATRICK CHAPIN USED IT AND WENT 8-0, BUT THAT WAS A SMALL TOURNAMENT. THE CARD IS TOO SLOW. YOU NEED TO MAKE SURE THE OPPONENT HAS A SPELL IN THE GRAVEYARD
The additions of Fettergeist, Lone Revenant, and Temporal Mastery are also pretty strong.
I don't see Fettergeist or Lone Revenant doing anything. They're not Delver; they play a creature beatdown game that blue can't possibly win. I don't see those two as high-impact cards.
Temporal Mastery has a ton of potential, and also the ability to completely fall flat (especially in Standard)... but obviously I can't make a decision on this until someone better than me at Magic has had enough time with it.
For the record, I don't mean to argue with your overall point, I mostly agree. But I do still fear for the immediate future...
Edit: I forgot Devastation Tide as well. Reprinting Upheaval at a cheaper cost with a reduced effect, and with an even cheaper conditional cost, seems like a very interesting inclusion going forward.
Devastation Tide doesn't hit lands, and that's a major downside. You could Upheaval, play Zombie Infestation or Psychatog, and your opponent has no lands to answer with. Devastation Tide is more of a board-sweeper than a finisher, and on that end, it probably loses to the likes of Terminus. It doesn't really allow for new gameplans, or new strategies, and it mostly doesn't add anything to existing strategies (except as yet another board sweeper -- although admittedly, the only one in blue...).
That's my point. A viable counterspell at CMC 2 is good for the format. Mana Leak doesn't have to be that card. Continued insistence that Mana Leak must be that card is what makes it a "sacred cow."
I think that what scares me most is that the arguments made against Mana Leak will apply to any CMC 2 counter, and that if Mana Leak is not brought back, the void simply won't be filled. Instead, we get to pray that we draw the right one out of Essence Scatter and Negate when the other guy plays an answer-me-now threat.
Personally, I like the anti-synergy between Snapcaster and Rune Snag. But I don't see that being a selling point to Wizards.
It wasn't. I didn't (and possibly still do not) know what a soft counter was.
A soft counter is any counter where the opponent can make a choice and possibly have his spell not countered (Mana Leak is the prototypical one: your opponent can pay 3 and have his spell resolve -- granted, he won't always have 3 available, but the choice exists). A hard counter is one where the effect itself does not allow your opponent a choice.
I don't see Fettergeist or Lone Revenant doing anything. They're not Delver; they play a creature beatdown game that blue can't possibly win. I don't see those two as high-impact cards.
I don't see how either card is meant for beatdown. Certainly not Lone Revenant, which you absolutely want as a singleton in order to get the Impulse-ability every turn. And while Fettergeist is 3/4, it's better as a single creature that you throw a Sword on and then work to protect it and use as a potential win condition.
That looks more like control to me than anything else.
Devastation Tide doesn't hit lands, and that's a major downside. You could Upheaval, play Zombie Infestation or Psychatog, and your opponent has no lands to answer with. Devastation Tide is more of a board-sweeper than a finisher, and on that end, it probably loses to the likes of Terminus. It doesn't really allow for new gameplans, or new strategies, and it mostly doesn't add anything to existing strategies (except as yet another board sweeper -- although admittedly, the only one in blue...).
Perhaps. But, I think that looks back more at older formats than Standard these days. I acknowledge it is not as good as Upheaval was, nor does it go in the same decks that Upheaval went in, but that doesn't make it any less a big reset button for blue.
I think that what scares me most is that the arguments made against Mana Leak will apply to any CMC 2 counter, and that if Mana Leak is not brought back, the void simply won't be filled. Instead, we get to pray that we draw the right one out of Essence Scatter and Negate when the other guy plays an answer-me-now threat.
I don't see that happening. As I discussed earlier, I think you can broadly categorize the cards blue needs to deal with as either...
(1) Creature or noncreature.
(2) Permanent or nonpermanent.
...and making sure that there are counters suited for dealing with both also feeds into the need to keep there from being a "universal" counter at too cheap a cost. That's also true with soft counters, where the cost might be too efficient for the effect.
If Mana Leak is "above the curve" these days, then I think Miscalculation w/o cycling would fit right in this spot. There's something close to a dozen variations of Shock (1 mana for 2 damage) in Modern. Take Mana Leak out of the Core set for a couple of years, and I think you can find two to three viable substitutions at either 1 or 2 CMC.
Since Wildfire was largely ignored by most people in the thread, I'm going to bring up his suggesting of a 2 CMC counter again, because the design is so clean and effective:
Deny1U
Instant (C)
Counter target spell with converted mana cost 3 or less.
Remember Thoughtbind? Well this is basically Thoughtbind that has had its numbers dropped down by one. I've always considered Thoughtbind to be great design, but it only saw very fringe Constructed play because being at three mana you could just play Hinder or Mana Leak for one less.
By restricting the card to only counter cheap spells, you eliminate the ability to sit on two mana and cause a major tempo blowout by countering a big spell. In exchange, you get a counter that can stop what it's supposed to stop no matter how early or late in the game it is. As good as Mana Leak is, it still has the problem that all soft counters do: people have mana to spend in the late game to pay for the Leak. This card doesn't have that problem. It also is extremely simple and elegant, making it an ideal card to print in a Core set.
The only problem i would see from such a card would be that it can't stop a titan, but if they don't return, it is kind of a nice one.
That's sort of the point behind the card's design. If you want to counter absolutely everything, then be prepared to pay three mana for it and get a nice little bonus to boot.
Rune Snag is worse than Mana Leak for the first one, and then better for every following Rune Snag, provided you don't Snapcast any of the ones in your graveyard. So in that respect, Rune Snag is the same or worse I guess.
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Delver's strategy is to advance it's position while setting you back. There is no good spot removal in white so it ops to use Vapor Snag's and Leak's to what is know as `Timewalking` you by basically getting an extra turn over you by canceling whatever you did on your prior turn. These types of decks are not like Aggro decks because they do not still have a late game, and they are no control decks because they typically run out of resources very quickly. Tempo's strategy described in one sentence ; I take one step forward and push you two steps backwards.
Tempo is simply the speed at which things get done, the rhythm of the game as it were. There is an entire article about what tempo is. Setting your opponent back in their time line of things to do on certain turns is then disrupting their tempo. This can be done with bounce, countering, removal, land destruction, discard, or anything else that prevents them from the normal progression of the way their deck is "supposed" to play out its turns. Thus Tempo decks can achieve what they do in many ways. Delver is aggro-tempo, because it (a) utilizes aggressive creatures and combat style and (b) disrupts the opponents tempo. Even RDW can play tempo, say by using burn at the end of an opponents turn after they drop a creature to essentially make the action they took that turn null, though most of the time you want to save most of your burn for after your creatures become ineffective and you need to reach past and end the game. There is an assumption that if a deck is classified as aggro, then the best way to play it is to tap everything out every turn, but I have found that you win more games with aggro decks if you utilize some tempo disruption in favor of going all in all the time.
Quote from Infallible »
^ Rites of Refusal is awful. A two mana counter spell should never require you to discard a card as a conditional cost. Rune Snag is not better than Mana Leak. They are about equal and a lot of the time it comes down to preference. Control uses Rune Snag, tempo uses mana leak as Control wants a late game counter. In the current standard Rune Snag would be more balanced than Mana Leak because of the interaction between it and Snapcaster Mage.
So Rites makes you discard, which you can then play the discarded card from your graveyard with either Snapcaster, or by its own flashback cost if it has one. So the discard is balanced by Snapcaster the same way that the advantage of Rune Snag is "balanced" by Snapcaster. How about decks that would then have the ability to abuse Rune Snag? This can't happen with Rites. Ergo, Rites is the better choice from the perspective of the people that make the sets and have to deal with the fallout when things become unbalanced. Soft counters may be situational, true, but having to discard a card right now is not as bad as it seems. There are many decks that discard absolutely doesn't hurt right now, and even some that it helps. I am just not sure why you think Rites is so awful. You are clearly not thinking about how a huge portion of the decent spells in the format have flashback, and how a large number of creatures can be played from the graveyard by some means or another. I think what is going on here is that you think that Rites would be awful for Delver decks. This is likely true. But seriously, a lot of Delver decks will be reducing the amount of their counter spells anyways because of Cavern. Really, what I see here is that Rites really is FAIR, and people that play Delver are panicking that I might be right.
Further, Rites is comparable to Force of Will, with standard the way it is right now. No, you cannot cast Rites for free, but you are also not exiling a card to cast it. Would Rites be better if it only cost U instead of 1U? That could be a possibility, but then Delver would find a way to abuse it because it would essentially be almost as good as Force Spike, and in some situations could be much, much better. I think it is ridiculous for people that play blue in Standard to sit there demanding good counters plus good card advantage, in addition to having two of the best creatures ever made, and pretty decent spot removal (even if Vapor Snag is temporary, it still functions as spot removal in the deck it is used in most). What more should blue get right now? A lot of people act like the loss of Mana Leak without the gain of something essentially identical to it (Rune Snag, in the way it has been said it will work) will ruin blue forever. Maybe WotC, the DCI, and non-blue players are tired of seeing 4 of every top 8 be some kind of blue deck that shouldn't be as strong as it is. I love playing blue. I always have. However, I can see that blue has it REALLY good right now, and could use a little knock down. The question is, why is it so hard for others to see this?
Further, Rites is comparable to Force of Will, with standard the way it is right now. No, you cannot cast Rites for free, but you are also not exiling a card to cast it. Would Rites be better if it only cost U instead of 1U? That could be a possibility, but then Delver would find a way to abuse it because it would essentially be almost as good as Force Spike, and in some situations could be much, much better. I think it is ridiculous for people that play blue in Standard to sit there demanding good counters plus good card advantage, in addition to having two of the best creatures ever made, and pretty decent spot removal (even if Vapor Snag is temporary, it still functions as spot removal in the deck it is used in most). What more should blue get right now? A lot of people act like the loss of Mana Leak without the gain of something essentially identical to it (Rune Snag, in the way it has been said it will work) will ruin blue forever. Maybe WotC, the DCI, and non-blue players are tired of seeing 4 of every top 8 be some kind of blue deck that shouldn't be as strong as it is. I love playing blue. I always have. However, I can see that blue has it REALLY good right now, and could use a little knock down. The question is, why is it so hard for others to see this?
Ban the creatures, they never belonged in our color to begin with. Blue has a clear Identity but RnD keep seemingly want to THRUST blue in a ID Crisis similar to what white had back in the Days of OTJ OLS (except instead of a conflicting ID its a synergistic bizarre one). We would be happy with counterspell that's not Rune snag. Also bounce is not removal. Most of the things we want to remove can't be targeted by the bounce anyway. (hexproof)
I've seen Rune Snag come up a couple times. How would this card not be better then Mana Leak with Snapcaster Mage? My line of thinking is Rune Snag would encourage more early game counters of less optimal targets. Granted you need to draw 6+ cards but having 2 counters each at 6 and 8 additional mana seems a bit powerful. What am I missing that wouldn't make Rune Snag with Snapcaster Mage better then Mana Leak?
Ban the creatures, they never belonged in our color to begin with. Blue has a clear Identity but RnD keep seemingly want to THRUST blue in a ID Crisis similar to what white had back in the Days of OTJ OLS (except instead of a conflicting ID its a synergistic bizarre one). We would be happy with counterspell that's not Rune snag. Also bounce is not removal. Most of the things we want to remove can't be targeted by the bounce anyway. (hexproof)
A synergistic identity crisis? So, WotC prints creatures that work well with blue strategies, and you complain? Ok.... So a creature is only allowed to be blue if it doesn't work well with blue strategies because blue is never ever supposed to play a lot of creatures? I guess merfolk, a part of blue since the very beginning, don't count in this right? Neither do faeries, right? So, let's see. Delver and Snapcaster are both humans, so are bad. Maybe they should have been Merfolk or Faeries, and then it would be totally cool? Not sure what you were trying to prove here.
I know bounce ISN'T removal, but it functions as removal in Delver, which uses it to remove obstacles and undo an opponents turn. If something like Path to Exile were reprinted, it would almost certainly replace Vapor Snag in Delver builds. Vapor Snag serves a certain function for a certain mana cost, and that function is temporarily removing a creature to inconveniencing an opponent. It most certainly does act like temporary spot removal in Delver.
Since Wildfire was largely ignored by most people in the thread, I'm going to bring up his suggesting of a 2 CMC counter again, because the design is so clean and effective:
Deny1U
Instant (C)
Counter target spell with converted mana cost 3 or less.
Remember Thoughtbind? Well this is basically Thoughtbind that has had its numbers dropped down by one. I've always considered Thoughtbind to be great design, but it only saw very fringe Constructed play because being at three mana you could just play Hinder or Mana Leak for one less.
By restricting the card to only counter cheap spells, you eliminate the ability to sit on two mana and cause a major tempo blowout by countering a big spell. In exchange, you get a counter that can stop what it's supposed to stop no matter how early or late in the game it is. As good as Mana Leak is, it still has the problem that all soft counters do: people have mana to spend in the late game to pay for the Leak. This card doesn't have that problem. It also is extremely simple and elegant, making it an ideal card to print in a Core set.
This card would eat all older formats. That would be absolutely insane in legacy.
On another note, what happened to the days of counterspell being...idk...printed in a core set? I have no idea how sets rotate but I believe a main issue stems from Snapcaster recycling anything somewhat decent. Counters are a foundation of magic. To read WotC saying "mana leak is too good" fuels the conspiracy that all this game is becoming is aggro.dec (creatures and planeswalkers). Very disappointing if they are cutting down on countermagic.
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I mean, hell, we're all on a forum for something that most people would describe as a "children's card game"...do what makes you happy. You are never too old to enjoy yourself.
I've seen Rune Snag come up a couple times. How would this card not be better then Mana Leak with Snapcaster Mage? My line of thinking is Rune Snag would encourage more early game counters of less optimal targets. Granted you need to draw 6+ cards but having 2 counters each at 6 and 8 additional mana seems a bit powerful. What am I missing that wouldn't make Rune Snag with Snapcaster Mage better then Mana Leak?
Snapcaster + Rune Snag is not positive synergy, it is negative. Every time you Snap a Rune, you make later Runes worse.
Ban the creatures, they never belonged in our color to begin with. Blue has a clear Identity but RnD keep seemingly want to THRUST blue in a ID Crisis similar to what white had back in the Days of OTJ OLS (except instead of a conflicting ID its a synergistic bizarre one). We would be happy with counterspell that's not Rune snag. Also bounce is not removal. Most of the things we want to remove can't be targeted by the bounce anyway. (hexproof)
What about the creatures that have been recently printed are outside of blues color pie? Blue has always had cheap flyers. They've always had cheap unblockable guys. They've always had hexproof/shroud guys.
The only difference now is the power level they pushed them to. It's not that they are outside the color pie, it is that they were just overly powerful.
Snapcaster + Rune Snag is not positive synergy, it is negative. Every time you Snap a Rune, you make later Runes worse.
I understand the more Snapcaster Mageed Rune Snag grows weaker, but you're looking at 6-8-8-6 extra mana needed as your 3rd-4th-5th-6th casting of Rune Snag. Outside of some very good ramp, playing around that type of additional mana should be back breaking. The first and last casting could be worse then Mana Leak, but the 2nd-7th casts is better. Rune Snag is way more powerful then Mana Leak when using Snapcaster Mage
I'm honestly expecting a counterspell remake in standard.
I'd be willing to bet that cavern was a lead up to this in order to make sure it didn't get too powerful, but most of the control decks want to run lingering souls, so UU would be a very restrictive cost for them.
I'm honestly expecting a counterspell remake in standard.
I'd be willing to bet that cavern was a lead up to this in order to make sure it didn't get too powerful, but most of the control decks want to run lingering souls, so UU would be a very restrictive cost for them.
Ravnica is coming next so I really doubt UU would do anything to the splashability of UU.
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By: ol MISAKA lo
Cockatrice: Infallible
Mhjames: mtgsalvation: I DON'T SEE HOW THIS CARD IS GOOD. I KNOW PATRICK CHAPIN USED IT AND WENT 8-0, BUT THAT WAS A SMALL TOURNAMENT. THE CARD IS TOO SLOW. YOU NEED TO MAKE SURE THE OPPONENT HAS A SPELL IN THE GRAVEYARD
I'm honestly expecting a counterspell remake in standard.
I'd be willing to bet that cavern was a lead up to this in order to make sure it didn't get too powerful, but most of the control decks want to run lingering souls, so UU would be a very restrictive cost for them.
We will not see Counterspell in Standard because it adds it to Modern. Unless they want to do that, which is unlikely, it will never see print again.
CA isn't poor in Standard. It isn't amazing, like it was with cards like Remand, but it isn't poor. And if you look at Rites of Refusal, it only hurts CA by about 30% (flashback cards), less if you are using it with Snapcaster in the same deck. It actually brings balance to an otherwise unbalanced situation.
I will give you that Delver is a tempo deck, by definition. However, from my experience, it is the bounce that keeps Delver ahead in tempo far more than the counters. For instance, I have seen several top 8 Delver decks that only ran one or two Mana Leaks, whereas if Leak were so important to it maintaining its tempo edge, you would expect to ALWAYS see 3 or 4.
However, Delver is not solely tempo. One major argument about Delver not being aggro is Geist of Saint Traft, arguably one of the more important cards in the deck. That card is extremely aggro. Just because it does not have haste does not mean its sole purpose is not attacking. Geist is clearly in the deck for the very early brutal damage edge it gives. Further, a 3/2 flyer for 1 mana is aggro. Either that or Goblin Guide was totally tempo. So, a deck full of aggro creatures, that uses aggro strategy (early heavy pressure), is absolutely, in no way, aggro? Or is it specifically the evasion that makes it tempo?
Further, I find it questionable that the bounce can even be considered tempo any more than Doom Blade can. Because Delver does so much damage so quickly, the bounce simply acts like virtual removal. Honestly, in the times that I have played Delver, I have only once had to go on to counter a creature that I bounced because the games are usually over by turn 4-5, or over enough that I don't bother. The Mana Leaks usually just end up stopping board wipe or spot removal, so they are really there just to protect the aggro beaters that are winning me the game. BTW, I have yet to actually lose a round at FNM with Delver, and I have been playing it aggro the whole time I have had it sleeved. So, I will concede to it having tempo advantage, if and only if you concede that it is indeed quite aggro.
Further, I am not sure exactly how Rites of Refusal hurts tempo. It has exactly the same mana access as Mana Leak, so does not affect tempo any differently than Mana Leak. The extra cost of discarding cards affects CA, and I suppose through that it affects tempo, but again, we have en environment full of flashback cards, and Delver uses Snapcaster, which gives flashback to any instant or sorcery.
Let's try a little experiment. Sleeve up a Delver deck, and instead of Mana Leaks, sub in Rites of Refusal. See just exactly how much it ruins the deck. I have actually tried it, since this is actually what I expect Wizards to do. It really doesn't slow down Delver much, if at all in most situations.
Rites of Refusal is LESS powerful than Mana Leak, but still operates nearly the same, even more so in the current Standard, and by the time the flashback cards rotate, they will have a new core set to put a new core counter in. I am trying to look at this from their perspective, instead of what I want. Rune Snag would be awesome. NOT GOING TO HAPPEN. Rune Snag is strictly better than Mana Leak. Period. They don't like Mana Leak because they say it is too much for Standard, so why would they let a strictly better card in. That is living Magical Christmas Set Development land, and WotC is not Santa.
Furthermore I don't know if you really have an idea what tempo is. It's a little iffy to explain but I'll do it the best I can;
Delver's strategy is to advance it's position while setting you back. There is no good spot removal in white so it ops to use Vapor Snag's and Leak's to what is know as `Timewalking` you by basically getting an extra turn over you by canceling whatever you did on your prior turn. These types of decks are not like Aggro decks because they do not still have a late game, and they are no control decks because they typically run out of resources very quickly. Tempo's strategy described in one sentence ; `` I take one step forward and push you two steps backwards.``
By: ol MISAKA lo
Cockatrice: Infallible
Planeswalkers for one. The additions of Fettergeist, Lone Revenant, and Temporal Mastery are also pretty strong. There's also Consecrated Sphinx, Frost Titan, Deceiver Exarch, Gitaxian Probe, Mental Misstep, Phantasmal Image, and Vapor Snag. I'd include Snapcaster Mage, but do you think that's "very unbalanced"? But those first three should be extremely playable in some kind of blue deck, and the other seven were present in several decks.
That's just the stuff that rings a bell in Standard from the last year. I could discuss the Faeries from Lorwyn-block. Or would you consider those "very unbalanced"?
Edit: I forgot Devastation Tide as well. Reprinting Upheaval at a cheaper cost with a reduced effect, and with an even cheaper conditional cost, seems like a very interesting inclusion going forward.
This supposes there is a need for some kind of "instant speed draw engine". Is such a thing actually necessary in Standard these days?
I don't deny that is what the current environment looks like. But Esper Control has a presence in Standard, even if it isn't the dominant deck. Same with Solar Flare. Caw-Blade still does reasonably well in Modern.
Either way, this wasn't the case with Standard a year ago, and it probably won't be the case with Standard a year from now. Looking at today as a snapshot of "loss of blue tools" is overlooking where blue has been, and where blue probably will be in the future.
While creatures have been getting better with each set, that's a good thing. Creatures were bad for a very long time, and in order to make Limited and Standard good, creatures had to get better. Are some creatures too good? Probably, but I can't see that trend continuing forever without end. There's already been some "mistakes" along these lines, and I would think that even WotC recognizes when to back-off somewhat.
Have spells been decreased in power? Sure, but that moved the game to more creature combat, which needed to be just as viable in the game. Have spells decreased too far in power? Possibly, but I think there's plenty of good spells that have been added to the game, just in different ways and shapes.
You can argue that wax and wane hasn't gone in your favor, and I would acknowledge that. Wax and wane doesn't necessarily benefit every party equally. But it is there nonetheless.
Saying "Mana Leak is simply a much more powerful card than we would be comfortable printing under modern development rules." is a few things...
(1) A measurement of its effect versus its cost.
(2) A recognition of the format and how Mana Leak would fit in that format.
(3) An acknowledgment that it is a matter of "comfort" to print or not print the card.
...and it does signal a change in the development of counters. Yes, this also probably means that some of your favorite kinds of counters might not see print for a while. But it doesn't mean never see print again. No different than Lightning Bolt. And, like anything else, removal of one card from the rotation for a while easily opens up development of replacement cards. But, they've shown they can print cards they aren't comfortable with from time to time.
Edit: Specifically, if Mana Leak hadn't been an established card from Stronghold and reprinted in prior sets (so it was completely brand new), it would be unlikely they'd develop such a card these days. I imagine that's the case with several cards, had they never been printed at some point already.
Then if you believe that is genuinely the case, I would suggest taking time off from the current Standard environment until you are happy with the cards in the format. If you are strictly concerned about remaining competitive or winning with a particular deck, then perhaps that is best.
I think that would be the wrong attitude to take, because I think Avacyn Restored has brought a lot of tools with it to make blue-based control pretty good. I won't predict that blue-based control will be the dominant deck once everyone has had a chance to assess the new cards and build decks accordingly, but I think it will start doing a lot better over the next few months.
I don't care about your happiness one bit. It's entirely irrelevant to any discussion of Mana Leak as a card, and where it sits on the general "curve" of cost versus effect and measuring its use and efficiency.
It is still a bit too early to tell, since Avacyn Restored was just introduced to the format. And I think that's the biggest reason why you can't show anything is "wrong" with the format. Because the introduction of that many cards will surely have an impact.
If you believe that Standard is a stagnant environment, then you are willfully ignoring how much the environment has changed not only since last year, but also in the last six months. Let alone how it will change in the next six months, between what Avacyn Restored has probably brought to the format, or what M2013 could bring to the format.
That's my point. A viable counterspell at CMC 2 is good for the format. Mana Leak doesn't have to be that card. Continued insistence that Mana Leak must be that card is what makes it a "sacred cow."
Gut shot itself is a bad card. One damage for 2 life isn't a good trade. However, based on a metagame, it can become a good card. On pure power level, it is not good though.
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What are you basing this on?
Edit: Two mana soft counter. I'm basing this off of the fact that soft counters are situational as is and don't need to make you discard a card to counter a spell.
By: ol MISAKA lo
Cockatrice: Infallible
Ah, I see. Thank you for teaching me something.
Not..sure if sarcastic.. but you're welcome if not.
By: ol MISAKA lo
Cockatrice: Infallible
It wasn't. I didn't (and possibly still do not) know what a soft counter was.
I don't see Fettergeist or Lone Revenant doing anything. They're not Delver; they play a creature beatdown game that blue can't possibly win. I don't see those two as high-impact cards.
Temporal Mastery has a ton of potential, and also the ability to completely fall flat (especially in Standard)... but obviously I can't make a decision on this until someone better than me at Magic has had enough time with it.
For the record, I don't mean to argue with your overall point, I mostly agree. But I do still fear for the immediate future...
Devastation Tide doesn't hit lands, and that's a major downside. You could Upheaval, play Zombie Infestation or Psychatog, and your opponent has no lands to answer with. Devastation Tide is more of a board-sweeper than a finisher, and on that end, it probably loses to the likes of Terminus. It doesn't really allow for new gameplans, or new strategies, and it mostly doesn't add anything to existing strategies (except as yet another board sweeper -- although admittedly, the only one in blue...).
I think that what scares me most is that the arguments made against Mana Leak will apply to any CMC 2 counter, and that if Mana Leak is not brought back, the void simply won't be filled. Instead, we get to pray that we draw the right one out of Essence Scatter and Negate when the other guy plays an answer-me-now threat.
Personally, I like the anti-synergy between Snapcaster and Rune Snag. But I don't see that being a selling point to Wizards.
A soft counter is any counter where the opponent can make a choice and possibly have his spell not countered (Mana Leak is the prototypical one: your opponent can pay 3 and have his spell resolve -- granted, he won't always have 3 available, but the choice exists). A hard counter is one where the effect itself does not allow your opponent a choice.
I don't see how either card is meant for beatdown. Certainly not Lone Revenant, which you absolutely want as a singleton in order to get the Impulse-ability every turn. And while Fettergeist is 3/4, it's better as a single creature that you throw a Sword on and then work to protect it and use as a potential win condition.
That looks more like control to me than anything else.
Perhaps. But, I think that looks back more at older formats than Standard these days. I acknowledge it is not as good as Upheaval was, nor does it go in the same decks that Upheaval went in, but that doesn't make it any less a big reset button for blue.
I don't see that happening. As I discussed earlier, I think you can broadly categorize the cards blue needs to deal with as either...
(1) Creature or noncreature.
(2) Permanent or nonpermanent.
...and making sure that there are counters suited for dealing with both also feeds into the need to keep there from being a "universal" counter at too cheap a cost. That's also true with soft counters, where the cost might be too efficient for the effect.
If Mana Leak is "above the curve" these days, then I think Miscalculation w/o cycling would fit right in this spot. There's something close to a dozen variations of Shock (1 mana for 2 damage) in Modern. Take Mana Leak out of the Core set for a couple of years, and I think you can find two to three viable substitutions at either 1 or 2 CMC.
Deny 1U
Instant (C)
Counter target spell with converted mana cost 3 or less.
Remember Thoughtbind? Well this is basically Thoughtbind that has had its numbers dropped down by one. I've always considered Thoughtbind to be great design, but it only saw very fringe Constructed play because being at three mana you could just play Hinder or Mana Leak for one less.
By restricting the card to only counter cheap spells, you eliminate the ability to sit on two mana and cause a major tempo blowout by countering a big spell. In exchange, you get a counter that can stop what it's supposed to stop no matter how early or late in the game it is. As good as Mana Leak is, it still has the problem that all soft counters do: people have mana to spend in the late game to pay for the Leak. This card doesn't have that problem. It also is extremely simple and elegant, making it an ideal card to print in a Core set.
You should have three mana available by the time a titan hits the table if you are playing control.
That's sort of the point behind the card's design. If you want to counter absolutely everything, then be prepared to pay three mana for it and get a nice little bonus to boot.
Tempo is simply the speed at which things get done, the rhythm of the game as it were. There is an entire article about what tempo is. Setting your opponent back in their time line of things to do on certain turns is then disrupting their tempo. This can be done with bounce, countering, removal, land destruction, discard, or anything else that prevents them from the normal progression of the way their deck is "supposed" to play out its turns. Thus Tempo decks can achieve what they do in many ways. Delver is aggro-tempo, because it (a) utilizes aggressive creatures and combat style and (b) disrupts the opponents tempo. Even RDW can play tempo, say by using burn at the end of an opponents turn after they drop a creature to essentially make the action they took that turn null, though most of the time you want to save most of your burn for after your creatures become ineffective and you need to reach past and end the game. There is an assumption that if a deck is classified as aggro, then the best way to play it is to tap everything out every turn, but I have found that you win more games with aggro decks if you utilize some tempo disruption in favor of going all in all the time.
So Rites makes you discard, which you can then play the discarded card from your graveyard with either Snapcaster, or by its own flashback cost if it has one. So the discard is balanced by Snapcaster the same way that the advantage of Rune Snag is "balanced" by Snapcaster. How about decks that would then have the ability to abuse Rune Snag? This can't happen with Rites. Ergo, Rites is the better choice from the perspective of the people that make the sets and have to deal with the fallout when things become unbalanced. Soft counters may be situational, true, but having to discard a card right now is not as bad as it seems. There are many decks that discard absolutely doesn't hurt right now, and even some that it helps. I am just not sure why you think Rites is so awful. You are clearly not thinking about how a huge portion of the decent spells in the format have flashback, and how a large number of creatures can be played from the graveyard by some means or another. I think what is going on here is that you think that Rites would be awful for Delver decks. This is likely true. But seriously, a lot of Delver decks will be reducing the amount of their counter spells anyways because of Cavern. Really, what I see here is that Rites really is FAIR, and people that play Delver are panicking that I might be right.
Ban the creatures, they never belonged in our color to begin with. Blue has a clear Identity but RnD keep seemingly want to THRUST blue in a ID Crisis similar to what white had back in the Days of OTJ OLS (except instead of a conflicting ID its a synergistic bizarre one). We would be happy with counterspell that's not Rune snag. Also bounce is not removal. Most of the things we want to remove can't be targeted by the bounce anyway. (hexproof)
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A synergistic identity crisis? So, WotC prints creatures that work well with blue strategies, and you complain? Ok.... So a creature is only allowed to be blue if it doesn't work well with blue strategies because blue is never ever supposed to play a lot of creatures? I guess merfolk, a part of blue since the very beginning, don't count in this right? Neither do faeries, right? So, let's see. Delver and Snapcaster are both humans, so are bad. Maybe they should have been Merfolk or Faeries, and then it would be totally cool? Not sure what you were trying to prove here.
I know bounce ISN'T removal, but it functions as removal in Delver, which uses it to remove obstacles and undo an opponents turn. If something like Path to Exile were reprinted, it would almost certainly replace Vapor Snag in Delver builds. Vapor Snag serves a certain function for a certain mana cost, and that function is temporarily removing a creature to inconveniencing an opponent. It most certainly does act like temporary spot removal in Delver.
This card would eat all older formats. That would be absolutely insane in legacy.
On another note, what happened to the days of counterspell being...idk...printed in a core set? I have no idea how sets rotate but I believe a main issue stems from Snapcaster recycling anything somewhat decent. Counters are a foundation of magic. To read WotC saying "mana leak is too good" fuels the conspiracy that all this game is becoming is aggro.dec (creatures and planeswalkers). Very disappointing if they are cutting down on countermagic.
10th at SCG: Syracuse (2014), GP:NJ Last-Chance Grinder Winner (2014):: Former Legacy Mod
Snapcaster + Rune Snag is not positive synergy, it is negative. Every time you Snap a Rune, you make later Runes worse.
What about the creatures that have been recently printed are outside of blues color pie? Blue has always had cheap flyers. They've always had cheap unblockable guys. They've always had hexproof/shroud guys.
The only difference now is the power level they pushed them to. It's not that they are outside the color pie, it is that they were just overly powerful.
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I understand the more Snapcaster Mageed Rune Snag grows weaker, but you're looking at 6-8-8-6 extra mana needed as your 3rd-4th-5th-6th casting of Rune Snag. Outside of some very good ramp, playing around that type of additional mana should be back breaking. The first and last casting could be worse then Mana Leak, but the 2nd-7th casts is better. Rune Snag is way more powerful then Mana Leak when using Snapcaster Mage
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I'd be willing to bet that cavern was a lead up to this in order to make sure it didn't get too powerful, but most of the control decks want to run lingering souls, so UU would be a very restrictive cost for them.
Ravnica is coming next so I really doubt UU would do anything to the splashability of UU.
By: ol MISAKA lo
Cockatrice: Infallible
We will not see Counterspell in Standard because it adds it to Modern. Unless they want to do that, which is unlikely, it will never see print again.
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