The creatures they are getting do fit in their color pie. Blue has always had small aggressive flyers for cheap mana. They have frequently had small hexproof guys. They have frequently had small unblockable guys. The problem was they increased the power level of those cards more than they have in the past, and they did so in the span of one set. This is not a color pie issue, but just a development issue, one they admit they made a mistake on and are trying to correct.
It is funny how they often seem to make the same "oops"es with Blue cards.
Lorwyn got broke when they took Blue's normally small, terrible creatures, gave them all Flying, and put traditional Blue spell abilities on them. It's basically the same problem with Delver/Snapcaster.
You would have thought that by now they would have learned that the power/toughness on a creature is often the *least* important part of the card. Yet they still act like it matters.
The problem is that development is usually the reason for these problems in the first place. Like with Delver, which was initially going to be a 2/2 flyer that flipped on a creature until the very end when they decided to change it.
It's rather aggravating because it sounds like they always make these mistakes with blue cards - the same group that made Chandra Ablaze cost 6 mana because they were afraid she would be too powerful somehow allowed JTMS to be only 4 mana.
I have to tend to agree with this. Look at the past several "oops that was too powerful in the current game" mistakes pointed out earlier. Cryptic Command, Jace tMS, and Snapcaster Mage are blue, and are three of the most powerful cards ever made. Stoneforge Mystic being white is in an ally color to blue, and is priced right for control for the card advantage it gives without Battertroll and the Swords of Hateskull. Let's not forget affinity (yeah, nooo blue in affinity, haha). In fact, lets go all the way back to the beginning. The power 9. Every non-artifact card in the power 9 is blue.
Now I am not saying that other colors haven't gotten their fair share. Bloodbraid was (still is) the nuts with many decent 3 cmc or less cards, none of which are counterspells. Primeval titan anyone? Hell I even remember trying to play U/B control back in the day against red decks running Hammer of Bogarden. So, it's not like colors outside of blue never get to be nutty.
However, that being said, I think that they have in fact kept the non-blue nuttiness to the same card pool for a couple of years now. First we had Valakut ramp, which then morphed into wolf run ramp. Red deck wins is always red deck wins, duh. I don't think anyone outside of die hard RDW players would enjoy a super powered, unbeatable red deck again. Nor does anyone want another year of titan dumping.
I think part of the problem is that red, black, and green have yet to see absolutely broken planeswalkers (Elspeth and J tMS). However, red and green have seen their own reign over standard recently with Jund and Naya. I actually remember when Jace tMS first came out and was touted as bad because it didn't allow people to instantly beat all Jund, Naya, and monoblack vampires that they faced. Stoneforge was just a little toy for Naya to Bloodbraid into until Scars was released.
Now, we know that a new core set is coming soon. If anyone has any doubt that something new, interesting, and weird is going on with it, simply look at the first card spoiled. Nicol Bolas. A three color planeswalker?! In a core set?! Ok, so we are obviously in for something different. Not to mention that there is quite a few cards that non-blue, non-control players really liked in the same block as Bolas. Not that I think they would actually reprint Bloodbraid in a core set. Though, I wouldn't be surprised to see the Lorwyn Commands have a reprint, and maybe even a make-over. I could see Cryptic and Profane remaining the same, as well as Primal, but who knows?
Maybe losing Mana Leak will end up being considered a fair trade off for the new cool stuff they have in store for everyone.
Or maybe Mana Leak will stay right where it is because its power level will very soon be quite justified in the new standard. I guess we will just have to wait and see
The problem is that development is usually the reason for these problems in the first place. Like with Delver, which was initially going to be a 2/2 flyer that flipped on a creature until the very end when they decided to change it.
I don't want to steer the thread too far off-topic, but can you please link to where this was said by a member of R&D? I'm just curious to see who mentioned a last-minute change to Delver.
I don't want to steer the thread too far off-topic, but can you please link to where this was said by a member of R&D? I'm just curious to see who mentioned a last-minute change to Delver.
It is funny how they often seem to make the same "oops"es with Blue cards.
Lorwyn got broke when they took Blue's normally small, terrible creatures, gave them all Flying, and put traditional Blue spell abilities on them. It's basically the same problem with Delver/Snapcaster.
You would have thought that by now they would have learned that the power/toughness on a creature is often the *least* important part of the card. Yet they still act like it matters.
Seriously? Are we complaining about Faeries again? You know, I never had a problem with beating down Faeries. All I ever needed were some Firespouts and Gutteral Responses. Maybe the occasional Cloudthresher. Not to mention Volcanic Fallout, which is exceptionally funny in response to a champion Faerie. Faeries are not what anyone would call overpowered or unfair. They are exactly what you would expect. They come in effing annoying swarms, but if you have the right bug killer, you are fine.
Not even sure how Delver and Snapcaster compare to Faeries. Delver is a one mana Snapping Drake at its best. At worst it sits at 1/1 for a turn because of a bad shuffle. Thing is, it still has to wait for your upkeep to flip, and Gutshot is free for all decks. Don't like that first turn Delver, float some Gutshots in your 75. The nice thing is that Gutshot is used by Delver because it deals so well with so many other creatures. Sword of War and Peace is also viable for all decks to utilize for life gain.
Snapcaster is in a completely different class from Faeries. Yes, it has a bunch of different blue card abilities "built into" it. However, Snapcaster can be splashed, and gives any instant or sorcery in your graveyard flashback, not just blue ones. There is land available to splash blue into ANY deck, if you really, really want to. Snapcaster does not necessarily live solely in Delver decks. It just works really good there. I am sure, if someone were to try hard enough, they could take quite a few of the strengths in Delver and port them into a completely new deck.
That being said, did you see Zealous Conscripts? Yeah, not one bit of taking red's normal creatures and giving them haste and traditional red spell abilities. Or perhaps we should revisit Gatekeeper of Malakir? Or maybe Ulvenwald Tracker, though this is more of a new ability. There are many more examples of great non-blue cards the would be small, terrible creatures without the keyword ability and some sort of spell effect.
Like I just said, Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker is going to be in the core set. We have got to be in for something on the weirder side of what we normally get.
Seriously? Are we complaining about Faeries again? You know, I never had a problem with beating down Faeries. All I ever needed were some Firespouts and Gutteral Responses. Maybe the occasional Cloudthresher. Not to mention Volcanic Fallout, which is exceptionally funny in response to a champion Faerie. Faeries are not what anyone would call overpowered or unfair. They are exactly what you would expect. They come in effing annoying swarms, but if you have the right bug killer, you are fine.
Saying that Faeries were overpowered isn't "complaining", it's simply stating fact. Faeries dominated Standard for an extended period of time. If you were able to do well against them by stuffing your deck with cards that kill Faeries that's great, but it doesn't change how they performed on the larger scale historically.
Not even sure how Delver and Snapcaster compare to Faeries. Delver is a one mana Snapping Drake at its best. At worst it sits at 1/1 for a turn because of a bad shuffle. Thing is, it still has to wait for your upkeep to flip, and Gutshot is free for all decks. Don't like that first turn Delver, float some Gutshots in your 75. The nice thing is that Gutshot is used by Delver because it deals so well with so many other creatures. Sword of War and Peace is also viable for all decks to utilize for life gain.
You mean there are actually cards that can kill Delver? Who knew. I'm not sure what you're trying to prove here. Delver is a very powerful card, more powerful than a 1 mana Blue creature has any right to be. Just because cards exist that can kill it doesn't change that.
Snapcaster is in a completely different class from Faeries.
I agree with you that Snapcaster is even better, and on it's own is a more versatile card.
Uh, did that guy just say Faeries weren't overpowered? :| I <333 Faeries. They are/were extremely powerful and were such a design mistake as far as what creatures were supposed to be able to do that it's no wonder we haven't seen a tribe with their power level since and probably won't for a very long time (if ever again). They're so powerful, in fact, that Bitterblossom is banned in modern in fear of Faeries down right alienating any deck that was not built to beat it. The problem with decks like Fae is that they cause a format imbalance simply because if you don't main deck enough hate to beat them you will probably lose; and if you do then you'll have many dead cards for multiple different archetypes.
I played during Lorowyn. Volcanic Fallout was really helpful, but it was RR and was used mostly in a deck that lost to Doran Rock and Dragonstorm, which Faeries also beat.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
By: ol MISAKA lo
Cockatrice: Infallible
Mhjames: mtgsalvation: I DON'T SEE HOW THIS CARD IS GOOD. I KNOW PATRICK CHAPIN USED IT AND WENT 8-0, BUT THAT WAS A SMALL TOURNAMENT. THE CARD IS TOO SLOW. YOU NEED TO MAKE SURE THE OPPONENT HAS A SPELL IN THE GRAVEYARD
Well in that line of thinking, where counters can be like GftT and Doom Blade, couldn't we then have a counter spell like:
1U: Counter target non-blue spell.
this card already exists (Frazzle) as an uncommon and it costs 3U. Would dropping 2 from the casting cost force it to be rare since Frazzle is an uncommon? And it was printed in a heavily multicolored block, so only being able to target nonblue cards was a significant enough drawback that it didn't see play (at least i don't remember it seeing play)
If mana leak is out, which seems probably, they need to give control new toys.
I think that's perfectly fair. There's plenty of room for the development of other kinds of counters at CMCs 1 to 2. Let alone at CMC 3. And I think a removal of Mana Leak from the Core set, since it sets the baseline for other counters in Standard, would enable development of those counters.
Let alone a variety of other ways for blue to manipulate the game. Whether that's via tapping or untapping, card draw, milling, etc. While counters are pretty unique to blue, there are plenty of other effects the color could use.
this card already exists (Frazzle) as an uncommon and it costs 3U. Would dropping 2 from the casting cost force it to be rare since Frazzle is an uncommon?
Changing costs for an effect does happen if they want to change the baseline. Especially something like Counterspell to Cancel. Just like they could drop extra abilities from certain cards, like cycling from Miscalculation. I don't know that they'd go 3U to 1U, but certainly to 2U (or UU) would make for a solid counter and an "upgrade" to Flashfreeze. But rariety is more of a consideration for Limited.
The only thing I will say about "Faeries are the best tribe ever" is "If you say so..." Can Fae even compete without the help of Bitterblossom? Surely the removal of only one card like Bitterblossom wouldn't hurt the "best tribe ever"? Oh wait, lets look at the top 8 deck lists from PT Philly last September:
I guess it is Bitterblossom that is overpowered, not the Faerie tribe. Sorry for not lumping the entire Faerie archetype in with that one card.
Uh, did that guy really claim to have played during Lorwyn and say that RR was hard to play except for one deck (I'm guessing the thought is RDW)? *cough* Vivid lands *cough* Reflecting pool *cough* 5cc *cough*
One could not have played Fallout in Standard with Doran Rock. Nor could one have played Fallout in Standard with Dragonstorm. Besides, had Fallout been Standard when Dragonstorm was Standard, wouldn't Dragonstorm have used Fallout to help it beat Fae? So are we talking about the time period in which Fae became played heavily in Extended, so it could follow the cards it needed to be good from Time Spiral into Extended? So, it seems that again, we have Fae lacking as a tribe without key overpowered cards that it needs to be good. Yes it has a lot of little flying creatures with good spell abilities on them, but can it perform without Bitterblossom, Runesnag, Cryptic Command, and other overpowered cards that facilitate the tribes greatness?
I guess my point is that if a given format is absolutely swamped by one particular deck, then wouldn't it be prudent to hate on that deck? Clearly one cannot build a good deck entirely out of targeted hate cards, but one can use targeted hate cards in a good deck to gain an advantage over a field that is primarily composed of a large number of very similar decks.
Of course, we have no one but ourselves here to blame for why this sort of thing happens in Standard now. We who post deck lists, or post on the pros and cons of cards, or any other information that can help someone who sees a deck list in the top 8 of tournament listings build it and pilot it better are entirely guilty of causing format floods of particular deck archetypes.
I am not saying that good players cannot see on their own which cards are good, or cannot put together a deck of good cards that works well. What I am saying is that people in general want to win, so if they see a deck that has won quite a bit, they want to try it because they think it will win for them. This applies to both good players and bad players. Does this mean we should stop discussing deck tech and card tech online? Hell no. Let them copy. Let the haters hate. A good player will be able to play around hate. So, if you guys have piloted Faeries and have never had a problem with hate cards, and don't feel that the deck leans heavily on Bitterblossom and good counter spells to be competitive, then more power to you.
On Gutshot: How is incorporating Gutshot, an easily acquired card, into a wide variety of decks "stuffing" them with targeted hate? Last I checked, an early Gutshot can put you ahead against a lot. For instance it hits: Champion, Delver, Birds, Elves, Lavamancer, Spikeshot Elder, Fight Bear, Skirge, Memnite, tokens in response to an equip, etc. So, is this really targeted against Delver?
Is it fair that Delver turns into a 3/2 flyer and it only costs U to bring out? Not really, but I also think that it is bad for it to be 3/2 instead of 2/2. Was it fair that Goblin Guide only cost R for a 2/2 with haste? Not really. That is why they put in the drawback of letting the defending player search for a land. This is the same reason Delver has the drawback of having to spend an entire opponents turn as a 1/1. Do I think that werewolves should have been designed better to be more consistent? Absolutely. Reckless Waif is very tempting, but every time I try to play it I get pissed because it doesn't transform as reliably as Delver does. The fact of the matter is that red should have had a creature for R with haste at around 3/2 to make it fair. But that isn't what happened. Instead red gets Noble, Waif, and Vexing Devil, none of which have haste, and only one starts at power greater than 1 (which of course will clearly never see the battlefield turns 1-3 because people will just pay the 4). If I had my way, there would be a good 1 drop in every color at the caliber of Delver, with some sort of reasonable drawback, and flavored keyword ability, if only because they are supposed to be bringing all creatures up to par power wise with spells.
Thus a color cycle of 1 drops would be like the old boost cycle from Alpha (for those who don't know: Healing Salve, Ancestral Recall, Dark Ritual, Lightning Bolt, and Giant Growth). Those were supposed to be balanced, but we can see clearly that White got the shaft with Green close behind. Blue is far and away the best (duh), with Black a close second, and Red a moderately distant third. It somewhat seems that this initial power blunder has paved the way through all of Magic for the power structure of the colors.
However, Wizards is claiming to be trying to fix it. They are trying to make spells worse and creatures better for balance. They did seem to make a pseudo boost cycle in creatures in Innistrad block though, maybe. Look at: Delver, Avacyn Pilgrim, Typhoid Rats, Doomed Traveler, and Forge Devil. These seem to be color flavored and have some sort of "boost" they give you. Though, again we see the same pattern of blue getting far and away the best deal.
So I am not blind to the fact that blue seems to be the favorite color of Wizards R&D. Magic has been around nearly 20 years, and people have been complaining about blue for nearly the entire time. Yet WotC R&D still seems to favor blue. Does this mean that nothing else good is out there? No, it doesn't. If you don't like that Delver is a good card, send a letter to WotC R&D to complain. It isn't unbeatable. I know that everyone knows this. So why is it a big deal that it exists. All everyone can do is hope that fairness is at least moderately attempted in the next set. After all, as I said before, did anyone here even try playing any kind of blue control in Standard around the time of the release of Zendikar? That was a nightmare. Then they released Jace tMS in Worldwake, which still didn't put blue back into top tier right away. In fact, it took the rotation of Jund for Caw-blade to take over in Standard because discard, aggro, and burn hurt blue.
There aren't a lot of terribly great cards that do those things right now at the speed necessary to be relevant. Again, we hope that this changes. Maybe banning Snapcaster is the answer. Maybe banning the Swords is the answer. Maybe banning Delver is the answer. Which one would you ban? I would say Snapcaster, but that hurts decks other than Delver. So would banning Swords. So, to make everything fair, Delver itself should be banned? I don't think there is a right answer here.
It seems as though people who call cards like Delver overpowered are not being honest with themselves about the definition of overpowered. Perhaps these people would enjoy it if there were no good cards in any new sets from now on. Any set that has a range of cards from good to bad will inevitably have best cards. Personally, I like that. I like that there are cards that I can use to gain advantage in a game. I even like it when other people get the advantage in a game over me because they thought of using a card that I didn't in a new and creative way. I learn something new that way.
I kinda wonder if Forge Devil had been a 2/1 with Haste in addition to what it already does if this argument would even exist. I bet it would, though Forge Devil would be on the spot instead of Delver. Sheesh.
I wasn't trying to slight anyone with what I wrote earlier. I was simply expressing my own personal experience with Fae, and trying to change the mindset of how to think about cards like Delver. I don't think it is appropriate to complain about the good cards. I feel it is more important to point out the weaknesses that a good card seems to have. After all, a format warping super card like Bitterblossom, or Jace tMS is only a Wispmare, or Lightning Bolt away from the graveyard. Why waste energy on calling them unfair when that is clear to everyone. Find ways to beat them and win.
With the way thinks are they could just reprint Remove Soul and most people would be happy. Standard is dominated be creatures right now and having RS plus Dissipate with Snappy backup is more than enough.
Wouldn't that just push less creature intensive decks to come about?
Wouldn't that just push less creature intensive decks to come about?
Unlikely. An aggro deck is going to have as many efficient creatures as possible, that having four countered is not going to be problem. Even with both Negate and Remove Soul, those are going to be saved for the "biggest threats" an aggro player might have. And Day of Judgment will still exist to hit aggro players who overextend. Which is also a perfectly fine thing.
Remove Soul would more likely be a hard answer to midrange or other control decks that have one or two very specific creatures as finishers. And depending on what else is going on, Negate would either be a way to "protect" that finisher, or a way to get at something like Unburial Rites, as a way to put a win condition onto the battlefield without directly casting it.
I think that's perfectly fair. There's plenty of room for the development of other kinds of counters at CMCs 1 to 2. Let alone at CMC 3. And I think a removal of Mana Leak from the Core set, since it sets the baseline for other counters in Standard, would enable development of those counters.
Let alone a variety of other ways for blue to manipulate the game. Whether that's via tapping or untapping, card draw, milling, etc. While counters are pretty unique to blue, there are plenty of other effects the color could use.
Changing costs for an effect does happen if they want to change the baseline. Especially something like Counterspell to Cancel. Just like they could drop extra abilities from certain cards, like cycling from Miscalculation. I don't know that they'd go 3U to 1U, but certainly to 2U (or UU) would make for a solid counter and an "upgrade" to Flashfreeze. But rariety is more of a consideration for Limited.
I agree with you about innovation in counter spells, but your second paragraph seems to say that you would be ok if blue didn't have a constructed viable counter spell because there are other things that blue does. I cannot agree with this. Blue has always been about counter spells to some degree, and should always be about counter spells to some degree. I really hope that they don't try to give us Cancel again. A 2 cmc counter is really important for blue to do well, barring special circumstances.
Unlikely. An aggro deck is going to have as many efficient creatures as possible, that having four countered is not going to be problem. Even with both Negate and Remove Soul, those are going to be saved for the "biggest threats" an aggro player might have. And Day of Judgment will still exist to hit aggro players who overextend. Which is also a perfectly fine thing.
Remove Soul would more likely be a hard answer to midrange or other control decks that have one or two very specific creatures as finishers. And depending on what else is going on, Negate would either be a way to "protect" that finisher, or a way to get at something like Unburial Rites, as a way to put a win condition onto the battlefield without directly casting it.
So only having Remove Soul and Negate would push instead for more creature intensive, more aggro decks because they would fair better than Midrange and Control?
Edit: Nevermind, I see what you are saying. It would be more balanced with Remove Soul and Negate over some other catch all. I think that is fine for early game and select situations in late game, but then shouldn't counter spells have a way to be at least decent through the whole game?
I agree with you about innovation in counter spells, but your second paragraph seems to say that you would be ok if blue didn't have a constructed viable counter spell because there are other things that blue does. I cannot agree with this. Blue has always been about counter spells to some degree, and should always be about counter spells to some degree. I really hope that they don't try to give us Cancel again. A 2 cmc counter is really important for blue to do well, barring special circumstances.
That is hardly what I'm suggesting at all. What I'm suggesting is that there are plenty of ways to have both viable and valuable counters in the format if you change the baseline for counters in the Core set. As I've previously argued, the presence of Mana Leak may actually hurt the development of those counters due to its efficiency, its "multi-threat" nature, and its general power level.
Mana Leak is hardly the "only" constructed viable counterspell, especially for Standard. Mana Leak has been a backbone of a counter suite in many control/tempo decks, no differently than other spells for aggro decks, midrange decks, ramp decks, etc. If it were removed from the Core set, then people would shift to other counters that were available and/or whatever replaced it, provided it served as a "good answer" for the format.
What is a "good answer" then becomes a question of analysis of the format, both in terms of the threats you want to deal with and/or what else you may have to deal with.
So only having Remove Soul would push instead for more creature intensive, more aggro decks?
In order for that to happen, they'd also have to remove cards like Day of Judgment. Which is extremely unlikely to happen, since they've been creating any number of new board sweepers as "reset" buttons to keep those kind of strategies in check.
I think that is fine for early game and select situations in late game, but then shouldn't counter spells have a way to be at least decent through the whole game?
Both Essence Scatter/False Summoning/Remove Soul and Negate are hard counters, that work well in both mid to late game. Short of the other person having Negate or some other counter for the "anti-creature" spell, Essence Scatter/False Summoning/Remove Soul work as answers to a creature threat. IMO, it's a better late game card than Mana Leak as well.
The other two I think should be "core set" worth are Stifle and Force Spike. Mostly because Stifle deals with problematic CIP abilities and/or activated abilities. And Force Spike works very well on the first few turns of the game, even select situations in the late game.
They should just explore the vast amounts of space Blue has for design instead of focusing on making blue's early "answers" all counterspells and other "unfun" ways of playing against people.
Seriously, wouldn't a card like this be OK?
Some Name (I'm not creative) -- 1U
Instant
The next time a non-Legendary creature enters the battlefield under an opponent's control this turn, put a token onto the battlefield under your control that is a copy of that creature.
Fun design. Doesn't stop your opponent from getting what they want, but gives it to you, too! Is it good for you against Stromkirk Noble? Probably not. But it scales up to become amazing against Titans, etc. Your opponent still accomplishes their game plan, but by them doing so, you get the same thing for less!
Or maybe something like this would be better at the same cost:
"Copy target non-Legendary creature spell with converted mana cost 5 or less."
That spell wouldn't allow you to hit things like Titans, but virtually every other creature playable in Standard would be able to get hit by something like this. You could make more expensive spells to try and deal with things like Titans, but Blue has such an affinity for copying/screwing with things other players are doing, they don't have to stop the players from doing what they want to do it! Instead of focusing so heavily on countering, blue can focus more on gaining an advantage from having the opponent playing powerful spells, as we can see above. For bombs, I don't see cards like Spelljack being unreasonable to look as a good precedent (and possible reprint).
Is anyone else on board with blue getting more creative and being less about taking the fun away from your opponent?
I actually really like this card, but it seems way too powerful at 2 CMC. Phantasmal Image can hit legendary to be removal but it also is "sorcery" speed and has a significant drawback.
Very true. This card may be too good. I was really just trying to help get the brain juices flowing.
One thing about Phantasmal Image, though, is that he can copy your own creatures, which is huge. He can also hit them after they've been on the field for a while, so he's a great topdeck. This is more in line with blue's idea of "timing is everything," so I wanted to make sure it had a cost that allowed it to be used early.
For example, this is blue's way of dealing with things like Leatherback Baloth. Blue will never match that sort of efficiency on its own, but why not copy someone else's the turn they drop it so you have a blocker? Maybe you can then steal theirs later and have two of them. Or use it in conjuction with Man-o-War type cards to race your opponent and beat them at their own game. Also, the opponents can respond. Green and white, being the creature colors, get decent access to creatures with Flash and Instants that create tokens, so you can respond to a card like this while making a bunch of small, crap creatures. All of the sudden, your 1U gets you a 1/1 Saproling thanks to Sprout Swarm. The point is, a card like this greatly increases interaction between two decks while giving blue strong, solid answers to early threats.
I've always thought of blue as the primary color for "tricksy" Magics. It's the best at turning a deck's strengths into its biggest weakness. And blue traditionally does have cards that do this, so why not explore this territory more? Cheap answers don't have to be unfun for the opponent.
i honestly disagree with this cut, if this happens.
Indeed Mana Leak is a very good card, but the power level of all cards (creatures and planeswalkers) is increasing rapidly and blue premission quality cards is decreasing....
I can understand that permission is considered to be unfun for the new players, or even the non-competitive ones...however cheap premission and conditional (this one is cheap and relatively easy to play around) creates skillfull games where people actually have to think their play order....not to mention the mind games....its a shame it goes away
I agree with the idea behind this post, but I do not agree with keeping Mana Leak. I see Mana Leak as a boring, "catch all" card. There's no reason not to be playing it. You don't need to think about how many copies you want to run. While it is skill intensive to use it correctly, that holds true for almost every Constructed worthy card. Blue can do better.
Mana Leak is all or nothing. All or nothing is almost never fun. More cards should provide more incremental advantages/disadvantages. I'm not trying to tout the card I posted above as some sort of awesome creation, but I think it serves a purpose as an example. Imagine playing that against creatures like Tarmogoyf, Leatherback Baloth, etc. Those creatures are not getting through while you have a copy. It effectively nullifies many creatures even being on the board at all, but it doesn't do so by simply "canceling out" the last play. Once you do that, the play is over. There aren't many future plays to be based around it. However, the card I posted above leads to future interactions.
Does your opponent have removal? If so, he spent an extra card to retroactively counter your counter! Oh no, you have Twincast! Now you've copied their removal and removed their creature as they tried to remove your copy of their creature! This leads to more interaction (and in my opinion, more fun) than simply saying, "No" once and being done with it.
At least that's my opinion on blue. Some people are fans of just telling their opponent No constantly, but I'm not one of them. I'd rather watch more and more get added to the game state until it's a huge, confusing mess with tons of interactions to consider when playing your next instant/sorcery, etc.
Both Essence Scatter/False Summoning/Remove Soul and Negate are hard counters, that work well in both mid to late game. Short of the other person having Negate or some other counter for the "anti-creature" spell, Essence Scatter/False Summoning/Remove Soul work as answers to a creature threat. IMO, it's a better late game card than Mana Leak as well.
The other two I think should be "core set" worth are Stifle and Force Spike. Mostly because Stifle deals with problematic CIP abilities and/or activated abilities. And Force Spike works very well on the first few turns of the game, even select situations in the late game.
I am not advocating the reprint of Mana Leak. Personally, I would prefer they get rid of it for something different, and preferably new.
I see what you are saying regarding Remove Soul type counters. Nicely limited, but effective in both early-mid game and late game. It makes sense in Standard, especially alongside Negate. I guess I would just rather see something new and different than a card that has been reprinted so many times.
I would love to see Stifle and Force Spike in Standard too! That would be epic, because I could bust out my original Legends Spikes! Realistically, I could see Stifle, as long as it doesn't facilitate breaking something. It would actually be a splashable and interesting answer to many annoying things in Standard right now. I don't know about Force Spike though. As much as I want it, it seems like it would cause even more problems than Mana Leak.
I see what you are saying regarding Remove Soul type counters. Nicely limited, but effective in both early-mid game and late game. It makes sense in Standard, especially alongside Negate. I guess I would just rather see something new and different than a card that has been reprinted so many times.
I was looking through the various blue stuff in Standard at the moment, and wondered if they could do a variant of Steel Sabotage, except strictly for creatures. That might have to be UU or 2U, since the current "Counter target creature spell" is 1U, and Unsummon is U.
Yeah, Force Spike may or may not be good in the format. I think the concept is sound, in that it is a 1 mana cost-for-1 mana tax. But that might be too efficient. Miscalculation without cycling is probably the next best thing if Mana Leak isn't reprinted. And honestly, that feels like shifting from Terror to Doom Blade to me.
Edit: But, honestly, the more I look at creatures like Fettergeist and Lone Revenant (especially when the latter has a sword or Spectral Flight), the more interesting MUC becomes. And there's Alchemist's Apprentice as an early blocker. I don't know if it's tier 1, but it might be an interesting thing to try at FNM.
It will probably go back to the old Negate / Essence Scatter setup which is not that bad all things considered.
I think Wotc is severly underestimating how the lack of viable control strategies effects a format. Some people enjoy countering / tapping and stealing things and to say things like players enjoy it more when their spells resolve is saying to them sorry control players we are going to ignore what you want just to pander to the all mighty new player. That can make some old players not want to play standard.
I see. However, Maro's comment doesn't tell when Delver was changed in Development. For all we know, it could have been changed early on and just then never tested. That's still very horrible on R&D's part as a whole, but it's not as bad as making a true last-minute change.
When I think about a "last-minute" change, I think about Development changing Umezawa's Jitte from having "Add B to your mana pool" to "Target creature gets -1/-1 until end of turn" literally right before the card hit the printers because the change occurred during templating.
Seriously? Are we complaining about Faeries again? You know, I never had a problem with beating down Faeries. All I ever needed were some Firespouts and Gutteral Responses. Maybe the occasional Cloudthresher. Not to mention Volcanic Fallout, which is exceptionally funny in response to a champion Faerie. Faeries are not what anyone would call overpowered or unfair. They are exactly what you would expect. They come in effing annoying swarms, but if you have the right bug killer, you are fine.
Not even sure how Delver and Snapcaster compare to Faeries. Delver is a one mana Snapping Drake at its best. At worst it sits at 1/1 for a turn because of a bad shuffle. Thing is, it still has to wait for your upkeep to flip, and Gutshot is free for all decks. Don't like that first turn Delver, float some Gutshots in your 75. The nice thing is that Gutshot is used by Delver because it deals so well with so many other creatures. Sword of War and Peace is also viable for all decks to utilize for life gain.
Snapcaster is in a completely different class from Faeries. Yes, it has a bunch of different blue card abilities "built into" it. However, Snapcaster can be splashed, and gives any instant or sorcery in your graveyard flashback, not just blue ones. There is land available to splash blue into ANY deck, if you really, really want to. Snapcaster does not necessarily live solely in Delver decks. It just works really good there. I am sure, if someone were to try hard enough, they could take quite a few of the strengths in Delver and port them into a completely new deck.
That being said, did you see Zealous Conscripts? Yeah, not one bit of taking red's normal creatures and giving them haste and traditional red spell abilities. Or perhaps we should revisit Gatekeeper of Malakir? Or maybe Ulvenwald Tracker, though this is more of a new ability. There are many more examples of great non-blue cards the would be small, terrible creatures without the keyword ability and some sort of spell effect.
Like I just said, Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker is going to be in the core set. We have got to be in for something on the weirder side of what we normally get.
U are missing the point, u are now forced to run bad cards to stop only 1 part of the meta
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
It is funny how they often seem to make the same "oops"es with Blue cards.
Lorwyn got broke when they took Blue's normally small, terrible creatures, gave them all Flying, and put traditional Blue spell abilities on them. It's basically the same problem with Delver/Snapcaster.
You would have thought that by now they would have learned that the power/toughness on a creature is often the *least* important part of the card. Yet they still act like it matters.
I have to tend to agree with this. Look at the past several "oops that was too powerful in the current game" mistakes pointed out earlier. Cryptic Command, Jace tMS, and Snapcaster Mage are blue, and are three of the most powerful cards ever made. Stoneforge Mystic being white is in an ally color to blue, and is priced right for control for the card advantage it gives without Battertroll and the Swords of Hateskull. Let's not forget affinity (yeah, nooo blue in affinity, haha). In fact, lets go all the way back to the beginning. The power 9. Every non-artifact card in the power 9 is blue.
Now I am not saying that other colors haven't gotten their fair share. Bloodbraid was (still is) the nuts with many decent 3 cmc or less cards, none of which are counterspells. Primeval titan anyone? Hell I even remember trying to play U/B control back in the day against red decks running Hammer of Bogarden. So, it's not like colors outside of blue never get to be nutty.
However, that being said, I think that they have in fact kept the non-blue nuttiness to the same card pool for a couple of years now. First we had Valakut ramp, which then morphed into wolf run ramp. Red deck wins is always red deck wins, duh. I don't think anyone outside of die hard RDW players would enjoy a super powered, unbeatable red deck again. Nor does anyone want another year of titan dumping.
I think part of the problem is that red, black, and green have yet to see absolutely broken planeswalkers (Elspeth and J tMS). However, red and green have seen their own reign over standard recently with Jund and Naya. I actually remember when Jace tMS first came out and was touted as bad because it didn't allow people to instantly beat all Jund, Naya, and monoblack vampires that they faced. Stoneforge was just a little toy for Naya to Bloodbraid into until Scars was released.
Now, we know that a new core set is coming soon. If anyone has any doubt that something new, interesting, and weird is going on with it, simply look at the first card spoiled. Nicol Bolas. A three color planeswalker?! In a core set?! Ok, so we are obviously in for something different. Not to mention that there is quite a few cards that non-blue, non-control players really liked in the same block as Bolas. Not that I think they would actually reprint Bloodbraid in a core set. Though, I wouldn't be surprised to see the Lorwyn Commands have a reprint, and maybe even a make-over. I could see Cryptic and Profane remaining the same, as well as Primal, but who knows?
Maybe losing Mana Leak will end up being considered a fair trade off for the new cool stuff they have in store for everyone.
Or maybe Mana Leak will stay right where it is because its power level will very soon be quite justified in the new standard. I guess we will just have to wait and see
I don't want to steer the thread too far off-topic, but can you please link to where this was said by a member of R&D? I'm just curious to see who mentioned a last-minute change to Delver.
MaRo discussed it on tumblr.
Seriously? Are we complaining about Faeries again? You know, I never had a problem with beating down Faeries. All I ever needed were some Firespouts and Gutteral Responses. Maybe the occasional Cloudthresher. Not to mention Volcanic Fallout, which is exceptionally funny in response to a champion Faerie. Faeries are not what anyone would call overpowered or unfair. They are exactly what you would expect. They come in effing annoying swarms, but if you have the right bug killer, you are fine.
Not even sure how Delver and Snapcaster compare to Faeries. Delver is a one mana Snapping Drake at its best. At worst it sits at 1/1 for a turn because of a bad shuffle. Thing is, it still has to wait for your upkeep to flip, and Gutshot is free for all decks. Don't like that first turn Delver, float some Gutshots in your 75. The nice thing is that Gutshot is used by Delver because it deals so well with so many other creatures. Sword of War and Peace is also viable for all decks to utilize for life gain.
Snapcaster is in a completely different class from Faeries. Yes, it has a bunch of different blue card abilities "built into" it. However, Snapcaster can be splashed, and gives any instant or sorcery in your graveyard flashback, not just blue ones. There is land available to splash blue into ANY deck, if you really, really want to. Snapcaster does not necessarily live solely in Delver decks. It just works really good there. I am sure, if someone were to try hard enough, they could take quite a few of the strengths in Delver and port them into a completely new deck.
That being said, did you see Zealous Conscripts? Yeah, not one bit of taking red's normal creatures and giving them haste and traditional red spell abilities. Or perhaps we should revisit Gatekeeper of Malakir? Or maybe Ulvenwald Tracker, though this is more of a new ability. There are many more examples of great non-blue cards the would be small, terrible creatures without the keyword ability and some sort of spell effect.
Like I just said, Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker is going to be in the core set. We have got to be in for something on the weirder side of what we normally get.
Saying that Faeries were overpowered isn't "complaining", it's simply stating fact. Faeries dominated Standard for an extended period of time. If you were able to do well against them by stuffing your deck with cards that kill Faeries that's great, but it doesn't change how they performed on the larger scale historically.
You mean there are actually cards that can kill Delver? Who knew. I'm not sure what you're trying to prove here. Delver is a very powerful card, more powerful than a 1 mana Blue creature has any right to be. Just because cards exist that can kill it doesn't change that.
I agree with you that Snapcaster is even better, and on it's own is a more versatile card.
Alot of people will miss manaleak. They also want something soild to repalce it if it has to go.
Blue should not get 3/2's for 1.
Snap caster should have been red.
Since they want to push mill so badly here is my little alterantive counter.
U1
Counter target spell unless its control removes the 20 cards from their libary from the game.
I played during Lorowyn. Volcanic Fallout was really helpful, but it was RR and was used mostly in a deck that lost to Doran Rock and Dragonstorm, which Faeries also beat.
By: ol MISAKA lo
Cockatrice: Infallible
this card already exists (Frazzle) as an uncommon and it costs 3U. Would dropping 2 from the casting cost force it to be rare since Frazzle is an uncommon? And it was printed in a heavily multicolored block, so only being able to target nonblue cards was a significant enough drawback that it didn't see play (at least i don't remember it seeing play)
I think that's perfectly fair. There's plenty of room for the development of other kinds of counters at CMCs 1 to 2. Let alone at CMC 3. And I think a removal of Mana Leak from the Core set, since it sets the baseline for other counters in Standard, would enable development of those counters.
Let alone a variety of other ways for blue to manipulate the game. Whether that's via tapping or untapping, card draw, milling, etc. While counters are pretty unique to blue, there are plenty of other effects the color could use.
Changing costs for an effect does happen if they want to change the baseline. Especially something like Counterspell to Cancel. Just like they could drop extra abilities from certain cards, like cycling from Miscalculation. I don't know that they'd go 3U to 1U, but certainly to 2U (or UU) would make for a solid counter and an "upgrade" to Flashfreeze. But rariety is more of a consideration for Limited.
Best Tribe Ever: Curiously enough, not making an appearance here.
I guess it is Bitterblossom that is overpowered, not the Faerie tribe. Sorry for not lumping the entire Faerie archetype in with that one card.
Uh, did that guy really claim to have played during Lorwyn and say that RR was hard to play except for one deck (I'm guessing the thought is RDW)? *cough* Vivid lands *cough* Reflecting pool *cough* 5cc *cough*
One could not have played Fallout in Standard with Doran Rock. Nor could one have played Fallout in Standard with Dragonstorm. Besides, had Fallout been Standard when Dragonstorm was Standard, wouldn't Dragonstorm have used Fallout to help it beat Fae? So are we talking about the time period in which Fae became played heavily in Extended, so it could follow the cards it needed to be good from Time Spiral into Extended? So, it seems that again, we have Fae lacking as a tribe without key overpowered cards that it needs to be good. Yes it has a lot of little flying creatures with good spell abilities on them, but can it perform without Bitterblossom, Runesnag, Cryptic Command, and other overpowered cards that facilitate the tribes greatness?
I guess my point is that if a given format is absolutely swamped by one particular deck, then wouldn't it be prudent to hate on that deck? Clearly one cannot build a good deck entirely out of targeted hate cards, but one can use targeted hate cards in a good deck to gain an advantage over a field that is primarily composed of a large number of very similar decks.
Of course, we have no one but ourselves here to blame for why this sort of thing happens in Standard now. We who post deck lists, or post on the pros and cons of cards, or any other information that can help someone who sees a deck list in the top 8 of tournament listings build it and pilot it better are entirely guilty of causing format floods of particular deck archetypes.
I am not saying that good players cannot see on their own which cards are good, or cannot put together a deck of good cards that works well. What I am saying is that people in general want to win, so if they see a deck that has won quite a bit, they want to try it because they think it will win for them. This applies to both good players and bad players. Does this mean we should stop discussing deck tech and card tech online? Hell no. Let them copy. Let the haters hate. A good player will be able to play around hate. So, if you guys have piloted Faeries and have never had a problem with hate cards, and don't feel that the deck leans heavily on Bitterblossom and good counter spells to be competitive, then more power to you.
On Gutshot: How is incorporating Gutshot, an easily acquired card, into a wide variety of decks "stuffing" them with targeted hate? Last I checked, an early Gutshot can put you ahead against a lot. For instance it hits: Champion, Delver, Birds, Elves, Lavamancer, Spikeshot Elder, Fight Bear, Skirge, Memnite, tokens in response to an equip, etc. So, is this really targeted against Delver?
Is it fair that Delver turns into a 3/2 flyer and it only costs U to bring out? Not really, but I also think that it is bad for it to be 3/2 instead of 2/2. Was it fair that Goblin Guide only cost R for a 2/2 with haste? Not really. That is why they put in the drawback of letting the defending player search for a land. This is the same reason Delver has the drawback of having to spend an entire opponents turn as a 1/1. Do I think that werewolves should have been designed better to be more consistent? Absolutely. Reckless Waif is very tempting, but every time I try to play it I get pissed because it doesn't transform as reliably as Delver does. The fact of the matter is that red should have had a creature for R with haste at around 3/2 to make it fair. But that isn't what happened. Instead red gets Noble, Waif, and Vexing Devil, none of which have haste, and only one starts at power greater than 1 (which of course will clearly never see the battlefield turns 1-3 because people will just pay the 4). If I had my way, there would be a good 1 drop in every color at the caliber of Delver, with some sort of reasonable drawback, and flavored keyword ability, if only because they are supposed to be bringing all creatures up to par power wise with spells.
Thus a color cycle of 1 drops would be like the old boost cycle from Alpha (for those who don't know: Healing Salve, Ancestral Recall, Dark Ritual, Lightning Bolt, and Giant Growth). Those were supposed to be balanced, but we can see clearly that White got the shaft with Green close behind. Blue is far and away the best (duh), with Black a close second, and Red a moderately distant third. It somewhat seems that this initial power blunder has paved the way through all of Magic for the power structure of the colors.
However, Wizards is claiming to be trying to fix it. They are trying to make spells worse and creatures better for balance. They did seem to make a pseudo boost cycle in creatures in Innistrad block though, maybe. Look at: Delver, Avacyn Pilgrim, Typhoid Rats, Doomed Traveler, and Forge Devil. These seem to be color flavored and have some sort of "boost" they give you. Though, again we see the same pattern of blue getting far and away the best deal.
So I am not blind to the fact that blue seems to be the favorite color of Wizards R&D. Magic has been around nearly 20 years, and people have been complaining about blue for nearly the entire time. Yet WotC R&D still seems to favor blue. Does this mean that nothing else good is out there? No, it doesn't. If you don't like that Delver is a good card, send a letter to WotC R&D to complain. It isn't unbeatable. I know that everyone knows this. So why is it a big deal that it exists. All everyone can do is hope that fairness is at least moderately attempted in the next set. After all, as I said before, did anyone here even try playing any kind of blue control in Standard around the time of the release of Zendikar? That was a nightmare. Then they released Jace tMS in Worldwake, which still didn't put blue back into top tier right away. In fact, it took the rotation of Jund for Caw-blade to take over in Standard because discard, aggro, and burn hurt blue.
There aren't a lot of terribly great cards that do those things right now at the speed necessary to be relevant. Again, we hope that this changes. Maybe banning Snapcaster is the answer. Maybe banning the Swords is the answer. Maybe banning Delver is the answer. Which one would you ban? I would say Snapcaster, but that hurts decks other than Delver. So would banning Swords. So, to make everything fair, Delver itself should be banned? I don't think there is a right answer here.
It seems as though people who call cards like Delver overpowered are not being honest with themselves about the definition of overpowered. Perhaps these people would enjoy it if there were no good cards in any new sets from now on. Any set that has a range of cards from good to bad will inevitably have best cards. Personally, I like that. I like that there are cards that I can use to gain advantage in a game. I even like it when other people get the advantage in a game over me because they thought of using a card that I didn't in a new and creative way. I learn something new that way.
I kinda wonder if Forge Devil had been a 2/1 with Haste in addition to what it already does if this argument would even exist. I bet it would, though Forge Devil would be on the spot instead of Delver. Sheesh.
I wasn't trying to slight anyone with what I wrote earlier. I was simply expressing my own personal experience with Fae, and trying to change the mindset of how to think about cards like Delver. I don't think it is appropriate to complain about the good cards. I feel it is more important to point out the weaknesses that a good card seems to have. After all, a format warping super card like Bitterblossom, or Jace tMS is only a Wispmare, or Lightning Bolt away from the graveyard. Why waste energy on calling them unfair when that is clear to everyone. Find ways to beat them and win.
Wouldn't that just push less creature intensive decks to come about?
Unlikely. An aggro deck is going to have as many efficient creatures as possible, that having four countered is not going to be problem. Even with both Negate and Remove Soul, those are going to be saved for the "biggest threats" an aggro player might have. And Day of Judgment will still exist to hit aggro players who overextend. Which is also a perfectly fine thing.
Remove Soul would more likely be a hard answer to midrange or other control decks that have one or two very specific creatures as finishers. And depending on what else is going on, Negate would either be a way to "protect" that finisher, or a way to get at something like Unburial Rites, as a way to put a win condition onto the battlefield without directly casting it.
I agree with you about innovation in counter spells, but your second paragraph seems to say that you would be ok if blue didn't have a constructed viable counter spell because there are other things that blue does. I cannot agree with this. Blue has always been about counter spells to some degree, and should always be about counter spells to some degree. I really hope that they don't try to give us Cancel again. A 2 cmc counter is really important for blue to do well, barring special circumstances.
So only having Remove Soul and Negate would push instead for more creature intensive, more aggro decks because they would fair better than Midrange and Control?
Edit: Nevermind, I see what you are saying. It would be more balanced with Remove Soul and Negate over some other catch all. I think that is fine for early game and select situations in late game, but then shouldn't counter spells have a way to be at least decent through the whole game?
That is hardly what I'm suggesting at all. What I'm suggesting is that there are plenty of ways to have both viable and valuable counters in the format if you change the baseline for counters in the Core set. As I've previously argued, the presence of Mana Leak may actually hurt the development of those counters due to its efficiency, its "multi-threat" nature, and its general power level.
Mana Leak is hardly the "only" constructed viable counterspell, especially for Standard. Mana Leak has been a backbone of a counter suite in many control/tempo decks, no differently than other spells for aggro decks, midrange decks, ramp decks, etc. If it were removed from the Core set, then people would shift to other counters that were available and/or whatever replaced it, provided it served as a "good answer" for the format.
What is a "good answer" then becomes a question of analysis of the format, both in terms of the threats you want to deal with and/or what else you may have to deal with.
In order for that to happen, they'd also have to remove cards like Day of Judgment. Which is extremely unlikely to happen, since they've been creating any number of new board sweepers as "reset" buttons to keep those kind of strategies in check.
Both Essence Scatter/False Summoning/Remove Soul and Negate are hard counters, that work well in both mid to late game. Short of the other person having Negate or some other counter for the "anti-creature" spell, Essence Scatter/False Summoning/Remove Soul work as answers to a creature threat. IMO, it's a better late game card than Mana Leak as well.
The other two I think should be "core set" worth are Stifle and Force Spike. Mostly because Stifle deals with problematic CIP abilities and/or activated abilities. And Force Spike works very well on the first few turns of the game, even select situations in the late game.
Seriously, wouldn't a card like this be OK?
Some Name (I'm not creative) -- 1U
Instant
The next time a non-Legendary creature enters the battlefield under an opponent's control this turn, put a token onto the battlefield under your control that is a copy of that creature.
Fun design. Doesn't stop your opponent from getting what they want, but gives it to you, too! Is it good for you against Stromkirk Noble? Probably not. But it scales up to become amazing against Titans, etc. Your opponent still accomplishes their game plan, but by them doing so, you get the same thing for less!
Or maybe something like this would be better at the same cost:
"Copy target non-Legendary creature spell with converted mana cost 5 or less."
That spell wouldn't allow you to hit things like Titans, but virtually every other creature playable in Standard would be able to get hit by something like this. You could make more expensive spells to try and deal with things like Titans, but Blue has such an affinity for copying/screwing with things other players are doing, they don't have to stop the players from doing what they want to do it! Instead of focusing so heavily on countering, blue can focus more on gaining an advantage from having the opponent playing powerful spells, as we can see above. For bombs, I don't see cards like Spelljack being unreasonable to look as a good precedent (and possible reprint).
Is anyone else on board with blue getting more creative and being less about taking the fun away from your opponent?
Very true. This card may be too good. I was really just trying to help get the brain juices flowing.
One thing about Phantasmal Image, though, is that he can copy your own creatures, which is huge. He can also hit them after they've been on the field for a while, so he's a great topdeck. This is more in line with blue's idea of "timing is everything," so I wanted to make sure it had a cost that allowed it to be used early.
For example, this is blue's way of dealing with things like Leatherback Baloth. Blue will never match that sort of efficiency on its own, but why not copy someone else's the turn they drop it so you have a blocker? Maybe you can then steal theirs later and have two of them. Or use it in conjuction with Man-o-War type cards to race your opponent and beat them at their own game. Also, the opponents can respond. Green and white, being the creature colors, get decent access to creatures with Flash and Instants that create tokens, so you can respond to a card like this while making a bunch of small, crap creatures. All of the sudden, your 1U gets you a 1/1 Saproling thanks to Sprout Swarm. The point is, a card like this greatly increases interaction between two decks while giving blue strong, solid answers to early threats.
I've always thought of blue as the primary color for "tricksy" Magics. It's the best at turning a deck's strengths into its biggest weakness. And blue traditionally does have cards that do this, so why not explore this territory more? Cheap answers don't have to be unfun for the opponent.
I agree with the idea behind this post, but I do not agree with keeping Mana Leak. I see Mana Leak as a boring, "catch all" card. There's no reason not to be playing it. You don't need to think about how many copies you want to run. While it is skill intensive to use it correctly, that holds true for almost every Constructed worthy card. Blue can do better.
Mana Leak is all or nothing. All or nothing is almost never fun. More cards should provide more incremental advantages/disadvantages. I'm not trying to tout the card I posted above as some sort of awesome creation, but I think it serves a purpose as an example. Imagine playing that against creatures like Tarmogoyf, Leatherback Baloth, etc. Those creatures are not getting through while you have a copy. It effectively nullifies many creatures even being on the board at all, but it doesn't do so by simply "canceling out" the last play. Once you do that, the play is over. There aren't many future plays to be based around it. However, the card I posted above leads to future interactions.
Does your opponent have removal? If so, he spent an extra card to retroactively counter your counter! Oh no, you have Twincast! Now you've copied their removal and removed their creature as they tried to remove your copy of their creature! This leads to more interaction (and in my opinion, more fun) than simply saying, "No" once and being done with it.
At least that's my opinion on blue. Some people are fans of just telling their opponent No constantly, but I'm not one of them. I'd rather watch more and more get added to the game state until it's a huge, confusing mess with tons of interactions to consider when playing your next instant/sorcery, etc.
I am not advocating the reprint of Mana Leak. Personally, I would prefer they get rid of it for something different, and preferably new.
I see what you are saying regarding Remove Soul type counters. Nicely limited, but effective in both early-mid game and late game. It makes sense in Standard, especially alongside Negate. I guess I would just rather see something new and different than a card that has been reprinted so many times.
I would love to see Stifle and Force Spike in Standard too! That would be epic, because I could bust out my original Legends Spikes! Realistically, I could see Stifle, as long as it doesn't facilitate breaking something. It would actually be a splashable and interesting answer to many annoying things in Standard right now. I don't know about Force Spike though. As much as I want it, it seems like it would cause even more problems than Mana Leak.
I was looking through the various blue stuff in Standard at the moment, and wondered if they could do a variant of Steel Sabotage, except strictly for creatures. That might have to be UU or 2U, since the current "Counter target creature spell" is 1U, and Unsummon is U.
Yeah, Force Spike may or may not be good in the format. I think the concept is sound, in that it is a 1 mana cost-for-1 mana tax. But that might be too efficient. Miscalculation without cycling is probably the next best thing if Mana Leak isn't reprinted. And honestly, that feels like shifting from Terror to Doom Blade to me.
Edit: But, honestly, the more I look at creatures like Fettergeist and Lone Revenant (especially when the latter has a sword or Spectral Flight), the more interesting MUC becomes. And there's Alchemist's Apprentice as an early blocker. I don't know if it's tier 1, but it might be an interesting thing to try at FNM.
I think Wotc is severly underestimating how the lack of viable control strategies effects a format. Some people enjoy countering / tapping and stealing things and to say things like players enjoy it more when their spells resolve is saying to them sorry control players we are going to ignore what you want just to pander to the all mighty new player. That can make some old players not want to play standard.
I see. However, Maro's comment doesn't tell when Delver was changed in Development. For all we know, it could have been changed early on and just then never tested. That's still very horrible on R&D's part as a whole, but it's not as bad as making a true last-minute change.
When I think about a "last-minute" change, I think about Development changing Umezawa's Jitte from having "Add B to your mana pool" to "Target creature gets -1/-1 until end of turn" literally right before the card hit the printers because the change occurred during templating.
U are missing the point, u are now forced to run bad cards to stop only 1 part of the meta