With the current block focusing on flashback so much, I've been curious how plausible a counterspell with flashback would be. Maybe something that costs 1UU & flashbacks for 2UU or 3UU. I don't know how much a card like that would warp the standard format.
It would be really bad judging by last time that happened which was Fervent Denial. The problem with flashback on a counterspell is that it demands a high flashback cost otherwise the game would have no interactions which is the opposite of what wizards wants
I don't see them printing a really playable counterspell alongside Mana Leak. It's funy though when you think about how many really amazing counterspells were in Standard when Tempest and Urza's were legal, it boggles the mind: (Counterspell, Mana Leak, Dismiss, Forbid, Power Sink, Miscalculation...)
I would like to see something like Forbid, that can only be used twice. Maybe something like:
Forbid 2.0 1UU
Counter target spell
Flashback -1UU, Discard two cards.
I know it's still too good for this day and age, but think, it's still worse than forbid!
I doubt it, the main reason being that counterspells aren't supposed to be predictable. It would just sit there until they tapped too many or you bait the counter, and most people would hate to have to do that.
Maro has said a lot of times that they didn't want to put anything surprising with flashback. Even the card that gave flying and had flashback was taken out because they were too afraid it would surprise people.
A flashback counterspell would be the ultimate version of this so if Jump isn't allowed to flashback there is no way counterspell is.
That's true but at least it doesn't destroy anything. You have a good point but I'm just repeating what Maro said. It would seem out of character for wotc to make a counterspell like this that was playable.
They printed a counterspell with flashback in Odyssey Block, I think it was Fervent Denial It was awful and saw zero play(it wasn't even a 1 of SB card in Wake, even though that deck ran a SB full of 1 of cards with flashback). Even if they printed that spell now, despite spells being vastly less powerful in today's MTG than they were back then, the card would still see no play, except possibly in Limited.
So..I wouldn't expect it to happen. They just don't print good countermagic anymore, because it is 'not fun'. It cracks me up when people say things like 'Mana Leak is too good as it is'. Mana Leak isn't that good at all, it's just what people are used to..but no one bats an eyelash when cards like Lightning Bolt and Duress get reprinted.
They printed a counterspell with flashback in Odyssey Block, I think it was Fervent Denial It was awful and saw zero play(it wasn't even a 1 of SB card in Wake, even though that deck ran a SB full of 1 of cards with flashback). Even if they printed that spell now, despite spells being vastly less powerful in today's MTG than they were back then, the card would still see no play, except possibly in Limited.
So..I wouldn't expect it to happen. They just don't print good countermagic anymore, because it is 'not fun'. It cracks me up when people say things like 'Mana Leak is too good as it is'. Mana Leak isn't that good at all, it's just what people are used to..but no one bats an eyelash when cards like Lightning Bolt and Duress get reprinted.
Well the problem is that blue historically could deal with pretty much anything due to its counterspells while the other colors could only deal with some things.
That is why people say that mana leak is too powerful - it answers pretty much creature or noncreature card.
I think more conditional counterspells are better for the game.
Well the problem is that blue historically could deal with pretty much anything due to its counterspells while the other colors could only deal with some things.
That is why people say that mana leak is too powerful - it answers pretty much creature or noncreature card.
I think more conditional counterspells are better for the game.
Counterspells don't really need to be nerfed even further so they are more conditional or more expensive to cast. Yes, counterspells to most people are very powerful. Being able to say no to virtually any non-land spell ever printed in the history of Magic is very strong. I understand that. But aside from the traditional "play nothing on my turn, counter all your relevant cards that you will ever play on yours", when both players have countermagic the game can be quite fun because both players can be on the same axis of interactivity rather than just one.
Wizards has been a lot more generous with color pie bleeding than it used to be. They have given colors things they never would have gotten years ago, such as giving green completely unconditional creature removal in Beast Within or red the ability to "destroy" enchantments with Chaos Warp. But since the beginning of the game, blue has had a monopoly on countermagic. No other color gets unconditional hard counters other than blue (or even soft counters). The fact that a single color has had dominance over such a fundamentally powerful ability is why blue has been the runaway #1 color since Magic started. Imagine if black had a monopoly on all creature removal, or green on artifact destruction.
So my two cents are this: leave good countermagic as it is, but start giving it to another color like white. Blue shouldn't be the only color that can interact with the stack, ESPECIALLY when Wizards has put such an extreme emphasis on creatures with ETB triggers that counterspells can stop outright without card disadvantage but removal can't. This is why countering a creature is mechanically different from using removal to kill it, TeknoLink. The former denies my opponent of tutoring for an equipment or two lands while the latter leaves me powerless for letting a powerful ETB trigger resolve.
Reprints the one card that people point to when saying that art objectifies women.
Well done Wizards.
Liliana does not objectify women in any way at all. We have gotten to a point in our society that every single picture of a women must be objectifying a women in some negative way......blah blah blah.. That is not the case. (((Sarcasm)))Picture of a girl drinking a milk shake, must be sex related and putting women down, picture of girl sitting on a beach, picture of a girl driving a car, picture of a girl on the moon at a new space station.)))
You have a picture of an attractive strong power women who girls dress up as for anime conventions. What more do you want? The picture is fine, happy to see a reprint. Sick of of seeing people claim that everything in existence must be putting women down. Then all I have to do is replace the word "women" with anything else to get the same mentality; fish, cats, arabs, blacks, jews, men, environment, whites, chinese, old people, etc. It doesn't matter what word I put in. Stop sucking life out of everything man. That artwork of her is awesome. Stop putting stuff down man. Just stop. If the picture was really as negative as you claim she would totally nude, in a kitchen, making sandwiches and giving blow jobs. Her abilities would be horrible as well. +1 do nothing -2 do nothing -6 do nothing. Instead liliana of the veil is an amazing planeswalker comparable to jace, the mind sculpter with great art to appreciate.
My suggestion listen to some comedy radio for a while, pandora is free, youtube is free there is something out there for you. ***** go make fun of somebody. The whole world is so serious and campaigning for some cause, or someones rights, everything is a hate crime, racist, sexist. blah blah blah.
"O no mcdonalds must be slandering a hate crime against skinny people every time they make a big mac." hahaha jeeze You're just someone perpetuating another groups negative perspective that they've made you believe is correct. Look at the picture for a hour and tell me what's wrong with it? I don't see anything.
I have heard vague rumors of a moustache-dispensing vending machine in a distant laundromat, across the street from a tattoo parlor. However, this information is shaky, and time is of the essence.
So my two cents are this: leave good countermagic as it is, but start giving it to another color like white. Blue shouldn't be the only color that can interact with the stack, ESPECIALLY when Wizards has put such an extreme emphasis on creatures with ETB triggers that counterspells can stop outright without card disadvantage but removal can't. This is why countering a creature is mechanically different from using removal to kill it, TeknoLink. The former denies my opponent of tutoring for an equipment or two lands while the latter leaves me powerless for letting a powerful ETB trigger resolve.
Splicing up the themes between red and white would probably work. Having those reflect the color purple. Then giving the anti-creature summonsing to black.
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Ahahahaha. Sorry, but all this crying over counterspells is making my belly hurt.
Really, if you guys hate counterspells, go play a different game, please. Getting your spell countered is the same as having it vindicated/maelstrom pulse'd, it just feels different.
You might want to think about that comment again, because it does more than just feel different. Countering a Titan and Vindicating a Titan are completely different things that end up with completely different board states. There's a reason why creatures like Titans are valued so highly and it's expressly because they still have an affect on the game if they get hit with creature removal, an advantage which counterspells get around.
IMHO cards like Mana Leak, Dissipate, Dispel, Negate, Flashfreeze, are all fine and right about the power level that counterspells should be. They are something that WotC needs to keep a close eye on because they have such a powerful effect on the game.
It'd need to be a really narrow counter or maybe something that doesn't generate card advantage(a bounce-counter or something that lets the Spells' controller draw a card, for example).
Either way, as it has been said before, there might not be Flashback in Avacyn Restored.
But since the beginning of the game, blue has had a monopoly on countermagic. No other color gets unconditional hard counters other than blue (or even soft counters). The fact that a single color has had dominance over such a fundamentally powerful ability is why blue has been the runaway #1 color since Magic started.
I dislike the idea of a counterspell with flashback and I play control. It would either be counter intuitive and lead to boring games or be so bad that it'd be unplayable and take up a slot they could have used to print a better counterspell.
I dislike the idea of a counterspell with flashback and I play control. It would either be counter intuitive and lead to boring games or be so bad that it'd be unplayable and take up a slot they could have used to print a better counterspell.
IMO, Colorshifted cards don't really count when saying which part of the color pie they reside in unless they're something that later gets reprinted, like Naturalize. AFAIK, that leaves us with precious few examples that don't totally suck.
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Playing UX Mana Denial until Modern gets the answers it needs.
WUBRG Humans BRW Mardu Pyromancer UW UW "Control" UR Blue Moon
Mana Tithe has seen some play, although it has been more on the marginal side. Force Spike isn't a bad counter, but it's still situational at best. Same goes with a non-blue counter like Lapse of Certainty. Dash Hopes is an awful, awful card. It doesn't matter if you give other colors counters if they're just going to suck. Molten Influence is also another great example of this.
Would it really be sacrilege to print a 1WWCancel? I honestly don't think so. More colors should be able to interact on the stack, as well as having better answers to EnterstheBattlefield: TheGathering.
The problem is, if it they cost it at 4 (and say 4-6 for flashback) it would probably be too good. The only way they would really do it (even then it's a stretch) is make it conditional somehow (think mana leak/force spike) or cost 6 mana and do something else. (one of the non-draw cryptic effects). I think something like:
Flashback Conditional Hard Counter 2UU
Counter Target non-Creature spell
Flashback 2UU
Counter Target Creature Spell
would be fine, it's still probably too strong.
Even
Flashback mana leak variant 2U
Counter target spell unless it's controller pays 3
Flashback 2UU
would be insane.
Fervent Denial was too expensive, but had they reduced the mana cost by 1 on each cost it would have been really good.
I dislike the idea of a counterspell with flashback and I play control. It would either be counter intuitive and lead to boring games or be so bad that it'd be unplayable and take up a slot they could have used to print a better counterspell.
to be fair both of those aren't "hard counters" and were in Planar Chaos, a set that intentionally spun the color wheel HARD.
And yes, if they make a "good" flashback counterspell, it would make for very boring games of magic.
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Standard:
Bident Layers B Devotion RG Devotion UW Control Modern:
Jund
UW Control
Combo Pod Legacy: DeathBlade RUG Delver BUG Control
Maro has said a lot of times that they didn't want to put anything surprising with flashback. Even the card that gave flying and had flashback was taken out because they were too afraid it would surprise people.
A flashback counterspell would be the ultimate version of this so if Jump isn't allowed to flashback there is no way counterspell is.
There were plenty of instants with flashback. There's just a large difference between having one mana left over or having 4+ untapped.
Mana Tithe has seen some play, although it has been more on the marginal side. Force Spike isn't a bad counter, but it's still situational at best. Same goes with a non-blue counter like Lapse of Certainty. Dash Hopes is an awful, awful card. It doesn't matter if you give other colors counters if they're just going to suck. Molten Influence is also another great example of this.
Would it really be sacrilege to print a 1WWCancel? I honestly don't think so. More colors should be able to interact on the stack, as well as having better answers to EnterstheBattlefield: TheGathering.
They actually tried the white counterspell with Memory Lapse. The conditional ones are exactly the kind of thing white would get. It's more a problem that it's hard to print good, 1-2 mana counters in the color because they'd be dumb in aggro. A better idea would probably be to give white cheap, instant speed protection that can target opponents' stuff and players. Green already has the save my things angle with indestructible, hexproof, and all that. Red already has redirection. Counters should probably go to black as an extension of discard. They could cost life, though, which would be very painful for a pure control deck, so you'd have to use them sparingly. I wonder how good Cancel would be if it cost BB and 3 life. What about B to counter an instant or sorcery, but at the price of 3 life? Negate for 1B with a 2 life payment might be playable, too. I could see vintage/legacy/modern picking those up. You could even sneak in the 1B and 4 life Cancel into one of those non-standard but has new cards products.
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BUG Dredge BUG]
WUBRG Storm WUBRG
UBR FaerieStalker UBR
EDH
Sygg, River Cutthroat (1vs1)
Maga, Traitor to Mortals (multiplayer)
I would like to see something like Forbid, that can only be used twice. Maybe something like:
Forbid 2.0
1UU
Counter target spell
Flashback -1UU, Discard two cards.
I know it's still too good for this day and age, but think, it's still worse than forbid!
Juju Alters - Altered MTG Cards
WUBRG Humans
BRW Mardu Pyromancer
UW UW "Control"
UR Blue Moon
Maro has said a lot of times that they didn't want to put anything surprising with flashback. Even the card that gave flying and had flashback was taken out because they were too afraid it would surprise people.
A flashback counterspell would be the ultimate version of this so if Jump isn't allowed to flashback there is no way counterspell is.
So..I wouldn't expect it to happen. They just don't print good countermagic anymore, because it is 'not fun'. It cracks me up when people say things like 'Mana Leak is too good as it is'. Mana Leak isn't that good at all, it's just what people are used to..but no one bats an eyelash when cards like Lightning Bolt and Duress get reprinted.
Well the problem is that blue historically could deal with pretty much anything due to its counterspells while the other colors could only deal with some things.
That is why people say that mana leak is too powerful - it answers pretty much creature or noncreature card.
I think more conditional counterspells are better for the game.
Counter target Spell
mana, exile ~ from the grave: counter target spell played from the graveyard
Alas, AVR likely has zero flashback!
Counterspells don't really need to be nerfed even further so they are more conditional or more expensive to cast. Yes, counterspells to most people are very powerful. Being able to say no to virtually any non-land spell ever printed in the history of Magic is very strong. I understand that. But aside from the traditional "play nothing on my turn, counter all your relevant cards that you will ever play on yours", when both players have countermagic the game can be quite fun because both players can be on the same axis of interactivity rather than just one.
Wizards has been a lot more generous with color pie bleeding than it used to be. They have given colors things they never would have gotten years ago, such as giving green completely unconditional creature removal in Beast Within or red the ability to "destroy" enchantments with Chaos Warp. But since the beginning of the game, blue has had a monopoly on countermagic. No other color gets unconditional hard counters other than blue (or even soft counters). The fact that a single color has had dominance over such a fundamentally powerful ability is why blue has been the runaway #1 color since Magic started. Imagine if black had a monopoly on all creature removal, or green on artifact destruction.
So my two cents are this: leave good countermagic as it is, but start giving it to another color like white. Blue shouldn't be the only color that can interact with the stack, ESPECIALLY when Wizards has put such an extreme emphasis on creatures with ETB triggers that counterspells can stop outright without card disadvantage but removal can't. This is why countering a creature is mechanically different from using removal to kill it, TeknoLink. The former denies my opponent of tutoring for an equipment or two lands while the latter leaves me powerless for letting a powerful ETB trigger resolve.
1U - Instant
Counter target spell cast from a graveyard.
Flashback 2UUU
Doesn't seem THAT bad, since it's quite restrictive.
Level 1 Judge
Although I'm not sure if it'd happen, I can actually see this being printed; it's pretty darn restrictive.
Splicing up the themes between red and white would probably work. Having those reflect the color purple. Then giving the anti-creature summonsing to black.
Ambition must be made to counteract ambition.
Individualities may form communities, but it is institutions alone that can create a nation.
Nothing succeeds like the appearance of success.
Here is my principle: Taxes shall be levied according to ability to pay. That is the only American principle.
You might want to think about that comment again, because it does more than just feel different. Countering a Titan and Vindicating a Titan are completely different things that end up with completely different board states. There's a reason why creatures like Titans are valued so highly and it's expressly because they still have an affect on the game if they get hit with creature removal, an advantage which counterspells get around.
IMHO cards like Mana Leak, Dissipate, Dispel, Negate, Flashfreeze, are all fine and right about the power level that counterspells should be. They are something that WotC needs to keep a close eye on because they have such a powerful effect on the game.
Either way, as it has been said before, there might not be Flashback in Avacyn Restored.
Mana Tithe
Dash Hopes
I dislike the idea of a counterspell with flashback and I play control. It would either be counter intuitive and lead to boring games or be so bad that it'd be unplayable and take up a slot they could have used to print a better counterspell.
IMO, Colorshifted cards don't really count when saying which part of the color pie they reside in unless they're something that later gets reprinted, like Naturalize. AFAIK, that leaves us with precious few examples that don't totally suck.
WUBRG Humans
BRW Mardu Pyromancer
UW UW "Control"
UR Blue Moon
Mana Tithe has seen some play, although it has been more on the marginal side. Force Spike isn't a bad counter, but it's still situational at best. Same goes with a non-blue counter like Lapse of Certainty. Dash Hopes is an awful, awful card. It doesn't matter if you give other colors counters if they're just going to suck. Molten Influence is also another great example of this.
Would it really be sacrilege to print a 1WW Cancel? I honestly don't think so. More colors should be able to interact on the stack, as well as having better answers to Enters the Battlefield: The Gathering.
Flashback Conditional Hard Counter 2UU
Counter Target non-Creature spell
Flashback 2UU
Counter Target Creature Spell
would be fine, it's still probably too strong.
Even
Flashback mana leak variant 2U
Counter target spell unless it's controller pays 3
Flashback 2UU
would be insane.
Fervent Denial was too expensive, but had they reduced the mana cost by 1 on each cost it would have been really good.
Bident Layers
B Devotion
RG Devotion
UW Control
Modern:
Jund
UW Control
Combo Pod
Legacy:
DeathBlade
RUG Delver
BUG Control
to be fair both of those aren't "hard counters" and were in Planar Chaos, a set that intentionally spun the color wheel HARD.
And yes, if they make a "good" flashback counterspell, it would make for very boring games of magic.
Bident Layers
B Devotion
RG Devotion
UW Control
Modern:
Jund
UW Control
Combo Pod
Legacy:
DeathBlade
RUG Delver
BUG Control
There were plenty of instants with flashback. There's just a large difference between having one mana left over or having 4+ untapped.
They actually tried the white counterspell with Memory Lapse. The conditional ones are exactly the kind of thing white would get. It's more a problem that it's hard to print good, 1-2 mana counters in the color because they'd be dumb in aggro. A better idea would probably be to give white cheap, instant speed protection that can target opponents' stuff and players. Green already has the save my things angle with indestructible, hexproof, and all that. Red already has redirection. Counters should probably go to black as an extension of discard. They could cost life, though, which would be very painful for a pure control deck, so you'd have to use them sparingly. I wonder how good Cancel would be if it cost BB and 3 life. What about B to counter an instant or sorcery, but at the price of 3 life? Negate for 1B with a 2 life payment might be playable, too. I could see vintage/legacy/modern picking those up. You could even sneak in the 1B and 4 life Cancel into one of those non-standard but has new cards products.