Now that the Reprint Policy has been tightened up, we know there will be no reprints of Legacy staples like the dual lands. In addition, there will be no more reprints of reserved list cards in special sets after 2010. However, this does not mean that WOTC could not print new cards in special sets, just like they changed the "all reprint" philosophy in M2010. There has been much discussion of how much better Premium Decks: Slivers would have sold if WOTC had been allowed to include Sliver Queen, but what if they had created a new Sliver card that was even better in the deck? This would have made the product even more attractive, because now there would be a card available nowhere else. Such cards would probably only be Vintage and Legacy-legal, because they wouldn't be part of the regular core set/block schedule.
To get things started, here's an idea for a dual land that would be competitive with Underground Sea in Legacy, but wouldn't violate the reprint policy:
Card Name: Underground Lake
Types: Land - Island Swamp
Rarity: Rare
Text: Tap: Add {U} or {B} to your mana pool. If you have no other lands on the battlefield, Underground Lake does 1 damage to you.
This is almost as good as an Underground Sea, and functionally equivalent if you have any other land out. The drawback is pretty minimal. Obviously, it would be overpowered in Standard, but by releasing it in a special set, you could avoid that problem.
What do you think? Is this an option you think WOTC might pursue?
I think inventing and supporting a format different than legacy makes alot more sense than all the trouble it will take to print the right "staple" cards. They would not take this path even if they had destroyed the reserve list.
I have no problem with them printing cards that are "legal in whatever set we choose" which is likely Legacy and Vintage.
I'd like to see them do a set of these, maybe a mix of these and some Portal/Starter reprints. You could even randomly insert them into M11 boosters. Call it "Masters Challenge Ed" - Only usable in Vintage and Legacy.
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Now that the Reprint Policy has been tightened up, we know there will be no reprints of Legacy staples like the dual lands. In addition, there will be no more reprints of reserved list cards in special sets after 2010. However, this does not mean that WOTC could not print new cards in special sets, just like they changed the "all reprint" philosophy in M2010. There has been much discussion of how much better Premium Decks: Slivers would have sold if WOTC had been allowed to include Sliver Queen, but what if they had created a new Sliver card that was even better in the deck? This would have made the product even more attractive, because now there would be a card available nowhere else. Such cards would probably only be Vintage and Legacy-legal, because they wouldn't be part of the regular core set/block schedule.
To get things started, here's an idea for a dual land that would be competitive with Underground Sea in Legacy, but wouldn't violate the reprint policy:
Card Name: Underground Lake
Types: Land - Island Swamp
Rarity: Rare
Text: Tap: Add {U} or {B} to your mana pool. If you have no other lands on the battlefield, Underground Lake does 1 damage to you.
This is almost as good as an Underground Sea, and functionally equivalent if you have any other land out. The drawback is pretty minimal. Obviously, it would be overpowered in Standard, but by releasing it in a special set, you could avoid that problem.
What do you think? Is this an option you think WOTC might pursue?
Since the Mana Crypt debacle, WotC has avoided printing unique cards that can't be acquired by buying boosters. Now, putting them in something like a Duel Deck or a Premium Deck would probably ensure a decent distribution, so we'll let that part slide.
The biggest problem with your Underground Lake is that you now have people running 4 Underground Lake in their decks, but now they're playing people who have 4 Underground Lake and 4 Underground Sea. So what you'd want to do is have the extremely ugly rules text:
"Underground Lake counts as Underground Sea for deckbuilding purposes."
That's the only way to fix that. And really, I don't see them doing that. Ever.
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I think that restarting cards that are available as promotional would start the decline. Imagine if it was a box topper program, send in XXX booster box tops and get a better baneslayer angel variant that is legal in T2. Secondary market would start at whatever the MSRP of a box times number of tops needed. Your looking at a $400+ card each.
Hm. Your reveal lands have serious potential (and I like the in-depth exploration and look at the options). But how do you solve the "I play this next to my Revised duals" approach?
I think that restarting cards that are available as promotional would start the decline. Imagine if it was a box topper program, send in XXX booster box tops and get a better baneslayer angel variant that is legal in T2. Secondary market would start at whatever the MSRP of a box times number of tops needed. Your looking at a $400+ card each.
Yes, that was why WotC has the policy of not printing functionally different cards that aren't available outside boosters. But like I said, something that was quite available such as a Duel Deck or maybe even the Premium Deck Series might work.
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Since the Mana Crypt debacle, WotC has avoided printing unique cards that can't be acquired by buying boosters. Now, putting them in something like a Duel Deck or a Premium Deck would probably ensure a decent distribution, so we'll let that part slide.
The biggest problem with your Underground Lake is that you now have people running 4 Underground Lake in their decks, but now they're playing people who have 4 Underground Lake and 4 Underground Sea. So what you'd want to do is have the extremely ugly rules text:
"Underground Lake counts as Underground Sea for deckbuilding purposes."
That's the only way to fix that. And really, I don't see them doing that. Ever.
Or if you wanted to jump that hurdle, you could ban Sea when Lake comes out, and the same for the other lands. Though this would probably start a riot of some kind "I spent $123713957029357 on my Underground Sea and now I can't use it?!"
In an eight player game, is anything good? Don't you just sit there countering combos until someone genesis waves for 42 after all the blue players tap out fighting over a bribery?
I think inventing and supporting a format different than legacy makes alot more sense than all the trouble it will take to print the right "staple" cards. They would not take this path even if they had destroyed the reserve list.
i think that inventing a new format would be a terrible mistake. there comes a point where there's too many formats. plus if you cut out a huge chunk of legacy why even bother having a legacy format at all? its not like ALL the cards are broken or expensive, just some. most of them aren't even on the reserve list. people focus entirely too much on dual lands. they're but a small part of what makes a legacy deck expensive and seem unapproachable to newer people.
it makes even less sense to make a new format given that they've been supporting legacy as a format more and more, why would they go and neuter it? chances are they're probably working on alternatives to make it a little easier to get into if anything.
Or if you wanted to jump that hurdle, you could ban Sea when Lake comes out, and the same for the other lands. Though this would probably start a riot of some kind "I spent $123713957029357 on my Underground Sea and now I can't use it?!"
I think I can live with that. Yeah, they'd take a price hit if they weren't legal for Legacy, but it'd probably just drive them down to the $20 range for Vintage and Kitchen players to scoop up. But yeah, that's our rock and hard place.
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Rather than invent a new format, let's give it a couple of years for the duals to cross $100 each then up the Legacy ban list to include everything on the Reserve list.
i think that inventing a new format would be a terrible mistake. there comes a point where there's too many formats. plus if you cut out a huge chunk of legacy why even bother having a legacy format at all?
Yes it's called, let legacy/vintage rot, in favor of something sustainable.
Yes the need replacements for legacy staple or they can just buy up a messload of legacy staples and repack them and sell them so that the masses can get into legacy. I for once dont really give a hoot due to the fact that my store while legacy, only has a few players that own duals and p9. Two of the players own power, those two along with two others own dual lands and legacy staples. The other players really dont have the resources to buy the good stuff. It does not really matter because not enough of the players play decks that are good enough to be a legacy staple
Yes the need replacements for legacy staple or they can just buy up a messload of legacy staples and repack them and sell them so that the masses can get into legacy. I for once dont really give a hoot due to the fact that my store while legacy, only has a few players that own duals and p9. Two of the players own power, those two along with two others own dual lands and legacy staples. The other players really dont have the resources to buy the good stuff. It does not really matter because not enough of the players play decks that are good enough to be a legacy staple
The problem is there aren't enough legacy staples for them to "buy in mass".
Printing new duals and banning the old ones would be awesome. Even a trade in policy. Trade in your old duals for reg or foil new ones?
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You guys need to learn that you can't just jump into Legacy without paying at least a little money. Same goes for standard. If you are playing with Pulses, fetches, or Baneslayers, but complaining about Legacy prices, you are just naive.
If you are too poor to even afford standard prices, then why in the world would you complain about an older format being hard to break into?
Please, accept that Magic costs money to play, and drop it. A playset of Baneslayers>playset of duals. New Jace>Force of Will. Etc... Not to mention, Legacy is so wide open, that it's easy to build a deck that can perform reasonably well without very many "money staples" at all.
Yes it's called, let legacy/vintage rot, in favor of something sustainable.
Yup it is pretty much what is going to happen. Thanks to a few people out there that somehow thought that cardboard was an investment two entire formats are going to die.
It is this or the other suggestion of simply lumping vintage and legacy together, calling it eternal, and banning the entire reserve list. Personally I like this as it has the advantage of giving a giant middle finger to the "Collectors" out there.
Quite frankly some people's "solutions" make me sad. I would have hoped there would be a little more understanding in Wizards' decision. People's cries for banning the duals in Legacy is using the very same selfish attitude they were originally fighting against.
First reprints were desired, to drive the price down. Now, it's evident that won't happen. Now it is ban all the Reserved List cards! To drive the price down. Isn't it wrong to think that others should suffer for your personal happiness? I can't agree with anyone who thinks this way. If your only solution to a problem creates more problems for others, can it really be considered a proper solution?
When it comes down to it, can you really blame Wizards for siding with those who would pay $50 for a 15 year old card, rather than those who are unwilling to? What does that tell you about each customer?
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Since the Mana Crypt debacle, WotC has avoided printing unique cards that can't be acquired by buying boosters. Now, putting them in something like a Duel Deck or a Premium Deck would probably ensure a decent distribution, so we'll let that part slide.
The biggest problem with your Underground Lake is that you now have people running 4 Underground Lake in their decks, but now they're playing people who have 4 Underground Lake and 4 Underground Sea. So what you'd want to do is have the extremely ugly rules text:
"Underground Lake counts as Underground Sea for deckbuilding purposes."
That's the only way to fix that. And really, I don't see them doing that. Ever.
Good point about the doubling up, but we'd have to do some playtesting to see how much of a difference it would make to have four of both kinds vs. four of one kind. The idea is not to replace the original duals, but to keep the prices from spiking too high by creating more viable alternatives. Part of what has prevented this from happening is concern about unbalancing the Standard environment, which wouldn't be an issue if the cards were not released in a core set or regular expansion. I like many of MTGColorPie's proposals.
Others have proposed restricting or banning the cards on the Reserved List, which is another way to address the issue, but I'd rather see players have more choices rather than less.
Good point about the doubling up, but we'd have to do some playtesting to see how much of a difference it would make to have four of both kinds vs. four of one kind. The idea is not to replace the original duals, but to keep the prices from spiking too high by creating more viable alternatives. Part of what has prevented this from happening is concern about unbalancing the Standard environment, which wouldn't be an issue if the cards were not released in a core set or regular expansion. I like many of MTGColorPie's proposals.
Others have proposed restricting or banning the cards on the Reserved List, which is another way to address the issue, but I'd rather see players have more choices rather than less.
More choices are better than less, generally. I really do like your idea of bypassing Standard by printing them in box sets. It's elegant, and lets us come closer to a perfect solution without having to worry about what the hypothetical land would do to Standard.
I Googled "Legacy decklist" and found some random deck lists. There were basic lands in multicolor decks, so I'd presume that they'd be more than happy to replace those with whatever dual alternative we come up with (Blood Moon and Magus thereof notwithstanding). How relevant it would be, I cannot say without, as you said, playtesting.
One thing we ought to consider, though - if the cards don't have the same name, then people can play 2 in an EDH deck. I'm pretty sure that gives a reasonable advantage. How about:
"If you control [Cardname], you cannot play [Corresponding Cardname]. If you control [Corresponding Cardname], you may not play [Cardname]"?
Sure, you can still use a fetch to get it out, but I feel that the power level of that isn't terribly high if you've already got four of one kind out (or in EDH if you've got your Revised and Rav duals out).
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The problem is that WotC are paying to much attention to the collector's value of a card, like the comic book industry did in the 1990s, an incident that comics still haven't recovered from. In its base form, its all about playability and fun in all game formats of magic. Personally, I don't care much about the monetary value of a card. Its about what it can do for me while I play. I would still like to keep at least one copy because I like to say, yeah, I have that. WotC should never have have a reserve list in the first place. All cards should have been eligible for reprint.
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Quite frankly some people's "solutions" make me sad. I would have hoped there would be a little more understanding in Wizards' decision. People's cries for banning the duals in Legacy is using the very same selfish attitude they were originally fighting against.
First reprints were desired, to drive the price down. Now, it's evident that won't happen. Now it is ban all the Reserved List cards! To drive the price down. Isn't it wrong to think that others should suffer for your personal happiness? I can't agree with anyone who thinks this way. If your only solution to a problem creates more problems for others, can it really be considered a proper solution?
When it comes down to it, can you really blame Wizards for siding with those who would pay $50 for a 15 year old card, rather than those who are unwilling to? What does that tell you about each customer?
It's not about driving the price down on such cards, it's about keeping the formats accessible enough for the average player to have a chance of participating in them on a meaningful level. There simply aren't enough of the duals out there to go around regardless of price, while banning them would move the Ravnica duals into their place (and driving up THEIR value - which is acceptable due to the significantly larger quantity of Ravnica shocklands in circulation compared to the original dual lands).
As for WotC's choice of side, it's not as obvious as one might think. Every single penny that WotC will ever make off of cards on the reserved list has already been made (barring Zendikar-style Priceless Treasures shenanigans). Now it's the secondary market that's making money off of them. Don't get me wrong, the secondary market is essential for the survival of the game, and preserving the value of old cards is essential for the survival of the secondary market. But the fact of the matter is that people that buy singles contribute significantly less to WotC's profit margin than players that go fishing for cards in boosters.
Worse, the Reserved List was originally drafted when the market forces behind card value were poorly understood. It was thought that reprinting cards hurt their value because there's more of a supply. While it is possible for WotC to tank a card's value by oversaturating the market, this is much harder to do than one might think.
Format legality is a big deal - people who own Baneslayers that don't want it in M11 to preserve their value will find that its value would tank if it's NOT reprinted because it would no longer be Standard legal. Birds of Paradise took a significant hit in value when it wasn't printed in 9th Edition, only to recover when it was printed in Ravnica. Once Noble Heirarch rotates out, we can expect it to go up in value again.
And then there's the spike in demand that simply putting a card in people's hands can generate. When FtV:E came out, two of Berserk's printings were entirely unaffected by the increased number of Berserks out there and a third went up in value. Now, why might this happen? No new competitive decks started using Berserk and it didn't become legal in any new formats. The only possibility is that by putting a singleton in the hands of players (instead of investors), those players then wanted to finish out their playsets. Without changing its format legality, the increased number of new Berserks in circulation increased in value simply by increasing the demand for them.
In the long term, as Vintage and Legacy dwindle in popularity thanks to the tightened Reserved List, we can expect the value of Reserved List cards to dwindle in value.
Gnomedragondisciple congrats you hit the issue on the head.
It is not simply about price but the accessibility of the eternal formats to newer players. Sure a playset of Baneslayers is more expensive than a set of the original duals but I can find a standard tournament once a week to use those but it is so very hard to find legacy tournaments. If the format is to survive it needs new blood and frankly that is not going to happen unless something is done to make it more accessible.
On a related note standard decks are pretty cheap compared to legacy. The most expensive standard deck is either W/U control or Mythic Bant depending on the build and they run about as much as one of the cheapest semi competitive legacy decks reanimator so I hardly think that is a fair comparison.
You guys need to learn that you can't just jump into Legacy without paying at least a little money. Same goes for standard. If you are playing with Pulses, fetches, or Baneslayers, but complaining about Legacy prices, you are just naive.
If you are too poor to even afford standard prices, then why in the world would you complain about an older format being hard to break into?
Please, accept that Magic costs money to play, and drop it. A playset of Baneslayers>playset of duals. New Jace>Force of Will. Etc... Not to mention, Legacy is so wide open, that it's easy to build a deck that can perform reasonably well without very many "money staples" at all.
While I will agree with that statement I have to say in your examples thats usually the powerhouse of the deck. Other than UW control and needing 4 jaces and 3-4 BSA most tier 1 decks can be built for 200-300$.
Build me a tier 1 deck in vintage for 200-300$...It can't be done
Workshops, Bazaars, duals, Fow, mana drain...these are all staples and with FoW hitting 50$ea and duals getting close and the rest above the 100$ mark it gets exp.
I'm not saying people have the right to old cards and yes it cost money but I do feel that a format is unhealthy when you can't expand the player base. If there are enough cards for 100k people to have a playset of duals to play their decks in the world and 500k people want to play that format than how is that fair to the others? Basically what people are saying is since I've been playing longer or have the money to fork out 10,000$$$ to get my p9 and playsets of staples I deserve the right to play and not you.
I'm a perfect example, I am playing UW in standard and I'll admit my deck is mostly foil and is pushing 600-800$ in value. I would love to play vintage but I can't seem to force myself to play a format that doesn't have the people. My area has 30-40 magic players non can afford the 1,000$ plus dollars to make a half ass decent vintage deck. I think they should have the ability to play vintage.
level up is absolute garbage. yes somebody feel free to quote me on this in their sig. NONE OF THE LEVEL UP CARDS SHOWN TODAY WILL SEE COMPETITIVE PLAY OUTSIDE OF LIKE ROE ONLY CONSTRUCTED OR SOME GARBAGE.
While I will agree with that statement I have to say in your examples thats usually the powerhouse of the deck. Other than UW control and needing 4 jaces and 3-4 BSA most tier 1 decks can be built for 200-300$.
Build me a tier 1 deck in vintage for 200-300$...It can't be done
Workshops, Bazaars, duals, Fow, mana drain...these are all staples and with FoW hitting 50$ea and duals getting close and the rest above the 100$ mark it gets exp.
I'm not saying people have the right to old cards and yes it cost money but I do feel that a format is unhealthy when you can't expand the player base. If there are enough cards for 100k people to have a playset of duals to play their decks in the world and 500k people want to play that format than how is that fair to the others? Basically what people are saying is since I've been playing longer or have the money to fork out 10,000$$$ to get my p9 and playsets of staples I deserve the right to play and not you.
I'm a perfect example, I am playing UW in standard and I'll admit my deck is mostly foil and is pushing 600-800$ in value. I would love to play vintage but I can't seem to force myself to play a format that doesn't have the people. My area has 30-40 magic players non can afford the 1,000$ plus dollars to make a half ass decent vintage deck. I think they should have the ability to play vintage.
I totally agree with you but I have to say that it is not strictly about the money. Lets say half of the 30-40 players could afford it (they won a small lottery jackpot, I dunno). Seventeen new people would be playing in your area and lets say 11 of them need one set of dual lands. All of this is pretty low ball. Someone else in another thread was saying that there are 491 duals on a site. That means that almost ten percent of the duals from that site would be gone. From half of one play group. What if the format was actually healthy? This is the issue. We lose old cards everyday from various causes and we will never get them back now which relegates legacy to a slow death which is ultimately my problem with the reserved list. Oh and to all of the investors who count on the value of their cards what do you think will happen if legacy and vintage die?
My guess is that Wizards solution is simply allowing more proxies at vintage tournaments. Maybe give away P9 proxies in a core set where the tokens normally go.
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To get things started, here's an idea for a dual land that would be competitive with Underground Sea in Legacy, but wouldn't violate the reprint policy:
Card Name: Underground Lake
Types: Land - Island Swamp
Rarity: Rare
Text: Tap: Add {U} or {B} to your mana pool. If you have no other lands on the battlefield, Underground Lake does 1 damage to you.
This is almost as good as an Underground Sea, and functionally equivalent if you have any other land out. The drawback is pretty minimal. Obviously, it would be overpowered in Standard, but by releasing it in a special set, you could avoid that problem.
What do you think? Is this an option you think WOTC might pursue?
I'd like to see them do a set of these, maybe a mix of these and some Portal/Starter reprints. You could even randomly insert them into M11 boosters. Call it "Masters Challenge Ed" - Only usable in Vintage and Legacy.
Since the Mana Crypt debacle, WotC has avoided printing unique cards that can't be acquired by buying boosters. Now, putting them in something like a Duel Deck or a Premium Deck would probably ensure a decent distribution, so we'll let that part slide.
The biggest problem with your Underground Lake is that you now have people running 4 Underground Lake in their decks, but now they're playing people who have 4 Underground Lake and 4 Underground Sea. So what you'd want to do is have the extremely ugly rules text:
"Underground Lake counts as Underground Sea for deckbuilding purposes."
That's the only way to fix that. And really, I don't see them doing that. Ever.
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Hm. Your reveal lands have serious potential (and I like the in-depth exploration and look at the options). But how do you solve the "I play this next to my Revised duals" approach?
Yes, that was why WotC has the policy of not printing functionally different cards that aren't available outside boosters. But like I said, something that was quite available such as a Duel Deck or maybe even the Premium Deck Series might work.
Or if you wanted to jump that hurdle, you could ban Sea when Lake comes out, and the same for the other lands. Though this would probably start a riot of some kind "I spent $123713957029357 on my Underground Sea and now I can't use it?!"
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i think that inventing a new format would be a terrible mistake. there comes a point where there's too many formats. plus if you cut out a huge chunk of legacy why even bother having a legacy format at all? its not like ALL the cards are broken or expensive, just some. most of them aren't even on the reserve list. people focus entirely too much on dual lands. they're but a small part of what makes a legacy deck expensive and seem unapproachable to newer people.
it makes even less sense to make a new format given that they've been supporting legacy as a format more and more, why would they go and neuter it? chances are they're probably working on alternatives to make it a little easier to get into if anything.
I think I can live with that. Yeah, they'd take a price hit if they weren't legal for Legacy, but it'd probably just drive them down to the $20 range for Vintage and Kitchen players to scoop up. But yeah, that's our rock and hard place.
Yes it's called, let legacy/vintage rot, in favor of something sustainable.
The problem is there aren't enough legacy staples for them to "buy in mass".
Printing new duals and banning the old ones would be awesome. Even a trade in policy. Trade in your old duals for reg or foil new ones?
If you are too poor to even afford standard prices, then why in the world would you complain about an older format being hard to break into?
Please, accept that Magic costs money to play, and drop it. A playset of Baneslayers>playset of duals. New Jace>Force of Will. Etc... Not to mention, Legacy is so wide open, that it's easy to build a deck that can perform reasonably well without very many "money staples" at all.
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Yup it is pretty much what is going to happen. Thanks to a few people out there that somehow thought that cardboard was an investment two entire formats are going to die.
It is this or the other suggestion of simply lumping vintage and legacy together, calling it eternal, and banning the entire reserve list. Personally I like this as it has the advantage of giving a giant middle finger to the "Collectors" out there.
First reprints were desired, to drive the price down. Now, it's evident that won't happen. Now it is ban all the Reserved List cards! To drive the price down. Isn't it wrong to think that others should suffer for your personal happiness? I can't agree with anyone who thinks this way. If your only solution to a problem creates more problems for others, can it really be considered a proper solution?
When it comes down to it, can you really blame Wizards for siding with those who would pay $50 for a 15 year old card, rather than those who are unwilling to? What does that tell you about each customer?
—Lim-Dûl, the Necromancer
Good point about the doubling up, but we'd have to do some playtesting to see how much of a difference it would make to have four of both kinds vs. four of one kind. The idea is not to replace the original duals, but to keep the prices from spiking too high by creating more viable alternatives. Part of what has prevented this from happening is concern about unbalancing the Standard environment, which wouldn't be an issue if the cards were not released in a core set or regular expansion. I like many of MTGColorPie's proposals.
Others have proposed restricting or banning the cards on the Reserved List, which is another way to address the issue, but I'd rather see players have more choices rather than less.
More choices are better than less, generally. I really do like your idea of bypassing Standard by printing them in box sets. It's elegant, and lets us come closer to a perfect solution without having to worry about what the hypothetical land would do to Standard.
I Googled "Legacy decklist" and found some random deck lists. There were basic lands in multicolor decks, so I'd presume that they'd be more than happy to replace those with whatever dual alternative we come up with (Blood Moon and Magus thereof notwithstanding). How relevant it would be, I cannot say without, as you said, playtesting.
One thing we ought to consider, though - if the cards don't have the same name, then people can play 2 in an EDH deck. I'm pretty sure that gives a reasonable advantage. How about:
"If you control [Cardname], you cannot play [Corresponding Cardname]. If you control [Corresponding Cardname], you may not play [Cardname]"?
Sure, you can still use a fetch to get it out, but I feel that the power level of that isn't terribly high if you've already got four of one kind out (or in EDH if you've got your Revised and Rav duals out).
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It's not about driving the price down on such cards, it's about keeping the formats accessible enough for the average player to have a chance of participating in them on a meaningful level. There simply aren't enough of the duals out there to go around regardless of price, while banning them would move the Ravnica duals into their place (and driving up THEIR value - which is acceptable due to the significantly larger quantity of Ravnica shocklands in circulation compared to the original dual lands).
As for WotC's choice of side, it's not as obvious as one might think. Every single penny that WotC will ever make off of cards on the reserved list has already been made (barring Zendikar-style Priceless Treasures shenanigans). Now it's the secondary market that's making money off of them. Don't get me wrong, the secondary market is essential for the survival of the game, and preserving the value of old cards is essential for the survival of the secondary market. But the fact of the matter is that people that buy singles contribute significantly less to WotC's profit margin than players that go fishing for cards in boosters.
Worse, the Reserved List was originally drafted when the market forces behind card value were poorly understood. It was thought that reprinting cards hurt their value because there's more of a supply. While it is possible for WotC to tank a card's value by oversaturating the market, this is much harder to do than one might think.
Format legality is a big deal - people who own Baneslayers that don't want it in M11 to preserve their value will find that its value would tank if it's NOT reprinted because it would no longer be Standard legal. Birds of Paradise took a significant hit in value when it wasn't printed in 9th Edition, only to recover when it was printed in Ravnica. Once Noble Heirarch rotates out, we can expect it to go up in value again.
And then there's the spike in demand that simply putting a card in people's hands can generate. When FtV:E came out, two of Berserk's printings were entirely unaffected by the increased number of Berserks out there and a third went up in value. Now, why might this happen? No new competitive decks started using Berserk and it didn't become legal in any new formats. The only possibility is that by putting a singleton in the hands of players (instead of investors), those players then wanted to finish out their playsets. Without changing its format legality, the increased number of new Berserks in circulation increased in value simply by increasing the demand for them.
In the long term, as Vintage and Legacy dwindle in popularity thanks to the tightened Reserved List, we can expect the value of Reserved List cards to dwindle in value.
It is not simply about price but the accessibility of the eternal formats to newer players. Sure a playset of Baneslayers is more expensive than a set of the original duals but I can find a standard tournament once a week to use those but it is so very hard to find legacy tournaments. If the format is to survive it needs new blood and frankly that is not going to happen unless something is done to make it more accessible.
On a related note standard decks are pretty cheap compared to legacy. The most expensive standard deck is either W/U control or Mythic Bant depending on the build and they run about as much as one of the cheapest semi competitive legacy decks reanimator so I hardly think that is a fair comparison.
While I will agree with that statement I have to say in your examples thats usually the powerhouse of the deck. Other than UW control and needing 4 jaces and 3-4 BSA most tier 1 decks can be built for 200-300$.
Build me a tier 1 deck in vintage for 200-300$...It can't be done
Workshops, Bazaars, duals, Fow, mana drain...these are all staples and with FoW hitting 50$ea and duals getting close and the rest above the 100$ mark it gets exp.
I'm not saying people have the right to old cards and yes it cost money but I do feel that a format is unhealthy when you can't expand the player base. If there are enough cards for 100k people to have a playset of duals to play their decks in the world and 500k people want to play that format than how is that fair to the others? Basically what people are saying is since I've been playing longer or have the money to fork out 10,000$$$ to get my p9 and playsets of staples I deserve the right to play and not you.
I'm a perfect example, I am playing UW in standard and I'll admit my deck is mostly foil and is pushing 600-800$ in value. I would love to play vintage but I can't seem to force myself to play a format that doesn't have the people. My area has 30-40 magic players non can afford the 1,000$ plus dollars to make a half ass decent vintage deck. I think they should have the ability to play vintage.
BUWRG--->> Here to view my stuff <<---GRWUB
I totally agree with you but I have to say that it is not strictly about the money. Lets say half of the 30-40 players could afford it (they won a small lottery jackpot, I dunno). Seventeen new people would be playing in your area and lets say 11 of them need one set of dual lands. All of this is pretty low ball. Someone else in another thread was saying that there are 491 duals on a site. That means that almost ten percent of the duals from that site would be gone. From half of one play group. What if the format was actually healthy? This is the issue. We lose old cards everyday from various causes and we will never get them back now which relegates legacy to a slow death which is ultimately my problem with the reserved list. Oh and to all of the investors who count on the value of their cards what do you think will happen if legacy and vintage die?