In the past, Wizards has proven reluctant to do this sort of thing (reword cards out-of-block with block keywords.) See Chub Toad's lack of Bushido, for one example. Also, with Kicker triggers, PJ would become functionally different, which WotC likewise shies away from.
In the past, Wizards has proven reluctant to do this sort of thing (reword cards out-of-block with block keywords.) See Chub Toad's lack of Bushido, for one example. Also, with Kicker triggers, PJ would become functionally different, which WotC likewise shies away from.
I don't know about you, but to me it seems Wizards "reluctance" has much more to do with the fact that there are almost no examples of block keywords actually having this kind of interaction with past cards; if you exclude FS for obvious reasons, then pretty much the only thing left is your example of Chub Toad - and we know the reason it doesn't have bushido is flavor first.
The functional difference with Ertai's Trickery is a more fitting argument, considering Cyclone is back to where it was before CU.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Planar Chaos was not a mistake neither was it random. You might want to look at it again.
[thread=239793][Game] Level Up - Creature[/thread]
... then pretty much the only thing left is your example of Chub Toad - and we know the reason it doesn't have bushido is flavor first.
Beyond the immediate flavor of Bushido restricted to Samurai, there's also the, shall we say, meta-level flavor of restricting a keyword to a block (or two or three) unless it becomes evergreen. Kicker is tightly tied to Invasion block, and, now, Zendikar block. To have it (or, to be precise, a variant on it) on a random card from Alliances just seems incongruous, even though it technically could be templated with Multikicker
The functional difference with Ertai's Trickery is a more fitting argument, considering Cyclone is back to where it was before CU.
This reversal of the past update of Cyclone is a good further example of the unlikeliness of errata to PJ.
There's also the example of Lifelink, not every card that had "whenever this creature deals damage, you gain that much life" (such as Exalted Angel) was changed to lifelink, Wizards had an article about whether they were going to change Loxodon Warhammer to lifelink or not (in the end they did). IMO I don't think they will errata it to Multikick, but it's up to wizards to decide that.
errata is only done if the effect is exactly the same. as a additional cost is NOT the same as kicker. thats why you can kick off a cascaded spell.
You have to/are able to pay additional costs off of cascade, as you said, but this also includes kicker, which is, in fact, an additional cost.
As such, this also applies to Primitive Justice. If you cascade into it, you can pay additional costs on it exactly like kicker.
If you played it off of a Delay, you can also pay those costs, and you have to pay costs like Lightning Axe's additional cost even if you try to cast it off of suspend or cascade (if you don't have the mana or another card in hand, then it can't be cast, simple as that).
So here, it would be functionally identical. However the reasons stated by others (block mechanic, interaction with cards that reference kicker, arbitrary, and no benefit) Wizards wouldn't errata it.
There was this one artifact that instead of phasing out a creature had this huge textbox explaining what happens to the creature which was exactly the same as phasing but didnt use the keyword because it was in a block that didnt have the phasing mechanic. Sorry i dont have a clue what the card was called think it was from ice age, but yeah it will probably just stay unerrated
errata is only done if the effect is exactly the same. as a additional cost is NOT the same as kicker. thats why you can kick off a cascaded spell.
Kicker is also an additional cost, so how is "as an addiotnal cost" not the same thing as kicker? Also you can pay the additional cost of Primitive Justice off a cascade spell, what's your point exactly?
Still I dont see why they would bother making on errata on this.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
As a response to the definition of a word he clearly didn't understand
ROFL, you are trying to educate me? just because English is not my first language doesn't mean i am uneducated you prick, when you go study to become a genetic researcher or a brain surgeon amd succeed in it you can come and diss me with how smart you are okay? this is freaking card game forum, not cambridge university.
MTGS....Full of fail all day, everyday. Welcome to Hell!
There's also the example of Lifelink, not every card that had "whenever this creature deals damage, you gain that much life" (such as Exalted Angel) was changed to lifelink, Wizards had an article about whether they were going to change Loxodon Warhammer to lifelink or not (in the end they did). IMO I don't think they will errata it to Multikick, but it's up to wizards to decide that.
This is actually a really weird case. What happened is that they changed cards that had the "when this deals damage, you gain life" to lifelink. Loxodon Warhammer was reprinted with lifelink after this happened. Then the M10 rules changes changed lifelink so that it wasn't the same as the "when this deals damage, you gain life" ability any longer, because it was no longer a triggered ability. So they changed all the old cards back to not-lifelink, so they would work as printed (having triggered abilities.) But Loxodon Warhammer had already been reprinted with the word "lifelink" on it.
All the recent precedent is on the side of them not errata-ing cards that could be worded with new mechanics to do similar things; it's very unlikely that they'll do it here.
Chub Toad and Mistform Ultimus did not receive errata because bushido and changeling both have very specific flavor attached to them.
Cyclone's cumulative upkeep errata was removed because it was printed before Ice Age, and it functions slightly differently than cumulative upkeep. Comparable cards with cumulative upkeep, like Balduvian Fallen, use a triggered ability when the upkeep cost is paid, but Cyclone's effect as printed happens immediately after paying without triggering and passing priority.
Oubliette and Tawnos's Coffin similarly were printed before Mirage, and they function slightly differently than phasing by returning the card tapped.
Undergrowth, Primitive Justice, and Taste of Paradise on the other hand would be nearly functionally the same if they had kicker/multikicker. Ertai's Trickery is really the only difference if they were keyworded, which isn't that big an issue. When fear was keyworded it had a more massive affect on cards like Mind Bend than keywording these three cards would have.
Chub Toad and Mistform Ultimus did not receive errata because bushido and changeling both have very specific flavor attached to them.
Cyclone's cumulative upkeep errata was removed because it was printed before Ice Age, and it functions slightly differently than cumulative upkeep. Comparable cards with cumulative upkeep, like Balduvian Fallen, use a triggered ability when the upkeep cost is paid, but Cyclone's effect as printed happens immediately after paying without triggering and passing priority.
Oubliette and Tawnos's Coffin similarly were printed before Mirage, and they function slightly differently than phasing by returning the card tapped.
Undergrowth, Primitive Justice, and Taste of Paradise on the other hand would be nearly functionally the same if they had kicker/multikicker. Ertai's Trickery is really the only difference if they were keyworded, which isn't that big an issue. When fear was keyworded it had a more massive affect on cards like Mind Bend than keywording these three cards would have.
Thank you for the well-reasoned argument that the rest of us CBA'd to put together. I think that the more meta-sense of flavor and branding of tying keywords to blocks prevents this kind of reckless errata. Otherwise, due to all of its innovation, about 1/3 of Alliances would retroactively have keywords from later sets.
Another example of non-errata, Ertai's Meddling "could" have been errated to use Suspend.
Nope. Ertai's Meddling is functional different as you can see in the current Oracle-wording. It returns the spell to the stack "as a copy", because the original wording wouldn't let you make new decisions, e. g. choose new targets, for the returning spell.
Also delay counters != time counters. As multiple cards from TSP-block care about time counters on exiled cards this actually matters.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Planar Chaos was not a mistake neither was it random. You might want to look at it again.
[thread=239793][Game] Level Up - Creature[/thread]
Question, if a new block shows up with some of these cards, is Wizards able to print them using new wordings?
For example, they could reprint Mistform Ultimus in Lorwyn block by just giving it Changeling. But could they reprint Taste of Paradise with Multikicker, adding errata, or would that be impossible?
Same question for Undergrowth and Kicker.
Nope. Ertai's Meddling is functional different as you can see in the current Oracle-wording. It returns the spell to the stack "as a copy", because the original wording wouldn't let you make new decisions, e. g. choose new targets, for the returning spell.
Also delay counters != time counters. As multiple cards from TSP-block care about time counters on exiled cards this actually matters.
Yep, I know they are functionally different. Just like having kicker and having an optional additional cost are also functionally different, mainly because some cards care about kicked spells.
Even more reasons against those type of errata.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Quote from parinoid »
I rolled 5 D6's and got 3 fours. They must have changed the odds of getting a 4!
Question, if a new block shows up with some of these cards, is Wizards able to print them using new wordings?
For example, they could reprint Mistform Ultimus in Lorwyn block by just giving it Changeling. But could they reprint Taste of Paradise with Multikicker, adding errata, or would that be impossible?
Same question for Undergrowth and Kicker.
First thing first: Wizards is able to do anything from adding new card types to the game to changing how combat damage works or what the card frame looks like. Anything.
But then again, there are certain things they simply don't actually do, e. g. legendary permanent cards aren't reprinted outside of reprint sets like the core set or the purple rarity subset. Preprints may play a special role here to speculate on (also Mistform Ultimus is rather lame since it would be a french vanilla - stress on vanilla - if ever reprinted in such a way).
Reprinting the cards with multikicker is another thing I do not expect them to do. For one I am not sure WWK will have off-color multikicker (needed for some IIRC). Also the card would have to be extraordinarily appealing from a flavor/mechanical perspective, which I don't see being the case.
Last but not least: If they really want to bring back such a card with multikicker they likely would prefer a functional reprint most of the time (s. a. Alara protection bears).
Yep, I know they are functionally different. Just like having kicker and having an optional additional cost are also functionally different, mainly because some cards care about kicked spells.
Not meant to argue, but more out of curiosity: Why mainly?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Planar Chaos was not a mistake neither was it random. You might want to look at it again.
[thread=239793][Game] Level Up - Creature[/thread]
It says "As an additional cost to cast Primitive Justice, you may pay 1R and/or 1G any number of times."
From Comet Storm, we have:
Multikicker 1 (You may pay an additional 1 any number of times as you cast this spell.)
They're basically the same, and the justice could be worded as Multikicker 1R and/or 1G
Mafia Stats
Kill shot: BB
Issue with my shooting? Please visit my helpdesk and help me learn to aim!
I don't know about you, but to me it seems Wizards "reluctance" has much more to do with the fact that there are almost no examples of block keywords actually having this kind of interaction with past cards; if you exclude FS for obvious reasons, then pretty much the only thing left is your example of Chub Toad - and we know the reason it doesn't have bushido is flavor first.
The functional difference with Ertai's Trickery is a more fitting argument, considering Cyclone is back to where it was before CU.
Finally a good white villain quote: "So, do I ever re-evaluate my life choices? Never, because I know what I'm doing is a righteous cause."
Factions: Sleeping
Remnants: Valheim
Legendary Journey: Heroes & Planeswalkers
Saga: Shards of Rabiah
Legends: The Elder Dragons
Read up on Red Flags & NWO
Beyond the immediate flavor of Bushido restricted to Samurai, there's also the, shall we say, meta-level flavor of restricting a keyword to a block (or two or three) unless it becomes evergreen. Kicker is tightly tied to Invasion block, and, now, Zendikar block. To have it (or, to be precise, a variant on it) on a random card from Alliances just seems incongruous, even though it technically could be templated with Multikicker
This reversal of the past update of Cyclone is a good further example of the unlikeliness of errata to PJ.
After all, technically Chub Toad should have Bushido 2, but it doesn't.
R Citizen Cane (Feldon of the Third Path)
PLus, there is really no benefit of doing that errata.
You have to/are able to pay additional costs off of cascade, as you said, but this also includes kicker, which is, in fact, an additional cost.
As such, this also applies to Primitive Justice. If you cascade into it, you can pay additional costs on it exactly like kicker.
If you played it off of a Delay, you can also pay those costs, and you have to pay costs like Lightning Axe's additional cost even if you try to cast it off of suspend or cascade (if you don't have the mana or another card in hand, then it can't be cast, simple as that).
So here, it would be functionally identical. However the reasons stated by others (block mechanic, interaction with cards that reference kicker, arbitrary, and no benefit) Wizards wouldn't errata it.
Another example of non-errata, Ertai's Meddling "could" have been errated to use Suspend.
Kicker is also an additional cost, so how is "as an addiotnal cost" not the same thing as kicker? Also you can pay the additional cost of Primitive Justice off a cascade spell, what's your point exactly?
Still I dont see why they would bother making on errata on this.
MTGS....Full of fail all day, everyday. Welcome to Hell!
All the recent precedent is on the side of them not errata-ing cards that could be worded with new mechanics to do similar things; it's very unlikely that they'll do it here.
Cyclone's cumulative upkeep errata was removed because it was printed before Ice Age, and it functions slightly differently than cumulative upkeep. Comparable cards with cumulative upkeep, like Balduvian Fallen, use a triggered ability when the upkeep cost is paid, but Cyclone's effect as printed happens immediately after paying without triggering and passing priority.
Oubliette and Tawnos's Coffin similarly were printed before Mirage, and they function slightly differently than phasing by returning the card tapped.
Undergrowth, Primitive Justice, and Taste of Paradise on the other hand would be nearly functionally the same if they had kicker/multikicker. Ertai's Trickery is really the only difference if they were keyworded, which isn't that big an issue. When fear was keyworded it had a more massive affect on cards like Mind Bend than keywording these three cards would have.
Thank you for the well-reasoned argument that the rest of us CBA'd to put together. I think that the more meta-sense of flavor and branding of tying keywords to blocks prevents this kind of reckless errata. Otherwise, due to all of its innovation, about 1/3 of Alliances would retroactively have keywords from later sets.
Nope. Ertai's Meddling is functional different as you can see in the current Oracle-wording. It returns the spell to the stack "as a copy", because the original wording wouldn't let you make new decisions, e. g. choose new targets, for the returning spell.
Also delay counters != time counters. As multiple cards from TSP-block care about time counters on exiled cards this actually matters.
Finally a good white villain quote: "So, do I ever re-evaluate my life choices? Never, because I know what I'm doing is a righteous cause."
Factions: Sleeping
Remnants: Valheim
Legendary Journey: Heroes & Planeswalkers
Saga: Shards of Rabiah
Legends: The Elder Dragons
Read up on Red Flags & NWO
For example, they could reprint Mistform Ultimus in Lorwyn block by just giving it Changeling. But could they reprint Taste of Paradise with Multikicker, adding errata, or would that be impossible?
Same question for Undergrowth and Kicker.
( 0.0 )
=O ((U/R)) O=
(")(")
I'm an AI making Magic cards.
http://www.staalmedia.nl/nexus/#generate
Even more reasons against those type of errata.
First thing first: Wizards is able to do anything from adding new card types to the game to changing how combat damage works or what the card frame looks like. Anything.
But then again, there are certain things they simply don't actually do, e. g. legendary permanent cards aren't reprinted outside of reprint sets like the core set or the purple rarity subset. Preprints may play a special role here to speculate on (also Mistform Ultimus is rather lame since it would be a french vanilla - stress on vanilla - if ever reprinted in such a way).
Reprinting the cards with multikicker is another thing I do not expect them to do. For one I am not sure WWK will have off-color multikicker (needed for some IIRC). Also the card would have to be extraordinarily appealing from a flavor/mechanical perspective, which I don't see being the case.
Last but not least: If they really want to bring back such a card with multikicker they likely would prefer a functional reprint most of the time (s. a. Alara protection bears).
Not meant to argue, but more out of curiosity: Why mainly?
Finally a good white villain quote: "So, do I ever re-evaluate my life choices? Never, because I know what I'm doing is a righteous cause."
Factions: Sleeping
Remnants: Valheim
Legendary Journey: Heroes & Planeswalkers
Saga: Shards of Rabiah
Legends: The Elder Dragons
Read up on Red Flags & NWO