We're in a time in Magic with Volcanic Fallout, lightning bolt, doom blade, path to exile, and other instant speed removal. I don't think this is broken, but still very good.
If my opponent is trading his best removal 1-for-1 with my 2 drops, I'm VERY much ahead. You sir, do not understand magic theory enough if you think that good removal means that low curving creatures can just break out of the curve. Good removal means creatures that cost 5+ with extraordinary abilities can be printed. Things like Baneslayer Angel are crazy cool but still prone to giving their caster a debilitating tempo loss. If I go turn 2 Warren Instigator and you Doom Blade/VF/whatever it, I'll just untap and go "ok, another?"
Understand the Tarmogoyf and you will understand the balance of aggressive creature design.
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A voice for Timmy.
Commander R Ashling, the Pilgrim Mono Red Wildfire Control GBW Karador, Ghost Chieftain Abzan Dredge Rock WBR Tariel, Reckoner of Souls Mardu Aggro-Reanimator Midrange
Well, Im looking at it this way. When Goyf was in Type 2, he was what? 35 dollars? And Evan's saying Instigator's gonna be going for 40 a piece? You have to expect something broken.
Would +1/+0 and the Instigator being a 1/1 be better?
My completely baseless and likely wrong prediction
Warren Instigator RR
Creature - Goblin
Double Strike
Whenever Goblin Instigator deals damage to a player, you may put a goblin from your hand onto the battlefield. "Danger, danger! Come out of the safety of your holes!"
1/1
this may or may not have been posited before...
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just look at baneslayer for some inspiration ^^
a 5/5 flying first strike lifelink isnt broken
5 mana =/= 2 mana. At 5 mana, there are a TON of ways to respond, in most colors. At 2 mana, Warren Instigator's out there so soon that the opponent might not even have a chump blocker out or removal online. And if you play Colossal Might or some other pump and they don't have removal, they can pretty much pack up.
Edit: At previous poster - Goblin Lackey is pretty much a broken card. Your card would allow two triggers of the Lackey ability as soon as turn 3, potentially dropping 2 Siege-Gang Commanders or the like. And that combo would be available in Standard.
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Commander R Ashling, the Pilgrim Mono Red Wildfire Control GBW Karador, Ghost Chieftain Abzan Dredge Rock WBR Tariel, Reckoner of Souls Mardu Aggro-Reanimator Midrange
Gi will most likeyly be a 1/2 when it atks it gets +2+0 so it wont be broken but still very stong and worth of mythic. and its also very red flavorful. aka atk every turn and "who needs blockers"
also Wall of Denial can take care of it
5 mana =/= 2 mana. At 5 mana, there are a TON of ways to respond, in most colors. At 2 mana, Warren Instigator's out there so soon that the opponent might not even have a chump blocker out or removal online. And if you play Colossal Might or some other pump and they don't have removal, they can pretty much pack up.
Isn't that what Red is supposed to do? It's there to aggro people out before they can set up their board. Now, I don't know what the exact balancing would be, but a strong aggro strategy would be nice to see once and awhile.
And really, I can't remember the last time a good deck couldn't get a creature out or a removal spell on turn 2. It would just get chumped or killed immediately.
Isn't that what Red is supposed to do? It's there to aggro people out before they can set up their board. Now, I don't know what the exact balancing would be, but a strong aggro strategy would be nice to see once and awhile.
And really, I can't remember the last time a good deck couldn't get a creature out or a removal spell on turn 2. It would just get chumped or killed immediately.
Red is supposed to get bad creatures. If you think things like Blood Knight and Boggart Ram-Gang are OK for mono-red, then I can't argue with you.
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Commander R Ashling, the Pilgrim Mono Red Wildfire Control GBW Karador, Ghost Chieftain Abzan Dredge Rock WBR Tariel, Reckoner of Souls Mardu Aggro-Reanimator Midrange
5 mana =/= 2 mana. At 5 mana, there are a TON of ways to respond, in most colors. At 2 mana, Warren Instigator's out there so soon that the opponent might not even have a chump blocker out or removal online. And if you play Colossal Might or some other pump and they don't have removal, they can pretty much pack up.
Edit: At previous poster - Goblin Lackey is pretty much a broken card. Your card would allow two triggers of the Lackey ability as soon as turn 3, potentially dropping 2 Siege-Gang Commanders or the like. And that combo would be available in Standard.
Yes, it's redunkulous, but let's consider the facts:
Red just got back BALL LIGHTNING and LIGHTNING BOLT and STILL isn't viable
We have more high-quality removal than EVER before in standard (doom blade, PtE, terminate, lightning bolt, maelstrom pulse)
There are 2 goblins in the format that are any more than sub-par - and only ONE of them sees any play currently
Wrath, is, in effect, back.
Lackey is still a LOT better, and really wasn't degenerate prior to the existence of SGC.
WotC is PUSHING creatures in standard and has been for some time.
There are at least five more reasons this is plausible, though admittedly unlikely.
and, realistically, you have like a 1 in 28 chance of drawing the super-lackey + SGCx2.
it's busty as hell, but it means that you'd NEED to play a focused goblin deck which isn't reasonably available (especially when you consider the quality of Red Elementals which will be available after rotation, for example).
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it's busty as hell, but it means that you'd NEED to play a focused goblin deck which isn't reasonably available (especially when you consider the quality of Red Elementals which will be available after rotation, for example).
yeah but you are forgetting about older formats...a card like that in legacy could bring goblins back...and no one wants that
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Yes, it's redunkulous, but let's consider the facts:
Red just got back BALL LIGHTNING and LIGHTNING BOLT and STILL isn't viable
We have more high-quality removal than EVER before in standard (doom blade, PtE, terminate, lightning bolt, maelstrom pulse)
There are 2 goblins in the format that are any more than sub-par - and only ONE of them sees any play currently
Wrath, is, in effect, back.
Lackey is still a LOT better, and really wasn't degenerate prior to the existence of SGC.
WotC is PUSHING creatures in standard and has been for some time.
There are at least five more reasons this is plausible, though admittedly unlikely.
and, realistically, you have like a 1 in 28 chance of drawing the super-lackey + SGCx2.
it's busty as hell, but it means that you'd NEED to play a focused goblin deck which isn't reasonably available (especially when you consider the quality of Red Elementals which will be available after rotation, for example).
The flaw in the end of this statement is that we have confirmation that Goblins will be a supported tribe in Zendikar block, and therefore this will not be the only Goblin. I don't think we'll see another SGC, but we could easily see another 5CC or so Goblin that would be broken with a double Lackey effect.
Heck, in Legacy, I'd get a kick out of someone dropping this and landing a hit, then plopping SGC and Skirk Fire Marshal down.
We're in a time in Magic with Volcanic Fallout, lightning bolt, doom blade, path to exile, and other instant speed removal. I don't think this is broken, but still very good.
On the other hand though, there would have been absolutely no ****ing way that red would EVER get a 2/2 double striker for 2 mana WITH BENEFITS 3-4 years ago.
It's a vicious cycle. Better creatures means you have to print better removal (PtE as well as brining back Terminate and Bolt), which in turn results in having to make even more powerful creatures to fight back against the higher efficiency answers.
As much as I love red, I hope it's not that card that you speculated. Power creep will destroy this game if it gets out of control.
On the other hand though, there would have been absolutely no ****ing way that red would EVER get a 2/2 double striker for 2 mana WITH BENEFITS 3-4 years ago.
That's funny to me because I was saying pretty much the same thing when I saw Blood Knight. WHAT? A 2 mana 2/2 in red WITH BENEFITS? And it doesn't even need anything else to give a boost? And then I looked at Goblin Piker and Grizzly Bears and sadfaced. I had deja vu in Shadowmoor with Ashenmoor Gouger and Boggart Ram-Gang. I miss real drawbacks.
Seriously folks, let's hope for something not broken. When everything's broken, it causes much more trouble for the game then good (see Urza's Saga, Mirrodin, recent unfairly easy manabases).
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Commander R Ashling, the Pilgrim Mono Red Wildfire Control GBW Karador, Ghost Chieftain Abzan Dredge Rock WBR Tariel, Reckoner of Souls Mardu Aggro-Reanimator Midrange
On the other hand though, there would have been absolutely no ****ing way that red would EVER get a 2/2 double striker for 2 mana WITH BENEFITS 3-4 years ago.
It's a vicious cycle. Better creatures means you have to print better removal (PtE as well as brining back Terminate and Bolt), which in turn results in having to make even more powerful creatures to fight back against the higher efficiency answers.
As much as I love red, I hope it's not that card that you speculated. Power creep will destroy this game if it gets out of control.
I think your middle paragraph is flawed. WotC makes better creatures (the real meat and potatoes of the game) as well as answers. There are still plenty of creatures that are tough to remove (Uri is one).
Again, with my shot in the dark.
RR
Doublestrike
3/1
Pte, Bolt, Terminate all take care of it.
My point being (and why I think your statement is flawed) its because of such good creatures and a superb aggro meta that we are given such powerful removal. It has nothing to do with power creep at all. I don't think we'll be seeing such high-powered creatures again for quite some time. As they say, the pendulum swings both ways...
Honestly, as much as Evan Erwin is clearly an awesome guy and is very entertaining, he has this reaction to alot of magic cards, many of which fail to achieve any real potential. When Rhox War Monk was spoiled, he couldn't stop talking about it. How much did that card impact anything? Yeah, you can get back to me on that one.
I'm kind of annoyed that a Mythic Rare has the name 'Warren Instigator'. That name belongs on an uncommon, it doesn't sound 'Mythic' at all. I mean honestly. We have the various planeswalkers as Mythic. And 'Empyrial Archangel'. Or 'Hellkite Overlord'. Those cards sound like Mythic Rares. And then there is..'Warren Instigator'. They really couldn't come up with anything better? Whatever, I digress.
I think people should wait to see the whole card before dropping 2 bills on a playset, that's all. That and wait to see if it is actually good, or, just appears good.
I absolutely agree here. Of all the people tossing their hat into the ring, Cyan is probably the most pragmatic. Its respectable.
I do not like the name "Warren Instigator" as a "Mythic" name. Unless this card has a Lure ability as well as doublestrike. In such a case I'll be fine. What really grinds my gears is (as Cyan says) it would be better as an uncommon. I really can't lay down cash for a card that is undeserving of its title.
My guess is it is a 2/1 in terms of power/toughness. I do think it has an ability though, because of the name Instigator, and because of the flavor text.
Why would a "Goblin Instigator" be a 3/1 double-strike for 2? Wrong name and wrong art for a creature that powerful.
I think your middle paragraph is flawed. WotC makes better creatures (the real meat and potatoes of the game) as well as answers. There are still plenty of creatures that are tough to remove (Uri is one).
You didn't seem to understand what I was saying. Because better creatures have been printed and their power level has increased, this means removal spells are forced to be more powerful as well.
Creatures trump answer cards. There are no bad threats, but there are bad answers. You will not always have answer spells in your hand at all times to stop everything. This is why "but creature X dies to removal!" has been, and never will be a valid argument.
We thought Lightning Bolt was not coming back into the game ever since it got yanked out a long time ago, and Wizards definately agreed that it was way too overpowered. Now they tested Bolt in M10 standard and they go "Hey it's not overpowered let's put it in!" It's because when Shock used to be a great staple removal spell for red years ago, today it no longer cuts the mustard. The reason? Creatures have become more powerful and now can easily resist old removal like Shock.
Again, with my shot in the dark.
RR
Doublestrike
3/1
Pte, Bolt, Terminate all take care of it.
This is quite possibly one of the worst reasons that could be made for justifying a card that ridiculously powerful.
Hell, with that logic, this card seems like fair game, right?
I die to removal spellsGG
Creature - Who cares
10/1
It still dies to Path, Bolt, Terminate, Doom Blade, and Fallout! That must mean it's fine! Sounds like a printable card to me!!! /sarcasm
My point being (and why I think your statement is flawed) its because of such good creatures and a superb aggro meta that we are given such powerful removal. It has nothing to do with power creep at all.
Except it IS power creep. It has been an unbelievably long time since creatures have been this powerful or this efficient. Red would have NEVER gotten cards like Figure of Destiny, Boggart Ram-Gang, and Blood Knight 4-5 years ago.
I don't think we'll be seeing such high-powered creatures again for quite some time. As they say, the pendulum swings both ways...
From the looks of things, this pendulum shows no sign of swinging back any time soon.
Warren Instigator RR
Creature - Goblin Berzerker (M)
Double Strike
When Warren Instigator [attacks/comes into play], search your library for a goblin card and put it into play [tapped and attacking/with haste]. Sacrifice it at end of turn.
1/2
If this is true its Tarmogoyf 2.0 and its a red goblin.
If my opponent is trading his best removal 1-for-1 with my 2 drops, I'm VERY much ahead. You sir, do not understand magic theory enough if you think that good removal means that low curving creatures can just break out of the curve. Good removal means creatures that cost 5+ with extraordinary abilities can be printed. Things like Baneslayer Angel are crazy cool but still prone to giving their caster a debilitating tempo loss. If I go turn 2 Warren Instigator and you Doom Blade/VF/whatever it, I'll just untap and go "ok, another?"
Understand the Tarmogoyf and you will understand the balance of aggressive creature design.
Commander
R Ashling, the Pilgrim Mono Red Wildfire Control
GBW Karador, Ghost Chieftain Abzan Dredge Rock
WBR Tariel, Reckoner of Souls Mardu Aggro-Reanimator Midrange
Would +1/+0 and the Instigator being a 1/1 be better?
a 5/5 flying first strike lifelink isnt broken
Warren Instigator RR
Creature - Goblin
Double Strike
Whenever Goblin Instigator deals damage to a player, you may put a goblin from your hand onto the battlefield.
"Danger, danger! Come out of the safety of your holes!"
1/1
this may or may not have been posited before...
new strategy articles every couple days and a bustling forum too!
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5 mana =/= 2 mana. At 5 mana, there are a TON of ways to respond, in most colors. At 2 mana, Warren Instigator's out there so soon that the opponent might not even have a chump blocker out or removal online. And if you play Colossal Might or some other pump and they don't have removal, they can pretty much pack up.
Edit: At previous poster - Goblin Lackey is pretty much a broken card. Your card would allow two triggers of the Lackey ability as soon as turn 3, potentially dropping 2 Siege-Gang Commanders or the like. And that combo would be available in Standard.
Commander
R Ashling, the Pilgrim Mono Red Wildfire Control
GBW Karador, Ghost Chieftain Abzan Dredge Rock
WBR Tariel, Reckoner of Souls Mardu Aggro-Reanimator Midrange
also Wall of Denial can take care of it
And really, I can't remember the last time a good deck couldn't get a creature out or a removal spell on turn 2. It would just get chumped or killed immediately.
Red is supposed to get bad creatures. If you think things like Blood Knight and Boggart Ram-Gang are OK for mono-red, then I can't argue with you.
Commander
R Ashling, the Pilgrim Mono Red Wildfire Control
GBW Karador, Ghost Chieftain Abzan Dredge Rock
WBR Tariel, Reckoner of Souls Mardu Aggro-Reanimator Midrange
Yes, it's redunkulous, but let's consider the facts:
There are at least five more reasons this is plausible, though admittedly unlikely.
and, realistically, you have like a 1 in 28 chance of drawing the super-lackey + SGCx2.
it's busty as hell, but it means that you'd NEED to play a focused goblin deck which isn't reasonably available (especially when you consider the quality of Red Elementals which will be available after rotation, for example).
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yeah but you are forgetting about older formats...a card like that in legacy could bring goblins back...and no one wants that
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N/A
Vintage
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EDH
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Pauper
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The flaw in the end of this statement is that we have confirmation that Goblins will be a supported tribe in Zendikar block, and therefore this will not be the only Goblin. I don't think we'll see another SGC, but we could easily see another 5CC or so Goblin that would be broken with a double Lackey effect.
Heck, in Legacy, I'd get a kick out of someone dropping this and landing a hit, then plopping SGC and Skirk Fire Marshal down.
On the other hand though, there would have been absolutely no ****ing way that red would EVER get a 2/2 double striker for 2 mana WITH BENEFITS 3-4 years ago.
It's a vicious cycle. Better creatures means you have to print better removal (PtE as well as brining back Terminate and Bolt), which in turn results in having to make even more powerful creatures to fight back against the higher efficiency answers.
As much as I love red, I hope it's not that card that you speculated. Power creep will destroy this game if it gets out of control.
That's funny to me because I was saying pretty much the same thing when I saw Blood Knight. WHAT? A 2 mana 2/2 in red WITH BENEFITS? And it doesn't even need anything else to give a boost? And then I looked at Goblin Piker and Grizzly Bears and sadfaced. I had deja vu in Shadowmoor with Ashenmoor Gouger and Boggart Ram-Gang. I miss real drawbacks.
Seriously folks, let's hope for something not broken. When everything's broken, it causes much more trouble for the game then good (see Urza's Saga, Mirrodin, recent unfairly easy manabases).
Commander
R Ashling, the Pilgrim Mono Red Wildfire Control
GBW Karador, Ghost Chieftain Abzan Dredge Rock
WBR Tariel, Reckoner of Souls Mardu Aggro-Reanimator Midrange
I think your middle paragraph is flawed. WotC makes better creatures (the real meat and potatoes of the game) as well as answers. There are still plenty of creatures that are tough to remove (Uri is one).
Again, with my shot in the dark.
RR
Doublestrike
3/1
Pte, Bolt, Terminate all take care of it.
My point being (and why I think your statement is flawed) its because of such good creatures and a superb aggro meta that we are given such powerful removal. It has nothing to do with power creep at all. I don't think we'll be seeing such high-powered creatures again for quite some time. As they say, the pendulum swings both ways...
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I absolutely agree here. Of all the people tossing their hat into the ring, Cyan is probably the most pragmatic. Its respectable.
I do not like the name "Warren Instigator" as a "Mythic" name. Unless this card has a Lure ability as well as doublestrike. In such a case I'll be fine. What really grinds my gears is (as Cyan says) it would be better as an uncommon. I really can't lay down cash for a card that is undeserving of its title.
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Why would a "Goblin Instigator" be a 3/1 double-strike for 2? Wrong name and wrong art for a creature that powerful.
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You didn't seem to understand what I was saying. Because better creatures have been printed and their power level has increased, this means removal spells are forced to be more powerful as well.
Creatures trump answer cards. There are no bad threats, but there are bad answers. You will not always have answer spells in your hand at all times to stop everything. This is why "but creature X dies to removal!" has been, and never will be a valid argument.
We thought Lightning Bolt was not coming back into the game ever since it got yanked out a long time ago, and Wizards definately agreed that it was way too overpowered. Now they tested Bolt in M10 standard and they go "Hey it's not overpowered let's put it in!" It's because when Shock used to be a great staple removal spell for red years ago, today it no longer cuts the mustard. The reason? Creatures have become more powerful and now can easily resist old removal like Shock.
This is quite possibly one of the worst reasons that could be made for justifying a card that ridiculously powerful.
Hell, with that logic, this card seems like fair game, right?
I die to removal spells GG
Creature - Who cares
10/1
It still dies to Path, Bolt, Terminate, Doom Blade, and Fallout! That must mean it's fine! Sounds like a printable card to me!!! /sarcasm
Except it IS power creep. It has been an unbelievably long time since creatures have been this powerful or this efficient. Red would have NEVER gotten cards like Figure of Destiny, Boggart Ram-Gang, and Blood Knight 4-5 years ago.
From the looks of things, this pendulum shows no sign of swinging back any time soon.
Warren Instigator RR
Creature - Goblin Berzerker (M)
Double Strike
When Warren Instigator [attacks/comes into play], search your library for a goblin card and put it into play [tapped and attacking/with haste]. Sacrifice it at end of turn.
1/2
Try going for a Lure-type effect.
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How does the presence of a good CIP ability eliminate a put-into-play ability? If anything, it improves the idea for strong synergy.
And since when did Red get Lure effects? Just because it's mythic doesn't mean it breaks the color pie.
RR
Double Strike
Goblin creatures you control attack each turn if able
2/1
That seems to be instigating to me.
As a Mythic? I doubt it.
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