So, Mirran is at preorder on SCG at $2.49, Phyrexian is on preorder at $2.99. Obviously Ben Bleiweiss has decided to come down in favor of the infector. I'm not so quick to agree. I'd like to see what the community here has to say.
Removal:
Mirran is vulnerable to burn and being bounced by Jace.
Phyrexian is vulnerable to Smother, Grasp of Darkness, Consume the Meek, and being bounced by Jace.
Combat:
Mirran kills any Vampire he fights. With a single point of power pump (see below) he kills Green Giant and doesn't die there either (though his controller might get stepped on for 3 or 4, and Valakut may still fry him...). Mirran also blocks and kills Elves for several turns (until they get big enough through lord pumps to ignore him). Black Knight still gets past him and if anyone runs Bloodwitch he can't do much about her. He can become indestructible.
Phyrexian kills anything he fights in RDW. He blocks mountains all day and swings through into Koth. He blocks any white weenie on the ground except Mirran or White Knight, and kills all of them except a fully leveled Student. He swings past Walls of Omens and Soldiers as if they aren't there. He blocks Gideon, though he still can't hurt him (he can -2 him on the attack, though, and can't be assassinated by the white walker). With some power pump Phyrexian is also a fairly rapid clock, though he sadly is immune to Assault Strobe.
Support:
Mirran Crusader has Knight Exemplar, offering +1/+1 and indestructibility. Indestructibility shores up Mirran's one remaining weakness, red burn. With that taken care of, Mirran only has to fear Condemn etc.
Phyrexian Crusader has Hand of the Praetors, offering +1/+1.
Overall, I'm still leaning towards Mirran in a heavily knight-based deck. Infect at the moment seems to be a bit schizo, with most of its cards begging to be put in a lightning-fast aggro strategy and a few (Hand, Phyr Crusader, Clasp / Engine) begging to be put in a slow, grinding, inevitability-based aggro control type strategy. If MBS prints more cards suitable for the slow, grinding build, then I could definitely get behind the Phyrexian Crusader. At the moment though, I don't think he fundamentally speeds up the Infect deck by much. I suppose you can replace Cystbearer with him and you're a bit more evasive.
Compare to Mirran in a Knight based deck: he can gain indestructibility, and he has two sources of +1/+1 pumps (Knight Exemplar and Honor of the Pure); all I can say is that +1/+1 seems more effective when put on a double striker. And lo and behold, the Knight Deck already has a double striker available - fully leveled Student. Combine with Goldmane for +1/+1 counters and you have a real machine capable of swinging with a 3/3 Mirran Crusader on turn 4 fairly reliably, possibly even 4/4. This puts black and green decks on a murderously short clock and could be very bad for red decks caught without a bolt, as well.
So I lean towards the Mirran. I'm curious to hear others' thoughts, though!
What is more likely to see play: Infect with black, or "Knights".
Mirran Crusader (MC) is good for White Wheenie, but I don't think that archetype is currently strong. In Knights, there would be Exemplar and Student, and that's about it. At the moment. The protection of MC is okay.
Phyrexian Crusader is good for Infect, which will be getting cards for sure in MBS - in contrary to Knights. Plus, there already are some extremely strong infect cards like Groundswell and Vines of Vastwood and ofc Hands (what's even better is invigorate for pauper, but that's like a secret tech...). Besides, the PhyrC is a phenomenal Aggro-hoser bc of the mix of infect and first strike. I think it will take some time until people realize how godlike that combination actually is. Therefore, he will see play in sb in non-infect decks, most likely control. Its prored and prowhite is very relevant.
The current prices are a gamble on how MBS will turn out. Seems like some people think infect and UB control will be strong.
Personally, I think Phyrexian Crusader is better because of infect+first strike and the current cards. If there where more Knights, I'd lean towards Mirran. And I think he'll gain value after Zendikar rotates - especially while m11 is still in. I'm curious what happens when we have Mirrodin 2.0 + m12 + NextSet, though. Aggro decks tend to take over the decks to beat for a short time, and that will be the point when the real fight between WW and Poison begins.
What is more likely to see play: Infect with black, or "Knights".
Exactly. Both cards are good cards looking for a home. My concern is that we don't know yet whether post-MBS Infect will remain a speed-aggro strategy (in which case Crusader is only a marginal upgrade to your 3-drop slot, seeing as how it's more evasive but less splashable than Cystbearer), or whether Infect will become a sort of aggro-control strategy in which I feel the Crusader would be far stronger.
Mirran Crusader (MC) is good for White Wheenie, but I don't think that archetype is currently strong. In Knights, there would be Exemplar and Student, and that's about it.
I'd like to introduce you to a card from Alpha, my good old friend White Knight. First strike is still good against red and pro: black is still good overall. With indestructibility he's hard to get rid of. It's true that there aren't a ton more, though. There's Kemba's Skyguard and Cloud Crusader that fly, and some probably-unplayable leveler trash. But I'm not ruling out the possibility of some decent enemy-color fixing in MBS (wedge trilands, WotC? pleeeeeeease? ^__^), which would allow for a deck combining both Crusaders in one! And Arrogant Bloodlord would go GREAT with Knight Exemplar!
(snip)
Besides, the PhyrC is a phenomenal Aggro-hoser bc of the mix of infect and first strike. I think it will take some time until people realize how godlike that combination actually is. Therefore, he will see play in sb in non-infect decks, most likely control. Its prored and prowhite is very relevant.
The current prices are a gamble on how MBS will turn out. Seems like some people think infect and UB control will be strong.
Personally, I think Phyrexian Crusader is better because of infect+first strike and the current cards. If there where more Knights, I'd lean towards Mirran. And I think he'll gain value after Zendikar rotates - especially while m11 is still in. I'm curious what happens when we have Mirrodin 2.0 + m12 + NextSet, though. Aggro decks tend to take over the decks to beat for a short time, and that will be the point when the real fight between WW and Poison begins.
The Phyrexian will be be a game winner because of Sword of Body and Mind.
Protection from White, Blue, Red and Green PLUS you're black so no targeting from half of the black removal spells.
SoBaM is good on it's own to boost recursionary creatures (reassemblying skeleton and a certain vampire) found in black.
Seems nice, but what's wrong with SoBaM on a Mirran Crusader? Sure, one of the protections is overlapping but pro BUG still gets past 3/5 of the creatures in the game, hits for 8 (!), then mills 20 and makes 2 wolves. Double strike has never been this cheap or evasive!
Edit: note that Grasp and Smother will both still kill a Phyrexian Crusader with SoBaM equipped.
- White Knight: Sadly, he is not as good as he was in Alpha. The power level of other creatures increases from set to set, while he stays the same. It's a shame.
- SoBaM: I can't decide who's the worthy bearer of that equipment.
Not awful, not jank, not unuseable- but not whatsoever worth hype. The white one falls into the notorious white 3 CMC slot, 1WW no less to make splashing impossible. White didn't run transcendent master despite him being made of sunshine and kickassipops. What makes people think they'll run yet another 'above the curve' weenie in the same slot? White loves its 5 CMC finishers and 2 CMC weenies- 3 just tends to get left out. Unless its going to have some immediate effect on the board or generate some card advantage, he really doesn't break any new power level ground and can't convince people to run him.
The black knight is tied directly to infect archetype. Isn't that enough said? Hes unusable outside of infect, and infect is unusable, and all signs point to infect remaining unusable. He can be as aggressive as he wants in a vacuum, but unless the other infect cards exist which currently do not- he'll be worthless.
Its a bit of a waste getting pro-blue on him since he already has the pro-green. And it still doesn't save him from spotremoval, which was already the huge issues with 3-drops in white. So eh, seeing as both the 2/2 token and 10 mill would be rather pointless (ok, maybe for chump blocking in a race its nice) but TBH I'd rather just equip a darksteel axe
But yeah, its still not very much what constructed wants. 3 CMC nonsplashable is too tricky a slot
all signs point to infect remaining unusable. He can be as aggressive as he wants in a vacuum, but unless the other infect cards exist which currently do not- he'll be worthless.
Which signs point to infect remaining unusable? Four cards have been spoiled...
So eh, seeing as both the 2/2 token and 10 mill would be rather pointless (ok, maybe for chump blocking in a race its nice) but TBH I'd rather just equip a darksteel axe
I'm sorry - you mean the TWO 2/2 tokens and the 20 mill, right? Two hits of that vs. a Jace deck and they might not be able to find a finisher and win before milling out, even if they do have a DoJ left in their deck and find it in time.
But yeah, its still not very much what constructed wants. 3 CMC nonsplashable is too tricky a slot
I'm not even sure we need SoBaM to make him good. Even a simple Adventuring Gear makes him capable of killing every Titan and Man-Land in Standard, and living through the fight with Grave and Primeval. And Basilisk Collar is no joke on a double strike creature, either. I'm thinking t1 Student, t2 either level your Student, drop an Honor, or drop Stoneforge to go get an equip, t3 this guy. Right now, sure that does seem a little slow but who knows what else could be coming along?
Mirran puts the opponent as near to death as phyrexian with each strike, but benefits from boosts much better. It is also compatible with much more play styles, when Phyrexian needs infect to be played.
These were my thoughts exactly, only you expressed it so much more clearly.
@Skittles: Indeed, but since they are terribly afraid to make anything near overpowered in THIS mirrodin block, I wouldn't put your hopes too high if I were you. You know what happens when WotC make their mea culpa about power creep and enter paranoid-land.
Agreed. And yet: an (effective) 4/2 for 3? I'm not so much worried about Power Creep as I am that any standards for what the "power curve" for creatures was has been left behind and forgotten. :\
I'm sorry - you mean the TWO 2/2 tokens and the 20 mill, right? Two hits of that vs. a Jace deck and they might not be able to find a finisher and win before milling out, even if they do have a DoJ left in their deck and find it in time.
I'm not even sure we need SoBaM to make him good. Even a simple Adventuring Gear makes him capable of killing every Titan and Man-Land in Standard, and living through the fight with Grave and Primeval. And Basilisk Collar is no joke on a double strike creature, either. I'm thinking t1 Student, t2 either level your Student, drop an Honor, or drop Stoneforge to go get an equip, t3 this guy. Right now, sure that does seem a little slow but who knows what else could be coming along?
Yeah two 2/2 tokens and 20 mill- but also 8 damage to the dome which already kills them in 2-3 hits, 2 if you already has some aggro elements to deal with them and the tokens connecting. But beyond the question of "is that worth the price tag" and "aren't there cheaper, more efficient equipments", it really doesn't address the issue of 1WW being a dang brutal requirement. UW wouldn't want to run him, WW wouldn't want more than 2 of him at the most. Its not a very commanding mana slot
When you get into card comparisons like "an adventuring gear lets him trade with or even kill a titan" or basic collar or so on- why not just a oust or doom blade or journey to nowhere? Why triple-context answers that need not just your creature out and equipment out but also a fetchland to crack- and your enemy to either attack into an obvious board or decided its worth blocking it? Thats not solid deck design.
Yeah if theres notable good equipments a fairly cheap double striker could be good- but why not a kor duelist? :S. Thats how you end up in the WWQ archetype- and again, the mana cost is forbidding. Sword barely goes beyond what a darksteel axe for half the price would do in this situation since most of its effects would be redundant.
Like most cards held up to a competitive lens, its something that will be held back by its rather unwieldy mana cost. Its just not good to drop a 1WW card that will die to a R card in this metagame without doing anything. Bad card? Certainly not. But expect it to have a similar fate to transcendent master.
I think its pretty clear the Mirran Crusader won't make it into decks as an all-star, maybe in some obscure and rare roles in aggro but certainly not popular. Again, the phyrexian depends entirely on infect. If infect by some odd stroke of fate ended up being dominant and heavily played (it won't), this guy would definitely be on the deck list. Mind thats such a remote chance. Now in that tangent universe yeah maybe it could command a $5-10 pricetag, but barring any complete turnaround by wizards that simply won't happen
As soon as he came out, I thought that WW Haterator would be able to make a resurgence. However, that deck was a meta call against the resurgence of RDW and the ever constant powerhouse that was Jund.
I think its pretty clear the Mirran Crusader won't make it into decks as an all-star, maybe in some obscure and rare roles in aggro but certainly not popular. Again, the phyrexian depends entirely on infect. If infect by some odd stroke of fate ended up being dominant and heavily played (it won't), this guy would definitely be on the deck list. Mind thats such a remote chance. Now in that tangent universe yeah maybe it could command a $5-10 pricetag, but barring any complete turnaround by wizards that simply won't happen
So in a vacuum you can accept phyrex crusader being more playable than Mirran but you say it wont because you believe infect will not become a viable deck strategy...?
the Thread name asks whether mirran or phyrex crusader. Not sure whether youre asking which is better or worse, more playable less playable, has better support less support, but your OP has a clear bias towards one making this thread somewhat a troll if not flint to start a flame war.
you should probably wait till the set is out to ask such questions as cards that support either is more than probable to come out.
On another note, you must be in serious denial if you believe poison will not become any better over the next year. HALF of this set is supposed to represent phyrexia. Meaning somewhere near idk, maybe something like... HALF of this set will interact with or support poison. Unless poison is going to be evergreen, i see no reason for R&D to not push a T1 infect list (Especially with MaRo wanting it back so badly).
Skill is an ability that relates more so to the type of deck that's built and how said player pilots it. It also relates to the ability to assess the board and use the cards available to you in the most optimal way relative to each situation.
When a deck is filled with above par cards and every play is solid, there comes a diminishing need to "think" for the lack of wanting to use a better word.
Yeah two 2/2 tokens and 20 mill- but also 8 damage to the dome which already kills them in 2-3 hits, 2 if you already has some aggro elements to deal with them and the tokens connecting. But beyond the question of "is that worth the price tag" and "aren't there cheaper, more efficient equipments", it really doesn't address the issue of 1WW being a dang brutal requirement. UW wouldn't want to run him, WW wouldn't want more than 2 of him at the most. Its not a very commanding mana slot
When you get into card comparisons like "an adventuring gear lets him trade with or even kill a titan" or basic collar or so on- why not just a oust or doom blade or journey to nowhere? Why triple-context answers that need not just your creature out and equipment out but also a fetchland to crack- and your enemy to either attack into an obvious board or decided its worth blocking it? Thats not solid deck design.
Yeah if theres notable good equipments a fairly cheap double striker could be good- but why not a kor duelist? :S. Thats how you end up in the WWQ archetype- and again, the mana cost is forbidding. Sword barely goes beyond what a darksteel axe for half the price would do in this situation since most of its effects would be redundant.
Like most cards held up to a competitive lens, its something that will be held back by its rather unwieldy mana cost. Its just not good to drop a 1WW card that will die to a R card in this metagame without doing anything. Bad card? Certainly not. But expect it to have a similar fate to transcendent master.
Transcendent Master had 2 things going against it that Mirran Crusader doesn't.
1: He requires an additional mana investment after the initial 1WW
2: He has no protection or evasion. Yes, Mirran Crusader falls to Lightning Bolt, but he also dodges Doom Blade and swings past, or blocks, anything black or green. Transcendent Master, not so much.
Therefore, they are not at ALL similar. They COULD have the same fate, but with those two huge differences, I doubt it.
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T2:
UR Ascension
Mono-U Birthing Pod
This is great news. First the McRib now Time Spiral!
As soon as he came out, I thought that WW Haterator would be able to make a resurgence. However, that deck was a meta call against the resurgence of RDW and the ever constant powerhouse that was Jund.
Doesn't seem too too bad. I know I'm gonna try it out.
There is a lot of double strike and first strike in here to not have a Basilisk Collar.
Scratch that.
There is a lot of Stoneforge Mystic in here to not have at least 1 Basilisk Collar.
I think the Mirrian Crusader is being underestimated. He blocks Grave and Primeval Titan, avoids black removal, plows through Wall of Omens, Makes elves cry, and is an overall solid card.
Like many people are mentioning, he may just not have a deck to fit into. But as long as UB keeps dominating, this guy will see play. Hell, I'm about to start playtesting him as a MD option in my UW control. I've been looking for something sturdy, strong enough to survive against aggro, and still give control a run for it's money. This may be the guy.
Knight.dec fails because of this simply. It's clunky. 3cmc slot will be flooded with those 'good' knights. the deck has no CA and promotes overextension with a plethora of midgame drops. that's either too slow or weak realistically for comp.
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~Intelligence is Bliss; Ignorance is Denial.
Skill is an ability that relates more so to the type of deck that's built and how said player pilots it. It also relates to the ability to assess the board and use the cards available to you in the most optimal way relative to each situation.
When a deck is filled with above par cards and every play is solid, there comes a diminishing need to "think" for the lack of wanting to use a better word.
Yeah, that was in no way a well thought out list, Grease. Just threw that together in less than 3 minutes. More of a, "Ooh, that's shiny. Lets run that," idea.
I'm sure with a little more deliberation, it could work. Heck, it doesn't even have Squadron Hawk in there, and that's looking to be an excellent creature to hold any equipment.
I think Phyrexian is a bit better, not simply because of 'Lawl infect' but because it is an excellent tool for a possible Mono-black Control deck. Remember, to kill the Phyrexian, you're going to need at least a 4/4, since infect will come down before the other creature deals damage.
Edit: Crusader has issues with Jura's +2 ability, but it's going to (eventually) be able to actually kill the 6/6 Indestructable, thanks to infect and pro white. The lack of flying is definitely an issue though.
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Cyme we inne frið, fram the grip of deaþ to lif inne ðis smylte land.
I think Phyrexian is a bit better, not simply because of 'Lawl infect' but because it is an excellent tool for a possible Mono-black Control deck. Remember, to kill the Phyrexian, you're going to need at least a 4/4, since infect will come down before the other creature deals damage.
Well, at least a 4/3, or a first-striking 2/x.
Edit: Crusader has issues with Jura's +2 ability, but it's going to (eventually) be able to actually kill the 6/6 Indestructable, thanks to infect and pro white. The lack of flying is definitely an issue though.
No, infect only dishes out poison counters if the damage is dealt. While Gideon is a creature he has "prevent all damage that would be dealt" to him. Since the damage is being prevented in the first place, it can't be dealt as poison counters either. Sorry, but PC doesn't kill Gideon any more than a deathtoucher.
Edit: wait, did you mean swinging into Gideon? Well, yeah, that'll work just fine, if Gideon's BFF Jace 2 isn't around to send the PC home.
OK, seriously. Hero of Bladehold, 7 power swinging for 4 mana, and another Knight. We are approaching a critical mass of playables. This can only make Mirran even better because it will make people look more and more at Knight Exemplar as a card worth running.
'Dies to bolt' is such a terrible argument against the Mirran Crusader, considering every deck that would pack him will have a very high threat density and your opponent will just as likely blow that bolt on another threat.
He swings for 4, has two relevant protections and is sick with any pump effects. That doesn't warrant he will feature in a tier 1 deck unless he has decent support, but he will be played and he will be good.
The irony of how imbalanced things turn out to be when attempting to balance cards.
There's clearly an obvious statement being made here.
I'd be surprised if Poison doesnt hit legacy hard after infecters like him hit the board w/ Invigorate support.
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~Intelligence is Bliss; Ignorance is Denial.
Skill is an ability that relates more so to the type of deck that's built and how said player pilots it. It also relates to the ability to assess the board and use the cards available to you in the most optimal way relative to each situation.
When a deck is filled with above par cards and every play is solid, there comes a diminishing need to "think" for the lack of wanting to use a better word.
I think people are underestimating the value of Mirran Crusader in Legacy. It ends the game in 2 turns if it's swinging either Sword of Fire and Ice (which also gives it 4 protections and draws you 2 cards per combat) or Umezawa's Jitte (it can deal 24 in 2 turns!). And it's right on curve ... T1 Mother of Runes, T2 Stoneforge Mystic, T3 Mirran Crusader, T4 Mystic drops SoFI, equip to Crusader, you probably win that game right there. Make it U/W and play Jace/FoW/Daze and you'd be looking at a LOT of card value and consistency.
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Thanks to Gabgabdevo for the awesome sig image!
I'm always looking for foil Madcap Skills and Ghitu Fire-Eater, [trade thread link forthcoming]
I appreciate the idea, but I find it difficult to compare pears to apples. Though marketed as representatives of the two factions, for constructed play they will just be another two cards fit for very different strategies. You could go to great lengths to try and compare power levels, but what will really decide the fate of either of these cards is to what extent they will find a home.
Exactly. Similar casting costs and similar P/T mean nothing. As a matter of fact, a 2/2 white creature is generally much better than a 2/2 black creature (why? white pumps its creatures more often). But a 2/2 black creature is more survivable than a 2/2 white creature (since black creatures typically dodge black removal). You can't do a straight compare. I was asking more about the issue you raise: where will these cards find a home, and will those decks be top tier?
Right now I still see preorders for P-Crusader higher than M-Crusader despite the fact that spoilers show WotC is pushing a mono-white tribal Knights deck about as hard as they pushed mono-black tribal Vampires with the printing of ZEN block. I remember picking up my playset of Nocturnuses at $2 each and trading them at $20 each... I doubt M-Crusader will ever go that high (I see it peaking around $7 if the deck is Tier 1, and it will definitely need a few more good cards for that to happen), but I still think $2.50 is almost criminally low and I can't wait to make a killing on them. M-Crusader should have the following flavor text: "Hi guys, don't forget I'm a double striker in the color that specializes in handing out +1/+1's like candy; that tends to be awesome!"
Compare to P-Crusader, which is higher value simply based, as far as I can tell, on hype. Sure, it seems strong in isolation, but is there a deck that will run it? Comparing the three-drop spot in a generic mono-B control archetype it's competing with Nighthawk and Gatekeeper. So is this better than a Nighthawk in that archetype? I think the answer is "no" because it doesn't do as many things as a Nighthawk. It's really hard to kill, but it can't hold off flyers and Jace still makes it go poof, so it doesn't seem like a superior line of defense against Jace-based control decks. Its creature-killing power seems likely to be reduced by the fact that it won't often be blocked. So then the question is, "does this card have a home in Infect?", to which the answer is, "not yet". Infect is still a turbo archetype based on proceeding immediately to endgame and killing the opponent before they can enter Phase Two. The deck doesn't have room for or really need more three drops. So I suppose it replaces Cystbearer (at least in non-budget builds), but the deck will still need green for pump (unless we get a reprint of Howl From Beyond... now how cool would that be? So the deck still needs to hit green mana without (as yet) enemy dual or filter lands... can you fit 1BB alongside XG comfortably, in a deck that wants to kill on turn 4? Probably. I suppose the card will be an upgrade over Cystbearer but it certainly doesn't break the deck open or put it into Tier 1. As I've said before, I strongly suspect MBS will release enough quality, slower infect creatures that we may finally see a grinding, infect / proliferate control deck gain Standard relevance, in which case this card will find a true home.
anyone else think the Mirran Crusader goes very well with Sun Titan? Sun titan needed good 3 cmc things to res and mirran crusaders/knight exemplars are the perfect targets.
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Mirran Crusader at SCG
Phyrexian Crusader at SCG
My opinions are related to a few categories.
Removal:
Mirran is vulnerable to burn and being bounced by Jace.
Phyrexian is vulnerable to Smother, Grasp of Darkness, Consume the Meek, and being bounced by Jace.
Combat:
Mirran kills any Vampire he fights. With a single point of power pump (see below) he kills Green Giant and doesn't die there either (though his controller might get stepped on for 3 or 4, and Valakut may still fry him...). Mirran also blocks and kills Elves for several turns (until they get big enough through lord pumps to ignore him). Black Knight still gets past him and if anyone runs Bloodwitch he can't do much about her. He can become indestructible.
Phyrexian kills anything he fights in RDW. He blocks mountains all day and swings through into Koth. He blocks any white weenie on the ground except Mirran or White Knight, and kills all of them except a fully leveled Student. He swings past Walls of Omens and Soldiers as if they aren't there. He blocks Gideon, though he still can't hurt him (he can -2 him on the attack, though, and can't be assassinated by the white walker). With some power pump Phyrexian is also a fairly rapid clock, though he sadly is immune to Assault Strobe.
Support:
Mirran Crusader has Knight Exemplar, offering +1/+1 and indestructibility. Indestructibility shores up Mirran's one remaining weakness, red burn. With that taken care of, Mirran only has to fear Condemn etc.
Phyrexian Crusader has Hand of the Praetors, offering +1/+1.
Overall, I'm still leaning towards Mirran in a heavily knight-based deck. Infect at the moment seems to be a bit schizo, with most of its cards begging to be put in a lightning-fast aggro strategy and a few (Hand, Phyr Crusader, Clasp / Engine) begging to be put in a slow, grinding, inevitability-based aggro control type strategy. If MBS prints more cards suitable for the slow, grinding build, then I could definitely get behind the Phyrexian Crusader. At the moment though, I don't think he fundamentally speeds up the Infect deck by much. I suppose you can replace Cystbearer with him and you're a bit more evasive.
Compare to Mirran in a Knight based deck: he can gain indestructibility, and he has two sources of +1/+1 pumps (Knight Exemplar and Honor of the Pure); all I can say is that +1/+1 seems more effective when put on a double striker. And lo and behold, the Knight Deck already has a double striker available - fully leveled Student. Combine with Goldmane for +1/+1 counters and you have a real machine capable of swinging with a 3/3 Mirran Crusader on turn 4 fairly reliably, possibly even 4/4. This puts black and green decks on a murderously short clock and could be very bad for red decks caught without a bolt, as well.
So I lean towards the Mirran. I'm curious to hear others' thoughts, though!
--Kurt Vonnegut, Jr., who is up in Heaven now. EDH WUBRG Child of Alara WUBRG BGW Karador, Ghost Chieftain BGW RGW Mayael the Anima RGW WUB Sharuum the Hegemon WUB RWU Zedruu the Greathearted RWU
WB Ghost Council of Orzhova WB RG Ulasht, the Hate Seed RG B Korlash, Heir to Blackblade B G Molimo, Maro-Sorcerer G *click the general's name to see my list!*
What is more likely to see play: Infect with black, or "Knights".
Mirran Crusader (MC) is good for White Wheenie, but I don't think that archetype is currently strong. In Knights, there would be Exemplar and Student, and that's about it. At the moment. The protection of MC is okay.
Phyrexian Crusader is good for Infect, which will be getting cards for sure in MBS - in contrary to Knights. Plus, there already are some extremely strong infect cards like Groundswell and Vines of Vastwood and ofc Hands (what's even better is invigorate for pauper, but that's like a secret tech...). Besides, the PhyrC is a phenomenal Aggro-hoser bc of the mix of infect and first strike. I think it will take some time until people realize how godlike that combination actually is. Therefore, he will see play in sb in non-infect decks, most likely control. Its prored and prowhite is very relevant.
The current prices are a gamble on how MBS will turn out. Seems like some people think infect and UB control will be strong.
Personally, I think Phyrexian Crusader is better because of infect+first strike and the current cards. If there where more Knights, I'd lean towards Mirran. And I think he'll gain value after Zendikar rotates - especially while m11 is still in. I'm curious what happens when we have Mirrodin 2.0 + m12 + NextSet, though. Aggro decks tend to take over the decks to beat for a short time, and that will be the point when the real fight between WW and Poison begins.
Exactly. Both cards are good cards looking for a home. My concern is that we don't know yet whether post-MBS Infect will remain a speed-aggro strategy (in which case Crusader is only a marginal upgrade to your 3-drop slot, seeing as how it's more evasive but less splashable than Cystbearer), or whether Infect will become a sort of aggro-control strategy in which I feel the Crusader would be far stronger.
I'd like to introduce you to a card from Alpha, my good old friend White Knight. First strike is still good against red and pro: black is still good overall. With indestructibility he's hard to get rid of. It's true that there aren't a ton more, though. There's Kemba's Skyguard and Cloud Crusader that fly, and some probably-unplayable leveler trash. But I'm not ruling out the possibility of some decent enemy-color fixing in MBS (wedge trilands, WotC? pleeeeeeease? ^__^), which would allow for a deck combining both Crusaders in one! And Arrogant Bloodlord would go GREAT with Knight Exemplar!
(snip)
Good points all!
Seems nice, but what's wrong with SoBaM on a Mirran Crusader? Sure, one of the protections is overlapping but pro BUG still gets past 3/5 of the creatures in the game, hits for 8 (!), then mills 20 and makes 2 wolves. Double strike has never been this cheap or evasive!
Edit: note that Grasp and Smother will both still kill a Phyrexian Crusader with SoBaM equipped.
--Kurt Vonnegut, Jr., who is up in Heaven now. EDH WUBRG Child of Alara WUBRG BGW Karador, Ghost Chieftain BGW RGW Mayael the Anima RGW WUB Sharuum the Hegemon WUB RWU Zedruu the Greathearted RWU
WB Ghost Council of Orzhova WB RG Ulasht, the Hate Seed RG B Korlash, Heir to Blackblade B G Molimo, Maro-Sorcerer G *click the general's name to see my list!*
- White Knight: Sadly, he is not as good as he was in Alpha. The power level of other creatures increases from set to set, while he stays the same. It's a shame.
- SoBaM: I can't decide who's the worthy bearer of that equipment.
Both are bad.
Not awful, not jank, not unuseable- but not whatsoever worth hype. The white one falls into the notorious white 3 CMC slot, 1WW no less to make splashing impossible. White didn't run transcendent master despite him being made of sunshine and kickassipops. What makes people think they'll run yet another 'above the curve' weenie in the same slot? White loves its 5 CMC finishers and 2 CMC weenies- 3 just tends to get left out. Unless its going to have some immediate effect on the board or generate some card advantage, he really doesn't break any new power level ground and can't convince people to run him.
The black knight is tied directly to infect archetype. Isn't that enough said? Hes unusable outside of infect, and infect is unusable, and all signs point to infect remaining unusable. He can be as aggressive as he wants in a vacuum, but unless the other infect cards exist which currently do not- he'll be worthless.
But yeah, its still not very much what constructed wants. 3 CMC nonsplashable is too tricky a slot
Which signs point to infect remaining unusable? Four cards have been spoiled...
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I'm sorry - you mean the TWO 2/2 tokens and the 20 mill, right? Two hits of that vs. a Jace deck and they might not be able to find a finisher and win before milling out, even if they do have a DoJ left in their deck and find it in time.
I'm not even sure we need SoBaM to make him good. Even a simple Adventuring Gear makes him capable of killing every Titan and Man-Land in Standard, and living through the fight with Grave and Primeval. And Basilisk Collar is no joke on a double strike creature, either. I'm thinking t1 Student, t2 either level your Student, drop an Honor, or drop Stoneforge to go get an equip, t3 this guy. Right now, sure that does seem a little slow but who knows what else could be coming along?
These were my thoughts exactly, only you expressed it so much more clearly.
Agreed. And yet: an (effective) 4/2 for 3? I'm not so much worried about Power Creep as I am that any standards for what the "power curve" for creatures was has been left behind and forgotten. :\
--Kurt Vonnegut, Jr., who is up in Heaven now. EDH WUBRG Child of Alara WUBRG BGW Karador, Ghost Chieftain BGW RGW Mayael the Anima RGW WUB Sharuum the Hegemon WUB RWU Zedruu the Greathearted RWU
WB Ghost Council of Orzhova WB RG Ulasht, the Hate Seed RG B Korlash, Heir to Blackblade B G Molimo, Maro-Sorcerer G *click the general's name to see my list!*
Yeah two 2/2 tokens and 20 mill- but also 8 damage to the dome which already kills them in 2-3 hits, 2 if you already has some aggro elements to deal with them and the tokens connecting. But beyond the question of "is that worth the price tag" and "aren't there cheaper, more efficient equipments", it really doesn't address the issue of 1WW being a dang brutal requirement. UW wouldn't want to run him, WW wouldn't want more than 2 of him at the most. Its not a very commanding mana slot
When you get into card comparisons like "an adventuring gear lets him trade with or even kill a titan" or basic collar or so on- why not just a oust or doom blade or journey to nowhere? Why triple-context answers that need not just your creature out and equipment out but also a fetchland to crack- and your enemy to either attack into an obvious board or decided its worth blocking it? Thats not solid deck design.
Yeah if theres notable good equipments a fairly cheap double striker could be good- but why not a kor duelist? :S. Thats how you end up in the WWQ archetype- and again, the mana cost is forbidding. Sword barely goes beyond what a darksteel axe for half the price would do in this situation since most of its effects would be redundant.
Like most cards held up to a competitive lens, its something that will be held back by its rather unwieldy mana cost. Its just not good to drop a 1WW card that will die to a R card in this metagame without doing anything. Bad card? Certainly not. But expect it to have a similar fate to transcendent master.
But hey, a decklist like:
4 Kor Duelist
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Kor Firewalker
4 White Knight
4 Mirran Crusader
1 Sword of Body and Mind
1 NEW SWORD
4 Journey to Nowhere
Doesn't seem too too bad. I know I'm gonna try it out.
So in a vacuum you can accept phyrex crusader being more playable than Mirran but you say it wont because you believe infect will not become a viable deck strategy...?
the Thread name asks whether mirran or phyrex crusader. Not sure whether youre asking which is better or worse, more playable less playable, has better support less support, but your OP has a clear bias towards one making this thread somewhat a troll if not flint to start a flame war.
you should probably wait till the set is out to ask such questions as cards that support either is more than probable to come out.
On another note, you must be in serious denial if you believe poison will not become any better over the next year. HALF of this set is supposed to represent phyrexia. Meaning somewhere near idk, maybe something like... HALF of this set will interact with or support poison. Unless poison is going to be evergreen, i see no reason for R&D to not push a T1 infect list (Especially with MaRo wanting it back so badly).
Skill is an ability that relates more so to the type of deck that's built and how said player pilots it. It also relates to the ability to assess the board and use the cards available to you in the most optimal way relative to each situation.
When a deck is filled with above par cards and every play is solid, there comes a diminishing need to "think" for the lack of wanting to use a better word.
Transcendent Master had 2 things going against it that Mirran Crusader doesn't.
1: He requires an additional mana investment after the initial 1WW
2: He has no protection or evasion. Yes, Mirran Crusader falls to Lightning Bolt, but he also dodges Doom Blade and swings past, or blocks, anything black or green. Transcendent Master, not so much.
Therefore, they are not at ALL similar. They COULD have the same fate, but with those two huge differences, I doubt it.
UR Ascension
Mono-U Birthing Pod
There is a lot of double strike and first strike in here to not have a Basilisk Collar.
Scratch that.
There is a lot of Stoneforge Mystic in here to not have at least 1 Basilisk Collar.
I think the Mirrian Crusader is being underestimated. He blocks Grave and Primeval Titan, avoids black removal, plows through Wall of Omens, Makes elves cry, and is an overall solid card.
Like many people are mentioning, he may just not have a deck to fit into. But as long as UB keeps dominating, this guy will see play. Hell, I'm about to start playtesting him as a MD option in my UW control. I've been looking for something sturdy, strong enough to survive against aggro, and still give control a run for it's money. This may be the guy.
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Skill is an ability that relates more so to the type of deck that's built and how said player pilots it. It also relates to the ability to assess the board and use the cards available to you in the most optimal way relative to each situation.
When a deck is filled with above par cards and every play is solid, there comes a diminishing need to "think" for the lack of wanting to use a better word.
I'm sure with a little more deliberation, it could work. Heck, it doesn't even have Squadron Hawk in there, and that's looking to be an excellent creature to hold any equipment.
Edit: Crusader has issues with Jura's +2 ability, but it's going to (eventually) be able to actually kill the 6/6 Indestructable, thanks to infect and pro white. The lack of flying is definitely an issue though.
Well, at least a 4/3, or a first-striking 2/x.
No, infect only dishes out poison counters if the damage is dealt. While Gideon is a creature he has "prevent all damage that would be dealt" to him. Since the damage is being prevented in the first place, it can't be dealt as poison counters either. Sorry, but PC doesn't kill Gideon any more than a deathtoucher.
Edit: wait, did you mean swinging into Gideon? Well, yeah, that'll work just fine, if Gideon's BFF Jace 2 isn't around to send the PC home.
--Kurt Vonnegut, Jr., who is up in Heaven now. EDH WUBRG Child of Alara WUBRG BGW Karador, Ghost Chieftain BGW RGW Mayael the Anima RGW WUB Sharuum the Hegemon WUB RWU Zedruu the Greathearted RWU
WB Ghost Council of Orzhova WB RG Ulasht, the Hate Seed RG B Korlash, Heir to Blackblade B G Molimo, Maro-Sorcerer G *click the general's name to see my list!*
He's the buy-a-box promo. Most people will get 1-of max. Hardly free.
--Kurt Vonnegut, Jr., who is up in Heaven now. EDH WUBRG Child of Alara WUBRG BGW Karador, Ghost Chieftain BGW RGW Mayael the Anima RGW WUB Sharuum the Hegemon WUB RWU Zedruu the Greathearted RWU
WB Ghost Council of Orzhova WB RG Ulasht, the Hate Seed RG B Korlash, Heir to Blackblade B G Molimo, Maro-Sorcerer G *click the general's name to see my list!*
He swings for 4, has two relevant protections and is sick with any pump effects. That doesn't warrant he will feature in a tier 1 deck unless he has decent support, but he will be played and he will be good.
Phyrex Crusader is now 3.99.
Mirran hasn't gone up in price.
The irony of how imbalanced things turn out to be when attempting to balance cards.
There's clearly an obvious statement being made here.
I'd be surprised if Poison doesnt hit legacy hard after infecters like him hit the board w/ Invigorate support.
Skill is an ability that relates more so to the type of deck that's built and how said player pilots it. It also relates to the ability to assess the board and use the cards available to you in the most optimal way relative to each situation.
When a deck is filled with above par cards and every play is solid, there comes a diminishing need to "think" for the lack of wanting to use a better word.
Thanks to Gabgabdevo for the awesome sig image!
I'm always looking for foil Madcap Skills and Ghitu Fire-Eater, [trade thread link forthcoming]
Exactly. Similar casting costs and similar P/T mean nothing. As a matter of fact, a 2/2 white creature is generally much better than a 2/2 black creature (why? white pumps its creatures more often). But a 2/2 black creature is more survivable than a 2/2 white creature (since black creatures typically dodge black removal). You can't do a straight compare. I was asking more about the issue you raise: where will these cards find a home, and will those decks be top tier?
Right now I still see preorders for P-Crusader higher than M-Crusader despite the fact that spoilers show WotC is pushing a mono-white tribal Knights deck about as hard as they pushed mono-black tribal Vampires with the printing of ZEN block. I remember picking up my playset of Nocturnuses at $2 each and trading them at $20 each... I doubt M-Crusader will ever go that high (I see it peaking around $7 if the deck is Tier 1, and it will definitely need a few more good cards for that to happen), but I still think $2.50 is almost criminally low and I can't wait to make a killing on them. M-Crusader should have the following flavor text: "Hi guys, don't forget I'm a double striker in the color that specializes in handing out +1/+1's like candy; that tends to be awesome!"
Compare to P-Crusader, which is higher value simply based, as far as I can tell, on hype. Sure, it seems strong in isolation, but is there a deck that will run it? Comparing the three-drop spot in a generic mono-B control archetype it's competing with Nighthawk and Gatekeeper. So is this better than a Nighthawk in that archetype? I think the answer is "no" because it doesn't do as many things as a Nighthawk. It's really hard to kill, but it can't hold off flyers and Jace still makes it go poof, so it doesn't seem like a superior line of defense against Jace-based control decks. Its creature-killing power seems likely to be reduced by the fact that it won't often be blocked. So then the question is, "does this card have a home in Infect?", to which the answer is, "not yet". Infect is still a turbo archetype based on proceeding immediately to endgame and killing the opponent before they can enter Phase Two. The deck doesn't have room for or really need more three drops. So I suppose it replaces Cystbearer (at least in non-budget builds), but the deck will still need green for pump (unless we get a reprint of Howl From Beyond... now how cool would that be? So the deck still needs to hit green mana without (as yet) enemy dual or filter lands... can you fit 1BB alongside XG comfortably, in a deck that wants to kill on turn 4? Probably. I suppose the card will be an upgrade over Cystbearer but it certainly doesn't break the deck open or put it into Tier 1. As I've said before, I strongly suspect MBS will release enough quality, slower infect creatures that we may finally see a grinding, infect / proliferate control deck gain Standard relevance, in which case this card will find a true home.
--Kurt Vonnegut, Jr., who is up in Heaven now. EDH WUBRG Child of Alara WUBRG BGW Karador, Ghost Chieftain BGW RGW Mayael the Anima RGW WUB Sharuum the Hegemon WUB RWU Zedruu the Greathearted RWU
WB Ghost Council of Orzhova WB RG Ulasht, the Hate Seed RG B Korlash, Heir to Blackblade B G Molimo, Maro-Sorcerer G *click the general's name to see my list!*