Yeah! Because there's something to do in an ART thread other than talk about... the pictures... Actually, no there's not.
There are a lot of ways to discuss art. Most of them don't involve fixating on visible sexual characteristics of characters to an absurd degree. Discussions that go that way tend to be about cheesecake or outright porn.
Since we're talking about art, I tend to think discussing things in the context of technique, composition, whether or not certain stylistic decisions are appropriate, and speculation on card abilities based on the art would be a lot less creepy than "hey, did you guys notice this character has a thigh gap and that other one's showing off her cleavage and whoa how about the ass on the blood witch?"
Yes, the physical appearance of a character is important. The way a character presents themselves tells us a lot about them. And most of the things these design choices say are a hell of a lot more important than "lol, boob window".
Dude. Context. This is a set based on classic Eastern-European look. When they have had sets based on Asian or African aesthetics, people have been represented accordingly. I'm all for race equality but I'm also for no shoehorning it where it's unwarranted just to keep everyone happy... though WotC does a bit of it (remember the MAIN character of the previous Ravnica story, Agrus Kos?)
Also, I don't think that Exava looks particularly Caucasian, no.
And before I'm met with undue accusations of privilege blindness, I'm not Caucasian myself.
Agrus Kos...one character out of thousands over time...yep that's balance.
The lack of diversity is unsettling, but unfortunately par for the course when it comes to the fantasy genre.
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Agrus Kos...one character out of thousands over time...yep that's balance.
The lack of diversity is unsettling, but unfortunately par for the course when it comes to the fantasy genre.
I think Maokun was getting more at the fact that Kos seemed out of place being the only black guy on the plane, kind of like how knowing Snapcaster Mage is Tiago Chan's Invitational card doesn't make Snappy stand out less for being the only asian guy on Innistrad.
More diversity would be great. Hell, I'd love to see planes that prominently incorporate bits of Hindu, Mesoamerican, and African mythology. But unfortunately, Magic has a sort of Planet of Hats thing going on where in order for a plane to maintain identity instead of seeming like a fevered dream of an anthropology major, they kinda need to keep their real-world cultural parallels to as few sources as possible when they draw on them at all. That's why Zendikar is ethnically diverse and Ravnica isn't.
I love the picture of a bunch of pikeman surrounding Niv-Mizzet. Do they really think they can stop very possibly the most powerful individual on all of Ravinca? He is old, he is hyper intelligent, he is a powerful mage, and most importantly... he is a freaking dragon.
Sure you might dislike WoW and LoL. I don't think we said anything about whether those games are good or not, I just that this card's artwork looks a lot like the art from league of legends.
I figured context clues would be enough, but of course I should have been blunt. Part of why I dont like said games is because I believe the art looks somewhat silly. I mean, this is the art thread right?
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Is it just me or is the Dimir guild symbol missing from Maze's End? Maybe I am just missing it.
I suspect that Dimir Charm was supposed to imply that such places might have perspective tricks that indicate their presence in a more subtle manner. The Dimir symbol is only missing from the art of Maze's End because we're not looking at it from the correct angle is my thinking.
Dude. Context. This is a set based on classic Eastern-European look.
Dude, I completely see your context. After all, as we all know, there's absolutely no people of colour in all of Eastern-Europe, now or ever.
Furthermore, the fact that this is fantasy and that WotC is in complete control of their IP means that they have the unique opportunity to do things differently... especially since so many people of colour play the game and especially especially since WotC and people like MaRo constantly remind us that while they draw their influence from popular culture or popular mythology, it's always their interpretations of it. With more and more people of all races, genders and orientations playing the game, why not have more representation within the game?
Having more people of colour in Ravnica would NOT detract from Ravnica's Eastern-European. Correct me if I'm wrong, but how many merfolk have you seen in Hungary? You see a lot of Thrulls in Bulgaria? How about giant Cyclops in Romania? The point being, if it's okay to see these creatures in Ravnica, I can't see why we can't have more people of colour in Ravnica... or all of Magic for that matter.
I, for one, love seeing characters like Echo Mage, Frontline Medic, Snapcaster Mage and Koth of the Hammer. And I stand by the fact that I'm disappointed that out of all the Champions, they couldn't depict a single non-creature humanoid as a person of colour. It just made me think of Rock's "It's all right, 'cause it's all White."
As soon as I saw that the Maze had a beginning and ending, and heard that there are champion Champions, I got to thinking that it's going to be like the TriWizard Tournament from HP 4.
Dude, I completely see your context. After all, as we all know, there's absolutely no people of colour in all of Eastern-Europe, now or ever.
Furthermore, the fact that this is fantasy and that WotC is in complete control of their IP means that they have the unique opportunity to do things differently... especially since so many people of colour play the game and especially especially since WotC and people like MaRo constantly remind us that while they draw their influence from popular culture or popular mythology, it's always their interpretations of it. With more and more people of all races, genders and orientations playing the game, why not have more representation within the game?
Having more people of colour in Ravnica would NOT detract from Ravnica's Eastern-European. Correct me if I'm wrong, but how many merfolk have you seen in Hungary? You see a lot of Thrulls in Bulgaria? How about giant Cyclops in Romania? The point being, if it's okay to see these creatures in Ravnica, I can't see why we can't have more people of colour in Ravnica... or all of Magic for that matter.
I, for one, love seeing characters like Echo Mage, Frontline Medic, Snapcaster Mage and Koth of the Hammer. And I stand by the fact that I'm disappointed that out of all the Champions, they couldn't depict a single non-creature humanoid as a person of colour. It just made me think of Rock's "It's all right, 'cause it's all White."
But you are just feeding what he also said. Shoe-horning people of color into a block just seems weird. For instance, Snapcaster Mage. Granted, that card was based on Taigo-chan but still, an asian in Innistrad is....odd. Or seeing a typical Caucasian in Kamigawa. It is just.... odd. There is no need to randomly shoe horn a general black guy into everything. If your feelings are that pathetic you have otehr issues.
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And I stand by the fact that I'm disappointed that out of all the Champions, they couldn't depict a single non-creature humanoid as a person of colour. It just made me think of Rock's "It's all right, 'cause it's all White."
Tajic is fairly clearly black, Exava could easily pass for Western Asian.
But you are just feeding what he also said. Shoe-horning people of color into a block just seems weird. For instance, Snapcaster Mage. Granted, that card was based on Taigo-chan but still, an asian in Innistrad is....odd. Or seeing a typical Caucasian in Kamigawa. It is just.... odd. There is no need to randomly shoe horn a general black guy into everything. If your feelings are that pathetic you have otehr issues.
Pathetic? Now we're insulting people? Awesome. Cool forums we got here.
And no, you missed my point. If there was more balance, it wouldn't feel odd. It would feel normal. It feels odd now because they're shoehorned in. Do you feel it's odd when an Asian guy shows up to your FNM to play Magic? Would you feel odd if you went to a PTQ and sat across form a Black girl?
I disagree. He seems like he's Caucasian with a beard. BUT, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. Maybe it's just the colouring in this image. Hopefully there's another card with him in it and maybe we can see him a little clearer elsewhere.
So anyone see the trailer? Looks like a pretty good way to detail the plot for the third part of the novels. Which, i really need to download the first two...
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I just wish they'd stop the whole "one being will rule the guilds of Ravnica" silliness. We're walking away from this block with all ten guilds intact and on the same political level. They'd be fools to do anything else, given how beloved the setting is.
Well, it's 2013 but not in Ravnica. If a black man, or some guy from Middle East would show up in the medieval Eastern Europe he probably wouldn't have an easy life. Not only he would look really unusually but also he would come from different cultural area and could be considered an enemy (especially after crusading started).
Ravnica ≠ Earth's Eastern-Europe.
Just because we have racial prejudices here doesn't mean we need to translate those some prejudices to Ravnica.
So anyone see the trailer? Looks like a pretty good way to detail the plot for the third part of the novels. Which, i really need to download the first two...
Pathetic? Now we're insulting people? Awesome. Cool forums we got here.
And no, you missed my point. If there was more balance, it wouldn't feel odd. It would feel normal. It feels odd now because they're shoehorned in. Do you feel it's odd when an Asian guy shows up to your FNM to play Magic? Would you feel odd if you went to a PTQ and sat across form a Black girl?
Come on. Is this still 2013? Jeez.
I disagree. He seems like he's Caucasian with a beard. BUT, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. Maybe it's just the colouring in this image. Hopefully there's another card with him in it and maybe we can see him a little clearer elsewhere.
Sure? I guess? A little hard with the glowing red eyes and crazy helmet for me to tell.
Except this world is very much based on Europe. And guess who made up over 90% of Europe until the industrial revolution? The ethnic background of a person kind of also sets up the culture, especially in more "Mideval" environments. Like I said, it would be weird seeing a random black guy in Kamigawa since Kamigawa is very obviously based on Japanese lore. Putting all sorts of people into it would delute the feel of the world (when people think of Ancient Japanese lore, Asian looking people are just what is conjured up because its just PART of the lore).
And I am sorry but if a person is so damn sensitive that they get offended because there is not enough black people in a fictional, European based world then yes, I would call them pathetic. I would tell them to grow up and quit acting like a little baby.
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I hope I wasn't the only one to notice that, when the lines of light shoot from the center of the maze to the "9" guild symbols, a tenth line shoots into the ground.
Except this world is very much based on Europe. And guess who made up over 90% of Europe until the industrial revolution? The ethnic background of a person kind of also sets up the culture, especially in more "Mideval" environments. Like I said, it would be weird seeing a random black guy in Kamigawa since Kamigawa is very obviously based on Japanese lore. Putting all sorts of people into it would delute the feel of the world (when people think of Ancient Japanese lore, Asian looking people are just what is conjured up because its just PART of the lore).
And I am sorry but if a person is so damn sensitive that they get offended because there is not enough black people in a fictional, European based world then yes, I would call them pathetic. I would tell them to grow up and quit acting like a little baby.
Keep insulting me, DudeBro, it's totally cool. I understand that it makes you feel better about yourself to demean others, so feel free to keep going.
Did Frontline Medicshatter your illusion of Ravnica? How about the Soldier? Is Ravnica now forever "not true to the source material of Eastern-Europe?"
You know what I'm getting from your argument? You're totally cool with vampires and goblins and vedalken and viashinos and giants and spirits and dragons and avatars and beasts and freakin' angels and demons in your ridiculously accurate representation of "Eastern-Europe," but make the human population more diverse? WHOA NOW.
WHOA.
NOW.
What do you think this is? Having people of colour in our Magic?!? That's just... that's just crazy talk and COMPLETELY INACCURATE and NO ONE SHOULD WANT SUCH A THING or COMPLAIN THAT THEY'D EVER WANT TO SEE MORE PEOPLE OF COLOUR. You want more dragons? No problem! But an Asian guy or two? GTFO.
I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, but that's what I'm getting from your argument.
Keep insulting me, DudeBro, it's totally cool. I understand that it makes you feel better about yourself to demean others, so feel free to keep going.
Did Frontline Medicshatter your illusion of Ravnica? How about the Soldier? Is Ravnica now forever "not true to the source material of Eastern-Europe?"
You know what I'm getting from your argument? You're totally cool with vampires and goblins and vedalken and viashinos and giants and spirits and dragons and avatars and beasts and freakin' angels and demons in your ridiculously accurate representation of "Eastern-Europe," but make the human population more diverse? WHOA NOW.
WHOA.
NOW.
What do you think this is? Having people of colour in our Magic?!? That's just... that's just crazy talk and COMPLETELY INACCURATE and NO ONE SHOULD WANT SUCH A THING or COMPLAIN THAT THEY'D EVER WANT TO SEE MORE PEOPLE OF COLOUR. You want more dragons? No problem! But an Asian guy or two? GTFO.
I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, but that's what I'm getting from your argument.
Actually that what YOU are getting. I am freaking Asian. And I was not directly insulting you, you dimwit. Learn to read. I was saying that if you are so insecure that you think that you need to force your race into everything then yes.. you are pathetic. Grow up. Now if YOU are like that then yes. Grow up. Again, learn to read you dimwit child.
Is it just me or is the Dimir guild symbol missing from Maze's End? Maybe I am just missing it.
Wizards just released the trailer for Dragon's Maze. At 1:07 the trailer shows beams of light shooting off into each guild's representative pillars. However, one beam shoots off into the ground between the Simic and Azorius pillars. This can probably be inferred to be the "missing Dimir symbol" location.
...
...
...probably...
That, and you know what they say. If Wizards started shipping $100 bills in boosters tomorrow, people would scream and cry and whine that they were folded the wrong way.
Just because we have racial prejudices here doesn't mean we need to translate those some prejudices to Ravnica.
<You are a prick>. What you are whining about is not only blown out proportion, but also does not matter and here's why:
One. This a game, made by a bunch of white guys, for a bunch of white guys in country full of white guys, about a place that is based on the politics of, essentially, Europe. Which is a place full of white people. No ****ing **** their games are going to be full of white people. You cannot be surprised that generally people create things based on what they see around them. That's just a simple fact. It's the same reason Indian movies are filled with Indians, Chinese movies are filled with Chinese people, Japanese movies are filled with Japanese people etc.
Two. The making of the game does not reflect any racial prejudice, it simply reflects the society we are living in, and Wizard's target audience. White people. Countries that are predominantly white; Europe, United States, South America. If you are upset at the lack of racial diversity in the western world, where most magic players live, you should go take that up somewhere else.
Three. This is a game. This is not where you should be leading your holy crusade against the lack of racial diversity. Go look at something like government, school districts, income distribution, or something, that in the grand scheme of things, actually matters. Or, if you are even taking a stand about the perception of race by the creators of American culture, you should be looking at something that is broader.
Get off of your high horse. You aren't the savior of minorities all across the United States because you whining about the lack of diversity in MTG card art, and presumably other places. It doesn't matter. It doesn't make you a better, more moral person, that you waste peoples time like this. In fact, the fact that you pointed this out, I would argue makes you worse than the rest of us. Nobody else said a word about this problem, simply because nobody else noticed it. To them all they saw were people. All the same as any other white, black, blue whatever person. And this is actually what every minority in America has ever fought for actually, to be the same as the ruling race, NOT to have <idiots like you> running around and preaching. Point is, only you have this filter of race in front of your eyes. Everyone else just sees people, and I would advise you to start looking at it all the same.
There are a lot of ways to discuss art. Most of them don't involve fixating on visible sexual characteristics of characters to an absurd degree. Discussions that go that way tend to be about cheesecake or outright porn.
Since we're talking about art, I tend to think discussing things in the context of technique, composition, whether or not certain stylistic decisions are appropriate, and speculation on card abilities based on the art would be a lot less creepy than "hey, did you guys notice this character has a thigh gap and that other one's showing off her cleavage and whoa how about the ass on the blood witch?"
Yes, the physical appearance of a character is important. The way a character presents themselves tells us a lot about them. And most of the things these design choices say are a hell of a lot more important than "lol, boob window".
Agrus Kos...one character out of thousands over time...yep that's balance.
The lack of diversity is unsettling, but unfortunately par for the course when it comes to the fantasy genre.
Modern
Dredge, Evo-Chord, U/G Faeries, Living End, Something New
I think Maokun was getting more at the fact that Kos seemed out of place being the only black guy on the plane, kind of like how knowing Snapcaster Mage is Tiago Chan's Invitational card doesn't make Snappy stand out less for being the only asian guy on Innistrad.
More diversity would be great. Hell, I'd love to see planes that prominently incorporate bits of Hindu, Mesoamerican, and African mythology. But unfortunately, Magic has a sort of Planet of Hats thing going on where in order for a plane to maintain identity instead of seeming like a fevered dream of an anthropology major, they kinda need to keep their real-world cultural parallels to as few sources as possible when they draw on them at all. That's why Zendikar is ethnically diverse and Ravnica isn't.
Also, I guess that is why they were trying to Assemble the Legion.
This aint your girlfriends meta! This is a man's meta! TURBO META.
I figured context clues would be enough, but of course I should have been blunt. Part of why I dont like said games is because I believe the art looks somewhat silly. I mean, this is the art thread right?
There is buried treasure everywhere...in a graveyard.
I suspect that Dimir Charm was supposed to imply that such places might have perspective tricks that indicate their presence in a more subtle manner. The Dimir symbol is only missing from the art of Maze's End because we're not looking at it from the correct angle is my thinking.
Furthermore, the fact that this is fantasy and that WotC is in complete control of their IP means that they have the unique opportunity to do things differently... especially since so many people of colour play the game and especially especially since WotC and people like MaRo constantly remind us that while they draw their influence from popular culture or popular mythology, it's always their interpretations of it. With more and more people of all races, genders and orientations playing the game, why not have more representation within the game?
Having more people of colour in Ravnica would NOT detract from Ravnica's Eastern-European. Correct me if I'm wrong, but how many merfolk have you seen in Hungary? You see a lot of Thrulls in Bulgaria? How about giant Cyclops in Romania? The point being, if it's okay to see these creatures in Ravnica, I can't see why we can't have more people of colour in Ravnica... or all of Magic for that matter.
I, for one, love seeing characters like Echo Mage, Frontline Medic, Snapcaster Mage and Koth of the Hammer. And I stand by the fact that I'm disappointed that out of all the Champions, they couldn't depict a single non-creature humanoid as a person of colour. It just made me think of Rock's "It's all right, 'cause it's all White."
Aside from that.
I just can't wait to like preorder 5-9 Teysa's.
But you are just feeding what he also said. Shoe-horning people of color into a block just seems weird. For instance, Snapcaster Mage. Granted, that card was based on Taigo-chan but still, an asian in Innistrad is....odd. Or seeing a typical Caucasian in Kamigawa. It is just.... odd. There is no need to randomly shoe horn a general black guy into everything. If your feelings are that pathetic you have otehr issues.
This aint your girlfriends meta! This is a man's meta! TURBO META.
Tajic is fairly clearly black, Exava could easily pass for Western Asian.
And no, you missed my point. If there was more balance, it wouldn't feel odd. It would feel normal. It feels odd now because they're shoehorned in. Do you feel it's odd when an Asian guy shows up to your FNM to play Magic? Would you feel odd if you went to a PTQ and sat across form a Black girl?
Come on. Is this still 2013? Jeez.
I disagree. He seems like he's Caucasian with a beard. BUT, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. Maybe it's just the colouring in this image. Hopefully there's another card with him in it and maybe we can see him a little clearer elsewhere.
Sure? I guess? A little hard with the glowing red eyes and crazy helmet for me to tell.
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Just because we have racial prejudices here doesn't mean we need to translate those some prejudices to Ravnica.
Link to trailer please?
Except this world is very much based on Europe. And guess who made up over 90% of Europe until the industrial revolution? The ethnic background of a person kind of also sets up the culture, especially in more "Mideval" environments. Like I said, it would be weird seeing a random black guy in Kamigawa since Kamigawa is very obviously based on Japanese lore. Putting all sorts of people into it would delute the feel of the world (when people think of Ancient Japanese lore, Asian looking people are just what is conjured up because its just PART of the lore).
And I am sorry but if a person is so damn sensitive that they get offended because there is not enough black people in a fictional, European based world then yes, I would call them pathetic. I would tell them to grow up and quit acting like a little baby.
This aint your girlfriends meta! This is a man's meta! TURBO META.
Did Frontline Medic shatter your illusion of Ravnica? How about the Soldier? Is Ravnica now forever "not true to the source material of Eastern-Europe?"
You know what I'm getting from your argument? You're totally cool with vampires and goblins and vedalken and viashinos and giants and spirits and dragons and avatars and beasts and freakin' angels and demons in your ridiculously accurate representation of "Eastern-Europe," but make the human population more diverse? WHOA NOW.
WHOA.
NOW.
What do you think this is? Having people of colour in our Magic?!? That's just... that's just crazy talk and COMPLETELY INACCURATE and NO ONE SHOULD WANT SUCH A THING or COMPLAIN THAT THEY'D EVER WANT TO SEE MORE PEOPLE OF COLOUR. You want more dragons? No problem! But an Asian guy or two? GTFO.
I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, but that's what I'm getting from your argument.
Actually that what YOU are getting. I am freaking Asian. And I was not directly insulting you, you dimwit. Learn to read. I was saying that if you are so insecure that you think that you need to force your race into everything then yes.. you are pathetic. Grow up. Now if YOU are like that then yes. Grow up. Again, learn to read you dimwit child.
Infraction for flaming. -TK
This aint your girlfriends meta! This is a man's meta! TURBO META.
Wizards just released the trailer for Dragon's Maze. At 1:07 the trailer shows beams of light shooting off into each guild's representative pillars. However, one beam shoots off into the ground between the Simic and Azorius pillars. This can probably be inferred to be the "missing Dimir symbol" location.
...
...
...probably...
//stat.rumandmonkey.com/tests/1/6/5261/20801.jpg">stat.rumandmonkey.com
<You are a prick>. What you are whining about is not only blown out proportion, but also does not matter and here's why:
One. This a game, made by a bunch of white guys, for a bunch of white guys in country full of white guys, about a place that is based on the politics of, essentially, Europe. Which is a place full of white people. No ****ing **** their games are going to be full of white people. You cannot be surprised that generally people create things based on what they see around them. That's just a simple fact. It's the same reason Indian movies are filled with Indians, Chinese movies are filled with Chinese people, Japanese movies are filled with Japanese people etc.
Two. The making of the game does not reflect any racial prejudice, it simply reflects the society we are living in, and Wizard's target audience. White people. Countries that are predominantly white; Europe, United States, South America. If you are upset at the lack of racial diversity in the western world, where most magic players live, you should go take that up somewhere else.
Three. This is a game. This is not where you should be leading your holy crusade against the lack of racial diversity. Go look at something like government, school districts, income distribution, or something, that in the grand scheme of things, actually matters. Or, if you are even taking a stand about the perception of race by the creators of American culture, you should be looking at something that is broader.
Get off of your high horse. You aren't the savior of minorities all across the United States because you whining about the lack of diversity in MTG card art, and presumably other places. It doesn't matter. It doesn't make you a better, more moral person, that you waste peoples time like this. In fact, the fact that you pointed this out, I would argue makes you worse than the rest of us. Nobody else said a word about this problem, simply because nobody else noticed it. To them all they saw were people. All the same as any other white, black, blue whatever person. And this is actually what every minority in America has ever fought for actually, to be the same as the ruling race, NOT to have <idiots like you> running around and preaching. Point is, only you have this filter of race in front of your eyes. Everyone else just sees people, and I would advise you to start looking at it all the same.
Please don't flame other users. -TK
Wow. And I thought Ral Zarek sounded like a ponce when I read The Secretist. I was nowhere close to prepared for how poncy he'd actually sound.