If I recall correctly, wasn't this product supposed to also be available to big box stores? Wouldn't it be hilarious if the shelves at Walmart/Target are filled with these a week from now?
"A rich man thinks all other people are rich, and an intelligent man thinks all other people are similarly gifted. Both are always terribly shocked when they discover the truth of the world. You, my dear brother, are a pious man." - Strahd von Zarovich
If I recall correctly, wasn't this product supposed to also be available to big box stores? Wouldn't it be hilarious if the shelves at Walmart/Target are filled with these a week from now?
You recall incorrectly. These were highly allocated items that were only given to brick and mortar card stores set up with wizards. Each store gets 2-5 depending upon their level, and there will be none available from your walmarts and targets of the world.
I don't know how plausible that seems, given the constraints around the development and printing process. I know Retainers has the feeling of a last-minute addition, but I don't think WotC can really swerve product releases at the last minute like that. It was probably a really savvy inclusion from the get-go.
You're probably right. Seems so out-of-place, though.
See, I don't think it's garbage. If I could have a pimped Scroll Rack and Sylvan Library, throw in a foiled Rhystic Study and a new-art Command Tower...hell, I'd probably pay $75 just for that.
I can get used versions of all those cards for around $30, and play with them legally at tournaments.
Spinning wheels. people want others to see their spinning wheels that spin on their ride. I wish they could know what their audience thought, at least a section of that audience.
there's a case to be made with relative market value and loyal retainers. really, so many other cards not on the reserved list could have been printed. the spider is a joke, rhystic studies are cheap. its undetstandable why people think this set is gatbage, less retainers and maybe the chan
Agree that the set seems reasonable for $75, given cards like Scroll Rack and Sylvan. It honestly feels like they freaked out about the inflated prices and peoples' reactions, and tossed Retainers in to appease cryers-out. Seems like a total throw-in...
They would have finalised the set long before they announced it. Besides, it doesn't seem like a throw-in at all, it has an obvious link to Commander through the legendary thing and it's a valuable P3K card. I really don't understand, well, anything people say about P3K in this context. It seems pretty obvious to me.
I guess you guys haven't been reading the thread up to this point, but this set will NOT be selling for $75. The average price they seem to be preordering for on ebay is $250 with some as high as $400.
I have been playing magic since Ice Age. I am far more Timmy / Johnny than I ever will be Spike, and I have never really participated in organized play outside of pre-releases which I still attend almost every set. I love the pre-release foils.
I try to purchase one of every Magic product I can. I sit clearly in your table top demo. I spend about $2,000 a year in Magic products and would spend more if I could afford it. I don't make a lot and $2,000 is most of my entertainment budget for a year. I will trade but I never sell. I am a collector and am very proud of the items I have put together. I have purchased every Vs. set except Goblins Vs. Elves, all three of the Premium Series decks, every Plancechase, Archenemy, and Commander deck, and every From The Vault I could get my hands on at the store level, which has been two. I keep all my inserts and have gone back and purchased as many of the Player's Guides from Fat Packs that I had missed out on as I could. I have also put together most of all three seasons of Vanguard. I love to collect the oversized cards even though I don't often play with them. So as the run up to Commander's Arsenal was happening I got really excited. And more than most people I wanted the oversized cards, the sleeves, the +/- tokens, the life counter, and yes the insert! The 18 playable cards are great, don't get me wrong. But they held as much sway to me as the trinkets and bobbles that were thrown in to make my exact demo salivate. The last three years I have purchased the Premium Series decks during the holidays. I know it wasn't working as a product and I think switching it to Commander is only logical. I'm glad you did it. However I won't be able to purchase this years offering.
I have called all the shops in the Portland, Oregon area and they all say what limited copies they have are gong to sell from between $250 to $350. I'm sure I don't have to explain that they are looking at mostly the price of two cards in this box for the price. And yes that leaves the secondary market like e-bay to pick up the little things I wanted but I have little doubt their rareness will still put them out of play for me.
Plus when I say I collect things I include packaging. I have often said I like to use the whole buffalo, and when I get a Fat Pack I use the panorama art on the inside of the sleeve and make card storage boxes out of them, then take the Fat Pack box and turn it into a deck box. They look pretty good and I'm proud of them and my ability to turn what amounts to little more than packaging to most into something I can use. And to purchase these supplies to make them at a premium on ebay makes no sense. I don't want to buy a buffalo skin. I want the buffalo and I will get the skin from it myself. It hits that perfect primal instinct to hunt and then glean from that hunt. That needs to be encouraged.
For months now I have been checking the MTG Daily site at 9pm PST every week night to find out what is in this thing and when I can get it. I never thought it would get as bad as FTV, which has been almost impossible for me to walk into a store, even day of release, and purchase. So you have created a product that I want but due to the limited print run and the out of control cost of two of the cards it will be completely out of my purchasing powers. And it seems as if this is targeted to my exact demo.
Compound that with the increased prices for Return to Ravnica products, which I purchased 3 booster boxes and a fat pack, and what that means for my chances of getting a pre-sale booster box for Gatecrash at $89 like I have been, plus my fears of the cost for packs and boxes of Modern Masters, Magic seems to be moving to a whole different level as far as price and availability goes.
I haven't been a fan of all of your decisions as a company, but never once have I written a letter or posted on a forums page about it. Never has a company pushed all of my niche buttons so well then made it so hard for me to purchase their product. I doubt I will ever stop playing magic, but my ability to buy a set amount of each product is slipping away. As a collector I am seeing a part of the market on new products pricing me out of them. And when I start to realize my chances of getting all of it is none, especially when you have had me at the end of a string for months now about this product, I start to question if I should get so emotionally involved with the collecting side. I think it was a poor business discussion to dangle the carrot for so long and then have us find out the $75 msrp would be so out of whack. It really has broken my heart. The only feeling I can compare it to is waking up Christmas morning and finding out my months of pleading did not bring a NES to the Christmas tree. I just wanted one console and one game, Zelda. But when my parents went and looked at buying me a NES for Christmas, Zelda was sold out. So they didn't buy me a NES. I would have been happy with the console and another crappy game. They thought I wanted Zelda above all else. Due to outside forces I was prevented from having something that I would have made reasonable compromises to obtain if I were an adult. But this is even worse because it's as if Nintendo had decided to only sell the NES with copies of Zelda, plus neither of these items comes close to being a trinket or bobble like the little things I want in the Commander's Arsenal. It feels like you have recreated the worst Christmas of my young life. I know it is as stupid and childish and selfish now as it was then. But lets face it, you as a company are trying to recreate that experience of the great Christmases I had growing up and that is just as childish and selfish. And you have been pretty good and recreating those.
Wizards has an outstanding record for making me feel good about going through the process of teaser, reveal, release. FTV was the start of that process going bad. Madly refreshing my browser at 9pm should be encouraged. But the more I get burned during the reveal and release phase the less I am going to do it which in turn means I will be spending less time and money on Magic. What I think would fix the situation almost entirely with me is one of two things. You could first reduce if not outright cut all teasers for products that will not be practically obtainable. In what way did it serve this product to be announced months ago at the price of 74.99? In no way did the Sylvan Library give me any indication that the Portal Three Kingdoms cards would make it's price go bonkers. Months of excitement and anticipation and luring me in like the successful fisherman you have always been and you are the one to cut the line and let me go? That just seems like bad business to me.
There are only so many times I will allow myself to feel like a fool for getting excited about one of your products. The other thing you could have done was release a premium and limited version just as the product now stands, but then have had a second product that is the rest of the set without the playable cards. Make the oversized cards non-foil, and shift the main selling point to the sleeves, the +/-counters, and the life counter. Price it around $45-55. The oversized cards should be seen as the little bit of extra. Have a slightly higher print run and still only distribute to card specialty shops. Not a lot as you won't move much, but I would buy it and I would be happy. Because it wouldn't be highly sought the limited print run wouldn't hurt as much as the product would be available. Either one of these solutions would have kept me from feeling that Wizards was the Grinch for my Christmas this year. In Christmases past I have found packs of cards in my stockings. This year there will be a big old lump of coal with it.
Did anyone even read that massive block of babble? Everything about it is what is wrong with writing as a whole. Try making it paragraphs eh?
BTW Thank you Wizards I love the product!
About the guy who said he could get X cards in the set unfoiled for like 30 bucks. You sir must not play Commander. Pimpin is half the fun of playing the dang game!
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**** this site. I'd delete this account but that doesn't seem to be an option. The mods here are ******* useless ********s who ban people for simple ass normal words. **** them and **** this site.
Are they seriously going to print Dragonlair Spider, Maelstrom Wanderer and Vela the Nightclad in this expensive box? Who made this decision and why? I know they always use filler material in their pre-cons, but seriously now, these were printed very recently
They just printed them in a Planechase 2012 pre-con, damnit
Are they seriously going to print Dragonlair Spider, Maelstrom Wanderer and Vela the Nightclad in this expensive box? Who made this decision and why? I know they always use filler material in their pre-cons, but seriously now, these were printed very recently
They just printed them in a Planechase 2012 pre-con, damnit
Reason plain and easy is that they do not exist as foils so far and are made specific for Commander players.
For the discussion of the price.
A product that is in limited supply will allways get more expensive if enough buyers exist.
A shop has a high incentive to actual get the most money out of this product. If they sell it for 75$ they are pretty much just stupid, its not rip off at all, as they can obvisious get a lot more money from it with little to no extra work
If you can't buy the product, no problem, its not that you "need" it, simply wait and possible trade for the cards you really like to have, thats a big part of magic, as its a "collectible" and "trading" card game, not just buy everything you like and thats it.
Are they seriously going to print Dragonlair Spider, Maelstrom Wanderer and Vela the Nightclad in this expensive box? Who made this decision and why? I know they always use filler material in their pre-cons, but seriously now, these were printed very recently
They just printed them in a Planechase 2012 pre-con, damnit
Because they haven't been printed in Foil, and some of us are very excited for them.
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Proud Member of the "Help Fblthp Get Home in DGM" Society
Are they seriously going to print Dragonlair Spider, Maelstrom Wanderer and Vela the Nightclad in this expensive box? Who made this decision and why? I know they always use filler material in their pre-cons, but seriously now, these were printed very recently
They just printed them in a Planechase 2012 pre-con, damnit
There's already so much value in this product, man. We won. No need for more tears.
Are they seriously going to print Dragonlair Spider, Maelstrom Wanderer and Vela the Nightclad in this expensive box? Who made this decision and why? I know they always use filler material in their pre-cons, but seriously now, these were printed very recently
They just printed them in a Planechase 2012 pre-con, damnit
This part of the product really screams "we don't know wtf to do, get this **** out the door".
Honestly the whole marketing and design behind this has me scratching my head. First, we had the highly successful and mostly well-designed Commander precons last year. Widely available. Very popular. Quite useful for playing Commander thanks to helpful staples like Sol Ring, Skullclamp, old and new multiplayer-focused cards, and new generals.
Then we suddenly decide to make what sounds like a followup, because we cancelled something else. Instead of being widely available and helpful for playing Commander (something you might expect from a product called "Commander's Arsenal"), it will be super limited, and it will contain-
1) Some of the exact same generals we just sold you in the Precons, except in foil
2) a seemingly random smattering of 9 cards that see play in Commander, including one we just sold you in the Precon
3) two P3K cards that no one really plays and seem mostly out of place, but are technically valuable; because... otherwise this set will sell like dog turds, and we're too lazy to put effort into this
4) three cards from Planechase that we JUST released and no one really cares about... because **** you.
It's so haphazard. It's a mishmash of nonsense that is badly designed and not up to WOTC's standard. There's no theme. It's not "box of Commander Staples" (wooo! 18 cards and I got my staple Dragonlair Spider! woo yeah!). It's not "FTV: P3K". It's not "Random Pimp Commander cards". And it's not "Foil Out That General You Bought Last Year".
DCI Judge L2 - Minneapolis
Thanks to Megabug/Sgt Chubbz and Kracked Graphics for the Sig
Legacy
RUBFaithless Dredge
You recall incorrectly. These were highly allocated items that were only given to brick and mortar card stores set up with wizards. Each store gets 2-5 depending upon their level, and there will be none available from your walmarts and targets of the world.
Yep.
Anyone complaining has a seriously skewed sense of value.
You're probably right. Seems so out-of-place, though.
Also...
What on earth are u playing 4 retainers in?
EDH/Commander: Karn silver golem (foiled), Narset combo, Maelstrom Wanderer random goodies, Nekusar grixis draw stuff, freyalise, Gissa Zombies!, marchesa obliterate,
Prosh just wins!,
--- Will WOTC just visit Cybertron already! ----
I can get used versions of all those cards for around $30, and play with them legally at tournaments.
Spinning wheels. people want others to see their spinning wheels that spin on their ride. I wish they could know what their audience thought, at least a section of that audience.
there's a case to be made with relative market value and loyal retainers. really, so many other cards not on the reserved list could have been printed. the spider is a joke, rhystic studies are cheap. its undetstandable why people think this set is gatbage, less retainers and maybe the chan
They would have finalised the set long before they announced it. Besides, it doesn't seem like a throw-in at all, it has an obvious link to Commander through the legendary thing and it's a valuable P3K card. I really don't understand, well, anything people say about P3K in this context. It seems pretty obvious to me.
I have been playing magic since Ice Age. I am far more Timmy / Johnny than I ever will be Spike, and I have never really participated in organized play outside of pre-releases which I still attend almost every set. I love the pre-release foils.
I try to purchase one of every Magic product I can. I sit clearly in your table top demo. I spend about $2,000 a year in Magic products and would spend more if I could afford it. I don't make a lot and $2,000 is most of my entertainment budget for a year. I will trade but I never sell. I am a collector and am very proud of the items I have put together. I have purchased every Vs. set except Goblins Vs. Elves, all three of the Premium Series decks, every Plancechase, Archenemy, and Commander deck, and every From The Vault I could get my hands on at the store level, which has been two. I keep all my inserts and have gone back and purchased as many of the Player's Guides from Fat Packs that I had missed out on as I could. I have also put together most of all three seasons of Vanguard. I love to collect the oversized cards even though I don't often play with them. So as the run up to Commander's Arsenal was happening I got really excited. And more than most people I wanted the oversized cards, the sleeves, the +/- tokens, the life counter, and yes the insert! The 18 playable cards are great, don't get me wrong. But they held as much sway to me as the trinkets and bobbles that were thrown in to make my exact demo salivate. The last three years I have purchased the Premium Series decks during the holidays. I know it wasn't working as a product and I think switching it to Commander is only logical. I'm glad you did it. However I won't be able to purchase this years offering.
I have called all the shops in the Portland, Oregon area and they all say what limited copies they have are gong to sell from between $250 to $350. I'm sure I don't have to explain that they are looking at mostly the price of two cards in this box for the price. And yes that leaves the secondary market like e-bay to pick up the little things I wanted but I have little doubt their rareness will still put them out of play for me.
Plus when I say I collect things I include packaging. I have often said I like to use the whole buffalo, and when I get a Fat Pack I use the panorama art on the inside of the sleeve and make card storage boxes out of them, then take the Fat Pack box and turn it into a deck box. They look pretty good and I'm proud of them and my ability to turn what amounts to little more than packaging to most into something I can use. And to purchase these supplies to make them at a premium on ebay makes no sense. I don't want to buy a buffalo skin. I want the buffalo and I will get the skin from it myself. It hits that perfect primal instinct to hunt and then glean from that hunt. That needs to be encouraged.
For months now I have been checking the MTG Daily site at 9pm PST every week night to find out what is in this thing and when I can get it. I never thought it would get as bad as FTV, which has been almost impossible for me to walk into a store, even day of release, and purchase. So you have created a product that I want but due to the limited print run and the out of control cost of two of the cards it will be completely out of my purchasing powers. And it seems as if this is targeted to my exact demo.
Compound that with the increased prices for Return to Ravnica products, which I purchased 3 booster boxes and a fat pack, and what that means for my chances of getting a pre-sale booster box for Gatecrash at $89 like I have been, plus my fears of the cost for packs and boxes of Modern Masters, Magic seems to be moving to a whole different level as far as price and availability goes.
I haven't been a fan of all of your decisions as a company, but never once have I written a letter or posted on a forums page about it. Never has a company pushed all of my niche buttons so well then made it so hard for me to purchase their product. I doubt I will ever stop playing magic, but my ability to buy a set amount of each product is slipping away. As a collector I am seeing a part of the market on new products pricing me out of them. And when I start to realize my chances of getting all of it is none, especially when you have had me at the end of a string for months now about this product, I start to question if I should get so emotionally involved with the collecting side. I think it was a poor business discussion to dangle the carrot for so long and then have us find out the $75 msrp would be so out of whack. It really has broken my heart. The only feeling I can compare it to is waking up Christmas morning and finding out my months of pleading did not bring a NES to the Christmas tree. I just wanted one console and one game, Zelda. But when my parents went and looked at buying me a NES for Christmas, Zelda was sold out. So they didn't buy me a NES. I would have been happy with the console and another crappy game. They thought I wanted Zelda above all else. Due to outside forces I was prevented from having something that I would have made reasonable compromises to obtain if I were an adult. But this is even worse because it's as if Nintendo had decided to only sell the NES with copies of Zelda, plus neither of these items comes close to being a trinket or bobble like the little things I want in the Commander's Arsenal. It feels like you have recreated the worst Christmas of my young life. I know it is as stupid and childish and selfish now as it was then. But lets face it, you as a company are trying to recreate that experience of the great Christmases I had growing up and that is just as childish and selfish. And you have been pretty good and recreating those.
Wizards has an outstanding record for making me feel good about going through the process of teaser, reveal, release. FTV was the start of that process going bad. Madly refreshing my browser at 9pm should be encouraged. But the more I get burned during the reveal and release phase the less I am going to do it which in turn means I will be spending less time and money on Magic. What I think would fix the situation almost entirely with me is one of two things. You could first reduce if not outright cut all teasers for products that will not be practically obtainable. In what way did it serve this product to be announced months ago at the price of 74.99? In no way did the Sylvan Library give me any indication that the Portal Three Kingdoms cards would make it's price go bonkers. Months of excitement and anticipation and luring me in like the successful fisherman you have always been and you are the one to cut the line and let me go? That just seems like bad business to me.
There are only so many times I will allow myself to feel like a fool for getting excited about one of your products. The other thing you could have done was release a premium and limited version just as the product now stands, but then have had a second product that is the rest of the set without the playable cards. Make the oversized cards non-foil, and shift the main selling point to the sleeves, the +/-counters, and the life counter. Price it around $45-55. The oversized cards should be seen as the little bit of extra. Have a slightly higher print run and still only distribute to card specialty shops. Not a lot as you won't move much, but I would buy it and I would be happy. Because it wouldn't be highly sought the limited print run wouldn't hurt as much as the product would be available. Either one of these solutions would have kept me from feeling that Wizards was the Grinch for my Christmas this year. In Christmases past I have found packs of cards in my stockings. This year there will be a big old lump of coal with it.
BTW Thank you Wizards I love the product!
About the guy who said he could get X cards in the set unfoiled for like 30 bucks. You sir must not play Commander. Pimpin is half the fun of playing the dang game!
welcome to the forums.
“I once had an entire race killed just to listen to the rattling of their dried bones as I waded through them.”
—Volrath
Duplicant on the Mothership. It's about 2/3rds down the page. Mind's Eye and Desertion haven't been shown, but Mind's Eye is the only other card with new art. Looks like some awesome RKF foil action, then.
They just printed them in a Planechase 2012 pre-con, damnit
Instead of the P3K cards and those bleepin PC2012 crapfest they would even call commander cards. These would have been better:
Phyrexian Tower - 1st time foil,
Gamble - 1st time foil
Crucible of Worlds alternate art
Worn Powerstone - 1st time foil
Enlightened Tutor - modern frame
Kor Haven - modern frame
Swords to Plowshares - 1st time modern frame foil
Skyshroud Claim - modern frame (bit of a stretch being common but hey Rhystic made it)
Genesis - Modern frame
Worldly Tutor - 1st time foil
Grim tutor - 1st time foil
Scavenging Ooze - future Judge promo
/end of complainin
Reason plain and easy is that they do not exist as foils so far and are made specific for Commander players.
For the discussion of the price.
A product that is in limited supply will allways get more expensive if enough buyers exist.
A shop has a high incentive to actual get the most money out of this product. If they sell it for 75$ they are pretty much just stupid, its not rip off at all, as they can obvisious get a lot more money from it with little to no extra work
If you can't buy the product, no problem, its not that you "need" it, simply wait and possible trade for the cards you really like to have, thats a big part of magic, as its a "collectible" and "trading" card game, not just buy everything you like and thats it.
WUBRG#BlackLotusMatterWUBRG
👮👮👮 #BlueLivesMatter 👮👮👮
Because they haven't been printed in Foil, and some of us are very excited for them.
RRR Khorenthos - The Red Block (Feedback needed!) RRR
Yes, I myself am very interested in the Wanderer
Thanks to Rivenor for the awesome sig!
Wants Bloodbraid Elf banned in modern
:DWish granted as of January 27, 2013!:D
You have the funds to buy three boxes and a fat pack, but not Comm's Arse?
Yes, another list of decks sig.
R Daretti, Scrap Savant
WBR Zurgo Helmsmasher Equipment
BBB Erebos, God of the Dead Goodstuff
UBG The Mimeoplasm
URG All Creatures Animar, Soul of Elements
WB Teysa, Orzhov Scion sac and combo
WUB Sydri, Galvanic Genius
WUG Rafiq of the Many Aggro-Control
UBR Nekusar, The Mindrazer
WRG Mayael, the Anima
Casual:
BB Ad Nauseam Combo
BB Burn
There's already so much value in this product, man. We won. No need for more tears.
This part of the product really screams "we don't know wtf to do, get this **** out the door".
Honestly the whole marketing and design behind this has me scratching my head. First, we had the highly successful and mostly well-designed Commander precons last year. Widely available. Very popular. Quite useful for playing Commander thanks to helpful staples like Sol Ring, Skullclamp, old and new multiplayer-focused cards, and new generals.
Then we suddenly decide to make what sounds like a followup, because we cancelled something else. Instead of being widely available and helpful for playing Commander (something you might expect from a product called "Commander's Arsenal"), it will be super limited, and it will contain-
1) Some of the exact same generals we just sold you in the Precons, except in foil
2) a seemingly random smattering of 9 cards that see play in Commander, including one we just sold you in the Precon
3) two P3K cards that no one really plays and seem mostly out of place, but are technically valuable; because... otherwise this set will sell like dog turds, and we're too lazy to put effort into this
4) three cards from Planechase that we JUST released and no one really cares about... because **** you.
It's so haphazard. It's a mishmash of nonsense that is badly designed and not up to WOTC's standard. There's no theme. It's not "box of Commander Staples" (wooo! 18 cards and I got my staple Dragonlair Spider! woo yeah!). It's not "FTV: P3K". It's not "Random Pimp Commander cards". And it's not "Foil Out That General You Bought Last Year".
It's some arbitrary intersection of all of these.
0 Karn
W Darien
U Arcanis
B Geth
R Norin
G Yeva
UW Hanna
RB Olivia
WB Obzedat
UR Melek
BG Glissa
WR Aurelia
GU Kraj
BRU Nicol Bolas
RGB Prossh
BGW Ghave
GUB Mimeoplasm
WUBRG Sliver Overlord
GWU Treva, the Renewer
EDH Spike:
U Azami, Lady of Scrolls
Trades