At first I thought it said you had to sacrifice the creature at the end of your turn, and I was thinking this is complete trash. Now I see you don't, so I guess it's not totally unplayable. It's just not amazing. A slow 4/4 (with Haste!)
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Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
They nuke the board, and being the red deck that you are, they are at 7 life turn 5-ish, you sac this, searing spear them, and have some reach. Sounds fine.
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I always love this argument of "How is 6 mana over 2 turns at the expense of a land drop good???"
We see this all the time about plenty of different cards. This card is good for decks that are low mana cost. For multiple reasons. One, when you play out your hand, or most of it, in the first few turns, hit turn 4 or so where you've unloaded must of your opening hand, you still have one mana up while putting a counter on this, and have a turn 5 4/4 haster that can serve as a close-out.
1) it's uncounterable
2) it's a good sink for late-game mana when you're full of lands and needing a top-deck.
3) it doesn't use spell-slots in your deck (i.e. it won't hurt you to include it in a mono-red deck, most of the time)
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Modern: G Tron, Vannifar, Jund, Druid/Vizier combo, Humans, Eldrazi Stompy (Serum Powder), Amulet, Grishoalbrand, Breach Titan, Turns, Eternal Command, As Foretold Living End, Elves, Cheerios, RUG Scapeshift
This is a pretty good situational card. Red is not shaping up to be a very powerful control or aggro color in this set but this type of card is a decent one or two of in a Rx aggro deck that you can use to boost yourself if you run out of steam turn 5-6 and on. In a control or midrange deck it is pretty nice however. I ran Gargoyle Castle frequently in RU and UBR control decks when it was standard and it was a great finisher or situational card.
It anyone is thinking of playing this turn two then spending their next three turns charging it up so they can unleash a 9 cmc 4/4 haster on turn 5 that is a really poor use of this card and would cripple any kind of momentum you could possibly gain.
The best use of this card is to charge it at the end of opponents turn, and then once it has two counters save it for when you turn the corner in that control deck and your opponents momentum has been stopped and you achieve board control, you let this guy loose to start turning the tide.
For all those of you who are saying that this card is no good... which of the following is the correct manabase for a hypothetical mono-red deck*?
A) 24 Mountain
OR
B) 22 Mountain, 2 Hellion Crucible
You can't argue that "A" is correct. The "B" manabase lets you play all the same spells at the same time that the "A" manabase does**, but gives you the added versatility of potentially getting extra use out of those lands.
That's the basis of what people mean when they say this card "doesn't cost anything" in terms of deck construction. You get to cut 2 cards that do nothing (Mountains) and add 2 "sometimes make a 4/4 haster", WITHOUT LOSING ANYTHING.
Sure, that 4/4 haster is not going to be a gamebreaker often, but it's nothing to sneeze at in a world where the best deck in standard's biggest creature is a 3/4. Can a control player ever feel comfortable leaving only enough mana open for one piece of removal when you could go "EOT bust the Crucible, untap, play a Hellrider/Hero/Zealous Conscripts"?
*(assuming no RR 2-drops)
**The corner case where your opening hand has exactly 2 land and both are Crucible will only happen about 0.2% of the time (1 of every 500 games).
The mana it produces isn't R
so theres that against it for RDW.
It is nice to be able to leave the mana up and EOT pressure.
UR control, possibly Delver.
opponent isn't sure whether to play into a mana leak, or cancel or dissipate,
or you get closer to hellion.
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It's a land. This means it's essentially free for you to put it into your deck. You don't have to cut any other cards for it. And when it's the last 4 lifepoints your opponents has, 6 mana is perfectly fine price to pay. Actually it's more like 9, since you have to tap this land as well, but it makes no odds whatsoever, because splitting costs over multiple turns pseudo-reduces them, particularly if you don't use your mana for anything else.
This couldn't be more wrong, along with a bunch of other RDW-associated posts in this thread. A RDW deck has no room for wasted time or mana - for every land you use that does not produce R, that is one less R you have every turn for every creature or burn spell you would like to play otherwise. This land requires you to almost time-walk yourself the turn you play it. In order to charge it up, you actually do need to time-walk yourself. Twice. In order to use it, you need to sacrifice one of your lands in order to produce something that can be vapor snagged, O-ringed after one turn, tragic slipped, simply blocked, or any number of things. If you are playing RDW, and you are spending 3 mana to do zero damage in any fashion, then you are failing. This is not a free card for a deck and is not worth the price of "one less R producing land" for a mono red deck that wants to win as quickly as possible.
If anything, this is a control card. You are pumping charge counters into this late game, when you have plenty of extra mana sources, with counter-magic up (or other responses). Being able to produce a beater with a land while you are sitting there preventing your opponent from doing things is an ideal slot for a control deck. However, it is unfortunately red, in a part of standard where Azorius and Esper and MBC have been outshining Grixis or Izzet control for some time. Additionally, Cavern of Souls prevents counter-magic from stopping relevant hexproof creatures, like GoST, that would have to be answered long before this land became relevant to the board state (perhaps Rakdos control could have a go at it).
Whether or not it's a decent control card remains to be seen; it will largely depend on the other red tools available and the RTR dual lands. But this sure as heck doesn't belong in RDW.
For all those of you who are saying that this card is no good... which of the following is the correct manabase for a hypothetical mono-red deck*?
A) 24 Mountain
OR
B) 22 Mountain, 2 Hellion Crucible
This ^ is a great example.
It is a land so it doesn't take up a spell slot and it adds flexibility to your deck. Its not a card you build a deck around, but the benefits of the situational flexibility it adds to have 1 or 2 in a deck outweigh the drawback of possibly slowing you down (as long as you don't have alot of RR or RRR cards in your deck).
Terrible comparison.... Instant speed draw is more powerful because it allows mana up for counters. Instant speed creatures (that your opponent can clearly see coming) aren't that big of a deal.
1. Instant speed making a creature isn't good if it can been seen coming? It's not hard to see a snapcaster or angle coming and they are still pretty good.
2. Red want's to keep mana open to play instant speed burn/destruction to stop equipping or sometimes even stop a timely.
3. UR decks may become a thing.
A 40 dollar mythic rare would constitute a must have 4 of that goes in many decks.
Stats About Mythics
-Mythics are on average 40% rarer than pre-mythic rares
(old blocks about 200 rares, Mythic blocks 35+ mythics)
-They are printing more new cards a year not less
(about 665 now vs. 630 in most pre-mythic block)
-To drop the value of a rare by $1 a mythic must go up $2
-In a 3 year time span deck prices doubled. I am petitioning for the removal of mythic rarity. Sig this to join the cause.
This couldn't be more wrong, along with a bunch of other RDW-associated posts in this thread. A RDW deck has no room for wasted time or mana - for every land you use that does not produce R, that is one less R you have every turn for every creature or burn spell you would like to play otherwise. This land requires you to almost time-walk yourself the turn you play it. In order to charge it up, you actually do need to time-walk yourself. Twice. In order to use it, you need to sacrifice one of your lands in order to produce something that can be vapor snagged, O-ringed after one turn, tragic slipped, simply blocked, or any number of things. If you are playing RDW, and you are spending 3 mana to do zero damage in any fashion, then you are failing. This is not a free card for a deck and is not worth the price of "one less R producing land" for a mono red deck that wants to win as quickly as possible.
If anything, this is a control card. You are pumping charge counters into this late game, when you have plenty of extra mana sources, with counter-magic up (or other responses). Being able to produce a beater with a land while you are sitting there preventing your opponent from doing things is an ideal slot for a control deck. However, it is unfortunately red, in a part of standard where Azorius and Esper and MBC have been outshining Grixis or Izzet control for some time. Additionally, Cavern of Souls prevents counter-magic from stopping relevant hexproof creatures, like GoST, that would have to be answered long before this land became relevant to the board state (perhaps Rakdos control could have a go at it).
Whether or not it's a decent control card remains to be seen; it will largely depend on the other red tools available and the RTR dual lands. But this sure as heck doesn't belong in RDW.
Understand, Dredge is not really a Magic: The Gathering deck. When a card is playable in it, it doesn't mean it's a tournament playable card. It means it's playable in whatever crazy fantasy world that Dredge operates in.
Yeah, I play mono red Rush/Burn in Legacy. Totally putting 2 of these in the deck! Talk about haveing a back up plan
Cyriss07
Legacy??? are you kidding me? It's not a mountain for fireblast, it can't tap for red for ANY of your burn spells which all cost a single red (or suspend for a single red), and it can't level up figure of destiny
Some really ignorant players pontificating on red decks here.
1) red deck =/= RDW. Seriously, stop it.
2) even with RR 2-drops, a 24 land deck can run 2 of these without appreciably hurting its mana production
3) even a RDW deck will eventually have turns where it cannot play a threat; this is another offensive way to spend mana
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both of those tap for R... If this also tapped for red it would be a no brainer. As it is it's underwhelming and can hold you back.
Legacy??? are you kidding me? It's not a mountain for fireblast, it can't tap for red for ANY of your burn spells which all cost a single red (or suspend for a single red), and it can't level up figure of destiny
LOL, I am not to worried. I have room for 2 non-basic lands. Don't run figure of destiny, though have been thinking about it And yeah, it would make me said if it screwed my Fireblast. But I like haveing a back up plan. Hmmm, if it gets that late game though and I need a back up plan, I have probably already lost. DANG IT! You are right. NOT good in my legacy deck To slow, I will stick with my Ghitu Encampment for land beats support.
Some really ignorant players pontificating on red decks here.
1) red deck =/= RDW. Seriously, stop it.
2) even with RR 2-drops, a 24 land deck can run 2 of these without appreciably hurting its mana production
3) even a RDW deck will eventually have turns where it cannot play a threat; this is another offensive way to spend mana
I was on the agreeing side of this until I remembered what it is like to play in a Legacy format. If I have time to build up my Hellion Land, my oponent is already winning.
This card really isn't viable in Legacy. Fireblast needs mountains and not tapping for red means you might not get a second lightning bolt or goblin guide out on one of your turns.
Hmmm....I don't see it. Why exactly is this a good card? 6 mana over 3 turns for a 4/4 haste just doesn't seem worth it to me. Am I missing something here?
Yeah, it seems pretty bad to me too in every format but Limited.
Drop on turn 3, IF no spells or reactive spells played, pressure counter at EOT for opponent.
Turn 4, IF no spells or reactive spells played, pressure counter at EOT for opponent. Only 1 mana spare if land drop made.
Turn 5, IF no spells or reactive spells played, create a 4/4 with haste and left with possibly 2 untapped lands. Why not play Thundermaw Hellkite instead?
Granted, this is both a dream situation and a goldfish scenario, but I'd generally rather make an evasive creature that doesn't require a resource sacrifice.
Some really ignorant players pontificating on red decks here.
1) red deck =/= RDW. Seriously, stop it.
2) even with RR 2-drops, a 24 land deck can run 2 of these without appreciably hurting its mana production
3) even a RDW deck will eventually have turns where it cannot play a threat; this is another offensive way to spend mana
Since the internet age of magic began most players are fixated on established decks. Many online 'pontificaters' apparently assume that the only people who actually make their own decks are ProTour players and 'noobs'. This leads to an abundance of opinions about new cards that only consider how a new card will play in existing decks, and if it is not good enough to replace a card in an established deck then its not good.
Thinking of ways to use new cards and making your own decks can be a really fun part of the game. If you leave all the creativity of the game to ProTour players you are really missing out.
This is a useful card, not in all decks though. But when Hellion Crucible starts showing up in tournament lists people will change their tune.
Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
Melek, Izzet Paragon
Oona, Queen of the Fae
Bruna, Light of Alabaster
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
Rhys the Redeemed
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Sen Triplets
The Mimeoplasm WUBRGSliver OverlordGRBUW WUBRGSliver Hivelord(Superfriends)GRBUW
That aside, I like it! I have a soft spot in my heart lands that spawn creatures. Springjack Pasture forever!
From the OP
EDIT: Nath'd
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W/U Lavinia of the Tenth
G/W Selvala, Explorer Returned
B Mono-black random General
R/G Xenagos, God of Revels
U/B Wydwen the BIting Gale
We see this all the time about plenty of different cards. This card is good for decks that are low mana cost. For multiple reasons. One, when you play out your hand, or most of it, in the first few turns, hit turn 4 or so where you've unloaded must of your opening hand, you still have one mana up while putting a counter on this, and have a turn 5 4/4 haster that can serve as a close-out.
turn 2: mountain memnite volt charge
turn 3: mountain, hellion.
there we go, turn 3 helion
1) it's uncounterable
2) it's a good sink for late-game mana when you're full of lands and needing a top-deck.
3) it doesn't use spell-slots in your deck (i.e. it won't hurt you to include it in a mono-red deck, most of the time)
It anyone is thinking of playing this turn two then spending their next three turns charging it up so they can unleash a 9 cmc 4/4 haster on turn 5 that is a really poor use of this card and would cripple any kind of momentum you could possibly gain.
The best use of this card is to charge it at the end of opponents turn, and then once it has two counters save it for when you turn the corner in that control deck and your opponents momentum has been stopped and you achieve board control, you let this guy loose to start turning the tide.
A) 24 Mountain
OR
B) 22 Mountain, 2 Hellion Crucible
You can't argue that "A" is correct. The "B" manabase lets you play all the same spells at the same time that the "A" manabase does**, but gives you the added versatility of potentially getting extra use out of those lands.
That's the basis of what people mean when they say this card "doesn't cost anything" in terms of deck construction. You get to cut 2 cards that do nothing (Mountains) and add 2 "sometimes make a 4/4 haster", WITHOUT LOSING ANYTHING.
Sure, that 4/4 haster is not going to be a gamebreaker often, but it's nothing to sneeze at in a world where the best deck in standard's biggest creature is a 3/4. Can a control player ever feel comfortable leaving only enough mana open for one piece of removal when you could go "EOT bust the Crucible, untap, play a Hellrider/Hero/Zealous Conscripts"?
*(assuming no RR 2-drops)
**The corner case where your opening hand has exactly 2 land and both are Crucible will only happen about 0.2% of the time (1 of every 500 games).
so theres that against it for RDW.
It is nice to be able to leave the mana up and EOT pressure.
UR control, possibly Delver.
opponent isn't sure whether to play into a mana leak, or cancel or dissipate,
or you get closer to hellion.
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I play limited, casual modern, and keep several standard decks on hand.
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This couldn't be more wrong, along with a bunch of other RDW-associated posts in this thread. A RDW deck has no room for wasted time or mana - for every land you use that does not produce R, that is one less R you have every turn for every creature or burn spell you would like to play otherwise. This land requires you to almost time-walk yourself the turn you play it. In order to charge it up, you actually do need to time-walk yourself. Twice. In order to use it, you need to sacrifice one of your lands in order to produce something that can be vapor snagged, O-ringed after one turn, tragic slipped, simply blocked, or any number of things. If you are playing RDW, and you are spending 3 mana to do zero damage in any fashion, then you are failing. This is not a free card for a deck and is not worth the price of "one less R producing land" for a mono red deck that wants to win as quickly as possible.
If anything, this is a control card. You are pumping charge counters into this late game, when you have plenty of extra mana sources, with counter-magic up (or other responses). Being able to produce a beater with a land while you are sitting there preventing your opponent from doing things is an ideal slot for a control deck. However, it is unfortunately red, in a part of standard where Azorius and Esper and MBC have been outshining Grixis or Izzet control for some time. Additionally, Cavern of Souls prevents counter-magic from stopping relevant hexproof creatures, like GoST, that would have to be answered long before this land became relevant to the board state (perhaps Rakdos control could have a go at it).
Whether or not it's a decent control card remains to be seen; it will largely depend on the other red tools available and the RTR dual lands. But this sure as heck doesn't belong in RDW.
It is a land so it doesn't take up a spell slot and it adds flexibility to your deck. Its not a card you build a deck around, but the benefits of the situational flexibility it adds to have 1 or 2 in a deck outweigh the drawback of possibly slowing you down (as long as you don't have alot of RR or RRR cards in your deck).
Or Gem of Becoming.
1. Instant speed making a creature isn't good if it can been seen coming? It's not hard to see a snapcaster or angle coming and they are still pretty good.
2. Red want's to keep mana open to play instant speed burn/destruction to stop equipping or sometimes even stop a timely.
3. UR decks may become a thing.
Stats About Mythics
-Mythics are on average 40% rarer than pre-mythic rares
(old blocks about 200 rares, Mythic blocks 35+ mythics)
-They are printing more new cards a year not less
(about 665 now vs. 630 in most pre-mythic block)
-To drop the value of a rare by $1 a mythic must go up $2
-In a 3 year time span deck prices doubled.
I am petitioning for the removal of mythic rarity. Sig this to join the cause.
Have you ever played with Keldon Megaliths?
Have you ever played with Ghitu Encampment?
The only thing that could hold back Hellion Crucible from being played in another RDW variant is having 8+ cards that cost RR or RRR.
Modern:
Something new every week
Legacy:
Something new everyweek
Cyriss07
both of those tap for R... If this also tapped for red it would be a no brainer. As it is it's underwhelming and can hold you back.
Legacy??? are you kidding me? It's not a mountain for fireblast, it can't tap for red for ANY of your burn spells which all cost a single red (or suspend for a single red), and it can't level up figure of destiny
1) red deck =/= RDW. Seriously, stop it.
2) even with RR 2-drops, a 24 land deck can run 2 of these without appreciably hurting its mana production
3) even a RDW deck will eventually have turns where it cannot play a threat; this is another offensive way to spend mana
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LOL, I am not to worried. I have room for 2 non-basic lands. Don't run figure of destiny, though have been thinking about it And yeah, it would make me said if it screwed my Fireblast. But I like haveing a back up plan. Hmmm, if it gets that late game though and I need a back up plan, I have probably already lost. DANG IT! You are right. NOT good in my legacy deck To slow, I will stick with my Ghitu Encampment for land beats support.
Cyriss07
I was on the agreeing side of this until I remembered what it is like to play in a Legacy format. If I have time to build up my Hellion Land, my oponent is already winning.
Cyriss07
Yeah, it seems pretty bad to me too in every format but Limited.
Drop on turn 3, IF no spells or reactive spells played, pressure counter at EOT for opponent.
Turn 4, IF no spells or reactive spells played, pressure counter at EOT for opponent. Only 1 mana spare if land drop made.
Turn 5, IF no spells or reactive spells played, create a 4/4 with haste and left with possibly 2 untapped lands. Why not play Thundermaw Hellkite instead?
Granted, this is both a dream situation and a goldfish scenario, but I'd generally rather make an evasive creature that doesn't require a resource sacrifice.
Thinking of ways to use new cards and making your own decks can be a really fun part of the game. If you leave all the creativity of the game to ProTour players you are really missing out.
This is a useful card, not in all decks though. But when Hellion Crucible starts showing up in tournament lists people will change their tune.
Bah, who needs to waste a Stifle on this?
Just Unsummon the damned thing the second it emerges
(seriously, enough OMG,UNCOUNTERABLE!!1!!1
The same color that can't counter it can easily murder it with a one CMC spell)
This just seems like another weird, slow creature in the vein of Slumbering Dragon.
Reprint Stasis!
Control needs more love.
EDH:
Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
Melek, Izzet Paragon
Oona, Queen of the Fae
Bruna, Light of Alabaster
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
Rhys the Redeemed
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Sen Triplets
The Mimeoplasm
WUBRGSliver OverlordGRBUW
WUBRGSliver Hivelord(Superfriends)GRBUW
Agreed