I played a game with my Modern deck against a deck from classic, I think it was a GW aggro deck. He drew very bad, had bad luck, etc, but won the game exclusively thanks to jitte. Not saying it shouldn't be unbanned because of this, it's just an example.
IMO, jitte should be unbanned if half or more of the ban list was lifted... only.
Completely agree, it may not be good against every deck in the format but it's too good at winning games pretty much on it's own against creature based decks. With modern being a very aggro heavy format it would be too good and probably completely change the meta on it's own. I often see people arguing that it's safe to come off because the swords don't cause any problems in the format, but the people making those arguments don't realize how much worse than Jitte the swords are, especially without Stoneforge in the mix.
That being said, I expect all deck manipulation that puts cards on top of a deck to be eliminated or the overly powered miracle cards that can be abuse with it to be gone, one or the other.
I am not saying you are right or wrong, but doesn't that smack of terrible design? Lets print some cards (have not counted how many miracle cards there are) who's presence means we will surely have to ban as many or more cards to keep the new cards from warping a meta. That makes me think that in their testing they found that there was not as much of a broken interaction as people anticipate, but I also look at some of them and are shocked at the power-level. I am waiting till they get some wider testing to make a final judgment, but they worry me.
I am not saying you are right or wrong, but doesn't that smack of terrible design? Lets print some cards (have not counted how many miracle cards there are) who's presence means we will surely have to ban as many or more cards to keep the new cards from warping a meta. That makes me think that in their testing they found that there was not as much of a broken interaction as people anticipate, but I also look at some of them and are shocked at the power-level. I am waiting till they get some wider testing to make a final judgment, but they worry me.
Sometimes I feel like they don't mind banning old cards if it means they can print new cards that sell product. It's most likely that they miss things in testing, but sometimes I wonder if they saw it and just went with it to sell product. Like when they planned to print an event deck with 2x Stoneforge mystic knowing that they're printing batterskull which is too obvious of a broken interaction to miss. That just screamed let's make money off of this before we ban it.
About miracles, I think it could maybe go either way. They could either flop because they're inconsistent or be completely broken. I'm not really sure because I haven't been trying them in decks and I'm probably not the best person to be a judge on it anyway even if I were trying them out. I'd like to see how some of them perform in a list that runs Magma Jet, Condescend and other cards that manipulate the top of your library. Some sort of RUG tempo or UR delver.
Reforge the Soul is pretty insane, I've managed to cast it 6+ times in one game with PiF so I wouldn't be hugely surprised if it gets banned. I say its borderline too good in Modern because you're basically about 1 ritual short of pushing the deck firmly to being a turn 2-3 deck.
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On Mono Black in Commander:
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But whomever your commander is, Cabal Coffers is really in charge.
So... let's talk about Gifts Ungiven. Does it bother anyone else that this card is essentially a one-card combo? Unburial Iona means that they win if I'm playing Burn, but I'm wondering if other decks have better ways to deal with this even if their main removal color gets named?
Especially since it was clearly never intended to function in the way it currently functions (as a 2-card Buried Alive for spells), and Wizards doesn't do power-level errata any more, I feel like Gifts is a prime candidate for a banning. The real question is if it warps the format. Is Tron actually dominant enough for it to matter?
It's decidedly not a combo in and of itself. It grabs the combo, which can be countered or exiled from the yard in response. Not a lot of great answers, granted. It's just really stupid that you can find fewer than 4 cards with it.
They should change the rules so that it's only possible to fetch less than 4 if your library contains less than 4.
They can't change this, because of cards like Rampant Growth. What happens if you cast Rampant Growth but you forgot you have no basics left in your deck? You are required to show your deck to your opponent to prove it? I don't think they will be changing the fail-to-find rule any time soon.
Or they should allow opponents to choose fewer than two cards. It's wonky as it is.
That would be a power-level errata, which they don't do any more, mostly because it's confusing when cards don't do what they say they do. Wizards' new solution to power-level errata is to just ban the card. See Flash.
It's decidedly not a combo in and of itself. It grabs the combo, which can be countered or exiled from the yard in response. Not a lot of great answers, granted. It's just really stupid that you can find fewer than 4 cards with it.
I'm aware that Gifts itself doesn't win you the game when you cast it, and you can counter or exile stuff to stop it, but my point was that you don't have to dig for multiple cards to "go off". You don't have to Faithless Looting, Mulch, Serum Visions or whatever to get your hand/graveyard sculpted. All you have to do is Gifts, and everything is ready to go. If they banned Ponder and Preordain for making Storm too consistent, and Gifts is a one-card consistency engine, I feel like it really deserves the banhammer.
On top of its combo power, it's played in a control deck. It's not like Storm, where they straight up lose if you counter their Seething Song, or just Mindbreak Trap their Grapeshot. It also doesn't require the entire deck to be built around it like Storm. It's a no-brainer to just cram in 4 Gifts, Unburial and a fatty toolbox into any UW deck. UW Tron can still just hardcast Karn or something equally ridiculous if you counter their Unburial Rites or Surgical Iona or whatever.
They can't change this, because of cards like Rampant Growth. What happens if you cast Rampant Growth but you forgot you have no basics left in your deck? You are required to show your deck to your opponent to prove it?
I don't think that is so bad a solution. It is better than the current state of things.
That would be a power-level errata, which they don't do any more, mostly because it's confusing when cards don't do what they say they do.
Uh, but does it really do what it says. Every person I have talked to about this card had no idea you could do this until I told them, and I had no idea for years either. If the possibilities intrinsic with the card are not clear to most players who read the card, then is it really doing exactly what it says?
I'm aware that Gifts itself doesn't win you the game when you cast it, and you can counter or exile stuff to stop it, but my point was that you don't have to dig for multiple cards to "go off". You don't have to Faithless Looting, Mulch, Serum Visions or whatever to get your hand/graveyard sculpted. All you have to do is Gifts, and everything is ready to go. If they banned Ponder and Preordain for making Storm too consistent, and Gifts is a one-card consistency engine, I feel like it really deserves the banhammer.
I really think this is another situation where people are not looking at all the possibilities. Actually, it seems to me like every call for a ban lately can be dealt with pretty easily by graveyard hate, so I have no clue why it is not being used more. Sure, Grafdigger's Cage and Leyline of the Void are not the best card when it comes to tempo, but sometimes you have take a little hit in order to succeed over a certain strategy.
I really think that Herbal Poultice needs the axe. I mean come on, it's called Herbal Poultice Deck Wins for a reason!
I personally have a pretty big distaste for Tron as a deck myself, maybe it stems from my hatred of Eldrazi and the shameless fanservice of the Karn planeswalker (and how ridiculous his abilities are) but as much as it irks me it's not an unbeatable deck.
UW and UR Tron... they are not my favorite type of tron (I liked the old extended ones) but they are okay IMO.
RG Tron is stupid but not bannable.
Hey yo, a little star over here, a stirrings over there, and oh! Karn! Here comes dah maainnnnzlaverz!
I've only lost to Tron when I keep bad hands with no disruption. A Ghost Quarter and Extirpate is usually enough to clock that deck. Often enough that deck just loses to itself though.
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Legacy Decks
~~~~~~~~~
Too many to list efficiently. Find me online with the same SN if you want to play, or message me here to set up a time to play.
Modern
~~~~~~~~~
Whatever pile of 75 I throw together the night before without testing. Usually: :symb::symu::symg:
The only version of tron that I've had trouble with is the one that goes turn 3 gifts into rites/iona. Other than that I find tron isn't able to stabilize fast enough, unless I draw a bad hand.
The only version of tron that I've had trouble with is the one that goes turn 3 gifts into rites/iona. Other than that I find tron isn't able to stabilize fast enough, unless I draw a bad hand.
Even that is easy to hate out with Tormod's Crypt and Relic.
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Legacy Decks
~~~~~~~~~
Too many to list efficiently. Find me online with the same SN if you want to play, or message me here to set up a time to play.
Modern
~~~~~~~~~
Whatever pile of 75 I throw together the night before without testing. Usually: :symb::symu::symg:
I am not saying you are right or wrong, but doesn't that smack of terrible design? Lets print some cards (have not counted how many miracle cards there are) who's presence means we will surely have to ban as many or more cards to keep the new cards from warping a meta. That makes me think that in their testing they found that there was not as much of a broken interaction as people anticipate, but I also look at some of them and are shocked at the power-level. I am waiting till they get some wider testing to make a final judgment, but they worry me.
The way I see it is they make new sets for limited and Standard. They can ban or more or less adjust older formats to the power level they wish. Whats perfectly fine in Standard can be totally broken in older formats. So, if the miracle cards work fine in Standard (especially since ponder could get the axe in the rotation) they can ban or adjust Modern or Legacy as they feel fit. If they were going to try and make cards work in all formats, Standard would be the slowest, most boring format of them all and it would be hard to keep the masses interested in it.
By the way, all its going to take is 1 of the miracle cards to be completely busted in some way and they will ban something IMHO.
I think its just too easy to see the best case scenario with miracles. At the end of the day they are just spells like any other, just potentially mana saving not even free! If you build your deck to set them up to get value congratulations you made a deck, just like others that set up to take advantage of Splinter Twin, Gifts, Loam, BBE or even Delver. Time walk is powerful but if you dont have pressure or planes walkers on the board its not as good, its that second attack step that makes it amazing and not just explore. Lots of durdeling to set up just for some value not even to win the game outright.
Edit: Oh yes and I wanted to comment on graveyard hate, I was super hoping for a land that did this. "Tap add 1 Tap 1 Exile target card from a graveyard" is not to powerful, card advantage from yard abilities are mostly incidental any how. The problem is all these narrow slotted artifacts even if they cantrip you need them at the right time, and otherwise do nothing. Its so easy to get massive value from the yard it should be just as easy to thwart it.
The way I see it is they make new sets for limited and Standard. They can ban or more or less adjust older formats to the power level they wish.
They have that philosophy with regard to eternal formats, but MaRo has said that Modern is part of their balancing process. Sure, they have shown themselves as quick to ban in Modern, but so far only in the case of cards from previous sets.
ID+A, however, was designed without knowledge of Modern, now that I think about it, so it actually falls outside that paradigm.
The problem is all these narrow slotted artifacts even if they cantrip you need them at the right time, and otherwise do nothing. Its so easy to get massive value from the yard it should be just as easy to thwart it.
Most reactive or prophylactic cards have to be available at the right time, Doom Blade does not do much good against a BW deck unless you draw it when your opponent has a white creature in play, that does not make them bad or unplayable. Grave hate artifacts are narrow, in that they only deal with graveyard decks, but there are so many flavors of them in the metagame that they become much less narrow.
I see it like that: Everything that isn't played MB is narrow. There aren't enough decks that utilise graveyard to a great extend, to justify gy hate MB, especially because the gy hate doesn't do much against other decks.
For most metas you are correct- GY hate is something you put in the SB, but I have also run 4x Void MD, and have been very pleased with the results. I built with it in mind, so it was rarely a dead card game one, and if I don't need it I have other toys in my SB. I think that if you are looking at decks tier 2 and better you have a significant percentage of the general metagame that relies in the grave, but I will say agian that it is probably safer to put the hate in the SB.
Relic's cantrip ability makes it not so painful to throw in your md. with all the goyfs/knights running around, as well as decks that interact with the graveyard it seems like gy hate isnt that ridiculous to have in the main.
I've tested with the miracle card in Legacy and temporal mastery isn't all that fantastic. Seriously.
Reforge the Soul on the other hand is really, really good. But, if you can barely abuse these cards in Legacy then there's virtually no possibility of it being done consistently in modern with Ponder, Preordain, Jace and Sen's Top being banned. That's just silly to assume. Plus, it takes two turns to set these cards up anyway, and with the speed of modern's aggro deck's setting two turns up just to take an extra turn is counter productive and pretty awful imo. There will be occasions where your opponent will sack you and just top deck into one of the powerful miracle cards, namely Reforge the Soul and Terminus, and this will be frustrating; but so is Bloodbraid Elf into Blightning or Snapcaster Mage into Cryptic Command and other annoying two card interactions.
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By: ol MISAKA lo
Cockatrice: Infallible
Mhjames: mtgsalvation: I DON'T SEE HOW THIS CARD IS GOOD. I KNOW PATRICK CHAPIN USED IT AND WENT 8-0, BUT THAT WAS A SMALL TOURNAMENT. THE CARD IS TOO SLOW. YOU NEED TO MAKE SURE THE OPPONENT HAS A SPELL IN THE GRAVEYARD
a 5cmc Wheel of Fortune is good regardless of you getting the miracle cost for it or not.
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By: ol MISAKA lo
Cockatrice: Infallible
Mhjames: mtgsalvation: I DON'T SEE HOW THIS CARD IS GOOD. I KNOW PATRICK CHAPIN USED IT AND WENT 8-0, BUT THAT WAS A SMALL TOURNAMENT. THE CARD IS TOO SLOW. YOU NEED TO MAKE SURE THE OPPONENT HAS A SPELL IN THE GRAVEYARD
I really think that Herbal Poultice needs the axe. I mean come on, it's called Herbal Poultice Deck Wins for a reason!
Man, I remember that whole thing. It has to be my favourite MTGS joke. Was it 56 Herbal Poultice and 4 Tarmogoyf, which always won because it was running 4 goyf? I think it was, and in theory it could not get dqed because it by definition won every game as it played 4 goyf
I think there's a lesson to be learned from that: Tarmogoyf is not too good for modern. There are plenty of very efficient creatures in modern. There has to be one that's the best (and you could even put forward a case for some of the other creatures in modern over it). It doesn't deserve a ban, it's not making any single deck degenerate.
Completely agree, it may not be good against every deck in the format but it's too good at winning games pretty much on it's own against creature based decks. With modern being a very aggro heavy format it would be too good and probably completely change the meta on it's own. I often see people arguing that it's safe to come off because the swords don't cause any problems in the format, but the people making those arguments don't realize how much worse than Jitte the swords are, especially without Stoneforge in the mix.
Reprint Opt for Modern!!
FREE DIG THOROUGH TIME!
PLAY MORE ROUGE DECKS!
Sometimes I feel like they don't mind banning old cards if it means they can print new cards that sell product. It's most likely that they miss things in testing, but sometimes I wonder if they saw it and just went with it to sell product. Like when they planned to print an event deck with 2x Stoneforge mystic knowing that they're printing batterskull which is too obvious of a broken interaction to miss. That just screamed let's make money off of this before we ban it.
About miracles, I think it could maybe go either way. They could either flop because they're inconsistent or be completely broken. I'm not really sure because I haven't been trying them in decks and I'm probably not the best person to be a judge on it anyway even if I were trying them out. I'd like to see how some of them perform in a list that runs Magma Jet, Condescend and other cards that manipulate the top of your library. Some sort of RUG tempo or UR delver.
Especially since it was clearly never intended to function in the way it currently functions (as a 2-card Buried Alive for spells), and Wizards doesn't do power-level errata any more, I feel like Gifts is a prime candidate for a banning. The real question is if it warps the format. Is Tron actually dominant enough for it to matter?
Proud member of Fires Rf Salvation
Currently Playing:
BPack RatB
Modern:
WURRWU ControlRUW
Legacy:
UHigh TideU
UGTurbo EldraziGU
EDH:
RWURuhan Planeswalker ControlUWR
RGBProssh, Skyraider of KherBGR
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They can't change this, because of cards like Rampant Growth. What happens if you cast Rampant Growth but you forgot you have no basics left in your deck? You are required to show your deck to your opponent to prove it? I don't think they will be changing the fail-to-find rule any time soon.
That would be a power-level errata, which they don't do any more, mostly because it's confusing when cards don't do what they say they do. Wizards' new solution to power-level errata is to just ban the card. See Flash.
I'm aware that Gifts itself doesn't win you the game when you cast it, and you can counter or exile stuff to stop it, but my point was that you don't have to dig for multiple cards to "go off". You don't have to Faithless Looting, Mulch, Serum Visions or whatever to get your hand/graveyard sculpted. All you have to do is Gifts, and everything is ready to go. If they banned Ponder and Preordain for making Storm too consistent, and Gifts is a one-card consistency engine, I feel like it really deserves the banhammer.
On top of its combo power, it's played in a control deck. It's not like Storm, where they straight up lose if you counter their Seething Song, or just Mindbreak Trap their Grapeshot. It also doesn't require the entire deck to be built around it like Storm. It's a no-brainer to just cram in 4 Gifts, Unburial and a fatty toolbox into any UW deck. UW Tron can still just hardcast Karn or something equally ridiculous if you counter their Unburial Rites or Surgical Iona or whatever.
Proud member of Fires Rf Salvation
Currently Playing:
BPack RatB
Modern:
WURRWU ControlRUW
Legacy:
UHigh TideU
UGTurbo EldraziGU
EDH:
RWURuhan Planeswalker ControlUWR
RGBProssh, Skyraider of KherBGR
Uh, but does it really do what it says. Every person I have talked to about this card had no idea you could do this until I told them, and I had no idea for years either. If the possibilities intrinsic with the card are not clear to most players who read the card, then is it really doing exactly what it says?
I really think this is another situation where people are not looking at all the possibilities. Actually, it seems to me like every call for a ban lately can be dealt with pretty easily by graveyard hate, so I have no clue why it is not being used more. Sure, Grafdigger's Cage and Leyline of the Void are not the best card when it comes to tempo, but sometimes you have take a little hit in order to succeed over a certain strategy.
Reprint Opt for Modern!!
FREE DIG THOROUGH TIME!
PLAY MORE ROUGE DECKS!
How does everyone feel about the tron lands. Yes, much much less consistent than cloud post, but I'm wondering how people feel about it.
I personally have a pretty big distaste for Tron as a deck myself, maybe it stems from my hatred of Eldrazi and the shameless fanservice of the Karn planeswalker (and how ridiculous his abilities are) but as much as it irks me it's not an unbeatable deck.
RG Tron is stupid but not bannable.
Hey yo, a little star over here, a stirrings over there, and oh! Karn! Here comes dah maainnnnzlaverz!
~~~~~~~~~
Too many to list efficiently. Find me online with the same SN if you want to play, or message me here to set up a time to play.
Modern
~~~~~~~~~
Whatever pile of 75 I throw together the night before without testing. Usually: :symb::symu::symg:
Even that is easy to hate out with Tormod's Crypt and Relic.
~~~~~~~~~
Too many to list efficiently. Find me online with the same SN if you want to play, or message me here to set up a time to play.
Modern
~~~~~~~~~
Whatever pile of 75 I throw together the night before without testing. Usually: :symb::symu::symg:
The way I see it is they make new sets for limited and Standard. They can ban or more or less adjust older formats to the power level they wish. Whats perfectly fine in Standard can be totally broken in older formats. So, if the miracle cards work fine in Standard (especially since ponder could get the axe in the rotation) they can ban or adjust Modern or Legacy as they feel fit. If they were going to try and make cards work in all formats, Standard would be the slowest, most boring format of them all and it would be hard to keep the masses interested in it.
By the way, all its going to take is 1 of the miracle cards to be completely busted in some way and they will ban something IMHO.
Edit: Oh yes and I wanted to comment on graveyard hate, I was super hoping for a land that did this. "Tap add 1 Tap 1 Exile target card from a graveyard" is not to powerful, card advantage from yard abilities are mostly incidental any how. The problem is all these narrow slotted artifacts even if they cantrip you need them at the right time, and otherwise do nothing. Its so easy to get massive value from the yard it should be just as easy to thwart it.
ID+A, however, was designed without knowledge of Modern, now that I think about it, so it actually falls outside that paradigm.
Most reactive or prophylactic cards have to be available at the right time, Doom Blade does not do much good against a BW deck unless you draw it when your opponent has a white creature in play, that does not make them bad or unplayable. Grave hate artifacts are narrow, in that they only deal with graveyard decks, but there are so many flavors of them in the metagame that they become much less narrow.
Reprint Opt for Modern!!
FREE DIG THOROUGH TIME!
PLAY MORE ROUGE DECKS!
Reprint Opt for Modern!!
FREE DIG THOROUGH TIME!
PLAY MORE ROUGE DECKS!
Reforge the Soul on the other hand is really, really good. But, if you can barely abuse these cards in Legacy then there's virtually no possibility of it being done consistently in modern with Ponder, Preordain, Jace and Sen's Top being banned. That's just silly to assume. Plus, it takes two turns to set these cards up anyway, and with the speed of modern's aggro deck's setting two turns up just to take an extra turn is counter productive and pretty awful imo. There will be occasions where your opponent will sack you and just top deck into one of the powerful miracle cards, namely Reforge the Soul and Terminus, and this will be frustrating; but so is Bloodbraid Elf into Blightning or Snapcaster Mage into Cryptic Command and other annoying two card interactions.
By: ol MISAKA lo
Cockatrice: Infallible
By: ol MISAKA lo
Cockatrice: Infallible
Man, I remember that whole thing. It has to be my favourite MTGS joke. Was it 56 Herbal Poultice and 4 Tarmogoyf, which always won because it was running 4 goyf? I think it was, and in theory it could not get dqed because it by definition won every game as it played 4 goyf
I think there's a lesson to be learned from that: Tarmogoyf is not too good for modern. There are plenty of very efficient creatures in modern. There has to be one that's the best (and you could even put forward a case for some of the other creatures in modern over it). It doesn't deserve a ban, it's not making any single deck degenerate.
Draft it on Cubetutor!