So you want all control mirrors all the time with no aggro control? Wow, maybe they should just change the requirement to every deck having to run 10 Islands too?
Ok fair enough.Am i the only one thinking that in a few days wotc will ban almost every
serious combo out of the format only not to lose the support of the people who simply
dont want combo to exist?
Line breaks! Seriously, what's the deal?
But no, they won't start banning combo. Anyone with half a brain and Modern experience can tell you, if 12post eats a ban, then Control gets better, making Combo worse. Unban JTMS, as it's too slow for the format anyway, ban Glimmerpost/Vesuva, to make 12post more vulnerable, and suddenly the format has less 12post, more control, less combo, and more midrange. Ta-dah!
If they ban 12post I'll try to adapt it to RG urzatron with 10-12 walls, firespout, punishing fire main.
If they ban 12post, then control is suddenly good. And if they try that, then Control can just run tons of sweeps, as they already do. I've played against RG Urzatron decks, it's not that good.
People give the "easily hated out" excuse for everything.
Except it works. Remember kids, ANY deck can run Thorn of Amethysy. Or Pithing Needle. Or Mindbreak Trap. There's a reason why Dredge decks don't eat bans in Legacy. The deck is incredibly strong and explosive, with good stability, but 4 slots of SB hate (which also happen to be splash hate for much of that format) can put the deck in check.
"You can just do this" is a weak, hollow argument that doesn't at all address the real issue: this deck can (and will) go off on turns one or two. It may not often, but as many times as it does is that many times too many. You should NEVER lose a game on turn one in this format because of a lucky Storm player. Magic is a game of skill as much as it is chance and Storm takes away any chance you may have at keeping things on an even keel. If they get lucky, chances are you could have all skill in the world and would still have no choice but to scoop 'em up and go home.
Moreover, with the upcoming red Yawgmoth's Will and Thiago Chan's card it will only get even more absurd.
If they ban 12post, then control is suddenly good. And if they try that, then Control can just run tons of sweeps, as they already do. I've played against RG Urzatron decks, it's not that good.
"You can just do this" is a weak, hollow argument that doesn't at all address the real issue: this deck can (and will) go off on turns one or two. It may not often, but as many times as it does is that many times too many. You should NEVER lose a game on turn one in this format because of a lucky Storm player. Magic is a game of skill as much as it is chance and Storm takes away any chance you may have at keeping things on an even keel. If they get lucky, chances are you could have all skill in the world and would still have no choice but to scoop 'em up and go home.
Moreover, with the upcoming red Yawgmoth's Will and Thiago Chan's card it will only get even more absurd.
If you lose to Storm on Turn 1, I'd be amazed. Let's see, Mountain->Rite of Flame->Rite of Flame->Seething Song->rite of flame->rite of flame->Dragonstorm? I mean, there's a maybe another way to do it, but uh...well, that's all 7 cards, and I dunno if it can be done without MASSIVE amounts of luck. Like, less than a couple percentage points of the time.
I've played against it on 'Trice a few times. It's not as fast as 12post when it tries to just be 12post, and loses. The RG Urzatron-Board Control version is pretty good, but I wouldn't even call it tier 1.5 in the future-future league.
None of those are real combos except dragonstorm. They are all Janky as **** and not interesting to play.
What good is a combo deck if at some point around turn 6 they almost go off? Turn 6 is dead in this format with "fair" decks like Zoo running around.
I am not sure what builds of these decks you are testing. The combo in this format that is not going to get banned (the decks I posted a few pages ago) all have a highly consistent turn 4 win. In fact, many of them capable of turn 3 wins and basically all of them resilient enough to hold out until turn 4. Admittedly, some decks on that list (like Restore Balance and maybe Living End) just aren't that amazing in the current metagame, especially if Affinity can sacrifice all of its creatures in response to a Living End to ensure they are all back. But the majority of those decks are still highly viable, and they will get their time on the tournament scene in the months to come.
At some point (about 30 pages ago) people started complaining about combo for no real reason. Sure it did well at Philly, but nothing was there to put in check.
Perhaps if 12post wasnt stomping around all the control decks, then Grapeshot could have to fight to win on turn 3/4.
Think about what the real problem is here. Combo is only doing so well because there isn't any real opposition to it.
You are totally, 100% correct, and I have been stating this for pages and pages now. The problem is that Wizards and R&D are NOT going to see it like this, and they are not going to let combo escape unscathed in this round of bannings. SHOULD they let it go? I think so. I think that the only card that needs a ban in the whole format is Twelvepost, and everything else will sort itself out.
But Mr. Forsythe, head of R&D, has strongly hinted that a lot of cards are going to get banhammered on this coming Tuesday. Given his hatred of storm, his hatred of turn 2 wins, and his hatred of format stagnation, I am guessing that Grapeshot, Blazing Shoal, Splinter Twin, and Cloudpost are all getting axed. Rite of Flame, Empty the Warrens, and Pyromancer's Ascension are also all options, but I think these are less likely.
Overall, the Modern format is going to be just fine after a wave of Tuesday bannings. Some archetypes will fall, but in their place, others are going to rise. The format as a whole is going to continue to grow in popularity, and its decks will continue to develop and mature. There is nothing that Wizards would REASONABLY ban that would destroy the format. The only place to go from here is up.
Well I have bought the entire elf aggro deck for a few tix in case they ban my 12post.deck. Joraga warcaller is gonna get expensive if they ban left and right.
I personally don’t have a problem with storm but the issue is that it wins like latest turn 3. WotC set boundaries to the format, when they first announced it, expressing that they didn’t want decks to win before turn 3, that’s why Hypergenesis and Dark Depths etc. are on the banned list. The way I see it is either the ultra fast and problematic decks should either get cards banned or they may as well legalise the entire banned list. I’d be happier if they stuck to their original promise of keeping to the 4 turn kills philosophy because it would be better for the majority of players (currently it’s a format that’s as fast as Legacy but doesn’t have close to the amount of answers) but for my part I’d be okay with it either way.
The only reason storm is fast is because there isn't a single deck out there to that plays COUNTERSPELLS.
Picture t3 for a storm player. Tap mana > Rite > Desperate > Seething Song...
MANA LEAK? OMG. GG
12post is the real problem here. Storm isn't fast if it has to work around control decks, and control decks just aren't happening.
Please people, stop being idiots just because you have once lost to a storm deck.
THIS 100X!!! If you don't agree with this then there is no amount of logic that will ever convince you that good, non-oppressive, combos should be allowed. If you don't agree with it then just don't play this game, and you certainly shouldn't feel entitled to make any comment on ban lists ever.
Please people, stop being idiots just because you have once lost to a storm deck.
Real classy.
At any rate, I eagerly await Tuesday's announcement. I'm certain that something will change, and I'm hoping that is the legality of Emrakul and Blazing Shoal.
i am just now dipping my feet into modern, coming in off of a 4 year break from MtG, anything in white looking at getting the axe? im slowly building parfait.
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Vintage-Shops/BUG/Dredge Legacy-Death and Taxes/Nic Fit
Thanks to Heroes of the Plane Studios for the amazing sig!
Grapeshot Warrens involves WAY MORE THAN THAT. It involves 3 or so Rites, 4 Manamorphose, 4 Gitaxian Probes, and a few swathes+grapeshot. I decided it was more logical to assume it was DS, which "only" needs 7 cards for t1 kill.
At some point (about 30 pages ago) people started complaining about combo for no real reason. Sure it did well at Philly, but nothing was there to put in check.
Perhaps if 12post wasnt stomping around all the control decks, then Grapeshot could have to fight to win on turn 3/4.
Think about what the real problem is here. Combo is only doing so well because there isn't any real opposition to it.
You are totally, 100% correct, and I have been stating this for pages and pages now. The problem is that Wizards and R&D are NOT going to see it like this, and they are not going to let combo escape unscathed in this round of bannings. SHOULD they let it go? I think so. I think that the only card that needs a ban in the whole format is Twelvepost, and everything else will sort itself out.
But Mr. Forsythe, head of R&D, has strongly hinted that a lot of cards are going to get banhammered on this coming Tuesday. Given his hatred of storm, his hatred of turn 2 wins, and his hatred of format stagnation, I am guessing that Grapeshot, Blazing Shoal, Splinter Twin, and Cloudpost are all getting axed. Rite of Flame, Empty the Warrens, and Pyromancer's Ascension are also all options, but I think these are less likely.
I couldn't agree more. I wish they would just try banning cloudpost and see where that puts the meta. I'd assume R&D know that many players feel this way. Doesn't seem like there's anything we can do about it, though. I've played a ton of storm vs control and its really hard. I'd say i win roughly 1/6 games, and post sideboard it gets worse when they bring in targeted discard. At this point i feel like R&D is making things different for differences sake, not because they think it will actually make the format less oppressive. almost like saying "Look, don't worry, we'll shake up the whole format. It'll be better, see? Please don't stop playing... Give it a chance.... please....? ...If you come back, there'll be cake..."
Turn 1 on the draw, assuming they've taken a shock from a dual:
Rite rite rite swath any spell grapeshot.
Or failing that:
Rite rite rite swath grapeshot grapeshot
Not saying this happens often, but it's far from impossible.
Also, why should fair decks be forced to have blue for counters just so they don't lose to fast combo?
IMO combo is fine as long as they can't win before turn 3. That way a fair deck on the draw can at least drop canonist/thorn and actually play a game. Obviously this only works against storm, but storm is the easiest way to win turn 1 or 2. Before someone mentions Mindbreak trap, I'll point out that it's a terrible way to stop combo, considering most UR combo has Probes.
Banning are not going to fix the format. Simply the card pool for modern is too large and is missing key control cards. Modern is the first Eternal format without FoW and we see the result. I truly believe that wizards has two options. Ban 10+ cards in the format to allow aggro / control to exist or reprint some sort of free counter magic that can deal with combo. I rather if wizards would reprint FoW or a similar card thus allowing these decks to exist but to put breaks on the format so it never gets out of hand.
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Current Legacy Decks
0USpiral Tide0U
UWU/W 'Miracle Top' Control UW
012 Post 0
Random Opponent: Playing against 12 Post Feels like trying to win in Yugioh with no super secret rares.
Hopefully they just ban Cloudpost or one of the other posts if they don't want to straight-up kill the deck (They probably don't care about that though since they killed many other archetypes with the previous bans).
Like LSV said, banning Blazing Shoal is simply embarassing. I hope we're not so bad at this game we really need that terrible card banned. Shoal Infect is not a very good deck when people are actually prepared for the matchup.
I guess WotC might feel obligated to ban it because of their stupid "no consistent wins before turn 4" policy but I hardly feel like Shoal Infect is that consistent.
if top 8 has over 50% has a blue card, then blue is too strong and need to be banned more cards
So by your justification, force of will needs to be banned in legacy, as it is in well over 50% of top 8 decklists in most to all of the legacy scg opens as 4-ofs.
If a card is 32/32 in many top 8s in a row, i can understand the argument. 50% just means its a strong card. Heck, blue is a strong color. Due to the way countering spells and drawing cards works, that's sort of how it is. Many of the lists have nothing to do with one another, just that they all play FoW.
Banning are not going to fix the format. Simply the card pool for modern is too large and is missing key control cards. Modern is the first Eternal format without FoW and we see the result. I truly believe that wizards has two options. Ban 10+ cards in the format to allow aggro / control to exist or reprint some sort of free counter magic that can deal with combo. I rather if wizards would reprint FoW or a similar card thus allowing these decks to exist but to put breaks on the format so it never gets out of hand.
I disagree with this thinking. FOW is not needed to make the format healthy. Some players have been spoiled playing with certain cards in eternal formats for so long. The proper bannings will eventually get us there, but its going to take time. Everyone just needs to relax.
I disagree with this thinking. FOW is not needed to make the format healthy. Some players have been spoiled playing with certain cards in eternal formats for so long. The proper bannings will eventually get us there, but its going to take time. Everyone just needs to relax.
Definitely agree here, FoW isn't really needed that much, most of the combo decks that are running wild are glass cannons and will lose to any sort of disruption. The real problem at the moment is the complete absence of control from the metagame which can be attributed to the presence of 12Post.
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On Mono Black in Commander:
Quote from BlackJack68 »
But whomever your commander is, Cabal Coffers is really in charge.
So by your justification, force of will needs to be banned in legacy, as it is in well over 50% of top 8 decklists in most to all of the legacy scg opens as 4-ofs.
if modern is same as legacy, then why we need play a new format. just play back legacy is ok.
blue wil continue has cards be banned to keep modern is different from legacy
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So you want all control mirrors all the time with no aggro control? Wow, maybe they should just change the requirement to every deck having to run 10 Islands too?
Line breaks! Seriously, what's the deal?
But no, they won't start banning combo. Anyone with half a brain and Modern experience can tell you, if 12post eats a ban, then Control gets better, making Combo worse. Unban JTMS, as it's too slow for the format anyway, ban Glimmerpost/Vesuva, to make 12post more vulnerable, and suddenly the format has less 12post, more control, less combo, and more midrange. Ta-dah!
If they ban 12post, then control is suddenly good. And if they try that, then Control can just run tons of sweeps, as they already do. I've played against RG Urzatron decks, it's not that good.
Except it works. Remember kids, ANY deck can run Thorn of Amethysy. Or Pithing Needle. Or Mindbreak Trap. There's a reason why Dredge decks don't eat bans in Legacy. The deck is incredibly strong and explosive, with good stability, but 4 slots of SB hate (which also happen to be splash hate for much of that format) can put the deck in check.
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"You can just do this" is a weak, hollow argument that doesn't at all address the real issue: this deck can (and will) go off on turns one or two. It may not often, but as many times as it does is that many times too many. You should NEVER lose a game on turn one in this format because of a lucky Storm player. Magic is a game of skill as much as it is chance and Storm takes away any chance you may have at keeping things on an even keel. If they get lucky, chances are you could have all skill in the world and would still have no choice but to scoop 'em up and go home.
Moreover, with the upcoming red Yawgmoth's Will and Thiago Chan's card it will only get even more absurd.
Who runs RG urzatron nowadays?
If you lose to Storm on Turn 1, I'd be amazed. Let's see, Mountain->Rite of Flame->Rite of Flame->Seething Song->rite of flame->rite of flame->Dragonstorm? I mean, there's a maybe another way to do it, but uh...well, that's all 7 cards, and I dunno if it can be done without MASSIVE amounts of luck. Like, less than a couple percentage points of the time.
I've played against it on 'Trice a few times. It's not as fast as 12post when it tries to just be 12post, and loses. The RG Urzatron-Board Control version is pretty good, but I wouldn't even call it tier 1.5 in the future-future league.
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UGH, ZELDEREX. UGH.
For what reason? Cost to aquire the card? I doubt it. Hes not broken and easily dealt with, I dont see why they would ban Goyf.
I am not sure what builds of these decks you are testing. The combo in this format that is not going to get banned (the decks I posted a few pages ago) all have a highly consistent turn 4 win. In fact, many of them capable of turn 3 wins and basically all of them resilient enough to hold out until turn 4. Admittedly, some decks on that list (like Restore Balance and maybe Living End) just aren't that amazing in the current metagame, especially if Affinity can sacrifice all of its creatures in response to a Living End to ensure they are all back. But the majority of those decks are still highly viable, and they will get their time on the tournament scene in the months to come.
You are totally, 100% correct, and I have been stating this for pages and pages now. The problem is that Wizards and R&D are NOT going to see it like this, and they are not going to let combo escape unscathed in this round of bannings. SHOULD they let it go? I think so. I think that the only card that needs a ban in the whole format is Twelvepost, and everything else will sort itself out.
But Mr. Forsythe, head of R&D, has strongly hinted that a lot of cards are going to get banhammered on this coming Tuesday. Given his hatred of storm, his hatred of turn 2 wins, and his hatred of format stagnation, I am guessing that Grapeshot, Blazing Shoal, Splinter Twin, and Cloudpost are all getting axed. Rite of Flame, Empty the Warrens, and Pyromancer's Ascension are also all options, but I think these are less likely.
Overall, the Modern format is going to be just fine after a wave of Tuesday bannings. Some archetypes will fall, but in their place, others are going to rise. The format as a whole is going to continue to grow in popularity, and its decks will continue to develop and mature. There is nothing that Wizards would REASONABLY ban that would destroy the format. The only place to go from here is up.
-ktkenshinx-
The only reason storm is fast is because there isn't a single deck out there to that plays COUNTERSPELLS.
Picture t3 for a storm player. Tap mana > Rite > Desperate > Seething Song...
MANA LEAK? OMG. GG
12post is the real problem here. Storm isn't fast if it has to work around control decks, and control decks just aren't happening.
Please people, stop being idiots just because you have once lost to a storm deck.
Real classy.
At any rate, I eagerly await Tuesday's announcement. I'm certain that something will change, and I'm hoping that is the legality of Emrakul and Blazing Shoal.
Thanks to Heroes of the Plane Studios for the amazing sig!
Grapeshot Warrens involves WAY MORE THAN THAT. It involves 3 or so Rites, 4 Manamorphose, 4 Gitaxian Probes, and a few swathes+grapeshot. I decided it was more logical to assume it was DS, which "only" needs 7 cards for t1 kill.
To be fair, Mana Drain ate a ban in Legacy for just that reason, though it hit something like $300 before that happened.
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I couldn't agree more. I wish they would just try banning cloudpost and see where that puts the meta. I'd assume R&D know that many players feel this way. Doesn't seem like there's anything we can do about it, though. I've played a ton of storm vs control and its really hard. I'd say i win roughly 1/6 games, and post sideboard it gets worse when they bring in targeted discard. At this point i feel like R&D is making things different for differences sake, not because they think it will actually make the format less oppressive. almost like saying "Look, don't worry, we'll shake up the whole format. It'll be better, see? Please don't stop playing... Give it a chance.... please....? ...If you come back, there'll be cake..."
UR Storm WUBRG Sunnyside Up W Death+Taxes BR 7->0:60 Discard
EDH
GU Vig RWU Zedruu BR Olivia
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Rite rite rite swath any spell grapeshot.
Or failing that:
Rite rite rite swath grapeshot grapeshot
Not saying this happens often, but it's far from impossible.
Also, why should fair decks be forced to have blue for counters just so they don't lose to fast combo?
IMO combo is fine as long as they can't win before turn 3. That way a fair deck on the draw can at least drop canonist/thorn and actually play a game. Obviously this only works against storm, but storm is the easiest way to win turn 1 or 2. Before someone mentions Mindbreak trap, I'll point out that it's a terrible way to stop combo, considering most UR combo has Probes.
Like LSV said, banning Blazing Shoal is simply embarassing. I hope we're not so bad at this game we really need that terrible card banned. Shoal Infect is not a very good deck when people are actually prepared for the matchup.
I guess WotC might feel obligated to ban it because of their stupid "no consistent wins before turn 4" policy but I hardly feel like Shoal Infect is that consistent.
if top 8 has over 50% has a blue card, then blue is too strong and need to be banned more cards
So by your justification, force of will needs to be banned in legacy, as it is in well over 50% of top 8 decklists in most to all of the legacy scg opens as 4-ofs.
If a card is 32/32 in many top 8s in a row, i can understand the argument. 50% just means its a strong card. Heck, blue is a strong color. Due to the way countering spells and drawing cards works, that's sort of how it is. Many of the lists have nothing to do with one another, just that they all play FoW.
UR Storm WUBRG Sunnyside Up W Death+Taxes BR 7->0:60 Discard
EDH
GU Vig RWU Zedruu BR Olivia
Play Magic online free with GCCG!
Download it here -- (My Username is ShinkyP)
Trade Thread: Here!
I disagree with this thinking. FOW is not needed to make the format healthy. Some players have been spoiled playing with certain cards in eternal formats for so long. The proper bannings will eventually get us there, but its going to take time. Everyone just needs to relax.
Definitely agree here, FoW isn't really needed that much, most of the combo decks that are running wild are glass cannons and will lose to any sort of disruption. The real problem at the moment is the complete absence of control from the metagame which can be attributed to the presence of 12Post.
if modern is same as legacy, then why we need play a new format. just play back legacy is ok.
blue wil continue has cards be banned to keep modern is different from legacy