From what I take of what Forsythe has said is this.
Cloudpost: will be banned
Something in slpinter-twin will be banned
Storm decks won't leave unscathed
He will be "liberal" in using the ban list for banning and unbanning stuff.
He has no idea what it takes for a control deck to win, and no idea why combo is so prevalent. I would tell him that they go hand it hand.
Meh, if you are referring to the Inside the Deck interview, he said:
- "we want to keep the format fresh, both adding and removing just to shake it up, we don't want the same decks winning tournament after tournament".
About control:
- "some of the pros wish control was a more viable archetype so we'll look at some of the stuff we banned and see if a couple things off might help that out or if it's just a matter of knowing the metagame let you build a control deck."
Soooo... this interview was during the PT, and is not very insightful because it was during the Day 1 or Day 2 and they hadn't analyzed any data.
Edit: having thought a little more about the bans, what I would ban from twin is the kikijiki. That way they only have 4 cards of the red combo, and they are still vulnerable to creature and enchantment hate.
On 12post, if the reason control dies to it is emrakul, I see an emrakul ban making more sense than any of the lands, because this way you get rid of both through the breach and emrakul. The thing about banning the engine instead of the creature is not valid here I think.
I doubt they are going to get too crazy with the unbans. They have to find balance before they can start adding to the format.
Any one asking for Goyf to be banned wants it banned because of cost, not ability, which Wotc has never done.
Ban Vesuva and let 12post live as 8post. It will slow down the deck a bit.
I am on the fence about Emerkul. I believe the format can survive with Emerkul in it if banning Vesuva slows the deck down enough. On the other hand I have a feeling once the format gets healthy thru bannings, Emerkul will have to be banned anyway. If they ban it now I am ok with it, but I feel eventually it will have to be banned.
Twin, something has to go. My nominations are splinter twin, ponder, preordain, probe. I am not asking all of them be banned but one of. With twin killing the deck out right, ponder or preordain would slow it, and probe would make it less consistant. Everyone seems to just want to kill decks instead of slowing them down so I am really not sure what to take out of twin, even though the deck isnt that hard to disrupt.
If Wotc listens to the pros I can see Burning Shoal being banned. Many, many pros are upset over the possiblity of turn 2 wins on a pretty consistant basis. If anyone had listened to the Magic Show on thursady, they have a bunch of different pros talking about Modern and what should be done.
I understand why Vintage is the only format (so far) to have a restricted list. I really think morden could benefit from one too. I doubt they will go that route since once they do, it would be real hard to get away from if it doesnt work. Most times the argument against a restricted list is, its a race to get combo pieces. Really what would be the difference then how the format is now? The restricted list would just slow it down some.
I understand why Vintage is the only format (so far) to have a restricted list. I really think morden could benefit from one too. I doubt they will go that route since once they do, it would be real hard to get away from if it doesnt work. Most times the argument against a restricted list is, its a race to get combo pieces. Really what would be the difference then how the format is now? The restricted list would just slow it down some.
I disagree that Modern could use a restricted list, if a card is good enough to be restricted then its good enough to be banned, simple as that. Having a restricted list makes games to swingy, your opponent could just nut draw into his/her broken cards and just win the game. This is fine for Vintage because no cards are banned for power level reasons but that's not the case in any other format.
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I disagree that Modern could use a restricted list, if a card is good enough to be restricted then its good enough to be banned, simple as that. Having a restricted list makes games to swingy, your opponent could just nut draw into his/her broken cards and just win the game. This is fine for Vintage because no cards are banned for power level reasons but that's not the case in any other format.
If you read, I did mention that is one of the draw backs to a restricted list. The cards I was thinking to go on the restriced list would be more staples that enable degenerate play. Ponder, Chrome mox, Blazing Shoal, and cards such as that.
But I totally understand the drawbacks and the problems with going that route too.
Guys u realise these bannings you suggest will not slow but kill all combo decks ?
then we will have a legacy-state with control and aggro?
I hope wizards will want to keep the archetype trinity and slow down combo and unban some controls so all 3 archetypes can exist
Lots of combo would exist even after bannings. These combo decks are probably worse than the ones that currently rule the format, but then again, the combo decks in the format are definitely too fast for comfort. I personally do not think Wizards should ban anything except for a Twelvepost component, but I can understand why they are almost assuredly going to ban Blazing Shoal, Splinter Twin, and Grapeshot. Empty the Warrens, Rite of Flame, and Pyromancer's Ascension might also be heading for the chopping block.
So what combo does that leave? Thankfully, quite a few. The following decks would all still be viable in Modern.
-Hive Mind
-Ad Nauseam/Angel's Grace
-Dragonstorm
-Pump Infect
-Sunny Side Up (Second Sunrise combo)
-Combo Elves
-Living End
-Melira Combo
-Breach Hulk
-Restore Balance
And those are just the ones I can think of off the top of my head. In a 5000 card format, there is always going to be combo. Many of the above decks are perfectly capable of staying competitive in the format, as they pack in both resiliency to hate, redundant combo pieces, and lots of old fashioned combo speed. I am a combo player, and I am really not too worried about the impending banhammer coming down on some of these current strategies.
I would personally like to see Blazing Shoal go also Through the Breach, Emrakul and Eye of Ugin go from 12 post. Splinter Twin from Twin combo. Rite of Flame and a storm card go from Storm and Ravager or Atog from affinity. GSZ is also a possible candidate because it’s pretty broken once the format slows its pace – as it repeatedly tutors creatures and makes removal pretty much null and void, it's debateable.
If you ban emrakul, through the breach is not good enough in 12post (maybe it needs bans because of other decks, I don't know if they would become a problem). With emrakul banned, eye and 12post would be fine along JTMS and vision unbanned.
Banning the splinter is probably too harsh and banning kikijiki would probably suffice.
all these combos u mention are very poor in quality compared to the aggro decks .i mean affinity and zoo can win turn 4 easily while they can play normal and disrupt.they are much more flexible and their card quaility.
No1 will play a combo that is slower than the super fast aggro dekcs like zoo and affinity
As combo players, we should definitely be looking at the Zoo and Affinity matchups to see if they are winnable. If not, then we have a problem. Thankfully, both of these matchups are not that difficult. Affinity has laughable amounts of disruption. The only cards that you have to worry about are Dispatch, if you are running a creature-based combo, and Ethersworn Canonist, if your combo involves lots of spells. Zoo runs plenty of anti-creature cards, as well as Teeg, Pridemage, and maybe Canonist. Some builds also run Mindcensor in the board, ala Charming Zoo.
But here is the thing that a lot of players seem to ignore. Combo decks don't have to enter into the matchup without any protection of their own. Removal such as Magma Jet deals with the omnipresent hate bears and digs to find your combo pieces. Something as simple as Gigadrowse can buy a UR combo player a whole turn on the critical turn 3 before they win. Breach Hulk is capable of winning anywhere between turn 1 and 3 depending on the hand, and Zoo's only answer to that is Path to Exiling the Hulk before he dies. Second Sunrise is capable of a turn 3 win, turn 4 with bad luck, in a completely, dredge-style, noninteractive, graveyard-based fashion. And Hive Mind? With such a compact 2 card combo as the win condition, that deck can really pack in removal and countermagic to protect its core pieces.
I tested most of these decks before PT Philly, alongside the PT Philly fast ones. I maintain that Hive Mind is probably still the "best" combo in the format, because it is ultra resilient and has so many slots free for protection, disruption, recursion, etc. The other decks are not far behind in power. With a little innovation and testing, many of them will be able to reach competitive levels. Living End? Restore Balance? Well, maybe not all. But Hive Mind, Second Sunrise, Combo Elves, Ad Nauseam, etc. are all powerful decks that can fit right into a post-banning metagame.
all these combos u mention are very poor in quality compared to the aggro decks .i mean affinity and zoo can win turn 4 easily while they can play normal and disrupt.they are much more flexible and their card quaility is huge
No1 will play a combo that is slower than the super fast aggro dekcs like zoo and affinity
I doubt they are going to get too crazy with the unbans. They have to find balance before they can start adding to the format.
Any one asking for Goyf to be banned wants it banned because of cost, not ability, which Wotc has never done.
The moxen are banned in legacy because of their casting cost of 0. Birds of paradise and other 1 cost mana dorks are perfectly fair and no one would ever call for them to get the ban hammer. With that said, the fact that WOTC has never done something in the past does not imply they should not do it.
Lots of combo would exist even after bannings. These combo decks are probably worse than the ones that currently rule the format, but then again, the combo decks in the format are definitely too fast for comfort. I personally do not think Wizards should ban anything except for a Twelvepost component, but I can understand why they are almost assuredly going to ban Blazing Shoal, Splinter Twin, and Grapeshot. Empty the Warrens, Rite of Flame, and Pyromancer's Ascension might also be heading for the chopping block.
So what combo does that leave? Thankfully, quite a few. The following decks would all still be viable in Modern.
-Hive Mind
-Ad Nauseam/Angel's Grace
-Dragonstorm
-Pump Infect
-Sunny Side Up (Second Sunrise combo)
-Combo Elves
-Living End
-Melira Combo
-Breach Hulk
-Restore Balance
And those are just the ones I can think of off the top of my head. In a 5000 card format, there is always going to be combo. Many of the above decks are perfectly capable of staying competitive in the format, as they pack in both resiliency to hate, redundant combo pieces, and lots of old fashioned combo speed. I am a combo player, and I am really not too worried about the impending banhammer coming down on some of these current strategies.
-ktkenshinx-
None of those are real combos except dragonstorm. They are all Janky as **** and not interesting to play.
What good is a combo deck if at some point around turn 6 they almost go off? Turn 6 is dead in this format with "fair" decks like Zoo running around. At some point (about 30 pages ago) people started complaining about combo for no real reason. Sure it did well at Philly, but nothing was there to put in check.
Perhaps if 12post wasnt stomping around all the control decks, then Grapeshot could have to fight to win on turn 3/4.
Think about what the real problem is here. Combo is only doing so well because there isn't any real opposition to it.
THIS 100X!!! If you don't agree with this then there is no amount of logic that will ever convince you that good, non-oppressive, combos should be allowed. If you don't agree with it then just don't play this game, and you certainly shouldn't feel entitled to make any comment on ban lists ever.
all that ban madness is ridiculous!
its only 1 frigging tournament and everyone is crying for bans.
Prepare and the format is pretty much fine(except the lack of good control
cards -which is an unbann issue and not a ban one...)
LSV and the rest of the pros studyied the format and playtested a lot
and decided to play an aggro deck and they were top.
LSV was 1st in constructed with counter -cat(a fish style agggro-control deck)
and afterwards said that belcher combo is just fine and can be answered easily.
But we have a lot of crybabies that are clueless who cry for bannings.
these kind of combo decks(belcher) were never tournament winning and never will be because they are easily disrupted-the pros know that and know how to
disrupt them.
Heck wizards the game needs to be balanced around good players not around
casuals.But you dont have to be particularly smart to realise that they will listen to the crybabies.its all about the money afterall...
well Forsythe said that he was going to do some banning anyways. Stop calling everything aggro control because charming zoo is not aggro control. It isn't even the combo decks that are the problem its 12post which is keeping control out of the format, which is making combo decks better than they should be.
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counter-cat IS aggro-control.but thats not the point afterall!
The point is that we dont need a huge bannhammer to every viable combo!
we need unbanning of good control cards and patience so the format can evolve...
Its not, its a Zoo deck that can sideboard into an Aggro-control deck but mainboard the deck is just an aggro deck. I don't really think we need to unban that much, maybe Visions or Jace but I really think we do need to do something to Cloudpost because its warping the meta into being just Aggro decks and Combo decks.
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But whomever your commander is, Cabal Coffers is really in charge.
correction: mind's desire is broken, grapeshot is not. storm combo is fragile and easily hated out. if your playing white, play ethersworn canonist, rule of law, the white leyline from m11, or any other similar effect. if your playing blue, play counterspells, trickbind, or faeries like sprite and vendilion. if your playing black, have some discard effects. if your playing red, you can race them anyway, and if your playing green play krosan grip or some form of enchantment hate. there is a reason you are allowed a sideboard, use it.
as for storm being unfun, so what? everyone has a certain type of deck they never want to play against because they think its not fun. i hate playing against any deck playing creatures, but love playing against combos.
This man is correct. So what you dont like playing against Storm decks. Grapeshot is not broken. Neither is Rite of Flame. The problem is that the decks that prey on combo are non existent. Fix that and the fact that combo is rampant will fix itself.
If wizards seriously axes combo out of this format, (More than they already have, I should add) I'm just done buying their products. If you want to sit there and attack each other with creatures play Pokemon ffs.
Magic exists in a happy little triangle that is Control > Combo > Aggro > Control.
The current state of modern is Combo > 12post > Aggro < Combo.
Until they fix the fact that nothing is stopping combo, they can't ban combo. Otherwise the metagame becomes. 12post > Aggro.
THIS 100X!!! If you don't agree with this then there is no amount of logic that will ever convince you that good, non-oppressive, combos should be allowed. If you don't agree with it then just don't play this game, and you certainly shouldn't feel entitled to make any comment on ban lists ever.
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I feel that Dragonstorm is fine, and Ignite Memories is probably too inconsistent.
Emrakul
Empty the Warrens
Grapeshot
Meh, if you are referring to the Inside the Deck interview, he said:
- "we want to keep the format fresh, both adding and removing just to shake it up, we don't want the same decks winning tournament after tournament".
About control:
- "some of the pros wish control was a more viable archetype so we'll look at some of the stuff we banned and see if a couple things off might help that out or if it's just a matter of knowing the metagame let you build a control deck."
Soooo... this interview was during the PT, and is not very insightful because it was during the Day 1 or Day 2 and they hadn't analyzed any data.
Edit: having thought a little more about the bans, what I would ban from twin is the kikijiki. That way they only have 4 cards of the red combo, and they are still vulnerable to creature and enchantment hate.
On 12post, if the reason control dies to it is emrakul, I see an emrakul ban making more sense than any of the lands, because this way you get rid of both through the breach and emrakul. The thing about banning the engine instead of the creature is not valid here I think.
Ban: Emrakul, The Aeons Torn, Tarmogoyf, Cloudpost, all cards with storm, Splinter Twin, Deceiver Exarch
Unban: Jace TMS, Bitterblossom, Ancestral Visions, Mental Misstep
i think the sets of modern is not enough.
starting from 5 th edition to now is more fun.
unban Dread Return,Golgari Grave-Troll,Stoneforge Mystic,Umezawa's Jitte,Skullclamp,Sword of the Meek,Dark Depths,Sensei's Divining Top
ban infect land,GSZ, Splinter Twin, cloudpost, plating
then top 8 are all have blue color and no one play aggro but if unban skullscamp, aggro can kill control
i dont mind unban Bitterblossom and jace but let's unban some nice card for aggro
In other words, "Unban the cards I want to play with, but ban the stuff I don't want to face."
Any one asking for Goyf to be banned wants it banned because of cost, not ability, which Wotc has never done.
Ban Vesuva and let 12post live as 8post. It will slow down the deck a bit.
I am on the fence about Emerkul. I believe the format can survive with Emerkul in it if banning Vesuva slows the deck down enough. On the other hand I have a feeling once the format gets healthy thru bannings, Emerkul will have to be banned anyway. If they ban it now I am ok with it, but I feel eventually it will have to be banned.
Twin, something has to go. My nominations are splinter twin, ponder, preordain, probe. I am not asking all of them be banned but one of. With twin killing the deck out right, ponder or preordain would slow it, and probe would make it less consistant. Everyone seems to just want to kill decks instead of slowing them down so I am really not sure what to take out of twin, even though the deck isnt that hard to disrupt.
If Wotc listens to the pros I can see Burning Shoal being banned. Many, many pros are upset over the possiblity of turn 2 wins on a pretty consistant basis. If anyone had listened to the Magic Show on thursady, they have a bunch of different pros talking about Modern and what should be done.
I understand why Vintage is the only format (so far) to have a restricted list. I really think morden could benefit from one too. I doubt they will go that route since once they do, it would be real hard to get away from if it doesnt work. Most times the argument against a restricted list is, its a race to get combo pieces. Really what would be the difference then how the format is now? The restricted list would just slow it down some.
Illusionary Mask was only recently unbanned in legacy.
I disagree that Modern could use a restricted list, if a card is good enough to be restricted then its good enough to be banned, simple as that. Having a restricted list makes games to swingy, your opponent could just nut draw into his/her broken cards and just win the game. This is fine for Vintage because no cards are banned for power level reasons but that's not the case in any other format.
Even dragonstorm (which is the least obnoxious) can take a hike
Insert witty phrase here
If you read, I did mention that is one of the draw backs to a restricted list. The cards I was thinking to go on the restriced list would be more staples that enable degenerate play. Ponder, Chrome mox, Blazing Shoal, and cards such as that.
But I totally understand the drawbacks and the problems with going that route too.
Only Grapeshot and Empty the Warrens would warrant taking a hit if anything does.
Lots of combo would exist even after bannings. These combo decks are probably worse than the ones that currently rule the format, but then again, the combo decks in the format are definitely too fast for comfort. I personally do not think Wizards should ban anything except for a Twelvepost component, but I can understand why they are almost assuredly going to ban Blazing Shoal, Splinter Twin, and Grapeshot. Empty the Warrens, Rite of Flame, and Pyromancer's Ascension might also be heading for the chopping block.
So what combo does that leave? Thankfully, quite a few. The following decks would all still be viable in Modern.
-Hive Mind
-Ad Nauseam/Angel's Grace
-Dragonstorm
-Pump Infect
-Sunny Side Up (Second Sunrise combo)
-Combo Elves
-Living End
-Melira Combo
-Breach Hulk
-Restore Balance
And those are just the ones I can think of off the top of my head. In a 5000 card format, there is always going to be combo. Many of the above decks are perfectly capable of staying competitive in the format, as they pack in both resiliency to hate, redundant combo pieces, and lots of old fashioned combo speed. I am a combo player, and I am really not too worried about the impending banhammer coming down on some of these current strategies.
-ktkenshinx-
If you ban emrakul, through the breach is not good enough in 12post (maybe it needs bans because of other decks, I don't know if they would become a problem). With emrakul banned, eye and 12post would be fine along JTMS and vision unbanned.
Banning the splinter is probably too harsh and banning kikijiki would probably suffice.
As combo players, we should definitely be looking at the Zoo and Affinity matchups to see if they are winnable. If not, then we have a problem. Thankfully, both of these matchups are not that difficult. Affinity has laughable amounts of disruption. The only cards that you have to worry about are Dispatch, if you are running a creature-based combo, and Ethersworn Canonist, if your combo involves lots of spells. Zoo runs plenty of anti-creature cards, as well as Teeg, Pridemage, and maybe Canonist. Some builds also run Mindcensor in the board, ala Charming Zoo.
But here is the thing that a lot of players seem to ignore. Combo decks don't have to enter into the matchup without any protection of their own. Removal such as Magma Jet deals with the omnipresent hate bears and digs to find your combo pieces. Something as simple as Gigadrowse can buy a UR combo player a whole turn on the critical turn 3 before they win. Breach Hulk is capable of winning anywhere between turn 1 and 3 depending on the hand, and Zoo's only answer to that is Path to Exiling the Hulk before he dies. Second Sunrise is capable of a turn 3 win, turn 4 with bad luck, in a completely, dredge-style, noninteractive, graveyard-based fashion. And Hive Mind? With such a compact 2 card combo as the win condition, that deck can really pack in removal and countermagic to protect its core pieces.
I tested most of these decks before PT Philly, alongside the PT Philly fast ones. I maintain that Hive Mind is probably still the "best" combo in the format, because it is ultra resilient and has so many slots free for protection, disruption, recursion, etc. The other decks are not far behind in power. With a little innovation and testing, many of them will be able to reach competitive levels. Living End? Restore Balance? Well, maybe not all. But Hive Mind, Second Sunrise, Combo Elves, Ad Nauseam, etc. are all powerful decks that can fit right into a post-banning metagame.
-ktkenshinx-
ban both zoo and all the combo together
also , clouldpost
unban all control cards and try for 1or 2 months
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None of those are real combos except dragonstorm. They are all Janky as **** and not interesting to play.
What good is a combo deck if at some point around turn 6 they almost go off? Turn 6 is dead in this format with "fair" decks like Zoo running around. At some point (about 30 pages ago) people started complaining about combo for no real reason. Sure it did well at Philly, but nothing was there to put in check.
Perhaps if 12post wasnt stomping around all the control decks, then Grapeshot could have to fight to win on turn 3/4.
Think about what the real problem is here. Combo is only doing so well because there isn't any real opposition to it.
well Forsythe said that he was going to do some banning anyways. Stop calling everything aggro control because charming zoo is not aggro control. It isn't even the combo decks that are the problem its 12post which is keeping control out of the format, which is making combo decks better than they should be.
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Its not, its a Zoo deck that can sideboard into an Aggro-control deck but mainboard the deck is just an aggro deck. I don't really think we need to unban that much, maybe Visions or Jace but I really think we do need to do something to Cloudpost because its warping the meta into being just Aggro decks and Combo decks.
Stop with the random linebreaks, and improve capitalization. It's in forum rules that you should at least TRY to make your posts legible.
Counter-Cat is Charming Zoo. Charming Zoo is Counter-Cat. Charming Zoo is a Zoo-Style aggro deck that can sideboard into an Aggro-Control deck.
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This man is correct. So what you dont like playing against Storm decks. Grapeshot is not broken. Neither is Rite of Flame. The problem is that the decks that prey on combo are non existent. Fix that and the fact that combo is rampant will fix itself.
If wizards seriously axes combo out of this format, (More than they already have, I should add) I'm just done buying their products. If you want to sit there and attack each other with creatures play Pokemon ffs.
Magic exists in a happy little triangle that is Control > Combo > Aggro > Control.
The current state of modern is Combo > 12post > Aggro < Combo.
Until they fix the fact that nothing is stopping combo, they can't ban combo. Otherwise the metagame becomes. 12post > Aggro.
And the format worsens.