I like spell burst. Also I think that a good permission deck with a lot of counterspells played correctly will lock your opponent out more consistently than a lock combo
the best deck to counter zoo is probably storm if it is fast enough to do that anymore.
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I don't think Mindslaver can be called a "full" lockdown deck. I take it that OP is looking for a hard lock as opposed to a soft lock which you can break out of.
Ex:
Isochron Scepter + Silence = Soft lock. Vulenerable to instant speed permanent destruction / counterspells / bounce / etc.
Mindslaver + Academy Ruins = Soft lock. Vulnerable to grave hate, land destruction.
I think Maralen of the Mornsong + Leonin Arbiter is the fastest lock available... if played correctly this "combo" can lock the game down as early as T3 (on the play)
What? Since when is it considered a "lock" to let your opponent search his library every turn? Lol. If you play Maralen on turn 3, your opponent will always have mana to pay for searching his library.
not necessarily, if you have arbiter out (casting him t2), your opponent will have to pay 2 to search his or her library, if he/she has a tapland as his 3th manasource and/or has no 1CMC removal spells in his deck, things could really get quite ugly... besides, even if he manages to kill your T3 malaren, he'll still have suffered 3 damage and wasted a removal spell - which in some situations is the same as a time-walk...
I disagree with you. I don't think this combo is a good idea. I think it may have been slightly better if you had suggested Aven Mindcensor instead of Leonin Arbiter. Even then, I would still disagree. I don't think Maralen can create a lock; he's usually just a sitting duck.
In any case, we're obviously entitled to differing opinions on the usefulness of Maralen, but the question here is whether or not he is capable of creating a "full lockdown" and the answer to that question is no.
not necessarily, if you have arbiter out (casting him t2), your opponent will have to pay 2 to search his or her library, if he/she has a tapland as his 3th manasource and/or has no 1CMC removal spells in his deck, things could really get quite ugly... besides, even if he manages to kill your T3 malaren, he'll still have suffered 3 damage and wasted a removal spell - which in some situations is the same as a time-walk...
There are so many decks without 1 cmc removal, right? Also taking 3 damage and answering your threat isn't the definition of a time walk.
I understand there are perfect scenarios where this can be a real lock, but most of the time it isn't and both cards are bad on their own.
How does an opponent break out of this lock once it's established? They can't interact on your turn because you can tap all of their lands at the end of theirs. You always get first look at the card they draw, so if it's a free effect that would allow them to break the lock such as Faerie Macabre or Surgical Extraction you can force them to waste it on something irrelevant.
As I have found out the hard way, if they target your mindslaver with extirpate after you crack it, the lock is gone.
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When does lightning bolt kill Emrakul? When your opponent's at three.
As I have found out the hard way, if they target your mindslaver with extirpate after you crack it, the lock is gone.
Yes. Which means that the lock is only vulnerable BEFORE it's established. Once you've done the first Mindslaver, the only thing they can do is, like, Street Wraith into Surgical Extraction or Faerie Macabre if they have it, and that's ridiculously narrow. Saying Mindslaver loses to Extirpate if they have it is like saying Erayo lock loses to a counterspell if they counter Erayo. These things exist, but they don't stop the lock from winning the game once it's all set up.
Yes. Which means that the lock is only vulnerable BEFORE it's established. Once you've done the first Mindslaver, the only thing they can do is, like, Street Wraith into Surgical Extraction or Faerie Macabre if they have it, and that's ridiculously narrow. Saying Mindslaver loses to Extirpate if they have it is like saying Erayo lock loses to a counterspell if they counter Erayo. These things exist, but they don't stop the lock from winning the game once it's all set up.
You're right. I stand corrected. There is no way to break out of the Mindslaver lock once it's been established.
That's probably why its the best lock you can achieve in this format. But it's quite slow.
Can somebody tell me how to set up the lock Mindslaver + Academy Ruins
I'm guessing you fetch it with gifts ungiven. But what exactly is the package that you're supposed to fetch?
The Mindslaver lock is "established" as soon as you put it on top of your library with Academy Ruins, you ruin their next turn with the Slaver, and Ruins is still alive at the end of it all. They can respond to the first Slaver crack with Trickbind and the Ruins ability with Extirpate/Surgical Extraction, though, and they can also smack Ruins with Tectonic Edge/Ghost Quarter to prevent you from getting a second crack at it.
I am not as familiar with some of the Vintage and Legacy vileness, but Mindslaver is EASILY the most unfun card in all of magic (that I know of). I am staggered that it was reprinted, as it seems like a card that MaRo and AaFo would not like, but I suppose it would be in Modern either way. It is a vile and hateful way to win, and I am sure that there is an especially terrifying place place in hell for people that play the card.
...sorry, it just bubbled out. I am not really worried about not being able do deal with it, but it does totally mind-frack me when I know it is in my opponent's deck. I does throw me off, not too much but it does happen.
The fastest 'lockdown' in the format is to kill your opponent with Grapeshot to the face, using the Past In Flames engine. Nothing locks your opponent down better than taking him right out of the game.
Seriously, the difference between a 'lockdown' and a 'combo' is that your opponent can pretend he's not actually dead when he's locked out of the game.
____
The best counter to the Zoo deck is to play a consistent deck with stable mana and efficient spells. I don't care what kind of deck you play; if you're losing to Zoo, it's because your deck has gaping flaws in its structure. Aggro is designed to win because its opponents buckle to the pressure while trying to establish themselves. This doesn't mean that Aggro is a bad strategy; it's simply a metagame decision that you think you can punish people based upon their shotty deck design/card choice.
____
I would argue that Mindslaver is very fun, and for both players. There is the first hurdle of finding a way to spend 10 mana and stick it, then activate it. Then there is the entertainment of someone playing both sides of the table and making creative decisions to maximize value on a number of dimensions. And it's one of the few cards that creates situations where someone is trying to checkmate himself. I have loads of fun when I get Slavered, and I understand that I have lost the game when I am Slaver locked (and therefore I concede, unless I am burning time off the clock intentionally).
People like to make judgments about what's 'fun' or 'unfun' based upon whether they're winning or losing games. They should be considering 'fun' and 'unfun' by thinking about how much influence each player had on the game, as a deck pilot and as a deck builder/chooser. The games I consider 'unfun' are the ones where my opponent and/or I are simply going through the motions, and the game is actually playing itself.
The fastest 'lockdown' in the format is to kill your opponent with Grapeshot to the face, using the Past In Flames engine. Nothing locks your opponent down better than taking him right out of the game.
This. smart alec answer(but I love it), but yeah... fun or unfun.. which is more fun? losing quickly and moving to the next game or be locked out of the game when a late game combo is assembled ? Different answers i suppose. To some its winning quickly, to others it's enraging the opponent, then winning (with style). lol
someone can call a mana intensive, late game Mindslaver lock unfun or an epically stormed grapeshot on T3 unfun... in the end, losing is unfun lol
i believe there are still quite a bit of synergies to be exploited into more game winning combos or game winning "locks." Just gotta keep brewing.
Seriously, the difference between a 'lockdown' and a 'combo' is that your opponent can pretend he's not actually dead when he's locked out of the game.
____
Then there is the entertainment of someone playing both sides of the table and making creative decisions to maximize value on a number of dimensions. And it's one of the few cards that creates situations where someone is trying to checkmate himself.
This. smart alec answer, but yeah... fun or unfun.. which is more fun? losing quickly and moving to the next game or be locked out of the game? Different answers i suppose. To some its winning quickly, to others it's enraging the opponent, then winning. lol
I don't think anyone actually continues to play the game once they've been "locked-out" with mindslaver. So, I don't understand how it offers entertainment or creative decision making because that part of the game is never actually played out. A player will just concede if you can establish the mindslaver lock. So, it's actually just like combo.
I would argue that Mindslaver is very fun, and for both players. There is the first hurdle of finding a way to spend 10 mana and stick it, then activate it. Then there is the entertainment of someone playing both sides of the table and making creative decisions to maximize value on a number of dimensions. And it's one of the few cards that creates situations where someone is trying to checkmate himself. I have loads of fun when I get Slavered, and I understand that I have lost the game when I am Slaver locked (and therefore I concede, unless I am burning time off the clock intentionally).
My guess is you are in the minority when you say you think it is fun to be the target of Mindslaver. That is just a guess, so I could be wrong, but I fail to see how that level of elimination of power could be fun once the lock is on. I love playing control mirrors, and when I face a deck that is owning me my first instinct is not to want to play another deck- I want to play again until I am able to find a way to beat it. Mindsalver, in my opinion, is on another level of control.
People like to make judgments about what's 'fun' or 'unfun' based upon whether they're winning or losing games.
If I gauged fun on whether I was winning or not I would not play this game. Because I tend to like to try rogue decks or rogue builds of established decks, and I feel that you never get better unless you are playing someone better than you, I loose more often than I win.
I was not clear enough in my exaggerated rant, but when I said "that I know of" I was trying to communicate that I was talking about for me personally. I then mentioned MaRo and AaFo because comments that they have made with regards to what research has shown what players find "fun" and "unfun". That is about as far as I am comfortable as I am extrapolating my opinion on other players. When I say "Mindslaver is the most unfun card in magic" I am talking about my opinion, since it would be pure arrogance to think that everyone thought like I did in this regard.
Also I was not truly making an assertion as to the actual existance of an afterlife, of a state of punnishment after death, or of what the requirements were for that punishment. Additionally I did not mean to advocate for the existance of the Judeo-Christian idea of "hell".
I think Maralen of the Mornsong + Leonin Arbiter is the fastest lock available... if played correctly this "combo" can lock the game down as early as T3 (on the play) - I however haven't seen a competitive list, presumably because the deck is really hard to play (a single mistake will most likely result in suicide)
I am brewing with Maralen of the Mornsong hoping to establish a lock with Isochron Scepter imprinted with Shadow of Doubt. The scepter is not bad without the other two cards and the shadow of doubt can Sinkhole a fetch land and can functionally cycle if it's really otherwise useless.
I think this would be really awesome when it works but it will be frustratingly hard to make it consistent and fast. It's a combo so compare it to storm while brewing
I am brewing with Maralen of the Mornsong hoping to establish a lock with Isochron Scepter imprinted with Shadow of Doubt. The scepter is not bad without the other two cards and the shadow of doubt can Sinkhole a fetch land and can functionally cycle if it's really otherwise useless.
I had a casual deck that did that, and it was fun. It was not, however, very fast or consistent so I am doubtful it will do well competitively. It was fun though.
I can frequently get an infinite turn lock with Heartbeat by turn 4-5. Although I wouldn't really call it a lockdown, because generally If I get the infinite turn lock, I can just deck the opponent the same turn off infinite mana.
So I guess by full lockdown, you would generally imply "i win" combo, that doesn't actually kill the turn it resolves.
I don't think anyone actually continues to play the game once they've been "locked-out" with mindslaver. So, I don't understand how it offers entertainment or creative decision making because that part of the game is never actually played out. A player will just concede if you can establish the mindslaver lock. So, it's actually just like combo.
I was talking about what happens when someone is taking a Mindslaver turn, not when the Mindslaver lock is already in place. There is a distinct difference between one Mindslavered turn and someone never having another turn in the game. I know this because I have been Slavered and gone on to win games, and I have Slavered people and gone on to lose games. That's what's fun about it: thinking about ways to win through your opponent using all of your available resources against you. Or just enjoying watching someone completely work a board position over.
My guess is you are in the minority when you say you think it is fun to be the target of Mindslaver. That is just a guess, so I could be wrong, but I fail to see how that level of elimination of power could be fun once the lock is on. I love playing control mirrors, and when I face a deck that is owning me my first instinct is not to want to play another deck- I want to play again until I am able to find a way to beat it. Mindsalver, in my opinion, is on another level of control.
I probably am in the minority. Then again, I respect a good beating when I see one--even if I'm the guy on the receiving end.
If I gauged fun on whether I was winning or not I would not play this game. Because I tend to like to try rogue decks or rogue builds of established decks, and I feel that you never get better unless you are playing someone better than you, I loose more often than I win.
Of course. I was talking more about players in general, including myself. It's very difficult to strive to win a game, then take the loss in stride and immediately respect the opponent for winning the game. Naturally, if you're trying your hardest to win, it's a challenge to handle that distaste from losing. That feeling from Mindslaver that says "there's nothing I can do" is only going to make that harder after a loss, no matter how mature the player is.
I was not clear enough in my exaggerated rant, but when I said "that I know of" I was trying to communicate that I was talking about for me personally. I then mentioned MaRo and AaFo because comments that they have made with regards to what research has shown what players find "fun" and "unfun". That is about as far as I am comfortable as I am extrapolating my opinion on other players. When I say "Mindslaver is the most unfun card in magic" I am talking about my opinion, since it would be pure arrogance to think that everyone thought like I did in this regard.
Well, of course it's your opinion! I decided that it was worth sharing my opinion, as well, to have a counter-point in the discussion. I know you don't project your opinion on other people like that; sometimes when I share my opinion I can come on a bit strong because of my lust for debate.
Also I was not truly making an assertion as to the actual existance of an afterlife, of a state of punnishment after death, or of what the requirements were for that punishment. Additionally I did not mean to advocate for the existance of the Judeo-Christian idea of "hell".
Don't worry, there's a special place in Hell for the people who take everything literally.
Well, of course it's your opinion! I decided that it was worth sharing my opinion, as well, to have a counter-point in the discussion. I know you don't project your opinion on other people like that; sometimes when I share my opinion I can come on a bit strong because of my lust for debate.
Thank you for making that distinction, I should not have taken it personally. I apologize, sometime I get a little sensitive about being lumped in with the arrogant population of the interwebs- especially I sense I have the tendency to be a bit of a know-it-all (though surprisingly enough I don't) in real life.
Perhaps I misunderstood because you never smile. Have you ever noticed that?
the best deck to counter zoo is probably storm if it is fast enough to do that anymore.
Albert Einstein
Thomas Jefferson
It is with little or no disruption.
Full lockdown... quickest is Erayo, albiet less reliable and Mindslaver lock the most consistent
or LOL spell burst with Urza mana and Rule of Law
:symwr:BorosBGR Living End(Primer) W Soul Sisters Tokens
UGrand Architect+Pili-Pala Infinite combo:symq::chaos:
Ex:
Isochron Scepter + Silence = Soft lock. Vulenerable to instant speed permanent destruction / counterspells / bounce / etc.
Mindslaver + Academy Ruins = Soft lock. Vulnerable to grave hate, land destruction.
Erayo + Rule of Law = Hard Lock
BRG Loam Control (Assault - Loam) BRG
W Mono White Control (Martyr - Proc) W
What? Since when is it considered a "lock" to let your opponent search his library every turn? Lol. If you play Maralen on turn 3, your opponent will always have mana to pay for searching his library.
BRG Loam Control (Assault - Loam) BRG
W Mono White Control (Martyr - Proc) W
I disagree with you. I don't think this combo is a good idea. I think it may have been slightly better if you had suggested Aven Mindcensor instead of Leonin Arbiter. Even then, I would still disagree. I don't think Maralen can create a lock; he's usually just a sitting duck.
In any case, we're obviously entitled to differing opinions on the usefulness of Maralen, but the question here is whether or not he is capable of creating a "full lockdown" and the answer to that question is no.
BRG Loam Control (Assault - Loam) BRG
W Mono White Control (Martyr - Proc) W
There are so many decks without 1 cmc removal, right? Also taking 3 damage and answering your threat isn't the definition of a time walk.
I understand there are perfect scenarios where this can be a real lock, but most of the time it isn't and both cards are bad on their own.
As I have found out the hard way, if they target your mindslaver with extirpate after you crack it, the lock is gone.
Yes. Which means that the lock is only vulnerable BEFORE it's established. Once you've done the first Mindslaver, the only thing they can do is, like, Street Wraith into Surgical Extraction or Faerie Macabre if they have it, and that's ridiculously narrow. Saying Mindslaver loses to Extirpate if they have it is like saying Erayo lock loses to a counterspell if they counter Erayo. These things exist, but they don't stop the lock from winning the game once it's all set up.
Lands WUBG
EDH:
Doran WBG
You're right. I stand corrected. There is no way to break out of the Mindslaver lock once it's been established.
That's probably why its the best lock you can achieve in this format. But it's quite slow.
Can somebody tell me how to set up the lock Mindslaver + Academy Ruins
I'm guessing you fetch it with gifts ungiven. But what exactly is the package that you're supposed to fetch?
BRG Loam Control (Assault - Loam) BRG
W Mono White Control (Martyr - Proc) W
The Slaver lock pile is probably Mindslaver-Academy Ruins-Crucible of Worlds/Life from the Loam (if you run green)-Buried Ruin/Noxious Revival/Tolaria West (if you run more than 1 Ruins)/Expedition Map (see Tolaria West)/Fourth Card (if you run LftL).
...sorry, it just bubbled out. I am not really worried about not being able do deal with it, but it does totally mind-frack me when I know it is in my opponent's deck. I does throw me off, not too much but it does happen.
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Seriously, the difference between a 'lockdown' and a 'combo' is that your opponent can pretend he's not actually dead when he's locked out of the game.
____
The best counter to the Zoo deck is to play a consistent deck with stable mana and efficient spells. I don't care what kind of deck you play; if you're losing to Zoo, it's because your deck has gaping flaws in its structure. Aggro is designed to win because its opponents buckle to the pressure while trying to establish themselves. This doesn't mean that Aggro is a bad strategy; it's simply a metagame decision that you think you can punish people based upon their shotty deck design/card choice.
____
I would argue that Mindslaver is very fun, and for both players. There is the first hurdle of finding a way to spend 10 mana and stick it, then activate it. Then there is the entertainment of someone playing both sides of the table and making creative decisions to maximize value on a number of dimensions. And it's one of the few cards that creates situations where someone is trying to checkmate himself. I have loads of fun when I get Slavered, and I understand that I have lost the game when I am Slaver locked (and therefore I concede, unless I am burning time off the clock intentionally).
People like to make judgments about what's 'fun' or 'unfun' based upon whether they're winning or losing games. They should be considering 'fun' and 'unfun' by thinking about how much influence each player had on the game, as a deck pilot and as a deck builder/chooser. The games I consider 'unfun' are the ones where my opponent and/or I are simply going through the motions, and the game is actually playing itself.
This. smart alec answer(but I love it), but yeah... fun or unfun.. which is more fun? losing quickly and moving to the next game or be locked out of the game when a late game combo is assembled ? Different answers i suppose. To some its winning quickly, to others it's enraging the opponent, then winning (with style). lol
someone can call a mana intensive, late game Mindslaver lock unfun or an epically stormed grapeshot on T3 unfun... in the end, losing is unfun lol
i believe there are still quite a bit of synergies to be exploited into more game winning combos or game winning "locks." Just gotta keep brewing.
:symwr:BorosBGR Living End(Primer) W Soul Sisters Tokens
UGrand Architect+Pili-Pala Infinite combo:symq::chaos:
I don't think anyone actually continues to play the game once they've been "locked-out" with mindslaver. So, I don't understand how it offers entertainment or creative decision making because that part of the game is never actually played out. A player will just concede if you can establish the mindslaver lock. So, it's actually just like combo.
BRG Loam Control (Assault - Loam) BRG
W Mono White Control (Martyr - Proc) W
If I gauged fun on whether I was winning or not I would not play this game. Because I tend to like to try rogue decks or rogue builds of established decks, and I feel that you never get better unless you are playing someone better than you, I loose more often than I win.
I was not clear enough in my exaggerated rant, but when I said "that I know of" I was trying to communicate that I was talking about for me personally. I then mentioned MaRo and AaFo because comments that they have made with regards to what research has shown what players find "fun" and "unfun". That is about as far as I am comfortable as I am extrapolating my opinion on other players. When I say "Mindslaver is the most unfun card in magic" I am talking about my opinion, since it would be pure arrogance to think that everyone thought like I did in this regard.
Also I was not truly making an assertion as to the actual existance of an afterlife, of a state of punnishment after death, or of what the requirements were for that punishment. Additionally I did not mean to advocate for the existance of the Judeo-Christian idea of "hell".
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I am brewing with Maralen of the Mornsong hoping to establish a lock with Isochron Scepter imprinted with Shadow of Doubt. The scepter is not bad without the other two cards and the shadow of doubt can Sinkhole a fetch land and can functionally cycle if it's really otherwise useless.
I think this would be really awesome when it works but it will be frustratingly hard to make it consistent and fast. It's a combo so compare it to storm while brewing
I had a casual deck that did that, and it was fun. It was not, however, very fast or consistent so I am doubtful it will do well competitively. It was fun though.
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So I guess by full lockdown, you would generally imply "i win" combo, that doesn't actually kill the turn it resolves.
I was talking about what happens when someone is taking a Mindslaver turn, not when the Mindslaver lock is already in place. There is a distinct difference between one Mindslavered turn and someone never having another turn in the game. I know this because I have been Slavered and gone on to win games, and I have Slavered people and gone on to lose games. That's what's fun about it: thinking about ways to win through your opponent using all of your available resources against you. Or just enjoying watching someone completely work a board position over.
I probably am in the minority. Then again, I respect a good beating when I see one--even if I'm the guy on the receiving end.
Of course. I was talking more about players in general, including myself. It's very difficult to strive to win a game, then take the loss in stride and immediately respect the opponent for winning the game. Naturally, if you're trying your hardest to win, it's a challenge to handle that distaste from losing. That feeling from Mindslaver that says "there's nothing I can do" is only going to make that harder after a loss, no matter how mature the player is.
Well, of course it's your opinion! I decided that it was worth sharing my opinion, as well, to have a counter-point in the discussion. I know you don't project your opinion on other people like that; sometimes when I share my opinion I can come on a bit strong because of my lust for debate.
Don't worry, there's a special place in Hell for the people who take everything literally.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=519290
Very true. But I can't think of any way to build a deck around this interaction that isn't too slow, clunky and inconsistent.
BRG Loam Control (Assault - Loam) BRG
W Mono White Control (Martyr - Proc) W
Perhaps I misunderstood because you never smile. Have you ever noticed that?
Reprint Opt for Modern!!
FREE DIG THOROUGH TIME!
PLAY MORE ROUGE DECKS!