Lumunate Primordial is 4/7, therefore not Mayaelable. Is he still worth it?
It's sort of a toss up imo. I'll probably put him in just to test it out but in particular if you are replacing something like Duplicant it's worth it. You still have things like Elvish Piper, Lurking Predators, Quicksilver Amulet etc to get it out.
Ragebeast really should have been a may ability, but I'll probably still run it since without risk you get no rewards haha.
The card I'm really considering alongside these new additions is Conjurer's Closet. I'd always wanted to put it in but never really had enough ETB effects to make it worthwhile. With the new Primordials, Ragebeast, and all the previous I think I'll give it a run in place of possibly Mimic Vat.
So Domri Rade, what do you all think? I kinda think it's almost usable. What I'm thinking is +1, see if it's worth the top card. If it's a good dude, don't reveal, if small dude, put into hand. The fight is good on its own, but kinda slow. Also cmc of 3 is cool.
So Domri Rade, what do you all think? I kinda think it's almost usable. What I'm thinking is +1, see if it's worth the top card. If it's a good dude, don't reveal, if small dude, put into hand. The fight is good on its own, but kinda slow. Also cmc of 3 is cool.
I'm aware that this deck's optimal version is hideously expensive to build. I've given a budget section some thought, as well as alternate decklists in general. If you're looking for budget ideas, a great place to look is the decklist history. There are a lot of cheap alternatives buried in there. I may even post some tribal decklists--I have a second Mayael deck put together right now, being Beast tribal.
EDIT: Added a budget list to the OP, a little over $200. If you're going to buy one pricey card for the deck, get a Scroll Rack. You won't regret it.
I'm wondering why you don't like Cream of the Crop. There's a Mayael deck in my meta that runs it and it is an absolute house. Combined with Lurking Predators you can lock down the table - they either refrain from casting spells (good for you) or you get free fatties (also good for you). Your comment in the OP says it forces you to use Mayael in your upkeep but I don't see how this is the case. For one, you're already running tons of deck fixing like Sylvan Library, Top, etc, and these fix that problem. For two, you can always just draw the card and activate Mayael later on, can't you?
Pros:
-Sets up your next activation of multiple cheats so you can ensure that your top card is either a fatty when you need one or not a fatty when you don't.
-Synergizes extremely well with Lurking Predators
-Gets absolutely silly with Illusionist's Bracers/Rings of Brighthearth/both
Cons:
-Possibility of tucking cards that you want (but this exists with Mayael anyways)
-Possibility of being forced to draw a fatty you'd rather have in your library (solved via topdeck fixing, Scroll Rack, etc)
-Doesn't do your laundry
The other card I wanted to mention is Guild Feud. Seems like a perfect addition in a deck that has, pound for pound, the best creatures you'll find at an EDH table. With all the deck fixing you have a very high likelihood of dropping a 6/6 and having it fight your opponent's 2/2 utility creature (if anything).
Hey, in your primer at card discussion. you review Angel of serenity twice, i know it's awesome but still also vagrant plowbeasts is out the deck now? Do we still have enough regen to make up for that?
Avacyn is a Plowbeast we don't have to pay mana to regenerate for. I feel too many defensive fatties makes the deck too durdly. We're the control deck in a fair number of matchups, but any U/x control at the table makes us want to be a bit more offensive. Our card draw isn't the greatest, and the control deck will find that Hallowed Burial/Terminus to get around your Avacyn/Spearbreaker.
Cream of the Crop would be played in addition to all these other cheating cards. Don't get me wrong, I feel we now have enough manipulation to try it. Guild Feud too. It's more an issue of what to cut. Everything in the deck is so powerful. Guild Feud will replace Domri Rade if that doesn't work out...I'm still testing him. He's alright, but most of the time he's +1: Look at the top card. You have to treat him like removal.
In terms of ramp that is usually to each player's taste. The OP makes a point of repeating himself on the fact that his list is hard to make cuts to, especially taking out one function to be replaced by another. This is hard to do, and it's where people consulting decklists to make their own, really need to add their own flavor.
Are Kozilek and Ulamog just SotF fodder? I understand how strong they are, but it seems sort of wasted when you don't get their "when cast" abilities by cheating them in. Do you just hardcast them normally?
Are Kozilek and Ulamog just SotF fodder? I understand how strong they are, but it seems sort of wasted when you don't get their "when cast" abilities by cheating them in. Do you just hardcast them normally?
Hi and welcome to the forums!
I'm not sure if you are kidding or not? But they are in this list specifically for a boatload of reasons. Aside from their minor affect of pitching to SotF for a graveyard scoop....
They are easily 2 of the best attacking creatures in the format with Annihilator 4, they deal a boatload of ETB damge with where the ancients tread or warstorm surge, they sac to greater good for ridiculous draw, they can be flashed in as blockers (if your opponent is stupid enough to swing on a mayael, piper, amulet etc. with mana open) by numerous cheats or at the end of an opponents turn, so they can attack on your turn with said Annhilator... and of course they both are easily hardcastable late game or even mid game with most ramp suites. Ulamog is already indestructble and if they somehow end up going to the yard and Stalking Vengeance doesn't kill someone for it... they are right back in the deck, ready to be Mayael'd or tutored up all over again.
I guess my question to you would be- Have you already been playing Mayael, or were just thinking about it? The type of question you asked definately raises more questions about where a player's mentality is at with this type of archetype.
Read through your list and wanted to ask you why you like Skarrg Goliath so much. He is in ALL your variants.
Also, what about Soulblast and Mage Slayer for some reach?
The guiding light to this primer and archtype has always been 'pay attention to your meta, no matter if it's a LGS or Kitchen Table- then add what you need to compete in that meta with whatever flavor you want to add of your own.'
Mage Slayer- Is a costly investment for a deck that wants to speed fat bodies with etb or value effects into play as fast as possible. Which is why most lists only run a few minor things like Boots of Haste to just protect Mayael or Piper or a high value creature.
If you can invest 6 mana to make it work for you, then by all means use it. But things like auto-fight and/or where the ancients tread and warstorm surge cover it's every utility for free and for every creature without any extra cost.
Soulblast is a REALLY risky wincon. I'd stay away from any tables that have countermagic used often, as the creature sacrafice is part of the cost and not optional for some/any. It has some really narrow themes it can run with, if you are heavy on Undying and Persist creatures or effects that will return creatures to play from the graveyard (which is not easy in Naya). I'd suggest only using it if you know it's not gonna be countered, and even then still tons of risk. (damage prevention, lifegain, reversal/copy effects)
If you were new to this type of deck, I'd caution you away from both those choices and advise you to try some of the lists the OP put up as a basis to build your own version off of, not use wacky high risk/resource intensive stuff right away. This deck is all about getting as much value out your fatties as possible and almost all the fatties have bonus effects that serve as various utility in addition to being giant-problematic to block bodies.
I'm not sure if you are kidding or not? But they are in this list specifically for a boatload of reasons. Aside from their minor affect of pitching to SotF for a graveyard scoop....
They are easily 2 of the best attacking creatures in the format with Annihilator 4, they deal a boatload of ETB damge with where the ancients tread or warstorm surge, they sac to greater good for ridiculous draw, they can be flashed in as blockers (if your opponent is stupid enough to swing on a mayael, piper, amulet etc. with mana open) by numerous cheats or at the end of an opponents turn, so they can attack on your turn with said Annhilator... and of course they both are easily hardcastable late game or even mid game with most ramp suites. Ulamog is already indestructble and if they somehow end up going to the yard and Stalking Vengeance doesn't kill someone for it... they are right back in the deck, ready to be Mayael'd or tutored up all over again.
I guess my question to you would be- Have you already been playing Mayael, or were just thinking about it? The type of question you asked definately raises more questions about where a player's mentality is at with this type of archetype.
It might just be my mindset. I play extremely casually and when I make a deck I commit to a theme even if it means gimping my own deck =P. I guess I just got too caught up in effects that are beneficial when brought in by Mayael. Again, since I'm in an extremely casual meta we don't always choose the "best" creatures. Thanks for the input though!
I don't think we can. His effect is symmetrical, and we run a lot of important noncreature spells.
I disagree, I think much like other game breaking effects, he can be played around and used to an advantage. Remember a lot of traditional mayael lists will already have their cheat effects and ramp effects on field. It is my preliminary belief that he can hurt a typical non-aggro deck far worse than he can hurt Mayael. Like a lot of other cards, you have to weigh the strengths against the risk, and I think he comes out working more often than not with Mayael.
I will definately test him to make sure, but I wouldn't easily dismiss him at this stage.
The card seems test worthy. Not the worst effect, but with Mayael you should always be leaving mana open for an activation or at least threaten with spells in hand. I dunno about you, but non creatures are very important in this deck for me.
The card seems test worthy. Not the worst effect, but with Mayael you should always be leaving mana open for an activation or at least threaten with spells in hand. I dunno about you, but non creatures are very important in this deck for me.
I am not sure I see any other creature in the format that automatically says "don't combo" and "don't play tons of little cantrip/draw spells". That factor alone is worth testing, he can warp a game around him. I am willing to hold off playing a few useful top decks (or just eat a little damage) if I already have a Mayael or cheat engine going on the field. Ruric Thar is also a huge bonus to protect the rest of our field from spot removal for ANY of your perms.
He's at worst a removal magnet and they have to eat 6 to the dome just to be rid of him... you also don't HAVE to play him if the board doesn't favor having him in play. He pitches to Survival and Fawna when you dont want him, he Sacs to greater good etc. if you need to play a spell and he effects the entire game the moment he resolves on the battlefield.
Right now, I am having trouble justfying keeping him off my list just because in some situations I may not want him out there. Suboptimal situations exist for all creatures in this deck, but since he is new, I think people are overrating his negatives in this list.
I am not sure I see any other creature in the format that automatically says "don't combo" and "don't play tons of little cantrip/draw spells". That factor alone is worth testing, he can warp a game around him. I am willing to hold off playing a few useful top decks (or just eat a little damage) if I already have a Mayael or cheat engine going on the field. Ruric Thar is also a huge bonus to protect the rest of our field from spot removal for ANY of your perms.
He's at worst a removal magnet and they have to eat 6 to the dome just to be rid of him... you also don't HAVE to play him if the board doesn't favor having him in play. He pitches to Survival and Fawna when you dont want him, he Sacs to greater good etc. if you need to play a spell and he effects the entire game the moment he resolves on the battlefield.
Right now, I am having trouble justfying keeping him off my list just because in some situations I may not want him out there. Suboptimal situations exist for all creatures in this deck, but since he is new, I think people are overrating his negatives in this list.
Clarify my stance. Was actually gonna do a proper response for the card earlier, but stuff came about and had to cut it to a line. The card is sick, and I kind of want to replace my Magmatic Force (the card isn't great, but eats up a board of small dudes really quickly) with him. Ruric Thar is a beast, that is undeniable, but since the effect is a global one, I fear for my life total too. There's a few cards that I don't want to Mayael into after a wrath, and this might be one of them.
Don't see why you don't run genesis if you do run survival. The recursion power plus engine it grants should not be underestimated. I also find that I am running significantly fewer fatties(maybe) 19 or so, in favor of more utility and answers.
I also run a few more mana rocks such as thran dynamo, as it allows me more explosive starts that are not as reliant on Mayael. The extra mana also allows me to run genesis wave which if resolved for <8, brings a huge nearly unbeatable advantage to me.
While I do love her dearly, I've found as the various metas I have played in developed, mayael often will be answered very quickly before I can use her, even when I run several protection spells such as boots and others things.(more often than not with counters)
having more mana rocks allows me to cast more than one creature a turn, which helps vs counterspells, and allows me to generate more threats without relying on mayael. Then once I am out of gas, I rely more on mayael to use the power of her deck filtering to keep going.
That's not to say I don't i have games with ramp and early protection for mayael without much else, where I gun to get her online ASAP, but unless I have an early rings or seedborn, gunning straight for mayael with ramp establishes me as the archenemy if I land one decent creature by turn 5. This can be risky when I don't have the extra digging from seedborn or other machines to be able to considerably threaten a kill on a player early on.
Getting a single strong creature out paints a pretty big target on your head, so you really need to be able to just barfem out more quickly, as I find I don't normally have time to develop my board with only one mayael a turn.
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It's sort of a toss up imo. I'll probably put him in just to test it out but in particular if you are replacing something like Duplicant it's worth it. You still have things like Elvish Piper, Lurking Predators, Quicksilver Amulet etc to get it out.
Ragebeast really should have been a may ability, but I'll probably still run it since without risk you get no rewards haha.
The card I'm really considering alongside these new additions is Conjurer's Closet. I'd always wanted to put it in but never really had enough ETB effects to make it worthwhile. With the new Primordials, Ragebeast, and all the previous I think I'll give it a run in place of possibly Mimic Vat.
:symr::symb: I hate your deck(Kaervek the Merciless)
Wait, how do I even hide it as a name title?
Kemba, Kostume
Ka...Oh god that's not a good alliteration.Wait, how do I even hide it as a name title?
Already picked one up for the deck!
Sig and Avatar Credit: Heroes of the Plane Studios
Yes. It is.
:symr::symb: I hate your deck(Kaervek the Merciless)
Wait, how do I even hide it as a name title?
Kemba, Kostume
Ka...Oh god that's not a good alliteration.Wait, how do I even hide it as a name title?
trying to get one now
Sig and Avatar Credit: Heroes of the Plane Studios
Unless you're running a gazillion ETB dudes and sac outlets, I disagree. Sneak Attack -> Greater Good is pure gravy though.
GTC update to come later today--writing it up now.
EDIT: Update up now.
Emille, Seven-Sting Dancer Shalin Nariya
WUB Sharuum the Hegemon, the Destroyer of Darksteel
BGW Teneb, the Harvester, my Pimped Out Reanimator
GUB The Mimeoplasm Ooze-Mill
GWU Rafiq the Exalted
EDIT: Added a budget list to the OP, a little over $200. If you're going to buy one pricey card for the deck, get a Scroll Rack. You won't regret it.
Emille, Seven-Sting Dancer Shalin Nariya
Pros:
-Sets up your next activation of multiple cheats so you can ensure that your top card is either a fatty when you need one or not a fatty when you don't.
-Synergizes extremely well with Lurking Predators
-Gets absolutely silly with Illusionist's Bracers/Rings of Brighthearth/both
Cons:
-Possibility of tucking cards that you want (but this exists with Mayael anyways)
-Possibility of being forced to draw a fatty you'd rather have in your library (solved via topdeck fixing, Scroll Rack, etc)
-Doesn't do your laundry
The other card I wanted to mention is Guild Feud. Seems like a perfect addition in a deck that has, pound for pound, the best creatures you'll find at an EDH table. With all the deck fixing you have a very high likelihood of dropping a 6/6 and having it fight your opponent's 2/2 utility creature (if anything).
Avacyn is a Plowbeast we don't have to pay mana to regenerate for. I feel too many defensive fatties makes the deck too durdly. We're the control deck in a fair number of matchups, but any U/x control at the table makes us want to be a bit more offensive. Our card draw isn't the greatest, and the control deck will find that Hallowed Burial/Terminus to get around your Avacyn/Spearbreaker.
Cream of the Crop would be played in addition to all these other cheating cards. Don't get me wrong, I feel we now have enough manipulation to try it. Guild Feud too. It's more an issue of what to cut. Everything in the deck is so powerful. Guild Feud will replace Domri Rade if that doesn't work out...I'm still testing him. He's alright, but most of the time he's +1: Look at the top card. You have to treat him like removal.
Speaking of library manipulation, how does Bonfire of the Damned sound?
Emille, Seven-Sting Dancer Shalin Nariya
Sig and Avatar Credit: Heroes of the Plane Studios
In terms of ramp that is usually to each player's taste. The OP makes a point of repeating himself on the fact that his list is hard to make cuts to, especially taking out one function to be replaced by another. This is hard to do, and it's where people consulting decklists to make their own, really need to add their own flavor.
I don't however run Contested Cliffs, run Warstorm Surge over Where the Ancients Tread and have a slightly different (read: more cutthroat) list of fatties. So my priorities are different from the get go.
On that note in my list I run: Lotus Cobra, Birds of Paradise and Somberwald Sage. Along with Congregation at Dawn to speed them out early game, or get some vital gamechangers late game.
For those I'd cut- Reap and Sow, Steely Resolve, Terminus off the top of my head for some of the above mentioned cards, as suggestions... but it really comes down to your meta or lack thereof.
:symu::symr::symw::symb::symg: Dream Halls :symu::symr::symw::symb::symg:
:symu::symw: U/W/x Landstill (now Miracles) :symu::symw:
:symu::symu: Merfolk :symu::symu:
contact me!
Hi and welcome to the forums!
I'm not sure if you are kidding or not? But they are in this list specifically for a boatload of reasons. Aside from their minor affect of pitching to SotF for a graveyard scoop....
They are easily 2 of the best attacking creatures in the format with Annihilator 4, they deal a boatload of ETB damge with where the ancients tread or warstorm surge, they sac to greater good for ridiculous draw, they can be flashed in as blockers (if your opponent is stupid enough to swing on a mayael, piper, amulet etc. with mana open) by numerous cheats or at the end of an opponents turn, so they can attack on your turn with said Annhilator... and of course they both are easily hardcastable late game or even mid game with most ramp suites. Ulamog is already indestructble and if they somehow end up going to the yard and Stalking Vengeance doesn't kill someone for it... they are right back in the deck, ready to be Mayael'd or tutored up all over again.
I guess my question to you would be- Have you already been playing Mayael, or were just thinking about it? The type of question you asked definately raises more questions about where a player's mentality is at with this type of archetype.
:symu::symr::symw::symb::symg: Dream Halls :symu::symr::symw::symb::symg:
:symu::symw: U/W/x Landstill (now Miracles) :symu::symw:
:symu::symu: Merfolk :symu::symu:
contact me!
The guiding light to this primer and archtype has always been 'pay attention to your meta, no matter if it's a LGS or Kitchen Table- then add what you need to compete in that meta with whatever flavor you want to add of your own.'
Mage Slayer- Is a costly investment for a deck that wants to speed fat bodies with etb or value effects into play as fast as possible. Which is why most lists only run a few minor things like Boots of Haste to just protect Mayael or Piper or a high value creature.
If you can invest 6 mana to make it work for you, then by all means use it. But things like auto-fight and/or where the ancients tread and warstorm surge cover it's every utility for free and for every creature without any extra cost.
Soulblast is a REALLY risky wincon. I'd stay away from any tables that have countermagic used often, as the creature sacrafice is part of the cost and not optional for some/any. It has some really narrow themes it can run with, if you are heavy on Undying and Persist creatures or effects that will return creatures to play from the graveyard (which is not easy in Naya). I'd suggest only using it if you know it's not gonna be countered, and even then still tons of risk. (damage prevention, lifegain, reversal/copy effects)
If you were new to this type of deck, I'd caution you away from both those choices and advise you to try some of the lists the OP put up as a basis to build your own version off of, not use wacky high risk/resource intensive stuff right away. This deck is all about getting as much value out your fatties as possible and almost all the fatties have bonus effects that serve as various utility in addition to being giant-problematic to block bodies.
:symu::symr::symw::symb::symg: Dream Halls :symu::symr::symw::symb::symg:
:symu::symw: U/W/x Landstill (now Miracles) :symu::symw:
:symu::symu: Merfolk :symu::symu:
contact me!
It might just be my mindset. I play extremely casually and when I make a deck I commit to a theme even if it means gimping my own deck =P. I guess I just got too caught up in effects that are beneficial when brought in by Mayael. Again, since I'm in an extremely casual meta we don't always choose the "best" creatures. Thanks for the input though!
Giant Adephage is so much fun, exceptionally when copied by an enemy Metamorph.
I thought Skarrg Goliath will be another dumb beater, but his Bloodrush ability had won me a game.
Looking forward to dig up the artifact stealing dragon against out Sharuum player.
Modern: RWB Burn G Infect B Infect BR Nivmiseit
Standard: R Red Deck Wins
I don't think we can. His effect is symmetrical, and we run a lot of important noncreature spells.
Emille, Seven-Sting Dancer Shalin Nariya
I disagree, I think much like other game breaking effects, he can be played around and used to an advantage. Remember a lot of traditional mayael lists will already have their cheat effects and ramp effects on field. It is my preliminary belief that he can hurt a typical non-aggro deck far worse than he can hurt Mayael. Like a lot of other cards, you have to weigh the strengths against the risk, and I think he comes out working more often than not with Mayael.
I will definately test him to make sure, but I wouldn't easily dismiss him at this stage.
:symu::symr::symw::symb::symg: Dream Halls :symu::symr::symw::symb::symg:
:symu::symw: U/W/x Landstill (now Miracles) :symu::symw:
:symu::symu: Merfolk :symu::symu:
contact me!
:symr::symb: I hate your deck(Kaervek the Merciless)
Wait, how do I even hide it as a name title?
Kemba, Kostume
Ka...Oh god that's not a good alliteration.Wait, how do I even hide it as a name title?
I am not sure I see any other creature in the format that automatically says "don't combo" and "don't play tons of little cantrip/draw spells". That factor alone is worth testing, he can warp a game around him. I am willing to hold off playing a few useful top decks (or just eat a little damage) if I already have a Mayael or cheat engine going on the field. Ruric Thar is also a huge bonus to protect the rest of our field from spot removal for ANY of your perms.
He's at worst a removal magnet and they have to eat 6 to the dome just to be rid of him... you also don't HAVE to play him if the board doesn't favor having him in play. He pitches to Survival and Fawna when you dont want him, he Sacs to greater good etc. if you need to play a spell and he effects the entire game the moment he resolves on the battlefield.
Right now, I am having trouble justfying keeping him off my list just because in some situations I may not want him out there. Suboptimal situations exist for all creatures in this deck, but since he is new, I think people are overrating his negatives in this list.
$0.02
:symu::symr::symw::symb::symg: Dream Halls :symu::symr::symw::symb::symg:
:symu::symw: U/W/x Landstill (now Miracles) :symu::symw:
:symu::symu: Merfolk :symu::symu:
contact me!
Clarify my stance. Was actually gonna do a proper response for the card earlier, but stuff came about and had to cut it to a line. The card is sick, and I kind of want to replace my Magmatic Force (the card isn't great, but eats up a board of small dudes really quickly) with him. Ruric Thar is a beast, that is undeniable, but since the effect is a global one, I fear for my life total too. There's a few cards that I don't want to Mayael into after a wrath, and this might be one of them.
He's good, but is he good here is the question.
:symr::symb: I hate your deck(Kaervek the Merciless)
Wait, how do I even hide it as a name title?
Kemba, Kostume
Ka...Oh god that's not a good alliteration.Wait, how do I even hide it as a name title?
I also run a few more mana rocks such as thran dynamo, as it allows me more explosive starts that are not as reliant on Mayael. The extra mana also allows me to run genesis wave which if resolved for <8, brings a huge nearly unbeatable advantage to me.
While I do love her dearly, I've found as the various metas I have played in developed, mayael often will be answered very quickly before I can use her, even when I run several protection spells such as boots and others things.(more often than not with counters)
having more mana rocks allows me to cast more than one creature a turn, which helps vs counterspells, and allows me to generate more threats without relying on mayael. Then once I am out of gas, I rely more on mayael to use the power of her deck filtering to keep going.
That's not to say I don't i have games with ramp and early protection for mayael without much else, where I gun to get her online ASAP, but unless I have an early rings or seedborn, gunning straight for mayael with ramp establishes me as the archenemy if I land one decent creature by turn 5. This can be risky when I don't have the extra digging from seedborn or other machines to be able to considerably threaten a kill on a player early on.
Getting a single strong creature out paints a pretty big target on your head, so you really need to be able to just barfem out more quickly, as I find I don't normally have time to develop my board with only one mayael a turn.