maze is horribly overrated. when the format was about haymakers years ago, it was a great card. now that decks are about synergy, who combos the fastest and with CiP effects everywhere... the card is pretty sub par. a missed land drop in todays EDH is certain doom.
there is no such thing as format staples that you must play in every deck.
@Madhatter00o:
Ad. 1. I didn't have any problems acquiring my copy and I'm from Poland, where MtG took off much much later, than in the USA.
Ah, but does everyone have one? I'm not going to sit here and lecture about the basics of supply and demand, but I will say that compared to all the Magic cards out there (yes, every. single one.) only a certain number of them are Maze of Ith. And that number far below the number desired by all the Magic players there are who want one (or more).
I will cede that my intended meaning (i.e. that Maze of Ith is rare in the big picture) may not have come through clearly.
Ad. 3. I don't think deciding whether a card is a staple or not because it occurs in some percentage of decks on the Internet is not logical. I wouldn't run MoI in Azusa but I'd run it in GAA4.
Your double-negatives confuse me... Or triple-negatives; it's a little hard to tell.
I've always thought that Maze of Ith is a wildly overrated card, and I'd be curious to hear people's thoughts on the matter.
Basically, I think that people tend to consider it a "utility land" when the fact that it doesn't tap for mana means it's basically not a land at all. Consider the following card:
Aize of Myth - 2
Artifact
T: Untap target attacking creature and remove it from combat.
This card isn't terrible. I'd consider running it in a control deck. But it's nothing special, and it's certainly not an auto-include. How many of your decks would you run it in?
Personally, I'd much rather spend two mana than a land drop, so I'm doubly opposed to Maze of Ith. But even if it cost zero, would it really be worth a card slot? How many cards do you run that do nothing to advance your gameplan or permanently answer threats?
The idea that the type "land" is itself an advantage is hardly true anymore. There aren't *that* many ways to make it tap for mana, and people are running increasingly high amounts of targeted land destruction to deal with all the utility lands in the format. Almost everyone runs Strip Mine (even when they probably shouldn't).
TLDR - Maze of Ith is overrated and should be at best a niche card, rather than a format staple. Agree/disagree?
It's a huge PITA when you don't have shroud on your general, but since we have at least 2 very playable equipment that grant immunity to maze of ith I can see where you'd make the case it was over rated.
I don't own/use it because I can seldom afford non-mana producing lands. It's solid utility in G/X decks that can ramp while dropping it.
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I'd like to reiterate that Maze doesn't just work on opposing generals. It eliminates the damage from cards like Wrexial, or untaps your own creature after the damage dealing phase so it can block, too. I think some people are looking at it too narrowly in terms of "Oh, its only use is to stop a Voltron general".
Maze isn't overrated at all. It's a good utility land versus most of decks, even that, it can help your commander to trigger attacks (I use it with Zur), but I can't remember a game where it was a gamebreaker and I don't think a missed it to much if I take it away.
Unless I'm missing something, Maze of Ith shouldn't save a creature from Condemn. Maze doesn't remove the creature from combat, it just untaps it and prevents damage it would deal/be dealt. The creature would still be an attacking creature and Condemn would still tuck it. Right?
Unless I'm missing something, Maze of Ith shouldn't save a creature from Condemn. Maze doesn't remove the creature from combat, it just untaps it and prevents damage it would deal/be dealt. The creature would still be an attacking creature and Condemn would still tuck it. Right?
Yes, ambiguity between old/current wording on the card causes this.
I personally prefer Kor Haven. Maze was better against decks that lacked sophistication. Modern decks are more tuned and generally just ignore the maze or are vexed by it. Basically, the decks that actually run cards like wrexial, the risen deep are the ones hurt by it. Most u/b decks don't want a card that janky.
With the loss of Primeval Titan, the card will only continue to fall in use. You have to play it as a land, if you want to blow a tutor on it, just tutor for something better. Kor Haven produces mana, and is better because of that.
Could you list all the benefits of running and using Maze? For what I know with Maze I can:
1. prevent some damage heading my/somebody's way,
2. untap my/somebody's creature after attacking,
3. save my/somebody's general from Condemn,
4. ...?
So even if this was all it did, having it do that FOR FREE every turn, you don't think that's worth a slot?
It also screws up other people's combat math, stops utility attackers from getting hit by a flashed in creature, just all around good combat stuff.
Sure it's bad if you play against a lot of combo or non-red zone decks. Thats pretty rare for my meta, maybe thats the difference.
I own two of them and have for a very very long time. Honestly I dont find it to be worth it in MOST decks. I dont want to give up a card for what it does as I find it small and narrow. I want my lands to tap for mana and the fact that it doesnt means you have to sacrifice your mana advancement in the early game to play it.
I think this is misplaying the card. If you treat it like a spell even in your hand and drop it when you need to stop something or you have no mana producing land to drop it does not set you back. It being a land makes people misplay it I think, and that leads to some of the 'it is a narrow land' mentality.
If people are sick of reading about stuff just stop taking part. You have 100% control over what you read. Simic Ascendancy isn't going to get banned just because you didn't tell someone to shut up on the internet.
a cards' occurence in decklists does not make it a staple, no matter the percentage (big or small).
If a card was in 100% of decks, it still might not be a staple? How would you define the term 'staple' then?
I posted the stats from the Real Top 50 because we are discussing whether or not Maze of Ith is considered a staple, with the term 'staple' describing a card that should be included in every deck. Obviously staples in EDH are often limited by colour, but in this case as a colourless card Maze of Ith could appear in every deck list. I agree it is a relatively rare card, and for that reason may be excluded from some decks that would run it. However, many deck lists in this database are played on programs such as Cockatrice, in which you can play cards that are otherwise extremely rare and exorbitantly expensive. I would still expect it to appear in a higher percentage of decks if it truly were a staple of the format.
It is a good card, unique and serves a few different functions, but in my opinion, in this format there are better utility cards and answer cards available and superficially the statistics seem to agree.
If a card was in 100% of decks, it still might not be a staple? How would you define the term 'staple' then?
I posted the stats from the Real Top 50 because we are discussing whether or not Maze of Ith is considered a staple, with the term 'staple' describing a card that should be included in every deck. Obviously staples in EDH are often limited by colour, but in this case as a colourless card Maze of Ith could appear in every deck list. I agree it is a relatively rare card, and for that reason may be excluded from some decks that would run it. However, many deck lists in this database are played on programs such as Cockatrice, in which you can play cards that are otherwise extremely rare and exorbitantly expensive. I would still expect it to appear in a higher percentage of decks if it truly were a staple of the format.
It is a good card, unique and serves a few different functions, but in my opinion, in this format there are better utility cards and answer cards available and superficially the statistics seem to agree.
I am going to have to go with this.
The question was "Is maze a staple or not?" Not is maze a good card.
Numbers don't lie in a thread full of opions the numbers are the only facts we have to go off of.
I think a common fallacy in opening a single card discussion thread is not specifying the specific situation on which you are critiquing.
there is a difference in Maze of Ith's performance value in different meta groups.
Competative combo metas that focus less around creatures and more about spell combo and land d, yes of course Maze of Ith isn't worth a spell or land slot. I think most people would agree with you on that.
What about the players in metas that see stompy voltron decks and creature damage? I can tell you right now the group i play in, Maze of Ith is a perfectly viable card. Even in a tuned deck in a format where people are playing green/blue/black / jund/ dragon decks, Maze is still going to be a great 6th turn draw. I play the maze for politics, i don't consider it a land spot, i consider it a spell slot, and i would never run the maze instead of solid point removal, it's always in addition to. It's a rattlesnake and deterrant and i can use it every turn. Eventually you run out of 1 shot tricks like Condemn.
you have to be willing to accept multiple answers to your question, namely that: situationally, Maze of Ith can be a perfectly good card for even tuned decks.
a point i DO want to make on this is that the follow-up logical argument then is that the maze should therefore, not be considered a staple. A staple implies every deck, every meta (My personal opinion is this list is very small. Mana Crypt/Vault and Sol Ring make up the majority of the list). And i would agree.
On Kor Haven vs. Maze of Ith, i think Kor Haven is inherently less "stapleish" than the Maze on the sheer fact that you have to be running white. just plainly means less decks that it can be used in. Would i run the maze over kor haven when i have white? No. Would i run them together? Probably (and i do), in kaalia or Mayael where tapping a general produces fun stuff. In those cases, I use it for extra general shenanigans. Almost any general that says "tap & do something" can benefit from extra tapping. Being applicable in combat on an opponent's creature is a bonus.
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If people are sick of reading about stuff just stop taking part. You have 100% control over what you read. Simic Ascendancy isn't going to get banned just because you didn't tell someone to shut up on the internet.
You would put MAZE in a top 3 of banning poll? What does it do that is even close to banning potential?
Let me explain. When I'm thinking of cards I'd like banned, I think to myself what cards absolutely destroy certain archetypes and strategies. Necropotence is hard for control to deal with, but it absolutely eviscerates and nullifies discard as a strategy. So I reason that if I want a wider variety archetypes played competitively, which I do, I would like to see that card banned.
Maze destroys a lot of decks, absolutely crushes the purpose of them. So many people in the threat so far have reasoned how bad Maze must be because Boots shuts it off. But they're forgetting that the existence of Maze mandates the use of Boots in the first place. Not theft, there are better solutions to that, like sacrifice and Homeward Path. Not removal, spot can be used in response to the equip and sweepers don't care. Not clone - all those effects get by shroud. It's because of Maze that you need to run Boots. Consequently, all the still playable Vultron strategies are in white for equipment tutors, green for Acidic Slime, and are still substantially limited in their options because of Maze. Red's haste is worth less because, hey, you need to play Boots anyway because of Maze. Blight Dragon Vultron is not a serious contender because it can't tutor for boots, and it can't answer Maze on the board (outside of unplayables like Sinkhole).
So being as Vultron is the fastest aggro in the format, this cuts the playable aggro decks down by about half. Then the format gravitates over to more combo and control, people start to whisper how bad of a card Maze is, they drop it from their decks, then Timmy picks up some non-token aggro, and at that point everyone realizes once again how good of a card Maze is and puts it back in. Overnight, Timmy's deck doesn't work. All that needs to happen is for one person at the table of 4 to draw their Maze.
There's a difference in Maze's performance value through different play groups, sure. But also, the mere existence, threat and possibility of it affects the format universally. Certain otherwise powerful decks are so thoroughly and so easily answered by it, and so if and when they do show up they don't last and aren't taken seriously.
Maze destroys a lot of decks, absolutely crushes the purpose of them. So many people in the threat so far have reasoned how bad Maze must be because Boots shuts it off. But they're forgetting that the existence of Maze mandates the use of Boots in the first place. Not theft, there are better solutions to that, like sacrifice and Homeward Path. Not removal, spot can be used in response to the equip and sweepers don't care. Not clone - all those effects get by shroud. It's because of Maze that you need to run Boots.
Greaves/Boots is run in voltron decks because of spot removal and, most importantly, theft. Yes, you can sac in response or hope to get Homeward Path, but it's much easier to be proactive against theft and simply make your glass cannon untargetable instead. There are tons of answers to generals without hexproof/shroud; Maze of Ith is only one of those answers (and not the best one). Voltron strategies are inherently fragile because you're essentially putting all of your eggs in one basket. It's not just Maze that exploits this weakness. Basically, I think you're greatly overestimating Maze of Ith's impact on the format.
Consequently, all the still playable Vultron strategies are in white for equipment tutors, green for Acidic Slime, and are still substantially limited in their options because of Maze. Red's haste is worth less because, hey, you need to play Boots anyway because of Maze.
The playable voltron generals are in green and white because
A) Green and white get the biggest creatures, so the G/W generals present a fast enough clock for a voltron strategy to work
B) G/W creatures get abilities that make them better in combat and at dealing damage (trample, exalted, and flying, to name a few), which is conducive to a voltron strategy, and, most importantly
C) G/W creatures often get abilities that make them resilient to answers (uncounterability, indestructibility, and hexproof, for example). And yes, hexproof and shroud get around Maze of Ith, which is one of the reasons they are good abilities, but there are a million other cards that they're good against as well.
White's equipment tutors certainly help many voltron strategies, but Maze of Ith is not the only reason why equipment tutors are good, and if Maze was banned, equipment tutors would still be essential to many voltron strategies. It's also worth noting that some voltron generals, such as Zur, are often fine without equipment, even though they have access to white.
And obviously having answers to nonland permanents is one of the reasons that green is good in EDH, but people don't run G/x voltron generals solely so they can have answers to Maze of Ith. That's just silly. Also, Strip Mine, Wasteland, and Dust Bowl are cards that every color has access to.
Blight Dragon Vultron is not a serious contender because it can't tutor for boots, and it can't answer Maze on the board (outside of unplayables like Sinkhole).
Last I checked, black had the best tutor suite of any color. There's a long list of cards in black that can tutor for Greaves/Boots. Also, Skittles Voltron is not limited by Maze of Ith, it's limited by the fact that it runs out of steam before it can kill an entire table. Mono-colored voltron decks are also even more inherently fragile than normal voltron decks, as the weakness of the voltron strategy is compounded by the weakness of only having access to a single color (although obviously there are advantages as well). Skittles Voltron suffers from this weakness. Maze of Ith is only one of many cards that hoses it.
Let me explain. When I'm thinking of cards I'd like banned, I think to myself what cards absolutely destroy certain archetypes and strategies. Necropotence is hard for control to deal with, but it absolutely eviscerates and nullifies discard as a strategy. So I reason that if I want a wider variety archetypes played competitively, which I do, I would like to see that card banned.
Maze destroys a lot of decks, absolutely crushes the purpose of them. So many people in the threat so far have reasoned how bad Maze must be because Boots shuts it off. But they're forgetting that the existence of Maze mandates the use of Boots in the first place. Not theft, there are better solutions to that, like sacrifice and Homeward Path. Not removal, spot can be used in response to the equip and sweepers don't care. Not clone - all those effects get by shroud. It's because of Maze that you need to run Boots. Consequently, all the still playable Vultron strategies are in white for equipment tutors, green for Acidic Slime, and are still substantially limited in their options because of Maze. Red's haste is worth less because, hey, you need to play Boots anyway because of Maze. Blight Dragon Vultron is not a serious contender because it can't tutor for boots, and it can't answer Maze on the board (outside of unplayables like Sinkhole).
So being as Vultron is the fastest aggro in the format, this cuts the playable aggro decks down by about half. Then the format gravitates over to more combo and control, people start to whisper how bad of a card Maze is, they drop it from their decks, then Timmy picks up some non-token aggro, and at that point everyone realizes once again how good of a card Maze is and puts it back in. Overnight, Timmy's deck doesn't work. All that needs to happen is for one person at the table of 4 to draw their Maze.
There's a difference in Maze's performance value through different play groups, sure. But also, the mere existence, threat and possibility of it affects the format universally. Certain otherwise powerful decks are so thoroughly and so easily answered by it, and so if and when they do show up they don't last and aren't taken seriously.
Maze is a great card, but that is a terrible explination about why it should be banned.
People would have to adjust, so lets ban a card that does not violate any guideline, does not centalize games, and does not create unfun games?
If people are sick of reading about stuff just stop taking part. You have 100% control over what you read. Simic Ascendancy isn't going to get banned just because you didn't tell someone to shut up on the internet.
Missing a land drop seriously annoys me. While it's pretty good in the early game, the effects of being one mana behind everyone can ripple out in a bad way. I don't particularly consider my EDH group to be particularly competitive, but we do generally have very smooth mana bases, so sacrificing the turn-by-turn accumulation of resources for a land that can only shut down one guy (when the whole table would be that much more likely to attack you) is actually quite scary.
Great for control decks, and actually piss poor in everything else, in my opinion.
If your deck plays at instant speed, play it;
if your deck plays at sorcery speed, I wouldn't.
It boils down to that for me.
Missing a land drop seriously annoys me. While it's pretty good in the early game, the effects of being one mana behind everyone can ripple out in a bad way. I don't particularly consider my EDH group to be particularly competitive, but we do generally have very smooth mana bases, so sacrificing the turn-by-turn accumulation of resources for a land that can only shut down one guy (when the whole table would be that much more likely to attack you) is actually quite scary.
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Uril and Zur are still in White, and white has SFM. Irrelevant besides, because Zur tutors for shroud/Vanishing, while Uril already has hexproof, as does Sigarda if you want to go there. So basically, playing generals where you don't have to answer maze is... better? Point proven.
Sure, Acidic Slime is in decks for a lot of reasons, and Maze is only one of those, sure. But a card's quality overall is measured by versatility, adaptability, reuseability, permanence, etc. Slime is played because it answers Maze, and because of these qualities. Sinkhole answers Maze but is not played because it would do little else. Black decks are therefore much worse than they otherwise would be because they need to answer maze, and can't.
Black has a good tutor package, sure, but consider that you have to tutor for boots every game. Enlightened Tutor = Vampiric for those purposes, and SFM has more recurrability and versatility than Demonic. And besides as you mentioned, defensive abilities generally are better in those colors. So since black has nothing to offer, and its tutor advantage is spent because of Maze and others, black aggro decks are considerably worse because of being forced to answer Maze.
Theft is theft. It will continue to be a threat to vultron. But there's a host of things that solve it that don't solve maze. Homeward Path and sacrifice, already mentioned, as well as pro-blue, one-shot hexproof effects, etc. So all in all, vultron still has to answer Maze, and it's still substantially worse off for having to do so.
That's it. They're substantially and intractably worse off because they need to answer Maze. Sure, mono-color will suffer from being mono-color. Skittles will suffer from being skittles. But Maze causes problems for Vultron, and those problems are substantial and intractable.
Whether this creates "unfun" games, that's a matter of opinion. A game might not be fun for Player A playing Skittles when Player B is on the ropes, casts Realms Uncharted letting Player C choose, then Player C chooses to give him Maze because he knows Player A will go onto him after he's finished with B. A game might not be fun for someone who has to spend the rest of the game trying to topdeck one of three cards in his deck that either gives shroud or answers a land, because he can't recast his general as he normally would when it's removed. That kind of game is pretty "centralized" on control and "unfun" for vultron, in my opinion. And adjust? Maze demands such specific answers that you can't. Sure, it's not going to break the format across all deck-types, and thus doesn't strike the "banworthy" moniker the way other cards do, but it does warp the format and keep otherwise good strategies out.
Whether this creates "unfun" games, that's a matter of opinion. A game might not be fun for Player A playing Skittles when Player B is on the ropes, casts Realms Uncharted letting Player C choose, then Player C chooses to give him Maze because he knows Player A will go onto him after he's finished with B. A game might not be fun for someone who has to spend the rest of the game trying to topdeck one of three cards in his deck that either gives shroud or answers a land, because he can't recast his general as he normally would when it's removed. That kind of game is pretty "centralized" on control and "unfun" for vultron, in my opinion. And adjust? Maze demands such specific answers that you can't. Sure, it's not going to break the format across all deck-types, and thus doesn't strike the "banworthy" moniker the way other cards do, but it does warp the format and keep otherwise good strategies out.
I agree, but losing or not drawing answers it not really an unfun gamestate that can be addressed with a banning. It happens, hope people you play against are cool enough to end quicklly and get another game.
In a voltron deck you have to adjust your cards and strat to avoid removal and theaft like you said. Land destruction is a thing, it is ALWAYS useful.
If people are sick of reading about stuff just stop taking part. You have 100% control over what you read. Simic Ascendancy isn't going to get banned just because you didn't tell someone to shut up on the internet.
Uril and Zur are still in White, and white has SFM. Irrelevant besides, because Zur tutors for shroud/Vanishing, while Uril already has hexproof, as does Sigarda if you want to go there. So basically, playing generals where you don't have to answer maze is... better? Point proven.
Fair enough. I was just pointing out that white is run for reasons besides its equipment tutor package. It's not really relevant to our main discussion about Maze, but I wanted to clarify.
Sure, Acidic Slime is in decks for a lot of reasons, and Maze is only one of those, sure. But a card's quality overall is measured by versatility, adaptability, reuseability, permanence, etc. Slime is played because it answers Maze, and because of these qualities. Sinkhole answers Maze but is not played because it would do little else. Black decks are therefore much worse than they otherwise would be because they need to answer maze, and can't.
Black has a good tutor package, sure, but consider that you have to tutor for boots every game. Enlightened Tutor = Vampiric for those purposes, and SFM has more recurrability and versatility than Demonic. And besides as you mentioned, defensive abilities generally are better in those colors. So since black has nothing to offer, and its tutor advantage is spent because of Maze and others, black aggro decks are considerably worse because of being forced to answer Maze.
Theft is theft. It will continue to be a threat to vultron. But there's a host of things that solve it that don't solve maze. Homeward Path and sacrifice, already mentioned, as well as pro-blue, one-shot hexproof effects, etc. So all in all, vultron still has to answer Maze, and it's still substantially worse off for having to do so.
That's it. They're substantially and intractably worse off because they need to answer Maze. Sure, mono-color will suffer from being mono-color. Skittles will suffer from being skittles. But Maze causes problems for Vultron, and those problems are substantial and intractable.
...[I]t does warp the format and keep otherwise good strategies out.
See, the thing is I agree with basically everything you're saying except the [I]degree[/I] to which voltron decks are worse off because of Maze of Ith. They're definitely worse off, but I just don't think Maze is as significant as you think. Yes, Maze is harder to answer than theft/tuck effects, which consequently makes voltron worse. Yes, mono black has trouble answering it, which is one of mono black voltron's many weaknesses. Yes, a G/x voltron general without hexproof should have versatile answers that can hit Maze of Ith. All that is true. But Maze of Ith is not what is making voltron generals unplayable. I guarantee you that if you banned Maze of Ith today, Skithiryx would remain virtually just as good/bad as he is right now. He might get slightly better, but not much. Same goes for other voltron strategies.
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No...
1. It's an old card that's not exactly easy to come by. The new, shiny FTV version was released in limited quantities, as well.
2. There are other formats besides EDH that make use of Maze. The demand based on those players can drive up the cost of a card across formats.
3. Looking at a card's frequency among a large sample of decks is probably the best "objective" measure of ascertaining whether or not it's a staple.
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Palladia-Mors of {The Spirit of EDH}
EDH
WLinvala, Queen of the AngelsW
WUThe Prison of the Grand ArbiterUW [Primer]
URNiv-Mizzet, Handcycling ComboRU
UTalrand, Drake-Slinging to VictoryU
WUGDerevi, Tactical ShufflingGUW
BCao Cao, Discard Stax of Absolute MiseryB
there is no such thing as format staples that you must play in every deck.
Ah, but does everyone have one? I'm not going to sit here and lecture about the basics of supply and demand, but I will say that compared to all the Magic cards out there (yes, every. single one.) only a certain number of them are Maze of Ith. And that number far below the number desired by all the Magic players there are who want one (or more).
I will cede that my intended meaning (i.e. that Maze of Ith is rare in the big picture) may not have come through clearly.
Your double-negatives confuse me... Or triple-negatives; it's a little hard to tell.
Anyways, I agree with you that Maze shouldn't be in every deck. I shall refer you to the previous page, where I discussed this exact topic: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=9160741&postcount=75
Thank you to Rivenor for this awesome banner!
Palladia-Mors of {The Spirit of EDH}
EDH
WLinvala, Queen of the AngelsW
WUThe Prison of the Grand ArbiterUW [Primer]
URNiv-Mizzet, Handcycling ComboRU
UTalrand, Drake-Slinging to VictoryU
WUGDerevi, Tactical ShufflingGUW
BCao Cao, Discard Stax of Absolute MiseryB
It's a huge PITA when you don't have shroud on your general, but since we have at least 2 very playable equipment that grant immunity to maze of ith I can see where you'd make the case it was over rated.
I don't own/use it because I can seldom afford non-mana producing lands. It's solid utility in G/X decks that can ramp while dropping it.
Yes, ambiguity between old/current wording on the card causes this.
I personally prefer Kor Haven. Maze was better against decks that lacked sophistication. Modern decks are more tuned and generally just ignore the maze or are vexed by it. Basically, the decks that actually run cards like wrexial, the risen deep are the ones hurt by it. Most u/b decks don't want a card that janky.
With the loss of Primeval Titan, the card will only continue to fall in use. You have to play it as a land, if you want to blow a tutor on it, just tutor for something better. Kor Haven produces mana, and is better because of that.
It also screws up other people's combat math, stops utility attackers from getting hit by a flashed in creature, just all around good combat stuff.
Sure it's bad if you play against a lot of combo or non-red zone decks. Thats pretty rare for my meta, maybe thats the difference.
I think this is misplaying the card. If you treat it like a spell even in your hand and drop it when you need to stop something or you have no mana producing land to drop it does not set you back. It being a land makes people misplay it I think, and that leads to some of the 'it is a narrow land' mentality.
If a card was in 100% of decks, it still might not be a staple? How would you define the term 'staple' then?
I posted the stats from the Real Top 50 because we are discussing whether or not Maze of Ith is considered a staple, with the term 'staple' describing a card that should be included in every deck. Obviously staples in EDH are often limited by colour, but in this case as a colourless card Maze of Ith could appear in every deck list. I agree it is a relatively rare card, and for that reason may be excluded from some decks that would run it. However, many deck lists in this database are played on programs such as Cockatrice, in which you can play cards that are otherwise extremely rare and exorbitantly expensive. I would still expect it to appear in a higher percentage of decks if it truly were a staple of the format.
It is a good card, unique and serves a few different functions, but in my opinion, in this format there are better utility cards and answer cards available and superficially the statistics seem to agree.
I am going to have to go with this.
The question was "Is maze a staple or not?" Not is maze a good card.
Numbers don't lie in a thread full of opions the numbers are the only facts we have to go off of.
So is maze a staple: The numbers say no.
Is maze a good card: I would say yes.
Gelf Thank You for doing the numbers for us.
there is a difference in Maze of Ith's performance value in different meta groups.
Competative combo metas that focus less around creatures and more about spell combo and land d, yes of course Maze of Ith isn't worth a spell or land slot. I think most people would agree with you on that.
What about the players in metas that see stompy voltron decks and creature damage? I can tell you right now the group i play in, Maze of Ith is a perfectly viable card. Even in a tuned deck in a format where people are playing green/blue/black / jund/ dragon decks, Maze is still going to be a great 6th turn draw. I play the maze for politics, i don't consider it a land spot, i consider it a spell slot, and i would never run the maze instead of solid point removal, it's always in addition to. It's a rattlesnake and deterrant and i can use it every turn. Eventually you run out of 1 shot tricks like Condemn.
you have to be willing to accept multiple answers to your question, namely that: situationally, Maze of Ith can be a perfectly good card for even tuned decks.
a point i DO want to make on this is that the follow-up logical argument then is that the maze should therefore, not be considered a staple. A staple implies every deck, every meta (My personal opinion is this list is very small. Mana Crypt/Vault and Sol Ring make up the majority of the list). And i would agree.
On Kor Haven vs. Maze of Ith, i think Kor Haven is inherently less "stapleish" than the Maze on the sheer fact that you have to be running white. just plainly means less decks that it can be used in. Would i run the maze over kor haven when i have white? No. Would i run them together? Probably (and i do), in kaalia or Mayael where tapping a general produces fun stuff. In those cases, I use it for extra general shenanigans. Almost any general that says "tap & do something" can benefit from extra tapping. Being applicable in combat on an opponent's creature is a bonus.
EDH:
Currently Piloting:
Dama, Sage of Stone | Karador, Ghost Chieftan | Sigarda, Host of Herons | Elbrus, the Binding Blade / Withengar Unbound | Grand Arbiter Augustin IV | Genju of the Realm | Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
Let me explain. When I'm thinking of cards I'd like banned, I think to myself what cards absolutely destroy certain archetypes and strategies. Necropotence is hard for control to deal with, but it absolutely eviscerates and nullifies discard as a strategy. So I reason that if I want a wider variety archetypes played competitively, which I do, I would like to see that card banned.
Maze destroys a lot of decks, absolutely crushes the purpose of them. So many people in the threat so far have reasoned how bad Maze must be because Boots shuts it off. But they're forgetting that the existence of Maze mandates the use of Boots in the first place. Not theft, there are better solutions to that, like sacrifice and Homeward Path. Not removal, spot can be used in response to the equip and sweepers don't care. Not clone - all those effects get by shroud. It's because of Maze that you need to run Boots. Consequently, all the still playable Vultron strategies are in white for equipment tutors, green for Acidic Slime, and are still substantially limited in their options because of Maze. Red's haste is worth less because, hey, you need to play Boots anyway because of Maze. Blight Dragon Vultron is not a serious contender because it can't tutor for boots, and it can't answer Maze on the board (outside of unplayables like Sinkhole).
So being as Vultron is the fastest aggro in the format, this cuts the playable aggro decks down by about half. Then the format gravitates over to more combo and control, people start to whisper how bad of a card Maze is, they drop it from their decks, then Timmy picks up some non-token aggro, and at that point everyone realizes once again how good of a card Maze is and puts it back in. Overnight, Timmy's deck doesn't work. All that needs to happen is for one person at the table of 4 to draw their Maze.
There's a difference in Maze's performance value through different play groups, sure. But also, the mere existence, threat and possibility of it affects the format universally. Certain otherwise powerful decks are so thoroughly and so easily answered by it, and so if and when they do show up they don't last and aren't taken seriously.
The playable voltron generals are in green and white because
A) Green and white get the biggest creatures, so the G/W generals present a fast enough clock for a voltron strategy to work
B) G/W creatures get abilities that make them better in combat and at dealing damage (trample, exalted, and flying, to name a few), which is conducive to a voltron strategy, and, most importantly
C) G/W creatures often get abilities that make them resilient to answers (uncounterability, indestructibility, and hexproof, for example). And yes, hexproof and shroud get around Maze of Ith, which is one of the reasons they are good abilities, but there are a million other cards that they're good against as well.
White's equipment tutors certainly help many voltron strategies, but Maze of Ith is not the only reason why equipment tutors are good, and if Maze was banned, equipment tutors would still be essential to many voltron strategies. It's also worth noting that some voltron generals, such as Zur, are often fine without equipment, even though they have access to white.
And obviously having answers to nonland permanents is one of the reasons that green is good in EDH, but people don't run G/x voltron generals solely so they can have answers to Maze of Ith. That's just silly. Also, Strip Mine, Wasteland, and Dust Bowl are cards that every color has access to.
Last I checked, black had the best tutor suite of any color. There's a long list of cards in black that can tutor for Greaves/Boots. Also, Skittles Voltron is not limited by Maze of Ith, it's limited by the fact that it runs out of steam before it can kill an entire table. Mono-colored voltron decks are also even more inherently fragile than normal voltron decks, as the weakness of the voltron strategy is compounded by the weakness of only having access to a single color (although obviously there are advantages as well). Skittles Voltron suffers from this weakness. Maze of Ith is only one of many cards that hoses it.
People would have to adjust, so lets ban a card that does not violate any guideline, does not centalize games, and does not create unfun games?
Wow
Augustin, Rasputin, Bruna, Brago, Ojutai
If your deck plays at instant speed, play it;
if your deck plays at sorcery speed, I wouldn't.
It boils down to that for me.
Pro-tip: Don't slot Maze as a land !
Win-Win.
Enjoy !
Agreed. I don't understand how Maze of Ith impacts missing a land drop.
If you draw it in your opening hand but don't have enough mana producing land to support the start of the game, muligan.
if you have it in your opening hand but draw enough mana to not miss a drop.... just...don't play it. Wait a few turns
EDH:
Currently Piloting:
Dama, Sage of Stone | Karador, Ghost Chieftan | Sigarda, Host of Herons | Elbrus, the Binding Blade / Withengar Unbound | Grand Arbiter Augustin IV | Genju of the Realm | Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
Sure, Acidic Slime is in decks for a lot of reasons, and Maze is only one of those, sure. But a card's quality overall is measured by versatility, adaptability, reuseability, permanence, etc. Slime is played because it answers Maze, and because of these qualities. Sinkhole answers Maze but is not played because it would do little else. Black decks are therefore much worse than they otherwise would be because they need to answer maze, and can't.
Black has a good tutor package, sure, but consider that you have to tutor for boots every game. Enlightened Tutor = Vampiric for those purposes, and SFM has more recurrability and versatility than Demonic. And besides as you mentioned, defensive abilities generally are better in those colors. So since black has nothing to offer, and its tutor advantage is spent because of Maze and others, black aggro decks are considerably worse because of being forced to answer Maze.
Theft is theft. It will continue to be a threat to vultron. But there's a host of things that solve it that don't solve maze. Homeward Path and sacrifice, already mentioned, as well as pro-blue, one-shot hexproof effects, etc. So all in all, vultron still has to answer Maze, and it's still substantially worse off for having to do so.
That's it. They're substantially and intractably worse off because they need to answer Maze. Sure, mono-color will suffer from being mono-color. Skittles will suffer from being skittles. But Maze causes problems for Vultron, and those problems are substantial and intractable.
Whether this creates "unfun" games, that's a matter of opinion. A game might not be fun for Player A playing Skittles when Player B is on the ropes, casts Realms Uncharted letting Player C choose, then Player C chooses to give him Maze because he knows Player A will go onto him after he's finished with B. A game might not be fun for someone who has to spend the rest of the game trying to topdeck one of three cards in his deck that either gives shroud or answers a land, because he can't recast his general as he normally would when it's removed. That kind of game is pretty "centralized" on control and "unfun" for vultron, in my opinion. And adjust? Maze demands such specific answers that you can't. Sure, it's not going to break the format across all deck-types, and thus doesn't strike the "banworthy" moniker the way other cards do, but it does warp the format and keep otherwise good strategies out.
In a voltron deck you have to adjust your cards and strat to avoid removal and theaft like you said. Land destruction is a thing, it is ALWAYS useful.
See, the thing is I agree with basically everything you're saying except the [I]degree[/I] to which voltron decks are worse off because of Maze of Ith. They're definitely worse off, but I just don't think Maze is as significant as you think. Yes, Maze is harder to answer than theft/tuck effects, which consequently makes voltron worse. Yes, mono black has trouble answering it, which is one of mono black voltron's many weaknesses. Yes, a G/x voltron general without hexproof should have versatile answers that can hit Maze of Ith. All that is true. But Maze of Ith is not what is making voltron generals unplayable. I guarantee you that if you banned Maze of Ith today, Skithiryx would remain virtually just as good/bad as he is right now. He might get slightly better, but not much. Same goes for other voltron strategies.