We’re extremely happy with the current state of the format. While there may be a few cards that we see causing folks some heartburn, we don’t currently find any of them format-warping and worthy of getting bounced. Our view at the moment involves taking in the big picture to make sure that we’re capturing the spirit of EDH. We’re attracting more and more players to the format, with no near turn end in sight to that growth. The RC will continue to very carefully keep an eye on both how players approach the format as well as the cards they’re playing with.
yea, maybe we should just give up on Koko.....they dont want to listen to what we're saying.
It is a shame...I guess I will never get to experience my chance to pilot the Black Dragon Spirit. Oh well, I'd rather play Yosei anyway...(which is probably a testament to the fact that Yosei should be banned, not Kokusho >_>). But I guess my Kaalia of the Vast can still Yosei lock with a sac outlet and Sword of Light and Shadow. hehe
It is very rare for their whole yearly update to pull any sort of bannings. Their bans and unbans tend to come sort of out of nowhere suddenly due to someone having a really bad time from something.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
It is very rare for their whole yearly update to pull any sort of bannings. Their bans and unbans tend to come sort of out of nowhere suddenly due to someone having a really bad time from something.
Hence why wizards should control the banlist for a more objective list.
Kokusho might not be unbanned due to its shenanigans with recursion, but the very least they could do would be to unban him but ban him as a general. This way everyone's happy.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
EDH
BGJumpin' JaradsGB BB Furry Rat Lady: The Deck BB UU I Don't Ever Want To Explain How Knowledge Pool Works Ever Again UU RR This Is My Suika Cosplay Lightning Bolt Deck RR WW Mangara exiles both permanents and friends RWG Marath Sunforger RWG WUBRG Cromat and Friends WUBRG
--
Overall I still think they do a very good job with bannings.
Sure they don't ban for competitive environments but hey... if you have a competitive meta then perhaps you should just enact a custom ban list. I don't have enough of an issue with any of their bannings to modify so then clearly they are doing a good enough job for me. If you have enough of a hard time with a card then ban it.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
Kokusho might not be unbanned due to its shenanigans with recursion, but the very least they could do would be to unban him but ban him as a general. This way everyone's happy.
Recurring Nightmare is banned, and instant speed recursion exists only on two to three cards. If your meta fails to pack GY removal, shame on them.
However, the ability for him to be a general should be right out.
SurgingChaos has a great arguement for Kokusho however, I'll edit it in.
From SurgingChaos via the Speculation thread:
Quote from "SurgingChaos" »
Quote from "Hammer" »
For 1on1, sure, for multiplayer heck no.
Quote from "IcedNeonFlames" »
Seriously. That card becomes more and more ridiculous in multiplayer games. Honestly, if you even mention that Kokusho is in your deck in a multiplayer game I'm in, I'm going right for your throat.
Honestly, I HATE that card more than I hated Mental Misstep in Legacy.
Quote from "Everycolorbutredisbroken" »
Kokusho really doesn't need to be unbanned. the absurd lifeswings of that card dont' really need to exist in the format. You could make it only legal in 1V1, but then it's not like the card would be interesting anyway, so there's just no real point.
To all you guys who think Kokusho is still seemingly too good to unban, why are Consecrated Sphinx and Primeval Titan free to run amok? Unlike life drain, drawing massive amounts of cards and extreme land ramp generate card advantage that can quickly bury your opponents. Kokusho can drain a lot of life from a single trigger, but you don't gain any card advantage from it. Gaining a lot of life from a Kokusho trigger is nice, but in a format that has general damage, poison as a viable strategy, combos, and other ways to creature insurmountable board states that don't care about life totals, it's fairly overrated.
The fear of Kokusho mainly comes from the fact that Kokusho is a powerful first-order strategy. For those that don't know, a first-order strategy is something that is discovered very early on in the lifespan of a game and is considered quite powerful right out of the gate. However, once the depths of a game start to get discovered and plumbed, other things come out of the woodwork and challenge or usually diminish the effectiveness of the first-order strategy. So in an MMORPG for example, class X might be immediately considered overpowered out of the gate because it doesn't take much exploration of the game to figure out that class X is good -- a first-order strategy. But later on once people have sunk their teeth into the game, class Y eventually emerges later on as the foil to class X, and class X's overall power diminishes due to the rising presence of class Y. The same holds true for other genres, especially fighting games.
Kokusho is essentially just that. Back when it got banned on February 2008 there was much less graveyard hate being played, and more importantly other creatures like titans/Sphinx/Avenger of Zendikar/Terastodon/Jin/whatever didn't exist. Life drain is easily discernable as a go-to strategy when the format was first getting off the ground because even a new player could understand the power of a life drain effect that scales on a per-player basis. But as Commander kept growing and evolving, new strategies popped up that dwarf the kind of devastation that Kokusho could deal. I would much rather see a Kokusho on someone's table rather than a Primeval Titan or Consecrated Sphinx.
Kokusho really isn't as bad as you might think he is. Not after having dealt with the game-warping effects of Primeval Titan and Consecrated Sphinx.
Quote from "Kyrillos" »
Kokusho is the MOST dangerous as a Commander, that said:
I'm for and against this move. It's a dangerous line to walk, but if Erayo is allowed still as a regular card.....Kokuho should be. Its at the same level of degeneracy.
I disagree with this as well. I also believe it's safe to completely unban Kokusho as both a singleton and a commander. Kokusho is not at the same level of degeneracy as Erayo because Kokusho can't lock players out of the game before they get a chance to do anything relevant. Life drain only affects life totals. It doesn't affect your ability to draw cards, play lands, and cast spells.
Kokusho is also a tad slow to get going with. Compared to Erayo's potential speed to flip given the saturation of fast mana in Commander, Kokusho's ability to win can feel like molasses. In fact, there's a common theme with the three commanders that are banned in the format (Rofellos, Braids, Erayo): all three of them are cheap to cast, and those three commanders have a very high potential of running away with the game quickly.
Hence why wizards should control the banlist for a more objective list.
Wizards would likely ban all strong tutors, big card advantage cards, and strong mana ramp cards. They have certain biases in how they construct ban lists as well and those categories are the ones they go after the most.
On topic of the no changes Im glad it stays the same. Ya Kokusho would be nice but theres nothing wrong with the format in its current state so no point in rocking the boat
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
From MaRo
Every rarity gets good cards. That means that some mythic rares will be tournament quality as will some commons, some uncommons and some rares. My promise wasn't that mythic rares wouldn't get good cards but that we wouldn't limit the good cards to only being mythic rare.
Bear this in mind the next time a powerful mythic rare is spoiled
Thanks to chaostheory90 for finding this quiz for me
The problem with defining [EDH] by what is "fun" is that everyone seems to define fun as what they don't lose to. If you keep losing to easily answered cards, that means you should improve your deck. If you don't want to improve your deck, then you should come to peace with the idea that you are going to lose because you chose to not interact with better strategies.
I hate the idea of the all encompassing "spirit of EDH." It only takes a matter of a few minutes on these boards to realize that "spirit" means different things to different people.
The only objective list would be a computer tabulating tournament results. Then again it may ban "Island"
You say it like it's a bad thing
Also remember they don't ban on tournament results. They ban because something is "unfun". Hermit Druid would be banned otherwise. I guess they don't see it in their playgroup, so it must DO NO HARM.
Seriously, at this point it feels like a running joke that Kokusho is still banned. It's soon going to be four years and counting.
This right here.
The fact that he's still banned is a glaring inconsistency with Prime Time and Con Sphinx out to roam.
You know what, at this point I wouldn't mind if either of those 2 get banned if Koko is to come off. They are far more format warping and make creature-good-stuff decks extremely powerful.
Emmara is like the worst parts of Legends and Homelands got pregnant, aborted the fetus, tossed it in the trashcan, set it on fire and wrapped the corpse in a Dragon's Maze pack wrapper.
I'd love Wizards to print a 6/6 non-flying version of Kokusho and see if he gets banned. It would be a hilarious challenge to the RC. Do they automatically ban him without testing? That seems kneejerk because it IS a different card. But if they don't ban him, then people can see how useless he is, and therefore how bad Kokusho is by comparison. Kokusho is already worse than Titans.
The problem with defining [EDH] by what is "fun" is that everyone seems to define fun as what they don't lose to. If you keep losing to easily answered cards, that means you should improve your deck. If you don't want to improve your deck, then you should come to peace with the idea that you are going to lose because you chose to not interact with better strategies.
I think this is fair. There's nothing super broken at the moment, minus a few degenerate combos which there will ALWAYS be. At least this way it doesn't upset anyone.
lets face it, they won't unban kokusho now because of the large outcry for its unbanning. From my perspective, they are trying to "show the community" that their "philosophy" is right by not bending on this issue. its their attempt at saving face, rather then appearing to bend to the will of the larger community.
Raise your hand if you're still having an incredible amount of fun with this format. *raises hand*
My hand went up! Either way, I dont have a problem with koko not being unbanned. Yes I think there are WAY more degenerate stuff (read sphinx and primetime) but oh well. The format is still tons of fun and thus, I don't care too much.
Hence why wizards should control the banlist for a more objective list.
[joke]New Wizards EDH Ban List, copy paste legacy, modern, extended, two-headed giant, and standard's ban list. Include everything already on the ban list.[/joke]
Anyway, my only real complaints are Kokusho is still banned but Hermit Druid isn't. Personally I say follow the "suggested banlist" idea and house-rule unban Kokusho since the RC is clearly not going to anytime soon despite the fact that it's just a solid card, not a game warping one.
Through me the way to the suffering city; Through me the everlasting pain; Through me the way that runs among the Lost. Justice urged on my exalted Creator: Divine Power made me, The Supreme Wisdom and the Primal Love. Nothing was made before me but eternal things And I endure eternally. Abandon all hope - You Who Enter Here.
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
BANNED LIST
No changes
We’re extremely happy with the current state of the format. While there may be a few cards that we see causing folks some heartburn, we don’t currently find any of them format-warping and worthy of getting bounced. Our view at the moment involves taking in the big picture to make sure that we’re capturing the spirit of EDH. We’re attracting more and more players to the format, with no near turn end in sight to that growth. The RC will continue to very carefully keep an eye on both how players approach the format as well as the cards they’re playing with.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
Eh. It's fine, we've lived without him for a very very long time.
EDH:
UBGMimeoplasm (Reanimator Control)
WGBURProgenitus (Dream Halls//Good Stuff)
RNorin, the Wary (Metaddited Gaka List)
Thanks to Heroes of the Plane Studios!
540 Peasant cube- Gold EditionSomething SpicyIt is a shame...I guess I will never get to experience my chance to pilot the Black Dragon Spirit. Oh well, I'd rather play Yosei anyway...(which is probably a testament to the fact that Yosei should be banned, not Kokusho >_>). But I guess my Kaalia of the Vast can still Yosei lock with a sac outlet and Sword of Light and Shadow. hehe
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
It is very rare for their whole yearly update to pull any sort of bannings. Their bans and unbans tend to come sort of out of nowhere suddenly due to someone having a really bad time from something.
Signature by Inkfox Aesthetics by Xen
[Modern] Allies
Hence why wizards should control the banlist for a more objective list.
The only objective list would be a computer tabulating tournament results. Then again it may ban "Island"
BG Jumpin' JaradsGB
BB Furry Rat Lady: The Deck BB
UU I Don't Ever Want To Explain How Knowledge Pool Works Ever Again UU
RR This Is My Suika Cosplay Lightning Bolt Deck RR
WW Mangara exiles both permanents and friends
RWG Marath Sunforger RWG
WUBRG Cromat and Friends WUBRG
--
BG Savra, Rocking Attrition (retired) GB
BB">Shauku, Envoy of the End (retired) BB
BU Wrexial, the Tentacled H beast(retired)UB
BB Endrek Sahr, Master Commander (retired )BB
UU [PRIMER] Talrand's Terrible Tempo Terror Teatime (retired) UU
UBW Senator Trio - Three Heads Are Better Than One (retired) UBW
BB MONSTRUAL BLEEDING EREBOS SADISM (retired) BB
Sure they don't ban for competitive environments but hey... if you have a competitive meta then perhaps you should just enact a custom ban list. I don't have enough of an issue with any of their bannings to modify so then clearly they are doing a good enough job for me. If you have enough of a hard time with a card then ban it.
Signature by Inkfox Aesthetics by Xen
[Modern] Allies
Recurring Nightmare is banned, and instant speed recursion exists only on two to three cards. If your meta fails to pack GY removal, shame on them.
However, the ability for him to be a general should be right out.
SurgingChaos has a great arguement for Kokusho however, I'll edit it in.
From SurgingChaos via the Speculation thread:
EDH:
UBGMimeoplasm (Reanimator Control)
WGBURProgenitus (Dream Halls//Good Stuff)
RNorin, the Wary (Metaddited Gaka List)
Thanks to Heroes of the Plane Studios!
Wizards would likely ban all strong tutors, big card advantage cards, and strong mana ramp cards. They have certain biases in how they construct ban lists as well and those categories are the ones they go after the most.
On topic of the no changes Im glad it stays the same. Ya Kokusho would be nice but theres nothing wrong with the format in its current state so no point in rocking the boat
Bear this in mind the next time a powerful mythic rare is spoiled
Thanks to chaostheory90 for finding this quiz for me
Like smashing face? Like not worrying about pitiful tokens or life gain? Check out Stonebrow, Krosan Hero for all your face smashing needs
You say it like it's a bad thing
Also remember they don't ban on tournament results. They ban because something is "unfun". Hermit Druid would be banned otherwise. I guess they don't see it in their playgroup, so it must DO NO HARM.
This right here.
The fact that he's still banned is a glaring inconsistency with Prime Time and Con Sphinx out to roam.
You know what, at this point I wouldn't mind if either of those 2 get banned if Koko is to come off. They are far more format warping and make creature-good-stuff decks extremely powerful.
Because, other, more broken cards arent. Consistency in rules is good, or so I've heard
540 Peasant cube- Gold EditionSomething SpicyBBB Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed BBB Decklist
Glissa, the Traitor
BRB Olivia Voldaren BRB
RWU Zedruu the Greathearted UWR Decklist
BGW Ghave, Guru of Spores WGB
WUB Sharuum the Hegemon BUW
GUB The Mimeoplasm BUG
1WUBRG Karona, False God GRBUW1 Decklist
twitter.com/bccarlso
My hand went up! Either way, I dont have a problem with koko not being unbanned. Yes I think there are WAY more degenerate stuff (read sphinx and primetime) but oh well. The format is still tons of fun and thus, I don't care too much.
Wanted Card List: (PM me)
1 Avacyn, Angel of Hope
1 Ravages of War
1 Swords to Plowshares (Judge)
1 Land Tax (Judge)
U
1 Mana Vortex
B
1 Desolation Angel (Foil)
1 Guardian Beast
1 Contamination
R
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
G
1 Food Chain
WUBRG
1 Rohgahh of Kher Keep
X
1 Charcoal Diamond (Foil)
1 Fellwar Stone (Foil)
T
1 Temple Garden (Foil)
3 Mutavault
1 Kor Haven
Meh. Next time.
EDH:
RNorin the WaryR <-Link! (Primer - Mono Red Control)
GUEdric, Spymaster of TrestUG <- Link! (Mini-Primer - Dredge)
Duel Commander:
WUGeist of Saint TraftUW <- Link! (Aggro-Control)
BGSkullbriar, the Walking GraveGB <- Link! (Aggro)
BUGDamia, Sage of StoneGUB <- Link! (Extinction Control)
Church of the Wary
Gaka you wouldn't know what to do with yourself without Norin chaos!
[joke]New Wizards EDH Ban List, copy paste legacy, modern, extended, two-headed giant, and standard's ban list. Include everything already on the ban list.[/joke]
Anyway, my only real complaints are Kokusho is still banned but Hermit Druid isn't. Personally I say follow the "suggested banlist" idea and house-rule unban Kokusho since the RC is clearly not going to anytime soon despite the fact that it's just a solid card, not a game warping one.