Speaking purely in terms of opinion (although my playgroup seems to have roughly the same opinion on these point, generally speaking):
EDH is a casual format because having fun and not being a jerk should be valued over winning. Budget and broken cards are not important considerations as long as you don't violate one of those two principles.
'Fun' means crazy plays that would not be seen in any other format and have game-warping results, whether or not the cards were specifically designed for that purpose. It also means politics (helping your opponents is often a good strategy even if you aren't a group hug deck).
Buzz-killers include extra turns, LD (to a lesser extent), or interfering with something hilarious.
Not exhaustive, but covers the main points for each.
EDIT: Reminded by other posts. Locks are also mean. Comboes are not. If the whole rest of the table can't stop a combo, well, that's our problem.
In my experience, 3 out of 5 people will say Blue is not a fun color. The other two will be playing Blue
Uhm. I sense getting a quote for my sig coming here.
But on to the main point, my biggest turn off is locking player out of the game unless you are about to win. Playing Apocalypse just to play it is a really annoying play, and will not be looked well upon in my opinion. Also, mass bounce or permanent steal is very boring for the other players. One last note, combos suck and should not be pulled off easily or early.
Edit: Another big no-no is long turns. Man... I hate guys who take super long turns. Mine usually last around 30 seconds unless somebody is doing something ridiculously stupid and time consuming on my turn.
Did you ever play during Ravnica/Time Spiral Standard?
Did you ever own 3 sets of nonR Shocklands?
Did you ever play against that one random guy who managed to play a Magus of the Moon turn 2?
That's what unfun means. In EDH, there are all kinds of opportunities for these types of plays, and when one of those plays hits the table you can expect the groans from other players (or even people watching the game). Those cards shift the flow of the game from "let's have fun and try to win" to "KILL IT WITH FIRE".
Someone comboing off turn 3 or turn 6 is going to suck for the people on the receiving end. It may be fun for the guy doing it, but rest assured he's going to get a few death-glares each time it happens.
Cards like Magister Sphinx and Sorin Markov are what my playgroup considers db cards. Something that just is meant to be annoying.
Now, there are many cards that are much worse but as a "casual" format most of my playgroup are running pretty cheap decks. Nothing over $150 for the whole deck.
We just want to have fun and watch ridiculous turns keep rolling on by.
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EDH
GB Nath of the Gilt-Leaf BG GURWB Child of Alara BWRUG
In my experience, 3 out of 5 people will say Blue is not a fun color. The other two will be playing Blue
Agreed. All of my decks except 2 have blue in them. (2 EDH decks have blue, Rafiq and Azami, 1 normal Stasis deck, 1 Draw-Go, Esper, Bant [normal for both of those], working on Jacerator, and Cascade Denial; The only ones that don't have blue as a driving force are Zombies and Soldiers, and Zombies plays like a control deck).
Anyways, in answer to abraxas, "not fun" decks can contain blue, but in general, if they have an infinite combo in them that instantly wins you the game, that isn't fun.
In my opinion, the goal of a game of Magic is to beat my opponent(s) by any means necessary. If that means making the game not fun for my opponent, then that's what I do. If you aren't playing to win, I honestly do not understand why you are playing. I know someone will disagree, but that's my opinion.
Imo, lockdown and infinite combos (recurring Mindslaver) ruin the game. Also, watching someone take 10 mins on their turn. Pretty much anything that prevents players from actually playing.
Anything that makes a hard-lock isn't fun-- Iona, Magus of the Moon, etc. are extremely unfun. Sure, they're good, but they kinda just make the table scoop in the middle of an otherwise well-balanced game.
Also agreeing that blue is extremely unfun if played that way. I usually play 1v1 with a friend these days since my circle has died, and he insists on playing his Rafiq deck that specializes in counterspells (runs probably 20-25) and extra-turn effects (Runs every single one. Every single one. Seriously.) This results in 20-minute 'turns' after which you're denied playing anything with a wall of counterspells.
On the other side of the spectrum... his decks force me to run a vast array of aggro effects, discard, and stuff like Insist, which he insists is unfun. So I guess it's in the eye of the beholder.
I have a friend who doesn't understand teamwork, doesn't understand how to lay low in multiplayer, doesn't understand how to assess who's a threat properly in multiplayer, can't go three turns without backstabbing someone, plays all sorts of annoying cards (Herald of Leshrac, Innocent Blood), and takes ten-minute turns counting out the mana he gets with Cabal Coffers and Magus of the Coffers. Basically, he's never won a multiplayer EDH game, because he is the antithesis of fun. Though it is fun to unite against him and play "you don't get nice things".
FUN
in order 1.) DIVERSITY: lots of decks and options to choose from. there is a deck for almost any theme you can think of. unlike standard where there are maybe 3 total options of viable decks. 2.) ACHILLES' HEEL: Every deck has a weakness somewhere. Even Zur, the enchanter one of the most powerful EDH decks comes to a halt when confronted with cards like Song of Serenity or Harmonic Convergence. 3.) POLITICS: In large games or even not so large games politics become a huge aspect. you help your opponents for favors or team-up to take down whoever has the largest army. 4.) FUN PLAYS: You play cards and combos that would elsewhere never be played. Alot have some pretty ridiculous effects. storm herd have a welcoming place in many decks. Since the game has more life and last longer your expensive casting cost cards can be played. 5.) CHEAP: Alot of the cards needed are cheap. In comparison to Standard, Extended, or Legecy/Vintage you don't need to crazy expensive cards and can build a 100 deck of cards for super cheap. 6.) OPT, PLANECHASE: The constantly changing atmosphere. Gives people who can't normally play spells on their turn a chance to do at least something. waste excess mana.
NOT FUN
in order. 1.) LOCKS: cards that make it so you can't play anything.
not limited to: mindslaver Iona, Shield of Emeria Gaddock Teeg. the ultimate middle finger to edh. 2.) TOTAL RESETS: complete land destruction and Starting over is no fun. Apocalypse Decree of Annihilation Obliterate Shahrazad.
cards like wrath of god, Nevinyrral's Disk, all is dust or akroma's vengence are just fine. your able to rebuild. 3.)ANNOYING CARDS: Some cards it seems are just annoying.
All of the ELDRAZI like Emrakul, the Aeons Torn Lighthouse Chronologist Sorin Markov 4.) SLOW PLAY: players who take too long on their turn causing the the other players excessive waiting.
Taking multiple turns in a row.
takes like 10 minutes on their turn. 5.)INFINITES:
I'm not saying all infinites are bad. some are funny and some of the time infinite mana still won't win you the game. But an Instant end to the game sucks. 6.) "WIN" CARDS epic struggle test of endurance helix pinnicle
etc.
I really don't see what's so bad about alternate win cards like Epic Struggle and Helix Pinnacle. All of those cards require very specific and hard-to-meet prerequisites in order to actually win.
Remember when so many people thought Felidar Sovereign deserved an immediate ban before Zendikar was even fully spoiled? Look at where the win cat is now. I barely see anybody run him. If someone gets off an alternate win, they deserve to win the game for meeting the prerequisites necessary to do so, against the rest of the table in the process.
The only problematic instant-win card is Coaltion Victory, which is obviously banned due to its pathetically easy-to-meet prerequisites in addition to giving everyone hardly any time to react to it.
Here's a more interesting direction to take the discussion:
Has anybody noticed the upsurge in usage of words like "douchebaggery" and "unfun" in a casual environment since EDH became popular (and along with it, Sheldon Theory)?
It seems to me that ever since the popularization of EDH, a new trend has appeared within casual Magic where people apply morality and fun to a sort of universal measuring stick that defines whether something is inherently good or bad for the game. Because of this trend, however, it ends up doing nothing more than empowering people to force their own opinionated views on how the game should be played on others.
Really, people have been focusing too much on what other people should and should not do, and not enough on reconciling the differences in playstyles within their groups.
Largely mirrors the comments in this thread. Bottom line is winning should not be priority #1. Sometimes you make "bad" plays and leave out "awesome" cards from your list just to keep things fresh and entertaining.
With Rofellos, I have seen fun versions of the deck. Its not the general, its the things players choose to run with him, unfun things being Eldrazi, Slaver, Sundering Titan and such. I play a Teysa deck, and I always gun for the elf with spot removal whenever I see him.
It all depends really. I don't have a problem with anyone doing anything in a game really. The fun comes from PLAYING the game. In general the things that are generaly frowned upon are things that keep people from playing. This in general consists of infinate turn/play your deck loops that stops everyone else from playing, counterspell decks that counter every spell played, mass land destruction just to do it (I.e. when it won't win you the game within 1 or 2 turns), and most people get really annoyed when you take 10 min searching your library with a tutor, or the like. Blue is notorious for these infinate combos, but also has the best options for dealing with them(counterspells). So its a lot of give and take.
Personally I have the most fun when everyone is playing to win. Cutthroat games are a lot of fun as long as everyone plays to win. The politics are better, and the plays can get crazy. I personally think blood moon and the like are just fine. If 1 card can cripple you so easily then its your fault for not running basics. Mono red decks have no real way to deal with enchantments and the like directly, the only option is to pre-emptively prevent their casting. There is a counter to everything in mtg. So balance is important. I personally love to see decks that run 0 basics punished. That's the risk with playing that strategy. I love to hear people complain when I throw one down and it nullifies 3/4 of the land on the board. 45 dollar duals don't look so hot as basic mts......
It sounds like a lot of people here are fairly level-headed about this topic -- something I greatly appreciate. My feelings on the matter are pretty much the same, except that I don't think "locks" are inherently unfun either. If the game is close with Player A trying to combo off while Player B wrecks his hand and Player C is setting up a strong defense against both combo decks, then I could care less if one player ends the game with a Mindslaver lock. It was hard-fought and the game had to end somehow -- it might as well be a unique and cool effect like Mindslaver.
What ISN'T fun for me is watching my deck sputter and not do anything before I get locked out with Mindslaver or Forbid or whatever. In this case, the "DB card" isn't what kept me from playing the game: my deck just faltered and didn't function like it was supposed to. Oh well, at least I get to talk to my other friends at the table for 45 minutes.
Quote from gilrad »
Here's a more interesting direction to take the discussion:
Has anybody noticed the upsurge in usage of words like "douchebaggery" and "unfun" in a casual environment since EDH became popular (and along with it, Sheldon Theory)?
It seems to me that ever since the popularization of EDH, a new trend has appeared within casual Magic where people apply morality and fun to a sort of universal measuring stick that defines whether something is inherently good or bad for the game. Because of this trend, however, it ends up doing nothing more than empowering people to force their own opinionated views on how the game should be played on others.
Really, people have been focusing too much on what other people should and should not do, and not enough on reconciling the differences in playstyles within their groups.
I have certainly noticed this! I could go on a tirade about this forever, but in short, just try not to unnecessarily offend those sorts of people and hopefully they'll learn to enjoy a game of Magic in spite of the actual cards in play.
These generals can actually be very fun to play, especially in a multi-player format. I run Rofello's without any infinite combos. I know when I play multi player I have a big bulls eye, and I enjoy that. The deck is fun to play, and most people would rather me play this than my Wrexial deck. A friend of mine runs Zur, and he gets ganked, but he has fun. Yes it has some soft locks in it, but with other players, I have yet to see him do it.
Players shouldn't be ostracized or peer pressured into playing anything they don't want just because you can't beat a 2/1 Green creature with a single mana ability and no protection in an otherwise lackluster mono-color.
There's nothing casual about the format. The players dictate how competitive THEY want to be and should have no influence on how other people are allowed to play.
I don't understand how you could like Magic but not like all the strategies involved. I never understood the hate for mass land destruction, discard, counterspells, etc. They are part of the game, and so are all the "douchebag" cards and strategies. I've never met a deck, card, or strategy that I thought was douchey, only players.
There's lots of complaints about prison strategies locking you out of the game. Unless you have some way to recover, I'd recommend treating these situations as a loss and just concede. This saves everyone time, and you won't feel like you're "not playing." If a deck can stop you from taking your turn you've lost the match.
As with every game, you need to evaluate your choices (particularly deckbuilding and play decisions) to determine how you can beat these strategies, what you might have done wrong, etc. There's no deck in the format that is unbeatable, but the best decks and the best players will make you work for the win.
Perhaps the best definition I have heard of what is "fun" in EDH is playing with some goals as the rest of the group. If you are playing with a different goal, then there is bound to be some conflicts.
That being said, I typically don't whine to people if they are using a douchebag card or strategy, but I will instead use my theft based deck to abuse the card or strategy instead. For instance I would never put a Sundering Titan in my deck, but I will recur that sucker and clone him like no other if someone else spits him out there.
Sometimes the strategy works, like I have had at least one guy take a Sundering Titan out of his deck because of this. Other times not so much (I once got killed by other players because apparently I was the douchebag for locking a combo player under his own Yosei, go figure)
EDH Decks:
Halfdane Sek'Kuar
Please remember to autocard, just do [ card ] CARD NAME [ / card ] and for decks you can cover the whole thing in one deck tag like this: [ deck ] All of the cards in the deck [ / deck ]
I've posted this, and other posts like it, before:
100% agree! It can be a particularly large problem depending on your group's dynamics; having one person with a really strong personality can really cause the more passive types to not enjoy the game the way they want to play it.
I have a Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind deck that I hardly play anymore because of how little fun it is. I think competitive decks can be fine when there are seven or eight people and someone is sure to have answers, because it means that the non-competitive decks can stay in the shadows and build up some defense. However, I now have three other people that I play with, and reliable combos aren't fun for anyone.
EDH is fun because things can get a lot bigger than in vanilla. You have giant beasts trampling down the field, and more often than not end the game with more than 10 land. I've seen creatures with five auras swinging up against other creatures with piece-mail equipment attached. To me, the real fun comes from these crazy moments that you can't otherwise build to in regular magic.
I think the most common problem people have with blue is with counterspells. As a rule of thumb, my playgroup doesn't use any counterspells strictly worse than counterspell, and it's been working out pretty well.
Discuss what is expected of the EDH format when it is referred to as being "casual" in terms of your own opinion and your playgroup's.
Discuss what isn't "fun" for you and/or your playgroup.
There appears to be no consistency in this subject whatsoever. Everyone seems to be biased when discussing these terms.
EDH is a casual format because having fun and not being a jerk should be valued over winning. Budget and broken cards are not important considerations as long as you don't violate one of those two principles.
'Fun' means crazy plays that would not be seen in any other format and have game-warping results, whether or not the cards were specifically designed for that purpose. It also means politics (helping your opponents is often a good strategy even if you aren't a group hug deck).
Buzz-killers include extra turns, LD (to a lesser extent), or interfering with something hilarious.
Not exhaustive, but covers the main points for each.
EDIT: Reminded by other posts. Locks are also mean. Comboes are not. If the whole rest of the table can't stop a combo, well, that's our problem.
Uhm. I sense getting a quote for my sig coming here.
But on to the main point, my biggest turn off is locking player out of the game unless you are about to win. Playing Apocalypse just to play it is a really annoying play, and will not be looked well upon in my opinion. Also, mass bounce or permanent steal is very boring for the other players. One last note, combos suck and should not be pulled off easily or early.
Edit: Another big no-no is long turns. Man... I hate guys who take super long turns. Mine usually last around 30 seconds unless somebody is doing something ridiculously stupid and time consuming on my turn.
Under ConstructionEDH-W Wrath of the Angels
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G The Snakes Rising
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Did you ever own 3 sets of nonR Shocklands?
Did you ever play against that one random guy who managed to play a Magus of the Moon turn 2?
That's what unfun means. In EDH, there are all kinds of opportunities for these types of plays, and when one of those plays hits the table you can expect the groans from other players (or even people watching the game). Those cards shift the flow of the game from "let's have fun and try to win" to "KILL IT WITH FIRE".
Someone comboing off turn 3 or turn 6 is going to suck for the people on the receiving end. It may be fun for the guy doing it, but rest assured he's going to get a few death-glares each time it happens.
Driving Stick with Isochron Scepter.
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Now, there are many cards that are much worse but as a "casual" format most of my playgroup are running pretty cheap decks. Nothing over $150 for the whole deck.
We just want to have fun and watch ridiculous turns keep rolling on by.
GB Nath of the Gilt-Leaf BG
GURWB Child of Alara BWRUG
Standard
RBBlood BuildBR
Agreed. All of my decks except 2 have blue in them. (2 EDH decks have blue, Rafiq and Azami, 1 normal Stasis deck, 1 Draw-Go, Esper, Bant [normal for both of those], working on Jacerator, and Cascade Denial; The only ones that don't have blue as a driving force are Zombies and Soldiers, and Zombies plays like a control deck).
Anyways, in answer to abraxas, "not fun" decks can contain blue, but in general, if they have an infinite combo in them that instantly wins you the game, that isn't fun.
In my opinion, the goal of a game of Magic is to beat my opponent(s) by any means necessary. If that means making the game not fun for my opponent, then that's what I do. If you aren't playing to win, I honestly do not understand why you are playing. I know someone will disagree, but that's my opinion.
Also agreeing that blue is extremely unfun if played that way. I usually play 1v1 with a friend these days since my circle has died, and he insists on playing his Rafiq deck that specializes in counterspells (runs probably 20-25) and extra-turn effects (Runs every single one. Every single one. Seriously.) This results in 20-minute 'turns' after which you're denied playing anything with a wall of counterspells.
On the other side of the spectrum... his decks force me to run a vast array of aggro effects, discard, and stuff like Insist, which he insists is unfun. So I guess it's in the eye of the beholder.
Commander:
R Daretti, Scrap Savant
BR Olivia Voldaren
BRG Shattergang Brothers
GUR Riku of Two Reflections
WBG Karador, Ghost Chieftain
in order
1.) DIVERSITY: lots of decks and options to choose from. there is a deck for almost any theme you can think of. unlike standard where there are maybe 3 total options of viable decks.
2.) ACHILLES' HEEL: Every deck has a weakness somewhere. Even Zur, the enchanter one of the most powerful EDH decks comes to a halt when confronted with cards like Song of Serenity or Harmonic Convergence.
3.) POLITICS: In large games or even not so large games politics become a huge aspect. you help your opponents for favors or team-up to take down whoever has the largest army.
4.) FUN PLAYS: You play cards and combos that would elsewhere never be played. Alot have some pretty ridiculous effects. storm herd have a welcoming place in many decks. Since the game has more life and last longer your expensive casting cost cards can be played.
5.) CHEAP: Alot of the cards needed are cheap. In comparison to Standard, Extended, or Legecy/Vintage you don't need to crazy expensive cards and can build a 100 deck of cards for super cheap.
6.) OPT, PLANECHASE: The constantly changing atmosphere. Gives people who can't normally play spells on their turn a chance to do at least something. waste excess mana.
NOT FUN
in order.
1.) LOCKS: cards that make it so you can't play anything.
not limited to:
mindslaver
Iona, Shield of Emeria
Gaddock Teeg. the ultimate middle finger to edh.
2.) TOTAL RESETS: complete land destruction and Starting over is no fun. Apocalypse
Decree of Annihilation
Obliterate
Shahrazad.
cards like wrath of god, Nevinyrral's Disk, all is dust or akroma's vengence are just fine. your able to rebuild.
3.)ANNOYING CARDS: Some cards it seems are just annoying.
All of the ELDRAZI like Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
Lighthouse Chronologist
Sorin Markov
4.) SLOW PLAY: players who take too long on their turn causing the the other players excessive waiting.
Taking multiple turns in a row.
takes like 10 minutes on their turn.
5.)INFINITES:
I'm not saying all infinites are bad. some are funny and some of the time infinite mana still won't win you the game. But an Instant end to the game sucks.
6.) "WIN" CARDS
epic struggle
test of endurance
helix pinnicle
etc.
R Grenzo, Havoc Raiser
BG Varolz, the scar-striped
Remember when so many people thought Felidar Sovereign deserved an immediate ban before Zendikar was even fully spoiled? Look at where the win cat is now. I barely see anybody run him. If someone gets off an alternate win, they deserve to win the game for meeting the prerequisites necessary to do so, against the rest of the table in the process.
The only problematic instant-win card is Coaltion Victory, which is obviously banned due to its pathetically easy-to-meet prerequisites in addition to giving everyone hardly any time to react to it.
Has anybody noticed the upsurge in usage of words like "douchebaggery" and "unfun" in a casual environment since EDH became popular (and along with it, Sheldon Theory)?
It seems to me that ever since the popularization of EDH, a new trend has appeared within casual Magic where people apply morality and fun to a sort of universal measuring stick that defines whether something is inherently good or bad for the game. Because of this trend, however, it ends up doing nothing more than empowering people to force their own opinionated views on how the game should be played on others.
Really, people have been focusing too much on what other people should and should not do, and not enough on reconciling the differences in playstyles within their groups.
Largely mirrors the comments in this thread. Bottom line is winning should not be priority #1. Sometimes you make "bad" plays and leave out "awesome" cards from your list just to keep things fresh and entertaining.
BW Ghost Council of Orzhova WB
RB Lyzolda, the Blood Witch Chaos Stax BR -Retired
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GGG Mono Green Shenanigans GGG
RGBWU Dragonstorm Combo UWBGR
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GWU Bant Legendary Beatstick UWG
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Personally I have the most fun when everyone is playing to win. Cutthroat games are a lot of fun as long as everyone plays to win. The politics are better, and the plays can get crazy. I personally think blood moon and the like are just fine. If 1 card can cripple you so easily then its your fault for not running basics. Mono red decks have no real way to deal with enchantments and the like directly, the only option is to pre-emptively prevent their casting. There is a counter to everything in mtg. So balance is important. I personally love to see decks that run 0 basics punished. That's the risk with playing that strategy. I love to hear people complain when I throw one down and it nullifies 3/4 of the land on the board. 45 dollar duals don't look so hot as basic mts......
What ISN'T fun for me is watching my deck sputter and not do anything before I get locked out with Mindslaver or Forbid or whatever. In this case, the "DB card" isn't what kept me from playing the game: my deck just faltered and didn't function like it was supposed to. Oh well, at least I get to talk to my other friends at the table for 45 minutes.
I have certainly noticed this! I could go on a tirade about this forever, but in short, just try not to unnecessarily offend those sorts of people and hopefully they'll learn to enjoy a game of Magic in spite of the actual cards in play.
Draft my Mono-Blue Cube!
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These generals can actually be very fun to play, especially in a multi-player format. I run Rofello's without any infinite combos. I know when I play multi player I have a big bulls eye, and I enjoy that. The deck is fun to play, and most people would rather me play this than my Wrexial deck. A friend of mine runs Zur, and he gets ganked, but he has fun. Yes it has some soft locks in it, but with other players, I have yet to see him do it.
Ingenuity, playing with otherwise terrible cards, not being a db.
Unfun:
Mass LD, recurring Mindslaver (let's face it, a one-of Mindslaver can be hilarious...Academy Ruinsing it not so much), Jhoira of the Ghitu.
I don't understand how you could like Magic but not like all the strategies involved. I never understood the hate for mass land destruction, discard, counterspells, etc. They are part of the game, and so are all the "douchebag" cards and strategies. I've never met a deck, card, or strategy that I thought was douchey, only players.
There's lots of complaints about prison strategies locking you out of the game. Unless you have some way to recover, I'd recommend treating these situations as a loss and just concede. This saves everyone time, and you won't feel like you're "not playing." If a deck can stop you from taking your turn you've lost the match.
As with every game, you need to evaluate your choices (particularly deckbuilding and play decisions) to determine how you can beat these strategies, what you might have done wrong, etc. There's no deck in the format that is unbeatable, but the best decks and the best players will make you work for the win.
d.g
That being said, I typically don't whine to people if they are using a douchebag card or strategy, but I will instead use my theft based deck to abuse the card or strategy instead. For instance I would never put a Sundering Titan in my deck, but I will recur that sucker and clone him like no other if someone else spits him out there.
Sometimes the strategy works, like I have had at least one guy take a Sundering Titan out of his deck because of this. Other times not so much (I once got killed by other players because apparently I was the douchebag for locking a combo player under his own Yosei, go figure)
Halfdane
Sek'Kuar
Please remember to autocard, just do [ card ] CARD NAME [ / card ] and for decks you can cover the whole thing in one deck tag like this: [ deck ] All of the cards in the deck [ / deck ]
100% agree! It can be a particularly large problem depending on your group's dynamics; having one person with a really strong personality can really cause the more passive types to not enjoy the game the way they want to play it.
EDH is fun because things can get a lot bigger than in vanilla. You have giant beasts trampling down the field, and more often than not end the game with more than 10 land. I've seen creatures with five auras swinging up against other creatures with piece-mail equipment attached. To me, the real fun comes from these crazy moments that you can't otherwise build to in regular magic.
Glissa, the Traitor, Ulasht, the Hate Seed, The Mimeoplasm