You rely too much on your general. Most of all, once he gets ***ed (Every single deck out there runs some sort of wrath effect) you get him in library, from where you have a hard time winning. This will happen more frequently than you'd think (Even off-colour decks run Nevinyrral's Disk and oblivion stone as global removal). Or any kind of counterspell wrecks your day. Most of all, despite being in five colours, you have 0 interaction with the opponent and 0 card draws despite being potentially the best at both.
Another concern is some of your choices are out of place. You run Heartbeat in a deck with 0 basic lands.
I'd advice you pick another 5C general to ease your game play, add in better fixers like Mirari's Wake, get Conflux, Supply/Demand and similar tutors, some CA engines / removal, and still keep progenitus in your deck as a face smasher, just not as your general.
A note on general death: He has the CHOICE to let him hit the graveyard. If he wants to RFG his general, it won't even see the 'yard.
My suggestion is to include some overrun or other effects that give all creatures you control +x/+0, to turn it into a two turn clock. Then throw in [car]fog[/card] effects to help keep you alive on the retaliation.
A note on general death: He has the CHOICE to let him hit the graveyard. If he wants to RFG his general, it won't even see the 'yard.
My suggestion is to include some overrun or other effects that give all creatures you control +x/+0, to turn it into a two turn clock. Then throw in [car]fog[/card] effects to help keep you alive on the retaliation.
I think the wording on Progenitus prevents this, as it is a replacement effect so there is no choice.
"If Progenitus would be put into a graveyard from anywhere, reveal Progenitus, and then shuffle it into its owner's library."
I think the wording on Progenitus prevents this, as it is a replacement effect so there is no choice.
"If Progenitus would be put into a graveyard from anywhere, reveal Progenitus, and then shuffle it into its owner's library."
The EDH rule in question:
If a General would be put into a graveyard from anywhere, its owner may remove it from the game instead. (This is a replacement effect.. the creature never goes to the graveyard and will not trigger abilities on going to the graveyard)
...and the Comp. Rules rule in question:
419.9a If two or more replacement or prevention effects are attempting to modify the way an event affects an object or player, the affected object’s controller (or its owner if it has no controller) or the affected player chooses one to apply. Then the other effect applies if it is still appropriate. If one or more of the applicable replacement effects is a self-replacement effect (see rule 419.6d), that effect is applied before any other replacement effects. If two or more players have to make these choices at the same time, choices are made in APNAP order (see rule 103.4).
So, what will most likely be the situation is that you have both Progenitus and the General ability as replacement effects, and you (as the controller) will be able to choose which effect happens first.
In the end, you can choose to shuffle Progenitus, or to RFG it.
You rely too much on your general. Most of all, once he gets ***ed (Every single deck out there runs some sort of wrath effect) you get him in library, from where you have a hard time winning. This will happen more frequently than you'd think (Even off-colour decks run Nevinyrral's Disk and oblivion stone as global removal). Or any kind of counterspell wrecks your day. Most of all, despite being in five colours, you have 0 interaction with the opponent and 0 card draws despite being potentially the best at both.
Another concern is some of your choices are out of place. You run Heartbeat in a deck with 0 basic lands.
I'd advice you pick another 5C general to ease your game play, add in better fixers like Mirari's Wake, get Conflux, Supply/Demand and similar tutors, some CA engines / removal, and still keep progenitus in your deck as a face smasher, just not as your general.
If it get wrathed/countered, most of the time i can just replay him.
and what does heartbeat have anything to do with basics?
This deck is mostly for fun. (As is the format) so I don't care very much about winning.
Are there any other strategies that you think could work with progenitus?
If Progenitus was shuffled into your library instead of RFGed, then this would put quite a damper on the deck. However, it makes sense that you would be able to choose first whether to let it hit the yard, and it only gets shuffled AFTER.
What about some sort of Graft or w/e, does that work with progenitus? I don't see target on graft. If you graft a counter on him, you reduce the number of swings needed to win from 3 to 2, which is a big difference. Llanowar Reborn would be excellent, and then some of the better graft creatures like plaxcaster frogling, which is an efficient creature anyhoo. Ways of giving haste would be quite nice aswell. Lightning greaves, the best option, of course won't work, but a simply Fires of Yavimaya or Fervor or w/e all would speed up how long you need to kill your opponent.
If your using heartbeat, what about other double mana like Solar Flare? I hope i didnt miss it in the list. Also, Spectral Searchlight is one of the better accelerators out there, far better then any of the obelisks, even can ping for fun.
I really like the deck idea. I love simply accel into a fattie strategy. Progenitus is such a cool and fun card he's perfect for it.
Dream Halls works. In fact, that card is pretty nuts in EDH anyway, because you don't really care about how many death counters your general gets. WOW.
I once tried such a build for a Scion of the Urdragon and I have to tell you that:
- Unexplained ramping like a mad-man is suspicous. Sure they see Progenitus but probably don't know what else is in your deck. (they knew there are some dragons in my deck)
- Wrath effects run rampant in EDH. While you can replay Progenitus for 2 more - and your deck looks like it could provide stupid amounts of mana - the problem is that sometimes they also affect artifacts. A Disk would ruin your day and kick you out of the game. -> Run land searching cards over Obelisks and Signets and whatnot.
- The deck lacks defense. Whatever gets thrown at you, you have no way to stop it. This will not be fun for you. think of it: accel to 2 Domain, wait a turn and swing three times. That is if nothing disrupts what you are doing.
________
Build a good 5C deck that can either cheat big P into play or accel slowly to 2 domain and keep him on the board 'til you win.
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Each reality is but the dream of another, and each sleeper a god unknowing.
We define the boundaries of reality; they don't define us.
throw in at least 1 of each basic land... then you get tons of great mana search. How about 2 of each basic land? if you run so much accel, you'll have enough fixing.
If there are not enough spells that put nonbasics into play, play less nonbasics and risk colour screw.
If you want to run this 500$ manabase and only play nonbasics, go for it, but then the acceling through lands is harder.
Yes I know that I'm unspecific. I'm just commenting your decklist not saying what exactly you should play. I know constructive criticism might be more constructive, but in 5 colours there are just a boatload of possible spells and different strategies & Progenitus has next to no influence on how the deck should be built (apart from the rules specific stuff). It's really hard to build a good 5C deck and depends more than many other decks on personal preference etc. -> Being specific at this point of deckbuilding is rather useless.
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Each reality is but the dream of another, and each sleeper a god unknowing.
We define the boundaries of reality; they don't define us.
If there are not enough spells that put nonbasics into play, play less nonbasics and risk colour screw.
Or just be sure to also run enough colorless mana fixing to ensure the green mana for the colored mana acceleration. Some number of the following would be good...
yep, control would be the way to go, as you want to reach 10 mana. You will have no problems packing the deck with powerfull spells when you can afford a landbase like in your first deck.
Just pack enough mass removal, card advantage of any sort, threats that demand an answer, enough recursion and ways to stay alive, fill up with first class colour acceleration.
the Sphere link does not work and I can't find a crd that fixes with Sphere or Armillary in its name.
Good cards expect for the Twig and the Elves, they are just to weak imo. The lands and Simulacrum are best.
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Each reality is but the dream of another, and each sleeper a god unknowing.
We define the boundaries of reality; they don't define us.
Everything runs into problems: artifact mana runs into board sweeping and land ramp runs into Armageddon effects, at least in my play group. Best bet seems to be the Dramatic Entrance, Eureka route, with the appropriate wishes.
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1 composite golem
1 scuttlemutt
1 birds of paradise
1 joiner adept
1 knotvine mystic
1 keeper of progenitus
1 noble hierarch
Other
1 Garruk Wildspeaker
1 Talisman of dominance
1 Upwelling
1 Mirari's Wake
1 Mana flare
1 Spectral Searchlight
1 talisman of unity
1 talisman of progress
1 talisman of indulgence
1 talisman of impulse
1 Dream Halls
1 simic signet
1 selesnya signet
1 rakdos signet
1 orzhov signet
1 izzet signet
1 gruul signet
1 boros signet
1 azorius signet
1 mox diamond
1 coalition relic
1 kaleidostone
1 door to nothingness
1 dimir signet
1 golgari signet
1 darksteel ingot
1 fellwar stone
1 fist of suns
1 rites of flourishing
1 prismatic omen
1 heartbeat of spring
1 exploration
1 fertile ground
1 crop rotation
1 shard convergence
1 mwonvuli acid-moss
1 reap and sow
1 sylvan scrying
1 hunting wilds
1 farseek
1 land grant
1 mana reflection
1 propaganda
1 ghostly prison
1 Jungle Shrine
1 Crumbling necropolis
1 arcane sanctum
1 seaside citadel
1 savage lands
1 city of brass
1 wooded foothills
1 bloodstained mire
1 flooded strand
1 vivid grove
1 vivid crag
1 polluted delta
1 ancient ziggurat
1 rupture spire
1 gemstone mine
1 windswept heath
1 tendo ice bridge
1 tarnished citadel
1 grand coliseum
1 forbidden orchard
1 crystal quarry
1 exotic orchard
1 vivid meadow
1 vivid marsh
1 vivid creek
1 reflecting pool
1 breeding pool
1 tropical island
1 savannah
1 temple garden
1 volcanic island
1 steam vents
1 watery grave
1 underground sea
1 taiga
1 stomping ground
1 plateau
1 sacred foundry
1 hallowed fountain
1 tundra
1 godless shrine
1 scrubland
1 overgrown tomb
1 bayou
1 badlands
1 blood crypt
1 urborg, tomb of yawgmoth
1 pillar of paruns
Thoughts?
Changes: -5 Obelisks, +1 mana flare, mirari's wake, Dream Halls, upwelling, spectral Searchlight
EDIT: Here is the control list I came up with:
1 Savage Lands
1 Gemstone Mine
1 Flooded Strand
1 Grand Coliseum
1 Exotic Orchard
1 Vivid Crag
1 Vivid Marsh
1 Reflecting Pool
1 Vivid Meadow
1 City of Brass
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Vivid Creek
1 Windswept Heath
1 Vivid Grove
1 Rupture Spire
1 Mountain Valley
1 Rocky Tar Pit
1 Grasslands
1 Bad River
1 Flood Plain
1 Crumbling Necropolis
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Polluted Delta
1 Arcane Sanctum
1 Seaside Citadel
1 Jungle Shrine
1 Tropical Island
1 Breeding Pool
1 Savannah
1 Temple Garden
1 Volcanic Island
1 Steam Vents
1 Underground Sea
1 Watery Grave
1 Stomping Ground
1 Taiga
1 Plateau
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Tundra
1 Scrubland
1 Godless Shrine
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Bayou
1 Badlands
1 Blood Crypt
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Progenitus
1 Eternal Witness
1 Etched Oracle
1 Mulldrifter
1 Joiner Adept
1 Weathered Wayfarer
1 Kitchen Finks
Planeswalkers
1 Ajani Vengeant
1 Chandra Nalaar
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Jace Beleren
1 Liliana Vess
1 Sarkhan Vol
1 Garruk Wildspeaker
1 Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker
Spells
1 Mind's Eye
1 Nevinyrral's Disk
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Darksteel Ingot
1 Spectral Searchlight
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Oblivion Stone
1 Coalition Relic
1 Clearwater Goblet
1 Collective Restraint
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Propaganda
1 Prismatic Omen
1 Rhystic Study
1 Ghostly Prison
1 Aura of Silence
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Gifts Ungiven
1 Intuition
1 Path to Exile
1 Counterspell
1 Brainstorm
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Force of Will
1 Krosan Grip
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Regrowth
1 Cruel Ultimatum
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Hallowed Burial
1 Wrath of God
1 Ponder
1 Beseech the Queen
1 Austere Command
1 Akroma's Vengence
1 Damnation
1 Tidings
1 Final Judgment
Another concern is some of your choices are out of place. You run Heartbeat in a deck with 0 basic lands.
I'd advice you pick another 5C general to ease your game play, add in better fixers like Mirari's Wake, get Conflux, Supply/Demand and similar tutors, some CA engines / removal, and still keep progenitus in your deck as a face smasher, just not as your general.
www.twitter.com/DKSakar
My suggestion is to include some overrun or other effects that give all creatures you control +x/+0, to turn it into a two turn clock. Then throw in [car]fog[/card] effects to help keep you alive on the retaliation.
I think the wording on Progenitus prevents this, as it is a replacement effect so there is no choice.
"If Progenitus would be put into a graveyard from anywhere, reveal Progenitus, and then shuffle it into its owner's library."
The EDH rule in question:
...and the Comp. Rules rule in question:
419.9a If two or more replacement or prevention effects are attempting to modify the way an event affects an object or player, the affected object’s controller (or its owner if it has no controller) or the affected player chooses one to apply. Then the other effect applies if it is still appropriate. If one or more of the applicable replacement effects is a self-replacement effect (see rule 419.6d), that effect is applied before any other replacement effects. If two or more players have to make these choices at the same time, choices are made in APNAP order (see rule 103.4).
So, what will most likely be the situation is that you have both Progenitus and the General ability as replacement effects, and you (as the controller) will be able to choose which effect happens first.
In the end, you can choose to shuffle Progenitus, or to RFG it.
静
If it get wrathed/countered, most of the time i can just replay him.
and what does heartbeat have anything to do with basics?
This deck is mostly for fun. (As is the format) so I don't care very much about winning.
Are there any other strategies that you think could work with progenitus?
What about some sort of Graft or w/e, does that work with progenitus? I don't see target on graft. If you graft a counter on him, you reduce the number of swings needed to win from 3 to 2, which is a big difference. Llanowar Reborn would be excellent, and then some of the better graft creatures like plaxcaster frogling, which is an efficient creature anyhoo. Ways of giving haste would be quite nice aswell. Lightning greaves, the best option, of course won't work, but a simply Fires of Yavimaya or Fervor or w/e all would speed up how long you need to kill your opponent.
If your using heartbeat, what about other double mana like Solar Flare? I hope i didnt miss it in the list. Also, Spectral Searchlight is one of the better accelerators out there, far better then any of the obelisks, even can ping for fun.
I really like the deck idea. I love simply accel into a fattie strategy. Progenitus is such a cool and fun card he's perfect for it.
Thanks to Spiderboy4 of High~Light Studios!
Or better yet, Wish him into your hand then use Dramatic Entrance
What do you think of Upwelling and Dream halls?
Does Dream halls even work for my general?
Thanks to Spiderboy4 of High~Light Studios!
Then you can allways run tutors and whatnot to get them or the cards to cheat him into play into your hand.
Should I play anti-counter cards like Teferi, city of solitude, and vexing shusher?
City of Solitude seems best, what bout Dosan?
Thanks to Spiderboy4 of High~Light Studios!
- Unexplained ramping like a mad-man is suspicous. Sure they see Progenitus but probably don't know what else is in your deck. (they knew there are some dragons in my deck)
- Wrath effects run rampant in EDH. While you can replay Progenitus for 2 more - and your deck looks like it could provide stupid amounts of mana - the problem is that sometimes they also affect artifacts. A Disk would ruin your day and kick you out of the game. -> Run land searching cards over Obelisks and Signets and whatnot.
- The deck lacks defense. Whatever gets thrown at you, you have no way to stop it. This will not be fun for you. think of it: accel to 2 Domain, wait a turn and swing three times. That is if nothing disrupts what you are doing.
________
Build a good 5C deck that can either cheat big P into play or accel slowly to 2 domain and keep him on the board 'til you win.
If you suggest building a "good" 5C deck, what do you advise. You aren't very specific at all. What specific cards should I add?
There are several, especially if you're referring to dual lands too:
throw in at least 1 of each basic land... then you get tons of great mana search. How about 2 of each basic land? if you run so much accel, you'll have enough fixing.
Thanks to Spiderboy4 of High~Light Studios!
If you want to run this 500$ manabase and only play nonbasics, go for it, but then the acceling through lands is harder.
Yes I know that I'm unspecific. I'm just commenting your decklist not saying what exactly you should play. I know constructive criticism might be more constructive, but in 5 colours there are just a boatload of possible spells and different strategies & Progenitus has next to no influence on how the deck should be built (apart from the rules specific stuff). It's really hard to build a good 5C deck and depends more than many other decks on personal preference etc. -> Being specific at this point of deckbuilding is rather useless.
It would seem that aggro would have a hard time playing Progenitus.
I also might cut down the manabase if I went control
Thoughts?
Or just be sure to also run enough colorless mana fixing to ensure the green mana for the colored mana acceleration. Some number of the following would be good...
Armillary Sphere, Solemn Simulacrum, Wanderer's Twig, Wayfarer's Bauble, Terminal Moraine, Terramorphic Expanse, Thawing Glaciers, Elvish Aberration, Wirewood Guardian, Darksteel Ingot.
Just pack enough mass removal, card advantage of any sort, threats that demand an answer, enough recursion and ways to stay alive, fill up with first class colour acceleration.
the Sphere link does not work and I can't find a crd that fixes with Sphere or Armillary in its name.
Good cards expect for the Twig and the Elves, they are just to weak imo. The lands and Simulacrum are best.