How have the Knights worked for you? Were they any better than just NOing Proggy into play?
It's been pretty good from my experience, I love having an alternative beat down creature that can swing for infinity every turn when able to. It also has some utility with fetchlands and dryad arbor which is pretty nice with ponder and brainstorm. I just love having as many shuffling effects as possible to maximize the efficiency of both brainstorm and ponder.
It's been pretty good from my experience, I love having an alternative beat down creature that can swing for infinity every turn when able to. It also has some utility with fetchlands and dryad arbor which is pretty nice with ponder and brainstorm. I just love having as many shuffling effects as possible to maximize the efficiency of both brainstorm and ponder.
Would you maybe cut it down to a 1-of as a tutor? That's what I'm thinking of doing, but I'm not sure if it's going to be worth it over my current list.
Would you maybe cut it down to a 1-of as a tutor? That's what I'm thinking of doing, but I'm not sure if it's going to be worth it over my current list.
Yeah, probably, I too actually thought about it but wanted to try it out as a 2-of first to see how it works in the deck for my testing. Green zenith is such a powerful card that grabbing anything can win you games so going to just 1 Knight seems fine.
Your list seems really good. I love the interaction between scryb ranger and fauna shaman or scryb ranger with KOTR.
I haven't tested Llawan in bant sideboards but only in merfolk and landstill sideboards. I'd rather run more path to exile but that's just me. However, it seems your llawans has a ton of merit especially with pithing needles in the sideboard for the merfolk match.
Your list seems really good. I love the interaction between scryb ranger and fauna shaman or scryb ranger with KOTR.
I haven't tested Llawan in bant sideboards but only in merfolk and landstill sideboards. I'd rather run more path to exile but that's just me. However, it seems your llawans has a ton of merit especially with pithing needles in the sideboard for the merfolk match.
Ya Scryb works wonders with both of them, which is why I wanted to add KotR to AJ's list. I also love how it saves Arbor from Wasteland
I could run an extra PtE, as Meddling Mage hasn't really done a lot for me.
Ya Scryb works wonders with both of them, which is why I wanted to add KotR to AJ's list. I also love how it saves Arbor from Wasteland
I could run an extra PtE, as Meddling Mage hasn't really done a lot for me.
Well, actually I would run another clique instead of a path to exile for your build since you seem to want to resolve Natural order more then my build. Not to mention, I also play 4 dazes so it seems that a extra clique would be more beneficial to you then another path against other blue decks, in my opinion.
I also like to force through more damage with tarmogoyf and KOTR so I like to run extra paths. While you can just resolve a progenitus and just force through damage anyway.
Well, actually I would run another clique instead of a path to exile for your build since you seem to want to resolve Natural order more then my build. Not to mention, I also play 4 dazes so it seems that a extra clique would be more beneficial to you then another path against other blue decks, in my opinion.
I also like to force through more damage with tarmogoyf and KOTR so I like to run extra paths. While you can just resolve a progenitus and just force through damage anyway.
I like the list a lot, Dyne. I was also personally thinking of going down to 20 lands for the 4th Goyf since I think the deck can handle it, though my list only has 3 Trops (availability) and an extra fetch, which might be nice for Brainstorming.
I'm not sure that I support going down to 3 GSZs though. How has this worked for you in testing? GSZ is just so versatile in that it can grab you a land, Hierarch, Goyf, toolbox critter... I guess even proggy if you magically hit 11 mana, lol. Knight, meanwhile, seems like a solid beater/blocker but I'm not sure what he really does for the deck. If he's just a beater, he probably can replace a Goyf instead of a GSZ. But there's no matchup where he truly, truly shines IMO.
As for the sideboard, something I never understood about AJ's list (and conversely yours and even the one I'm messing with) are the 1-of creatures that aren't green. I think Mage, Clique and Sower should probably just become a 3-of on one of them... the other creature that works well as a 1-of in the SB is Cold-Eyed Selkie. He's great against anything with Islands, and with Exalted triggers can draw you a lot of cards. He also might be good against Merfolk but you've already gotta bring in 3 Llawans and Needles so I'm not sure how well that works.
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Legacy Decks I'm Currently Running:
U Merfolk U UGW NO Bant UGW UGWRB Dredge! UGWRB
Other Legacy Decks I Own:
RGW Zoo! RGW BGW Junk BGW RGWB Aggro Loam RGWB BW Deadguy BW W Death & Taxes (almost!) W GW Green & Taxes GW BGW Junk & Taxes BGW
There is a bant list that I find to be interesting that got first place in a SCG Invitational in baltimore. I am kinda surprised it doesn't run noble hierarchs to power out an early elspeth/warmonk/Knight of reliquary. Not to mention, I am not sure how good green zenith really is without hieararch but I suppose it works.
I'm not liking the vulnerability of the GSZ builds to Perish or Hibernate. I like GSZ but I'm not running it yet. I did a total 180 and put back together Pro Excalibur with more varying creatures. I also don't feel that KoTR is easy to run in the build. This is my Updated version:
So I got blown out against Deedstill the other night a few times while testing.
Any suggestions as to how to shore up that matchup?
Well, I used to run this tempo-oriented list. It was both good and bad, in that i pretty much had 50/50 against everything except merfolk. I was running it back when Survivine was rampant. I had enough counters to beat combo mainboard, and enough control and overpowering creatures to beat control and aggro mainboard as well. The problem I found with this build, is that I had sometimes trouble drawing into counters when needed, or I had too many useless counters against some matchups. But most of the time it worked great. I'm not saying to change your current build completely, but Stifle has proven itself useful/powerful on many occasions.
Well, I used to run this tempo-oriented list. It was both good and bad, in that i pretty much had 50/50 against everything except merfolk. I was running it back when Survivine was rampant. I had enough counters to beat combo mainboard, and enough control and overpowering creatures to beat control and aggro mainboard as well. The problem I found with this build, is that I had sometimes trouble drawing into counters when needed, or I had too many useless counters against some matchups. But most of the time it worked great. I'm not saying to change your current build completely, but Stifle has proven itself useful/powerful on many occasions.
I would lead out with Noble Hierarch, then he would either Innocent Blood and leave up Spell Snare, or Ghastly Demise EOT then drop Standstill, and since I was not playing Daze I never had anything against those lines of play.
Maybe he just got consistently good draws, I dunno.
Clique seems pretty good against Landstill, I mean you can flash it in and take their best card. Perhaps you could also run more hard counters in the board such as counterspell or maybe negate. Or maybe also play elspeth and jace the mindsculptor in the maindeck.
I mean, I agree with Aaron that both stifle and wasteland can be really good against Ugb Landstill but it isn't always enough to stop them. Back to basics could be also something else you could consider if you also find a way to fit another plains in the main and you also have noble hierarchs to get mana from too. There are more then one way to combat that matchup for Bant.
Also, if your on the play then dropping Hierarch seems pretty good but if your on the draw then leaving mana open for spell pierce seems better. From experience, Hierarch just seems much stronger on the play then on the draw unless of course Hierarch is the only thing you can play and given the fact that you might also have powerful two drops in your hand as well. *Shrugs* Although, it probably won't matter as nearly as much if you also play daze like you said Dyne.
Oh, I didn't notice you weren't running Daze :D... Honestly, I would go Daze over Pierce Main deck. Daze is your other set of "free" counters. My much preferred play against any deck, Especially if you are on the play, is Trop > Noble; Daze in hand. I also find Daze better so that you can tap out with GSZ and protect it easier. Spell Pierce/FoW is better on the draw, of course, your Turn 0 FoW is the best anyways, especialy against combo/lackeys, etc.
@Dyne: Ah I see. What did you side in then? Pithing needle?
As for the bad draws/keeps that happens to everyone but at least your playing and trying to take a win with what you have.
Yeah, I am going to have to agree with you on having pierces over daze though mostly because you don't play with wastelands. After testing with my build, I haven't really liked daze a whole lot unless I had a playset of wastes in the main too. To be honest, I would probably run spell snare or even counterspell first because with counterspell you have a noble hierarch that can hold up your second blue source and spell snare is relevant in the landstill matchup. Not to mention, returning a land from play to your hand with daze can prevent you from casting Natural order on the turn you want to cast it.
MTGO meta is extremely random. You see things like ANT, Team America, Bant of various kinds, Zoo, Merfolk, Lands, Goblins....take your Tier 1 and 2 decks and toss them in a blender.
MTGO meta is extremely random. You see things like ANT, Team America, Bant of various kinds, Zoo, Merfolk, Lands, Goblins....take your Tier 1 and 2 decks and toss them in a blender.
Personally I wouldn't play CB varients right now, but that's just me.
Ponder would be a good addition. Alas, again, if your going CB, I would run the Jace sadly.
I personally think people underrate countertop right now because of how skill intensive the deck can be. But in a random meta I would think countertop could shore up alot of matchups since it provides that "soft lock" but that's just based on my experience.
Merfolk 2-0
Saito Fish 2-1
Goblins 2-0
Affinity 2-1
Bant mirror 2-1
Junk 2-1
Here is the decklist and I really enjoy playing with it:
4 Tropical Island
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Windswept Heath
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Dryad Arbor
2 Flooded Strand
2 Tundra
1 Savannah
Creatures
4 Noble Hierarch
1 Rhox War Monk
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Progenitus
2 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Qasali Pridemage
3 Natural Order
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Daze
2 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Pierce
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
2 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Path to Exile
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Krosan Grip
1 Empyrial Archangel
How have the Knights worked for you? Were they any better than just NOing Proggy into play?
Thanks to Heroes of the Plane Studios for the amazing sig.
NO RUG: Primer
Tempo Thresh: Primer
It's been pretty good from my experience, I love having an alternative beat down creature that can swing for infinity every turn when able to. It also has some utility with fetchlands and dryad arbor which is pretty nice with ponder and brainstorm. I just love having as many shuffling effects as possible to maximize the efficiency of both brainstorm and ponder.
Would you maybe cut it down to a 1-of as a tutor? That's what I'm thinking of doing, but I'm not sure if it's going to be worth it over my current list.
Thanks to Heroes of the Plane Studios for the amazing sig.
NO RUG: Primer
Tempo Thresh: Primer
Yeah, probably, I too actually thought about it but wanted to try it out as a 2-of first to see how it works in the deck for my testing. Green zenith is such a powerful card that grabbing anything can win you games so going to just 1 Knight seems fine.
1 Forest
1 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Tropical Island
4 Windswept Heath
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Savannah
1 Tundra
2 Dryad Arbor
Creatures 14
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Rhox War Monk
1 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Fauna Shaman
1 Progenitus
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Peirce
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Natural Order
3 Pithing Needle
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Sower of Temptation
2 Krosan Grip
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Trygon Predator
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Path to Exile
3 Llawan, Cephalid Empress
1 Meddling Mage
Suggestions? Criticism?
Thanks to Heroes of the Plane Studios for the amazing sig.
NO RUG: Primer
Tempo Thresh: Primer
I haven't tested Llawan in bant sideboards but only in merfolk and landstill sideboards. I'd rather run more path to exile but that's just me. However, it seems your llawans has a ton of merit especially with pithing needles in the sideboard for the merfolk match.
Ya Scryb works wonders with both of them, which is why I wanted to add KotR to AJ's list. I also love how it saves Arbor from Wasteland
I could run an extra PtE, as Meddling Mage hasn't really done a lot for me.
Thanks to Heroes of the Plane Studios for the amazing sig.
NO RUG: Primer
Tempo Thresh: Primer
Well, actually I would run another clique instead of a path to exile for your build since you seem to want to resolve Natural order more then my build. Not to mention, I also play 4 dazes so it seems that a extra clique would be more beneficial to you then another path against other blue decks, in my opinion.
I also like to force through more damage with tarmogoyf and KOTR so I like to run extra paths. While you can just resolve a progenitus and just force through damage anyway.
Haha true enough.
I'll try the 2nd Clique over the Mage, thanks
Thanks to Heroes of the Plane Studios for the amazing sig.
NO RUG: Primer
Tempo Thresh: Primer
I'm not sure that I support going down to 3 GSZs though. How has this worked for you in testing? GSZ is just so versatile in that it can grab you a land, Hierarch, Goyf, toolbox critter... I guess even proggy if you magically hit 11 mana, lol. Knight, meanwhile, seems like a solid beater/blocker but I'm not sure what he really does for the deck. If he's just a beater, he probably can replace a Goyf instead of a GSZ. But there's no matchup where he truly, truly shines IMO.
As for the sideboard, something I never understood about AJ's list (and conversely yours and even the one I'm messing with) are the 1-of creatures that aren't green. I think Mage, Clique and Sower should probably just become a 3-of on one of them... the other creature that works well as a 1-of in the SB is Cold-Eyed Selkie. He's great against anything with Islands, and with Exalted triggers can draw you a lot of cards. He also might be good against Merfolk but you've already gotta bring in 3 Llawans and Needles so I'm not sure how well that works.
U G W NO Bant U G W
U G W R B Dredge! U G W R B
B G W Junk B G W
R G W B Aggro Loam R G W B
B W Deadguy B W
W Death & Taxes (almost!) W
G W Green & Taxes G W
B G W Junk & Taxes B G W
Momir Vig
Brion Stoutarm
Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief
Arcum Daggson
For reference here is the list: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=37405
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Coralhelm Commander
2 Rhox War Monk
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Vendilion Clique
4 Noble Hierarch
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Trygon Predator
1 Progenitus
Artifacts
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
3 Natural Order
Instants
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
Land
3 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
1 Savannah
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Windswept Heath
3 Flodded Strand
2 Island
1 Forest
1 Plains
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Krosan Grip
1 Empyrial Archangel
2 Volcanic Island
3 Firespout
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
3 Mindbreak Trap
I'm also Toying with Vial + standstill: Bantstill
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Noble Hierarch
2 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Rhox War Monk
3 Qasali PrideMage
2 Vendilion Clique
3 Coralhelm Commander
Enchantements
4 Standstill
Artifacts
4 Æther Vial
Instants
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Wasteland
1 Karakas
3 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Flooded Strand
1 Island
1 Forest
3 Meddling Mage
2 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
3 Gaddock Teeg
3 Stifle
2 Path to Exile
Thank you mchief111, great sig
Lvl 37 Planeswalker
Current:
Legacy:
:symu::symb::symr::symw::symg: TES | Spiral Tide | MUD | :symu::symb::symg: Lands | Burn | :symr::symbg: Goblins | Elf Combo
Vintage:
:symb::symu: Titan Dredge | :symb::symu::symw: Bomberman
Modern:
:symu::symr: Kiki-Twin | :symr::symg: Tron
Standard:
Wip
EDH:
:symb::symu::symw: Zur
Any suggestions as to how to shore up that matchup?
Thanks to Heroes of the Plane Studios for the amazing sig.
NO RUG: Primer
Tempo Thresh: Primer
Well, I used to run this tempo-oriented list. It was both good and bad, in that i pretty much had 50/50 against everything except merfolk. I was running it back when Survivine was rampant. I had enough counters to beat combo mainboard, and enough control and overpowering creatures to beat control and aggro mainboard as well. The problem I found with this build, is that I had sometimes trouble drawing into counters when needed, or I had too many useless counters against some matchups. But most of the time it worked great. I'm not saying to change your current build completely, but Stifle has proven itself useful/powerful on many occasions.
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Qasali Pridemage
3 Rhox War Monk
Instants
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
3 Stifle
3 Spell Snare
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Ponder
Land
4 Wasteland
3 Tundra
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Flooded Strand
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Plains
3 Firespout
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Volcanic Island
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Krosan Grip
3 Hydroblast
3 Pithing Needle
What specifically did you have issues with?
Thank you mchief111, great sig
Lvl 37 Planeswalker
Current:
Legacy:
:symu::symb::symr::symw::symg: TES | Spiral Tide | MUD | :symu::symb::symg: Lands | Burn | :symr::symbg: Goblins | Elf Combo
Vintage:
:symb::symu: Titan Dredge | :symb::symu::symw: Bomberman
Modern:
:symu::symr: Kiki-Twin | :symr::symg: Tron
Standard:
Wip
EDH:
:symb::symu::symw: Zur
Standstill mainly.
I would lead out with Noble Hierarch, then he would either Innocent Blood and leave up Spell Snare, or Ghastly Demise EOT then drop Standstill, and since I was not playing Daze I never had anything against those lines of play.
Maybe he just got consistently good draws, I dunno.
Thanks to Heroes of the Plane Studios for the amazing sig.
NO RUG: Primer
Tempo Thresh: Primer
I mean, I agree with Aaron that both stifle and wasteland can be really good against Ugb Landstill but it isn't always enough to stop them. Back to basics could be also something else you could consider if you also find a way to fit another plains in the main and you also have noble hierarchs to get mana from too. There are more then one way to combat that matchup for Bant.
Also, if your on the play then dropping Hierarch seems pretty good but if your on the draw then leaving mana open for spell pierce seems better. From experience, Hierarch just seems much stronger on the play then on the draw unless of course Hierarch is the only thing you can play and given the fact that you might also have powerful two drops in your hand as well. *Shrugs* Although, it probably won't matter as nearly as much if you also play daze like you said Dyne.
Oh, I didn't notice you weren't running Daze :D... Honestly, I would go Daze over Pierce Main deck. Daze is your other set of "free" counters. My much preferred play against any deck, Especially if you are on the play, is Trop > Noble; Daze in hand. I also find Daze better so that you can tap out with GSZ and protect it easier. Spell Pierce/FoW is better on the draw, of course, your Turn 0 FoW is the best anyways, especialy against combo/lackeys, etc.
@Kevin
Good Points.
Thank you mchief111, great sig
Lvl 37 Planeswalker
Current:
Legacy:
:symu::symb::symr::symw::symg: TES | Spiral Tide | MUD | :symu::symb::symg: Lands | Burn | :symr::symbg: Goblins | Elf Combo
Vintage:
:symb::symu: Titan Dredge | :symb::symu::symw: Bomberman
Modern:
:symu::symr: Kiki-Twin | :symr::symg: Tron
Standard:
Wip
EDH:
:symb::symu::symw: Zur
However Clique was something I did not side in, so I will be trying that now.
Edit - @aaron
I prefer Pierce to Daze for the combo matchups. It just becomes apparent against the mid-range/grinding decks that Daze would be better against them.
Thanks to Heroes of the Plane Studios for the amazing sig.
NO RUG: Primer
Tempo Thresh: Primer
As for the bad draws/keeps that happens to everyone but at least your playing and trying to take a win with what you have.
Yeah, I am going to have to agree with you on having pierces over daze though mostly because you don't play with wastelands. After testing with my build, I haven't really liked daze a whole lot unless I had a playset of wastes in the main too. To be honest, I would probably run spell snare or even counterspell first because with counterspell you have a noble hierarch that can hold up your second blue source and spell snare is relevant in the landstill matchup. Not to mention, returning a land from play to your hand with daze can prevent you from casting Natural order on the turn you want to cast it.
Oh well, more testing.
Thanks to Heroes of the Plane Studios for the amazing sig.
NO RUG: Primer
Tempo Thresh: Primer
The list I was suggested is Drew Levin's Countertop Prog.
I was thinking of cutting Progenitus, Dryad Arbor, Natural Order, Jace, the Mind Sculptor (at least until he drops a bit), and replacing the Rhox War Monks with Knight of the Relinquary (as knight gets beefy big).
That leaves me about 7 slots, of which I'm not sure. My current ideas are the Green Zenith, Counterspell, Ponder, Path to Exile, and Spell Pierce.
MTGO meta is extremely random. You see things like ANT, Team America, Bant of various kinds, Zoo, Merfolk, Lands, Goblins....take your Tier 1 and 2 decks and toss them in a blender.
(Siggy adapted, DarkHunter1357 (deviantART))
Personally I wouldn't play CB varients right now, but that's just me.
Ponder would be a good addition. Alas, again, if your going CB, I would run the Jace sadly.
Thanks to Heroes of the Plane Studios for the amazing sig.
NO RUG: Primer
Tempo Thresh: Primer
You wouldn't? Why?
Or is CB not advisable for a random meta?
(Siggy adapted, DarkHunter1357 (deviantART))
2 Island
1 Plains
4 Windswept Heath
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Tropical Island
1 Forest
3 Tundra
Creatures
4 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Path to Exile
4 Ponder
3 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Counterbalance
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
3 Pithing Needle
2 Llawan, Cephalid Empress
2 Krosan Grip
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Engineered Explosives
3 Spell Pierce
I personally think people underrate countertop right now because of how skill intensive the deck can be. But in a random meta I would think countertop could shore up alot of matchups since it provides that "soft lock" but that's just based on my experience.