@ Avatar of Shadow
... 4x Smother should be 4x Snuff Out or at least a mix between Diabolic Edict/Snuff Out.
Snuff Out is way too good and too fast for the deck to be ignored.
Do you think this is true in general? Or for his particular list? As time goes on, Zoo is showing up in increasing numbers in my meta, as is Burn from newer players in the format. I've been considering making the switch to Smother to help not losing consistently to both decks. I really like Snuff Out, but is it good enough to warrant trying to find other ways to not auto-punt to Zoo, Burn, etc?
I definately like Vindicate (as a 3-off), mainly for added LD next to sinkhole, hymn and wasteland.
I also like the fact that Vindicate destroys other permanents as well (if needed)...every game is different; use Vindicate for LD or use it to get rid of something else in the mid game, depending on what your opponent brings
to the table and depending on your own playing.
Sinkhole is always a 4-off. Hymn to Tourach is a 4-off. Wasteland is a 4-off. Vindicate is a 3-off, next to them. Sometimes you don't draw enough sinkholes and/or hymns early game...this is another thing where Vindicate shines; to destroy a land that Sinkhole couldn't destroy or to eliminate a permanent that Thoughtseize/Hymn couldn't take away earlier. That's why you play Vindicate as a 3-off and not as a 4-off.
I find hippy to be even better with 3x Vindicate around him; Hippy shines with lots of LD and other disruption.
Your list looks very good, but 4x Smother should be 4x Snuff Out or at least a mix between Diabolic Edict/Snuff Out.
Snuff Out is way too good and too fast for the deck to be ignored.
I have playtested with Snuff Out and am still stuck on Smother for (again excuse my ignorance) the fact that it can hit black creatures and I don't lose 4 life early game. I do like Snuff Out's ability to be somewhat free while tapped out, but I have enough life loss as well, and sometimes 4 Nighthawks don't always even it out (although I love the card in this build)
That being said, back to Vindicate. What would suggest I change about the deck, excluding the Hippies, (I have them, but wasn't really hooked on them)
Should I only run G for the 4 Goyf's and a single Pulse? Then take out a single Smother and my 2 duress for 3 Vindicate? That should leave my list at 61 (although I'd like to drop it down to an even 60)
Any ideas? Thanks again for all the feedback. I love this thread, lol.
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Decks
UUU - Go Go Gadget Ninjitsu! (casual) GGG - Beatdown Elves (casual) (G/R)(G/R)(G/R) - Progenitus/Elfball (legacy) BBB - Crucible Pox (legacy) (B/G)(B/G)(B/G) - Eva Green (legacy)
if your meta is infested with zoo and burn, i would suggest playing a different deck. we can fight them off and win, but they're not good match ups. i personaly beat them most of the time, but thats because the pilots of those decks in my meta aren't especially good. eva is a great choice for a contol infested meta.
maybe try agroloam?
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1.) Anyone who thinks cancel is viable should be shot. in the face. with a hammer.
2.) You misunderstand, what I was suggesting was the total exclusion of Spellstutter Sprite, because it just isnt that good anymore.
3.) Understand, Dredge is not really a Magic: The Gathering deck. When a card is playable in it, it doesn't mean it's a tournament playable card. It means it's playable in whatever crazy fantasy world that Dredge operates in.
A note about Doran:
Even if you are running white, I would never run Doran in this deck. I splash white for Vindicate, but Doran is way too color-intensive, and I am probably able to get B/W/G on turn 3 less than 50% of the time. Opponent's Wastelands make it even more difficult.
As for the abyssal persecutor debate. I'm too worried about changing up the deck too much, which seems like is what's necessary to play him. Maybe it's my ignorance speaking, but I think that as much potential the card has, I think it's not for me.
"Be self critical, but divorce your sense of self from your play. You can’t let things affect you emotionally, but at the same time you have to really examine your choices, question them, and see what you could have done better."
- Jon Finkel
Currently Playing:
Standard:
Naya Shaman
Legacy
U/W Tempo
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Countertop Progenitus
Eva Green or Team America, depends on how I'm feeling
Jokes aside, I've been toying with Phyrexian Negator in the Nantuko Shade slot against Merfolk. It was quite a blast. This one game I landed him on turn 1 after a Hymn to Tourach and just killed any potential blockers. There were times he wasn't that hot but those games were lost before he hit the board.
Honestly, I would really like to find room for him in the deck along with Nantuko Shade but the deck is tight enough as it is so it really boils down to playing one or the other.
A funny note on the game against Merfolk: the creature that almost always got hit with a Snuff Out for 4 life was Cursecatcher. It was always the optimal play to get him out of the way when going into a Dark Ritual set of plays.
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In my dream, the world had suffered a terrible disaster. A black haze shut out the sun, and the darkness was alive with the moans and screams of wounded people. Suddenly, a small light glowed. A candle flickered into life, symbol of hope for millions. A single tiny candle, shining in the ugly dark. I laughed and blew it out.
Many thanks to HotP Studios. Special thanks to DNC for this great sig.
bad news, i got raped by iona dredge and u/b reanimator. damn they're fast. nothing i can really do about a turn2 iona nameing black. reanimator is new to our shop, but i think he likes it so i have to prepare... i think i want to switch back to leylines.
what does everyone think? 1-2 ichorid decks, reanimator, loam,... for the past several weeks i've been packing 3 extirpate, 2 ravenous trap. traps are useless against reanimator, so maybe 4 leylines, 2-3 extirpate, and swap the deeds for plague (will help vs zombie tokens and merfs, but not great vs zoo). thoughts?
and here's the good news....
I TRADED FOR MY FIRST TWO PERSECUTORS TONIGHT! now i just have to find me some foil innocent bloods.
are you one of the white splashing members who got railroaded off this thread a few months back? if so, i'm wondering how many white sources you run just for vindicate? and do you use any white board cards? like gaddox teeg (who was an allstar tonight).
1.) Anyone who thinks cancel is viable should be shot. in the face. with a hammer.
2.) You misunderstand, what I was suggesting was the total exclusion of Spellstutter Sprite, because it just isnt that good anymore.
3.) Understand, Dredge is not really a Magic: The Gathering deck. When a card is playable in it, it doesn't mean it's a tournament playable card. It means it's playable in whatever crazy fantasy world that Dredge operates in.
Yeah, 4 Leylines is really the best choice for this deck. If you feel you need more, I'd add either Tormod's Crypt or Bojuka Bog (siding out a non-land so that you're not slowed down). I haven't tested either of those because the Leylines alone are enough for me, but if I were to add more hate, I'd chose one of those over Extirpate.
E. Plague is also amazing. Maybe more so for me since my meta is very tribal heavy (usually 2-3 Goblins, 2-3 Merfolk, 3-4 Elves). I highly recommend using it.
I was really unhappy with Choke, so I put in Summoning Trap instead. I haven't gotten to play it yet (Sunday is the next Tourney), but I expect it to be much better. Choke was just too slow, I think. Merfolk would have Vial out by the time choke came out, CounterTop would have soft lock (and be able to counter it with counterbalance), and Landstill didn't even really care. The deck wants to get threats out, and I hope Trap will be able to help with that.
Jamis, i don't know why you're having issues with choke... it's always been an allstar and has won many games for me.
i tried summoners traps before.. very underwhelming. not only do you probably not run enough creatures to make it worth while, but it does nothing against a swords to plowshares (or removal in general). if you're looking for hate against blue decks, plauge should be good enough for merfs, and chokes truly are amazing vs everything else. but you could try tsunami.. i heard it works well in elfs.. we can play it off a dark rit.
Dyne, do you primarily play eva or thresh? i'd like to know because... 20 lands. seems a tad bit light, and possibly influenced from playing 18 in thresh. i used to play 22, and i'm on 21 now... weird how a single land can make the difference (at least for me). on average, how well has this been working? how often do you have to mull due to your only land being a waste (and otherwise land lite hands)?
edit..
everyone else: so assuming i already run 4 leylines and want 2 extra grave hate cards... planar void, extirpate, ravenous trap, crypt, relic... what would you choose? maybe 1 planar void, 1 extirpate? i really want this to effect both ichorid and reanimator.
1.) Anyone who thinks cancel is viable should be shot. in the face. with a hammer.
2.) You misunderstand, what I was suggesting was the total exclusion of Spellstutter Sprite, because it just isnt that good anymore.
3.) Understand, Dredge is not really a Magic: The Gathering deck. When a card is playable in it, it doesn't mean it's a tournament playable card. It means it's playable in whatever crazy fantasy world that Dredge operates in.
i don't know why you're having issues with choke... it's always been an allstar and has won many games for me.
i tried summoners traps before.. very underwhelming. not only do you probably not run enough creatures to make it worth while, but it does nothing against a swords to plowshares (or removal in general). if you're looking for hate against blue decks, plauge should be good enough for merfs, and chokes truly are amazing vs everything else. but you could try tsunami.. i heard it works well in elfs.. we can play it off a dark rit.
I think it really does have to do with the mana cost. Being at 3 cmc, the card starts fighting with threats I want to play, and I am forced to choose if I want to play a Tarmogoyf or Choke. And often times, I have to try to bait with the other choice to make them counter it so that I can play the card I want on the next turn. Being a tempo deck, this is really unacceptable. I lose a turn by trying to get them to use their FoW on my goyf only to lose another turn by playing Choke instead of a creature, which is what I really want.
That brings up another point of why I don't like Choke: Force of Will. Counterspells in legacy don't need untapped Islands; Force of Will, Daze, and Counterbalance can all still function without the Islands untapping. Sure, we might be able to slow them down with Choke, but we're also being slowed down by playing it instead of threats. All Choke does is make the game last longer, which is exactly what decks like CounterTop, Landstill, and really everything else that plays FoW wants against us. We want to win quickly, not slow things down.
That's why I think I'll like Summoning Trap more. If a threat gets countered, they'll need another counterspell on that turn. This either will result in huge card disadvantage for them, or a resolved threat for me. Either way, I'm happy.
Also, I run 18 creatures, so every 3-4 cards should be a creature. In 7 cards, I should be able to find something. And if not, that would mean my next 7 cards would result in 0 creatures. I'd gladly discard a card to put 7 cards that won't help me on the bottom of my library.
Like I said though, I haven't gotten to use it yet, so I'll see if it's as good as I hope, but Choke just wasn't working for me.
I think it really does have to do with the mana cost. Being at 3 cmc, the card starts fighting with threats I want to play, and I am forced to choose if I want to play a Tarmogoyf or Choke. And often times, I have to try to bait with the other choice to make them counter it so that I can play the card I want on the next turn. Being a tempo deck, this is really unacceptable. I lose a turn by trying to get them to use their FoW on my goyf only to lose another turn by playing Choke instead of a creature, which is what I really want.
That brings up another point of why I don't like Choke: Force of Will. Counterspells in legacy don't need untapped Islands; Force of Will, Daze, and Counterbalance can all still function without the Islands untapping. Sure, we might be able to slow them down with Choke, but we're also being slowed down by playing it instead of threats. All Choke does is make the game last longer, which is exactly what decks like CounterTop, Landstill, and really everything else that plays FoW wants against us. We want to win quickly, not slow things down.
That's why I think I'll like Summoning Trap more. If a threat gets countered, they'll need another counterspell on that turn. This either will result in huge card disadvantage for them, or a resolved threat for me. Either way, I'm happy.
Also, I run 18 creatures, so every 3-4 cards should be a creature. In 7 cards, I should be able to find something. And if not, that would mean my next 7 cards would result in 0 creatures. I'd gladly discard a card to put 7 cards that won't help me on the bottom of my library.
Like I said though, I haven't gotten to use it yet, so I'll see if it's as good as I hope, but Choke just wasn't working for me.
Counterpells do not need Islands, correct.
However, win conditions do. Or Forests, or Mountains. And we are one of the only decks that can destroy basic lands.
A lot of Blue decks run on tempo and control, and with out untapping their lands, they can do neither.
But then we're largely dependent on Sinkhole. I'd rather not have to depend on drawing multiple Sinkholes in order to lock an opponent out. This is not the goal of our deck.
Besides, the decks will just drop a lone Goyf, counter any removal or creature larger than Goyf, and then just swing for the win. They don't need to untap to win, they're just as capable of using whatever lands were untapped before hand, or lands they draw into, or lands they bounce back with Daze.
I'm not denying that Choke is a good card, it is. I run 3 in my Pox sideboard. But our sideboard should have synergy with the rest of our maindeck, and slowing the game down really doesn't fit in this deck. That's why I'm thinking the Trap is good -- it puts large creatures into play for a low cost; this is what our deck wants.
Ok guys I've been doing a lot more testing with this deck and I keep switching things around. Personally I think Abyssal Persecutor is amazing. He will be a tombstalker, makes us less vulnerable to graveyard hate and tramples. His drawback in my build is not a major issue. But to each their own. Here is my new list. My list is definitely a Vesper Green build but i really like the rock style play and its teststing well im jus trying to get the best consitency possible.
but do you even know the definition of "consistency"?
thats what you say you're striving for, and yet your list is all over the place, with many 1,2, and 3 of's. try and stream-line your ideas, you're tring to do too much here.
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1.) Anyone who thinks cancel is viable should be shot. in the face. with a hammer.
2.) You misunderstand, what I was suggesting was the total exclusion of Spellstutter Sprite, because it just isnt that good anymore.
3.) Understand, Dredge is not really a Magic: The Gathering deck. When a card is playable in it, it doesn't mean it's a tournament playable card. It means it's playable in whatever crazy fantasy world that Dredge operates in.
I really like prosecuter, but I dont know if it will fit in eva green with out switching around some cards. I think it may work better in a mba build or dead guy.
Would have to try to squezze in therapy, innocent blood, gatekeeper, or edict and most lists do not have that many extra spots. Running 4off of the prosecuter would be optimal but 8 sac effects would be good.
@Popeye 79. As for graveyard hate 4 leylines is the best and if you run into a ton of reanimator dredge decks run extripate along side as a 2-3 off as you said. I also hate keeping those leylines in the board but they are a automatic win against some decks. I always struggle with e. plague vs deed but since pulse the choice has been easier to go with plague given it is quicker.
But then we're largely dependent on Sinkhole. I'd rather not have to depend on drawing multiple Sinkholes in order to lock an opponent out. This is not the goal of our deck.
Besides, the decks will just drop a lone Goyf, counter any removal or creature larger than Goyf, and then just swing for the win. They don't need to untap to win, they're just as capable of using whatever lands were untapped before hand, or lands they draw into, or lands they bounce back with Daze.
I'm not denying that Choke is a good card, it is. I run 3 in my Pox sideboard. But our sideboard should have synergy with the rest of our maindeck, and slowing the game down really doesn't fit in this deck. That's why I'm thinking the Trap is good -- it puts large creatures into play for a low cost; this is what our deck wants.
You say they'll counter our removal, yet the only counters run in Legacy that can hit Snuff Out are Daze and FoW.
Not too mention with all our hand disruption, being able to pick the spells they can play out of their hands becomes a lot easier with Choke on the board.
And personally, I would rather have them counter Choke then to counter Goyf.
Why would you ever play planar void if your list has tombstalker? Seems like it is really dissynergystic. Unless you completely replaced stalker with persecutor which I don't agree with at all.
If they counter your removal on persecutor and they are at very little or subzero life, simply use him to chump block. I hear 6/6 flier's can kill nearly everything in the format unless it's a 6/7 goyf which the opponent wouldn't swing with anyway's for fear of killing your persecutor/them losing.
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"Yawgmoth," Freyalise whispered as she set the bomb, "now you will pay for your treachery."
Reanimate is great as a 1-off and since I'm already running 2x Duress next to Thoughtseize I decided to cut one for this awesome card.
-1 Marsh flats +1 Bayou.
I'm playing a 3-off Stalker instead of a 4-off and 2x Maelstrom Pulse next to 4x Goyf, so the extra Bayou is very nice (even next to the 1-off Forest).
-1 Shade -1 Tombstalker +2 Gatekeeper of Malakir.
Diabolic edict on a stick next to a 3-off Snuff Out.
-2 Jitte +2 Maelstrom Pulse.
I like Maelstrom Pulse for versatility, no more than a 2-off. It hits everything that your other cards couldn't hit. Solid card, it does what it does.
I'm curious as to how well the 1-of Reanimate does? I've never tried it. Is it a "save your ass card" or what's the reason for the 1 copy?
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Decks
UUU - Go Go Gadget Ninjitsu! (casual) GGG - Beatdown Elves (casual) (G/R)(G/R)(G/R) - Progenitus/Elfball (legacy) BBB - Crucible Pox (legacy) (B/G)(B/G)(B/G) - Eva Green (legacy)
bad news, i got raped by iona dredge and u/b reanimator. damn they're fast. nothing i can really do about a turn2 iona nameing black. reanimator is new to our shop, but i think he likes it so i have to prepare... i think i want to switch back to leylines.
what does everyone think? 1-2 ichorid decks, reanimator, loam,... for the past several weeks i've been packing 3 extirpate, 2 ravenous trap. traps are useless against reanimator, so maybe 4 leylines, 2-3 extirpate, and swap the deeds for plague (will help vs zombie tokens and merfs, but not great vs zoo). thoughts?
and here's the good news....
I TRADED FOR MY FIRST TWO PERSECUTORS TONIGHT! now i just have to find me some foil innocent bloods.
are you one of the white splashing members who got railroaded off this thread a few months back? if so, i'm wondering how many white sources you run just for vindicate? and do you use any white board cards? like gaddox teeg (who was an allstar tonight).
Sorry I haven't responded to this sooner. My manabase is:
3 Bayou
3 Scrubland
3 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wasteland
I really, really don't like non-black basics because of my 4 Hymn, 4 Sinkhole, 3 Shade, and 2 Gatekeeper. This manabase works quite nicely for me.
*Note that I'm playing 4 Polluted Delta because it's nice to bluff a Daze if you don't have a turn 1 play. And on a lesser note, Bloodstained Mire can bluff that you're playing zoo. I would rather play these fetches than diversifying in 2's, because I don't think I will EVER encounter someone needling or Extirpating a fetch. Maybe I'm just overthinking a tiny aspect of my deck... haha I don't know.
Do you think this is true in general? Or for his particular list? As time goes on, Zoo is showing up in increasing numbers in my meta, as is Burn from newer players in the format. I've been considering making the switch to Smother to help not losing consistently to both decks. I really like Snuff Out, but is it good enough to warrant trying to find other ways to not auto-punt to Zoo, Burn, etc?
For reference, my list:
2 Bloodstained Mire
1 Marsh Flats
1 Polluted Delta
4 Bayou
4 Wasteland
4 Swamp
1 Forest
4 Dark Ritual
4 Snuff Out [Smother?]
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Seal of Primordium
3 Nantuko Shade
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Hypnotic Specter
4 Tombstalker
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Engineered Plague
3 Choke
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Extirpate [Probably on the way out]
| BG Eva Green | RG Combo Elves | W Quinn |
https://signup.leagueoflegends.com/?ref=4bf411a62ffff
I have playtested with Snuff Out and am still stuck on Smother for (again excuse my ignorance) the fact that it can hit black creatures and I don't lose 4 life early game. I do like Snuff Out's ability to be somewhat free while tapped out, but I have enough life loss as well, and sometimes 4 Nighthawks don't always even it out (although I love the card in this build)
That being said, back to Vindicate. What would suggest I change about the deck, excluding the Hippies, (I have them, but wasn't really hooked on them)
Should I only run G for the 4 Goyf's and a single Pulse? Then take out a single Smother and my 2 duress for 3 Vindicate? That should leave my list at 61 (although I'd like to drop it down to an even 60)
Any ideas? Thanks again for all the feedback. I love this thread, lol.
UUU - Go Go Gadget Ninjitsu! (casual)
GGG - Beatdown Elves (casual)
(G/R)(G/R)(G/R) - Progenitus/Elfball (legacy)
BBB - Crucible Pox (legacy)
(B/G)(B/G)(B/G) - Eva Green (legacy)
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if your meta is infested with zoo and burn, i would suggest playing a different deck. we can fight them off and win, but they're not good match ups. i personaly beat them most of the time, but thats because the pilots of those decks in my meta aren't especially good. eva is a great choice for a contol infested meta.
maybe try agroloam?
Even if you are running white, I would never run Doran in this deck. I splash white for Vindicate, but Doran is way too color-intensive, and I am probably able to get B/W/G on turn 3 less than 50% of the time. Opponent's Wastelands make it even more difficult.
Abyssal Persecutor and Gatekeeper of Malakir seem to have a nice synergy along with the Cabal therapy's.
As I still need bayou, Tarmogoyf & maelstrom pulse, I'll be using my scrubland's, vindicate and senor Abyssal in their spot.
Who knows, maybe I'll be happy w/o the green altogether.
You could always try B/W Deadguy Ale.
"Be self critical, but divorce your sense of self from your play. You can’t let things affect you emotionally, but at the same time you have to really examine your choices, question them, and see what you could have done better."
- Jon Finkel
Currently Playing:
Standard:
Naya Shaman
Legacy
U/W Tempo
Belcher
Countertop Progenitus
Eva Green or Team America, depends on how I'm feeling
My Trade list!
So what you are saying is that Abyssal Persecutor is superior to Tarmogoyf?
Jokes aside, I've been toying with Phyrexian Negator in the Nantuko Shade slot against Merfolk. It was quite a blast. This one game I landed him on turn 1 after a Hymn to Tourach and just killed any potential blockers. There were times he wasn't that hot but those games were lost before he hit the board.
Honestly, I would really like to find room for him in the deck along with Nantuko Shade but the deck is tight enough as it is so it really boils down to playing one or the other.
A funny note on the game against Merfolk: the creature that almost always got hit with a Snuff Out for 4 life was Cursecatcher. It was always the optimal play to get him out of the way when going into a Dark Ritual set of plays.
Many thanks to HotP Studios. Special thanks to DNC for this great sig.
bad news, i got raped by iona dredge and u/b reanimator. damn they're fast. nothing i can really do about a turn2 iona nameing black. reanimator is new to our shop, but i think he likes it so i have to prepare... i think i want to switch back to leylines.
what does everyone think? 1-2 ichorid decks, reanimator, loam,... for the past several weeks i've been packing 3 extirpate, 2 ravenous trap. traps are useless against reanimator, so maybe 4 leylines, 2-3 extirpate, and swap the deeds for plague (will help vs zombie tokens and merfs, but not great vs zoo). thoughts?
and here's the good news....
I TRADED FOR MY FIRST TWO PERSECUTORS TONIGHT! now i just have to find me some foil innocent bloods.
are you one of the white splashing members who got railroaded off this thread a few months back? if so, i'm wondering how many white sources you run just for vindicate? and do you use any white board cards? like gaddox teeg (who was an allstar tonight).
And I always pack 4 Leyline in my SB, I don't know why you guys would deviate from that.
Thanks to Heroes of the Plane Studios for the amazing sig.
NO RUG: Primer
Tempo Thresh: Primer
E. Plague is also amazing. Maybe more so for me since my meta is very tribal heavy (usually 2-3 Goblins, 2-3 Merfolk, 3-4 Elves). I highly recommend using it.
my sideboard is
4 Engineered Plague
3 Krosan Grip
2 Summoning Trap
2 Umezawa's Jitte
I was really unhappy with Choke, so I put in Summoning Trap instead. I haven't gotten to play it yet (Sunday is the next Tourney), but I expect it to be much better. Choke was just too slow, I think. Merfolk would have Vial out by the time choke came out, CounterTop would have soft lock (and be able to counter it with counterbalance), and Landstill didn't even really care. The deck wants to get threats out, and I hope Trap will be able to help with that.
[180 classic cube]
3 Choke
3 Engineered Plague
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Krosan Grip
Here's my MD:
2 Polluted Delta
2 Bloodstained Mire
4 Swamp
4 Bayou
4 Wasteland
4 Tarmagoyf
3 Tombstalker
3 Nantuko Shade
2 Dark Confidant
4 Thoughtseize
4 Dark Ritual
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
4 Snuff Out
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Duress
Thanks to Heroes of the Plane Studios for the amazing sig.
NO RUG: Primer
Tempo Thresh: Primer
i tried summoners traps before.. very underwhelming. not only do you probably not run enough creatures to make it worth while, but it does nothing against a swords to plowshares (or removal in general). if you're looking for hate against blue decks, plauge should be good enough for merfs, and chokes truly are amazing vs everything else. but you could try tsunami.. i heard it works well in elfs.. we can play it off a dark rit.
Dyne, do you primarily play eva or thresh? i'd like to know because... 20 lands. seems a tad bit light, and possibly influenced from playing 18 in thresh. i used to play 22, and i'm on 21 now... weird how a single land can make the difference (at least for me). on average, how well has this been working? how often do you have to mull due to your only land being a waste (and otherwise land lite hands)?
edit..
everyone else: so assuming i already run 4 leylines and want 2 extra grave hate cards... planar void, extirpate, ravenous trap, crypt, relic... what would you choose? maybe 1 planar void, 1 extirpate? i really want this to effect both ichorid and reanimator.
I found with 21 I'd somtimes have 2-3 extra lands in my hand, where as I've had the same amount of mulling with 20 as I did with 21.
Granted I could test it some more, but so far it hasn't been an issue.
And I run both decks fairly consistenly. Thresh is just better against a Combo meta-game, where as Eva can even be run in an under developed meta.
Thanks to Heroes of the Plane Studios for the amazing sig.
NO RUG: Primer
Tempo Thresh: Primer
I think it really does have to do with the mana cost. Being at 3 cmc, the card starts fighting with threats I want to play, and I am forced to choose if I want to play a Tarmogoyf or Choke. And often times, I have to try to bait with the other choice to make them counter it so that I can play the card I want on the next turn. Being a tempo deck, this is really unacceptable. I lose a turn by trying to get them to use their FoW on my goyf only to lose another turn by playing Choke instead of a creature, which is what I really want.
That brings up another point of why I don't like Choke: Force of Will. Counterspells in legacy don't need untapped Islands; Force of Will, Daze, and Counterbalance can all still function without the Islands untapping. Sure, we might be able to slow them down with Choke, but we're also being slowed down by playing it instead of threats. All Choke does is make the game last longer, which is exactly what decks like CounterTop, Landstill, and really everything else that plays FoW wants against us. We want to win quickly, not slow things down.
That's why I think I'll like Summoning Trap more. If a threat gets countered, they'll need another counterspell on that turn. This either will result in huge card disadvantage for them, or a resolved threat for me. Either way, I'm happy.
Also, I run 18 creatures, so every 3-4 cards should be a creature. In 7 cards, I should be able to find something. And if not, that would mean my next 7 cards would result in 0 creatures. I'd gladly discard a card to put 7 cards that won't help me on the bottom of my library.
Like I said though, I haven't gotten to use it yet, so I'll see if it's as good as I hope, but Choke just wasn't working for me.
[180 classic cube]
Counterpells do not need Islands, correct.
However, win conditions do. Or Forests, or Mountains. And we are one of the only decks that can destroy basic lands.
A lot of Blue decks run on tempo and control, and with out untapping their lands, they can do neither.
Thanks to Heroes of the Plane Studios for the amazing sig.
NO RUG: Primer
Tempo Thresh: Primer
Besides, the decks will just drop a lone Goyf, counter any removal or creature larger than Goyf, and then just swing for the win. They don't need to untap to win, they're just as capable of using whatever lands were untapped before hand, or lands they draw into, or lands they bounce back with Daze.
I'm not denying that Choke is a good card, it is. I run 3 in my Pox sideboard. But our sideboard should have synergy with the rest of our maindeck, and slowing the game down really doesn't fit in this deck. That's why I'm thinking the Trap is good -- it puts large creatures into play for a low cost; this is what our deck wants.
[180 classic cube]
3 Dark Confidant
2 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Vampire Nighthawk
3 Abyssal Persecutor
1 Tombstalker
Sorceries: 14
3 Thoughtseize
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Hymn to Tourach
1 Life from the Loam
3 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Dark Ritual
Enchantments: 2
2 Pernicious Deed
Artifacts: 2
2 Umezawa's Jitte
Land: 21
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Marsh Flats
3 Bayou
4 Wasteland
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Forest
6 Swamp
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Extirpate
3 Krosan Grip
2 Pernicious Deed
3 Tsunami
and i don't mean to sound rude,
but do you even know the definition of "consistency"?
thats what you say you're striving for, and yet your list is all over the place, with many 1,2, and 3 of's. try and stream-line your ideas, you're tring to do too much here.
Would have to try to squezze in therapy, innocent blood, gatekeeper, or edict and most lists do not have that many extra spots. Running 4off of the prosecuter would be optimal but 8 sac effects would be good.
@Popeye 79. As for graveyard hate 4 leylines is the best and if you run into a ton of reanimator dredge decks run extripate along side as a 2-3 off as you said. I also hate keeping those leylines in the board but they are a automatic win against some decks. I always struggle with e. plague vs deed but since pulse the choice has been easier to go with plague given it is quicker.
You say they'll counter our removal, yet the only counters run in Legacy that can hit Snuff Out are Daze and FoW.
Not too mention with all our hand disruption, being able to pick the spells they can play out of their hands becomes a lot easier with Choke on the board.
And personally, I would rather have them counter Choke then to counter Goyf.
Thanks to Heroes of the Plane Studios for the amazing sig.
NO RUG: Primer
Tempo Thresh: Primer
Why would you ever play planar void if your list has tombstalker? Seems like it is really dissynergystic. Unless you completely replaced stalker with persecutor which I don't agree with at all.
If they counter your removal on persecutor and they are at very little or subzero life, simply use him to chump block. I hear 6/6 flier's can kill nearly everything in the format unless it's a 6/7 goyf which the opponent wouldn't swing with anyway's for fear of killing your persecutor/them losing.
Currently Playing:
Retired
That made me think. Maybe adding something similar(i.e. Omnath, Locus of Mana) would work? Possibly as a 2-of?
I'm curious as to how well the 1-of Reanimate does? I've never tried it. Is it a "save your ass card" or what's the reason for the 1 copy?
UUU - Go Go Gadget Ninjitsu! (casual)
GGG - Beatdown Elves (casual)
(G/R)(G/R)(G/R) - Progenitus/Elfball (legacy)
BBB - Crucible Pox (legacy)
(B/G)(B/G)(B/G) - Eva Green (legacy)
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Sorry I haven't responded to this sooner. My manabase is:
3 Bayou
3 Scrubland
3 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wasteland
I really, really don't like non-black basics because of my 4 Hymn, 4 Sinkhole, 3 Shade, and 2 Gatekeeper. This manabase works quite nicely for me.
*Note that I'm playing 4 Polluted Delta because it's nice to bluff a Daze if you don't have a turn 1 play. And on a lesser note, Bloodstained Mire can bluff that you're playing zoo. I would rather play these fetches than diversifying in 2's, because I don't think I will EVER encounter someone needling or Extirpating a fetch. Maybe I'm just overthinking a tiny aspect of my deck... haha I don't know.