SDT doesn't really fit into eva green as thats one less mana a turn you'll have open to you. This is a tempo deck where you want to land a threat or a disruption spell each turn. yes it lets you manipulate your draws but you should really be concentrating more on beating face than manipulation. Thats more for a control deck like the rock or any blue deck.
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The only reason to run top is to avoid a stalker hit with bob. If you dont run bob no sense in having it. But could run sylvan library as a 2 off instead.
Greeny, Curious what you are running in the sideboard.
I agree with jitte being just so so lately. I tried it main last week and was less than impressed with it. But I think two in the board is still needed.
The Maelstrom Pulse is a slow card but do not want to splash for white and vindicate and like the swiss army knife main deck. Is it as good to run three off Vampire Nighthawk instead? Or keep pulse and run nighthawk in place of gatekeeper?
my opinion is pretty much this. i tried the 3x bob and 3x top plan awhile back. i did well, but jut 6 cards completely changed the way the deck has to be played and i didn't like it.
i would also never cut the sinkholes. my opponents always fecth out basics first, weather they're playing me or not. everyone runs wastes so we've just adapted. point being.. i get real annoyed at swords, so i always sink the basic plains.
if you want to play with tops and cut the sinks, i would suggest playing the rock. again, i played the rock last week and did very well (5-1 i think). but they're two very different decks even though they share many of the same cards.
i'd love to try the library, but it's been so long i can't seem to find mine. has anyone here actauly played them in this deck before? comments? someone told me once that drawing extra cards was good. it's not a threat, but it is putting cards in your had every turn and not wasteing mana like top does. ??? and i'm pretty sure there was a list recently that placed playing them.. i might have been the one to post it, can't really remember. anyway..
1.) Anyone who thinks cancel is viable should be shot. in the face. with a hammer.
2.) You misunderstand, what I was suggesting was the total exclusion of Spellstutter Sprite, because it just isnt that good anymore.
3.) Understand, Dredge is not really a Magic: The Gathering deck. When a card is playable in it, it doesn't mean it's a tournament playable card. It means it's playable in whatever crazy fantasy world that Dredge operates in.
I think it's becoming obvious that there are two builds now diverging from this format (or one diverging and one remaining the same): classic Eva Green and a more controlish build, somewhere between Eva Green and The Rock. Perhaps a new thread/primer should be considered for the controlish build (I like to call it Vesper Green, but that's just me), because right now, there's almost no real discussion of the actual decks, but the diferences between these two variants. What do you guys think?
I'd be cool with a different primer, but maybe it should just be "Difference Between Rock & Eva Green"? Either way, I do agree with you. It is still a very helpful discussion though in my opinion.
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Decks
UUU - Go Go Gadget Ninjitsu! (casual) GGG - Beatdown Elves (casual) (G/R)(G/R)(G/R) - Progenitus/Elfball (legacy) BBB - Crucible Pox (legacy) (B/G)(B/G)(B/G) - Eva Green (legacy)
Is Summoning trap a better choice than choke? Which I would not see running both.
I think you are correct about the Nighthawk over pulse. Pulse always seems slow, even though it can handle anything main deck game 1.
In response to the differences between the original eva green build vs the different builds. I think there should be a new Primer made to represent new card pool which would include probably pulse, gatekeeper, leech, nighthawk as these are all great new cards for the deck since its original build. Listing what the staples are and what makes eva green.
I would attempt such but do not get as much time to playtest against top tier decks just my local tournament twice to three times a month.
Greeny, I think that is a excellent point and a good place to start in differentiating decks.
I would say I do not like bob in eva green and here are my reasons.
1) The main reason is I have to run less tombstalkers. Every time I get one in play turn two or three its a game winner.
2) I have to run smother or diabolic edict as creature removal. 8 life for a snuff out is harsh
3) I have to run a card to compliment it like top. In a deck already tightly packed I have to cut something.
I like how the deck runs already and dont get me wrong dark confidant rocks but he is not that great, imho, in eva green. He is more fit for dead guy or the rock. These decks cap out at three mana (without board) but also can stabilize. We dont want to stabilize we try to win quickly with a stalker, goyf or shade while wrecking our opponents hand, land and blockers.
Yeah, dark confidant is definitely not for this deck, your creatures should also be more of a beater than a card engine on a stick. he also makes the zoo match up (which by the way i seem to lose to all the time) even more painful.
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Is Summoning trap a better choice than choke? Which I would not see running both.
GOD NO!!!!
sorry, i just had to let that out. please do not replace choke with trap.
i've been running 3 chokes for a long time to great success. i tried 2 traps as well (it's stupid i have to say this now) in the non-bob version. i actualy drew them many times, but they never worked out. more often than not they just sit in your hand because they do nothing against a swords. other times you could hit no creatures. or a lack luster midgame hippy. just stick with the chokes.
so eva green doesn't use bob. vesper green does use bob, but doesn't use sinkhole (i honestly think you just can't afford them), and deadguy ale does use bob and sinkhole.
did i get that right? rediculous if you ask me. no matter how differently they play, i'm always going to consider them rock. there's just too many to remember now. lets not forget eva white, doran suicide, doran rock, deedless rock, man.. i could go on but what ever.
i've been testing a new deck to pretty good results and i'd like to hear everyone's input. i guess you could say it's a cross of doran sui + deadguy. anyway, here's the list with explanations choices and amounts to follow.
61 cards i've been a fan of for a while, especialy with a mana base like this. you can chnage if you'd like, but don't even bother trying to change my mind on this one, at least not in this deck.
3 bobs is the right number because you're busy disrupting early. nothing costs more than 3cmc, so i've not been afraid to play out 2 or even all 3. they really give you the gas you need after you're done nuking there hand and lands (though i still don't like him in a more straight forward eva green suicide deck, because i really like snuff out and tombstalker better than doran/vindicate/swords here)
3 vampire nighthawks have been amazing for me. helps with bobs pain, get bigger with doran, versitile removal similar to vindicate, though i may drop down to 2, as i'd rather draw something else than a second or third one of these.
3 swords- best removal. with nighthawks, vinidcates and discard i didn't feel the full set was needed. low cmc helps with bob, as well as being able to hit your own creature in a pinch.
3 dorans due to legendary and wanting to run out threats, in addition to color requirents. this 5/5 goes toe to toe with pretty much everything. this bomb makes it ok to drop tombstalker for bobs sake.
1 terravore due to color requirement, but it's a bomb with all the LD, and with bob you'll draw it more often than not. it's pretty easy to play him as a 12/12, and trample is just cake.
2 dures ensures a good durn one play, clears away removal, and i face a lot of control.
3 vindicates- color reqirment and you'll never want to play it early anyway. you always wait until you've disrupted and figure out your opponents game plan.
2 shadow of doubt- this one will probably be the hardest one to sell, but i swear it's pimp juice. not only is it LD, but it replaces itself, and most importantly it's great vs natural order, gifts, ect. i even have a third one in the board. but 2 sylivan librarys might work here.. there really are a lot of things you could put in these slots. however i urge you to try it before you knock it.
single choke because you're not gonna want to see more than one, and it's not really needed when running this much LD.
extirpate and trap vs ichorid. but if you know someone's not playing basics, extirpate a color source can be hard too.
i know deeds is slow, but it's great vs enchantress. helps vs ichorid tokens. pretty good with zoo and elves. and mops the floor with afinity (yes, i actulay have to play these match ups).
2 gaddox teeg is the only good white card i could think of for the board. good vs sweepers, force, natual order, tendrils, ad nauseum, ect ect.
are there any other good white board options i may not have thought of?
so, what does everyone think?
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1.) Anyone who thinks cancel is viable should be shot. in the face. with a hammer.
2.) You misunderstand, what I was suggesting was the total exclusion of Spellstutter Sprite, because it just isnt that good anymore.
3.) Understand, Dredge is not really a Magic: The Gathering deck. When a card is playable in it, it doesn't mean it's a tournament playable card. It means it's playable in whatever crazy fantasy world that Dredge operates in.
single choke because you're not gonna want to see more than one, and it's not really needed when running this much LD.
I have to disagree with this. It's much more game-breaking than a Sinkhole or Wasteland. You want 3-4 because it helps you draw into them and they get countered sometimes.
If the choice is between Choke or Trap, it's hands-down Choke. I'd rather have my opponent be almost completely locked out of a game than get a creature into play for free which he may be able to remove anyway.
2 shadow of doubt
Ha! I was looking at someone's binder on Sunday, saw this and thought to myself that I should try it out. I didn't remember until now! Thanks! It's also good against tutors...
Quote: Popeye79
single choke because you're not gonna want to see more than one, and it's not really needed when running this much LD.
I have to disagree with this. It's much more game-breaking than a Sinkhole or Wasteland. You want 3-4 because it helps you draw into them and they get countered sometimes.
please note, that was only in reference to the list with vindicate. in pure eva green i play 3.
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1.) Anyone who thinks cancel is viable should be shot. in the face. with a hammer.
2.) You misunderstand, what I was suggesting was the total exclusion of Spellstutter Sprite, because it just isnt that good anymore.
3.) Understand, Dredge is not really a Magic: The Gathering deck. When a card is playable in it, it doesn't mean it's a tournament playable card. It means it's playable in whatever crazy fantasy world that Dredge operates in.
The list you posted is definately a rock-ish build; it's nothing like Eva Green, nor Vesper Green. Nothing against it though.
To my knowledge Eva Green has become even stronger and more popular through time, with the addition of some new goodies and some little changes to the original build (3x Shade instead of 4, 3x Stalker instead of 4 and so on). Several rock players are moved to Eva Green as well.
Nighthawk and Gatekeeper are one of those new cards that seem to make the deck even stronger. Some players may not agree with this or think they don't belong in the deck...well, that's fine; I only give my opinion and personal findings.
Bob sucks in Eva Green, period. I've played him myself for several reasons (shame on me!), but actually he's really, really bad for several reasons. Try Nighthawk/Gatekeeper, increase your number of Stalkers (3x = great) and you won't ever want to play Bob anymore.
Snuff out is awesome and I run it as a 3-off, not a 4-off. Very nice next to Nighthawk and Jitte.
I even tend to prefer Nighthawk over Hippy these days. With Nighthawk and Gatekeeper next to Shade, Goyf and Stalker the deck seems really strong, agressive and disruptive. It still has all the early game goodies (sinkhole, wasteland, hymn, thoughtseize, duress) and it can still run Pulse and/or Jitte main.
Hippy is nice and I hate not playing it (beautiful FNM foil versions), but often I experience that he makes your early game phases much too long (if you know what I mean). Not agressive. I also don't like drawing Hippy in the early mid game or mid/late game.
Reanimate is one of those cards that fits in the deck as well (even better with nighthawk/gatekeeper), but it's still personal taste (a 1-off Duress is fine too.....).
I've been reading these differences in opinion and am just battling in my mind the list to go for. See, I have proxid lists but I'm still working on buying the cards. I need only about 10 more cards to complete the deck, but the cost of legacy lately is killing me. All these cards are rising and rising so I'm waiting til some prices fall, because I really don't NEED the actual cards until November when I'm planning on participating in a 10k. Anyway to the point:
I'm still in the process of debating about if taking Hypnotic Specter out instead of playing with BOTH Hyppie AND Nighthawk. I'm also, starting to think that Pulse is a little to slow for this deck. So if I could be so bold to ask you guys to just post your lists so I can compare, that'd be really appreciated.
My meta is mainly casual and usually Eva Green doesn't fair too well against them, until the Legacy breaks out, lol. So here's my list:
@ popeye 79 I felt the same way about summoning trap vs choke but wanted to offer what we would miss from the list. As for the three color lists I like what they add (vindicate, swords) but it makes a unstable mana base (considering every good deck in 1.5 runs wasteland). I like the list but mana base could use some tweeking.
@ Avatar of shadow I like the second deck with out Hypnotic spector. But I think if we lost hyppie should add more discard as in Greeny's revised build. Which I deffinately like. Also I dont think 61 cards is needed.
@ Greeny What about add one Putrid leech in place of one Nighthawk. I think the hawk is optimal at a three off. This gives us 11 beaters and 5 utility creatures. I really like the numbers in the deck.
@ popeye 79 I felt the same way about summoning trap vs choke but wanted to offer what we would miss from the list. As for the three color lists I like what they add (vindicate, swords) but it makes a unstable mana base (considering every good deck in 1.5 runs wasteland). I like the list but mana base could use some tweeking.
thank you for being the first to actualy criticaly comment on my newest build.
i am up for suggestions, but i have to say- it's been pretty smooth so far. by reducing the number of fetches to 6 (no need for more without tombstalker), i'm actualy getting more lands. flooded sometimes and i was actualy thinking about takeing a land out. i have played a lot of games so far, and i almost never have problems, even against wasteland. the deck can operate on 2 lands for several turns. you'll get the 3rd land by the time you need it. only canadian thresh and team america have been a little troublsom in regards to LD.
people always say "i don't like unstable mana bases due to wasteland". this really makes no sence to me... there are a lot of 3 color teir 1 decks that work just fine. (countertop, bant, thresh, landstill, agroloam, tendrils, zoo, countersliver, team america, ect ect..)
it's not like we're mana hungry, 3 colors are easy and add some depth to the deck. doran is a huge must answer creature that is bigger than goyf more often than not and goes toe to toe with opposing stalkers. a much better threat, which is what we need more of. you could also run something like captain hammer over at the source. from memory it's something like this..
1.) Anyone who thinks cancel is viable should be shot. in the face. with a hammer.
2.) You misunderstand, what I was suggesting was the total exclusion of Spellstutter Sprite, because it just isnt that good anymore.
3.) Understand, Dredge is not really a Magic: The Gathering deck. When a card is playable in it, it doesn't mean it's a tournament playable card. It means it's playable in whatever crazy fantasy world that Dredge operates in.
The way I look at eva green is a mono black agro deck with goyf and added utility (pulse, choke, grip, seal, deed). You can play the deck as a mono colored deck with no fear of wasteland. And thank wizards for making enemy saclands.
When you change the focus of mba it is not eva green it is the rock. imho
@ greeny dont be a cheapskate and pick up a leech. Lol!!! By the way it doesnt matter what eva green wears she is sexy.
No, it doesn't. This deck needs more threats, not more mid-late game cards that can't finish the job quickly (who's playing the rock now?). I'd say 2-3 at max, if thats your playstyle.
Doran would be smashed by vampire nighthawk and/or snuff out/gatekeeper in a match vs Eva Green.
And Goyf is smashed by the same cards. what's your point? everything falls to removal, and i'm running nighthawks too.
I tried Eva Green with a white splash (for Vindicate/Swords) and I didn't like it;
because you had it all wrong. the main reason to be splashing is doran, followed up by vindicate. eva green has been lacking in big aggressive finishers. being able to play goyf, stalker and doran is the nuts. vindicate is just icing. i wouldn't play swords in a build like that (see list in my last post taken from proven at the source).
much less stable mana base with often an uncastable goyf or vindicate that is wasting time in your hands.
i haven't had this problem yet, nor do i think i ever will. those are two cards that you don't want to be playing early anyway, you'll have what ever color you need by then.
Do I need to go for a Bayou or Scrubland this time? Shall I pick a plain, forest or swamp? If that's your style, it's fine. It's inconsistent.
you're right, the best decks in legacy right now are all 3 colored so they must be inconsistent. damn, inconsistancy sounds pretty good, i want to win major events too. (ends sarcasm).
please stop saying things like this, it's just plain ignorant.
How many times do we need to say that adding white just isn't needed in Eva Green?
a while back the mods merged eva green and eva white. this is where we're supposed to discuss it. if you don't like it, than don't comment on it.
Swords is 1000 times worse than Snuff Out in this deck
i completely agree.
and why would you only add white for Vindicate? Play Pulse.
again, for better beaters. in doing so, vindicate trumps pulse due to hitting lands and not killing your own goyf in a stand off.
Not to be a prick, but I think your new lists belong in a Rock thread,
no it doesn't. my new list is a mix of doran suicide (eva white) and deadguy ale. i posted in both threads to try and stir up some actual discussion.
either way, the straight doran sui list should at least be discussed. i've been playing it and it actualy does improve a lot of our matches. most importantly the countertop progenitus match. hitting more of their basics early on is hugely important. also being able to apply so much more pressure via doran helps end the game quicker. they only have so many swords and counterspells.
1.) Anyone who thinks cancel is viable should be shot. in the face. with a hammer.
2.) You misunderstand, what I was suggesting was the total exclusion of Spellstutter Sprite, because it just isnt that good anymore.
3.) Understand, Dredge is not really a Magic: The Gathering deck. When a card is playable in it, it doesn't mean it's a tournament playable card. It means it's playable in whatever crazy fantasy world that Dredge operates in.
@ popeye79 In the build you presented you sub basically stalker for doran? Would you rather not just have a 5/5 flyer for two black mana instead of a 5/5 ground pounder for BWG. The only reason I bring this up this is the change in the list you posted. You actually run less quick win cons (total at 8 I like terravore but with no basic green mana he is mid to late game which we have shade).
Also I have to add in your list dark ritual may be a good card to remove (when I played deadguy I did not like it) just an option. mid game it serves little purpose where with the stalker/shade list you have options.
The list you posted by captain hammer is more eva green than the one you had posted. Basically doran for shade and vindicate in the extra spot (easy to swallow this).
Also No one has given the whole omg you arent playing with hyppie thing. So I guess it has rotated out with the meta?
Does anyone see any impact with Worldwake?
The one to cast 13/13 seems playable as a one or two off in place of the leech. I would think he is a 5/5 quickly.
I tried to play your deck on MWS. Something like 30 games. hello and welcome to the community! thank you for ACTUALLY testing
I think less extirpate and more trap is better. I have big trouble with loam killing my land. can i ask why do you think replacing extirpate for more traps would improve your loam match up? what's your reasoning? both can be responded to via a cycle land (remember to wait and respond to the dredge trigger). but extirmates help in more matches than traps do, saves board space. you could also try leylines, relics, planar voids.. all of which would be better than trap against loam.
Goblin match up is hard without plague. What do you think about it? sideboards are very meta dependant, you may need plagues.
Dragon stompy is... =o Very hard...on the play you want to pick their hand apart. on the draw i might side out thoughtsiezes and the like and focus on removal. just accept the fact that a chalice or moon is going to come down turn one. if you're that worried about it (not a highly played deck) add a single basic forest so that you can cast krosan grip.
Terravore is tough to play too. Need two bayou. Shadow of doubt is still difficult too. if you continually draw terravore early i could see why you'd get frustrated. i personally haven’t had a problem, and have been running a singleton in eva green for several months now (got this from winning deck lists in Europe). he's often won me games, either by attacking or gaining me a huge cushion of life (via a swords) to continue my assault unabated. shadow of doubt is still in testing.. it kinda sucks as an early play, but it's pretty strong after a few turns of destroying their other lands, or to stop that dreaded natural order. even in the few situations that it is a completely dead card, at least it replaces itself. i'm going to continue testing with two.
if you do cut the terravore, i don't think i'd add a swamp, 21 lands are fine. try something else out.
@ popeye79 In the build you presented you sub basically stalker for doran? Would you rather not just have a 5/5 flyer for two black mana instead of a 5/5 ground pounder for BWG. The only reason I bring this up this is the change in the list you posted. You actually run less quick win cons (total at 8 I like terravore but with no basic green mana he is mid to late game which we have shade).
The list i proposed, is supposed to be slower- hence the bobs/deadguy approach. stalker and snuff out really hurt when you're playing bob, hence the doran/sword/vindicate replacement. more about the # of threats below
Also I have to add in your list dark ritual may be a good card to remove (when I played deadguy I did not like it) just an option. mid game it serves little purpose where with the stalker/shade list you have options. i really like the explosiveness of rits, and there are only a few cards they can't help. they've been working out quite well for me thus far; if i was going to remove them i'd change the whole deck to a slower rock.
The list you posted by captain hammer is more eva green than the one you had posted. Basically doran for shade and vindicate in the extra spot (easy to swallow this).
ya, I’ve really been liking that list too. the deadguy list is still in testing, but the doran sui list I’ve been playing for a bit and it's pretty great. it's like playing a deck with 8 tombstalkers. having 12 huge threats is just awesome sauce.
If you could provide I would be interested in seeing a mana base though,
4x marsh flats 4x verdant catacombs 4x wasteland 4x scrubland 4x bayou 2x swamp just like canadian thresh and team america, you can't afford to play the basics. i tried it out; opening hand with a basic plains when you need another swamp for that hymn really sucks.
Also No one has given the whole omg you arent playing with hyppie thing. So I guess it has rotated out with the meta? no, just depends on meta. more control, play hippy. more agro, play nighthawk.
this is laughable. similar to eva, the problem with TA and thresh is the lack of threats (8 isn't enough) so they've been adding more (v.clique). shade is very lackluster and does not even compare to doran. hence the reason for most of us dropping them down to 2-3, and the need for more threats. who dies to a bolt or fire/ice? who is an immediate threat that doesn't require copious amounts of mana to hopefully be effective? also- i'm the one who advocated leach as a singleton to replace a shade, but he doesn't even hold a torch to doran.
3)There's nothing wrong with playing an early goyf in Eva Green i don’t' know about you, but i'd rather disrupt early and hold goyf in my hand until he's larger. playing him too early is just going to get him killed by a spell or in combat because he'll be too small. VERY RARELY would i advise playing an early goyf.. like when you have to block turn one lacky or something. If you don't want to play Vindicate early in the game, why don't you play it as a 3-off instead of 4-off? personally, i do. You can run faster solutions instead, since speed is vital in legacy. and yet you play pulse? pick a side and stick with it, you can't argue a side when ever it benefits you the most and then change views. In competitive environments you'll see what Vindicate/Doran bring to the table and I'd like to hear your results by then. i only play in competitive environments, with some of the top players in my state. if you'd stop harassing me about something you don't personally like, but is supposed to be discussed in this thread, than maybe you'd be reading more about my results.
4)There's no such thing as 'the best decks'. If so, than Eva Green belongs to the list as well. I do believe in the 'best players'. how blind are you? i love eva green to death, but it is FAR from tier 1. looking at tourney results you wont' see much eva. what you will see is a lot of countertop, thresh and agro loam. i'd say those are the top 3 decks right now... all of which are 3 colored.
5)I don't think Eva Green players are waiting for this, at least I'm not. then don't reply, the world doesn't revolve around you. there are people out there who splash white but stopped posting due to being railroaded off a while back.
6) either way, the straight doran sui list should at least be discussed. I’ve been playing it and it actually does improve a lot of our matches. most importantly the countertop progenitus match.
What do you use your SB for? you're missing the point that game one is drastically improved.
7)Doran doesn't end games quicker. Together with Vindicate and without the quick beaters from Eva Green he makes the game last longer in comparison.
compared to a mid/late game shade, little ol nighthawk or gatekeeper? really? do you honestly think those "quick beaters" are going to end the game quicker? shut the hell up and test the deck.
8) they only have so many swords and counterspells.
We only have so many fast disruption and so many options to run against it. hence the reason more beaters is a good idea. I like an opposing swords, it gives me the life back I lost by fetches, thoughtseizes, snuff outs. wow, i think i'm giving up on you.
i'm sorry if i'm getting a little rude, but you’re negative bashing w/o proper testing is really starting to irritate me.
I'm not telling everyone playing b/g eva they're wrong and must do it my way. i'm just tiring to connect with those out there who are splashing (and this is the appropriate place). so please, let me do that.
Doran is legendary, which is a disadvantage. captain hammer strongly advocated running the full 4. most of the standard and extended decks run 4. there is a reason, he's a powerful must answer creature. i personaly only like to run 3.
Doran requires a swamp, forest and a plains, which is another serious disadvantage not to forget about. and rhox war monk requires an island, plains and a forest. yet he's still played. whats your point? again, test the deck.. it's not that hard.
Vindicate doesn't make any sense as a 4-off in B/G/W build (early game you want to play different things first). hence the reason that i only run 3, but a 3rd/4th turn vindicate is still pretty hot after a sinkhole and waste. i woulnd't fault anyone for running the full set.
1.) Anyone who thinks cancel is viable should be shot. in the face. with a hammer.
2.) You misunderstand, what I was suggesting was the total exclusion of Spellstutter Sprite, because it just isnt that good anymore.
3.) Understand, Dredge is not really a Magic: The Gathering deck. When a card is playable in it, it doesn't mean it's a tournament playable card. It means it's playable in whatever crazy fantasy world that Dredge operates in.
I know some people have been against him, but I've been thinking lately (perhaps a little too much) about getting dead draws. See, we obviously like to draw into anything but a land at certain times. Especially if you're in a bad situation and need a quick answer.
I've been considering adding 1-2 Dark Confidants. I saw some lists running that amount and I started thinking about the Pro's and Con's of running them/having one in play.
Pro's:
- In a tough situation and draw into a land? No problem, Dark Confidant is in play. (Lose 0 life and draw your extra card) Now you have a playable land and an answer to your trouble.
- Only have a Dark Ritual in hand, with nothing to play it with? No problem, Dark Confidant is in play. Reveal a Thoughtseize (Lose a life, then draw your extra card) That extra card is a Hymn to Tourach. Great! Hand disruption is always good!
Con's:
You reveal a Tombstalker.
I couldn't think about anymore Con's to playing a Dark Confidant, other than revealing Tombstalker and lose 8 life. I know it's a HUGE con, but I don't run 3 Tombstalkers in my build. I do like the thought of having card advantage, but other than Confidant, I can't think of anything else that gives card advantage.
If I'm looking at this wrong please let me know! Do you think running 2 Confidant's is a bad idea? Why? What would you take out for 2 Confidants?
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Decks
UUU - Go Go Gadget Ninjitsu! (casual) GGG - Beatdown Elves (casual) (G/R)(G/R)(G/R) - Progenitus/Elfball (legacy) BBB - Crucible Pox (legacy) (B/G)(B/G)(B/G) - Eva Green (legacy)
@Avatar of Shadow,
I think the Con is overall life loss. Suicide decks have a lot of cards like Thoughtseize where you are paying life already so it can be a difficult balance with Confidant as well.
They are not in my deck just because I do not own them. However if I get a couple they will go in as it is Blacks best draw engine.
I'm planning on fitting 2 Dark Confidant in there, but don't know what to take out. I'm thinking about either 1 Duress and 1 Smother. OR 2 Gatekeeper. I'm not sure yet.
Any other thoughts?
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Decks
UUU - Go Go Gadget Ninjitsu! (casual) GGG - Beatdown Elves (casual) (G/R)(G/R)(G/R) - Progenitus/Elfball (legacy) BBB - Crucible Pox (legacy) (B/G)(B/G)(B/G) - Eva Green (legacy)
Your list looks really solid (it's the list I tend to run as well), but personally I would change 4x Smother with 3x Snuff Out. This makes it 60 cards in total and the 3-off Snuff Out works well next to the 2-off Gatekeeper, 3-off Nighthawk (and 2-off Maelstrom Pulse)
Personally I don't like Confidant in Eva Green because it isn't a threat from itself and it doesn't add something to the game plan, but you can always try and see if you like it (as a 2-off).
-) Phyrexian arena requires 3 mana, which is one more than dark confidant. The deck is about speed and laying down threats...phyrexian arena is not exactly a threat and dark confidant isn't a threat either (at least not in Eva Green), since he doesn't add anything to the game plan. Dark Confidant is inconsistent without SDT and with Snuff Outs (3/4x) and Tombstalkers (3/4x); sometimes you'll be lucky drawing lands or very low cmc spells first, other times you'll kill yourself because of way too many damage in short time (which is why I don't like him in the deck). As a 'non-threat' he also eats up too many valuable space.
-) Phyrexian arena makes you lose 1 life every upkeep, while Dark Confidant can give you cards for free (1st card a land= 0 damage). This is what makes Dark Confidant so good, especially in a deck with already very low cmc spells.
-) Phyrexian arena is a lot more difficult to get rid of...(it's an enchantment). When the lifeloss is getting too much, you can't sacrifice it (unless you run Seal of Primordium next to it, but that's a really bad strategy to begin with). You can always get rid of Bob, mostly by attacking/blocking and it's easier to kill for your opponent as well (which I found a plus in this deck).
-) Phyrexian arena can't swing (for 2) like Bob can.
gotchya
Please add more content to your posts. Spam warning issued. - Nai
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Decks
UUU - Go Go Gadget Ninjitsu! (casual) GGG - Beatdown Elves (casual) (G/R)(G/R)(G/R) - Progenitus/Elfball (legacy) BBB - Crucible Pox (legacy) (B/G)(B/G)(B/G) - Eva Green (legacy)
with your given list, to fit 2 bobs, personally i would take out one nighthawk and one pulse. i love the hawks, but 4 seems kinda slow as they're not swinging for much every turn. pulse while versitile, is slow as well. if you're slowing yourself down even further by playing bob (not a threat but does draw you into them), i'd like to actualy draw a threat and not another slow card. make sense? if not, i'm opperating on very little sleep at the moment.
@ Chiccada-
if that land's type was "swamp" so that we could fetch it out i would play it in a heart beat. as it stands, i wouldn't play it unless it was for a small meta that i knew had lots of ichorid, loam and the sort. because you're right, cipt really sucks when it's one of the lands in your opening hand.
about arena-
i agree that it's a bad idea for many of the reasons stated.
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1.) Anyone who thinks cancel is viable should be shot. in the face. with a hammer.
2.) You misunderstand, what I was suggesting was the total exclusion of Spellstutter Sprite, because it just isnt that good anymore.
3.) Understand, Dredge is not really a Magic: The Gathering deck. When a card is playable in it, it doesn't mean it's a tournament playable card. It means it's playable in whatever crazy fantasy world that Dredge operates in.
I agree that arena is way to slow for eva green. As said comparing to bob it does no damadge and does the same thing. In all seriousness what about Sylvan library.
It would serve the same as bob and top in one card.
The new land is slow and leyline is still the best call.
I think the only card worth a try for us in the new set is Death's Shadow.
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SDT doesn't really fit into eva green as thats one less mana a turn you'll have open to you. This is a tempo deck where you want to land a threat or a disruption spell each turn. yes it lets you manipulate your draws but you should really be concentrating more on beating face than manipulation. Thats more for a control deck like the rock or any blue deck.
Legacy
:symb::symr:Vial Goblins:symr::symb:
:symu::symb:Dredge:symu::symb:
EDH
:symg::symb::symw:Teneb, the Harvester:symg::symb::symw:
:symb::symb::symb:Skittles, The Blight Dragon:symb::symb::symb:
Greeny, Curious what you are running in the sideboard.
I usually run:
4x Leyline of the void
3x Engineered plague
3x Krosan grip
3x Choke
2x Umezawa's Jitte
With sometimes keeping handy extirpate, pernicious deed, perish
I agree with jitte being just so so lately. I tried it main last week and was less than impressed with it. But I think two in the board is still needed.
Here is current main deck:
4x Tarmogyf
4x Hypnotic Specter
3x Tombstalker
3x Nantuko Shade
2x Gatekeeper of Malakir
1x Putrid leech
3x Snuff Out
4x Hymn to tourach
4x Thoughtseize
4x Sinkhole
3x Maelstrom Pulse
3x Marsh Flats
4x Verdant Catacombs
4x Bayou
5x Swamp
1x Forest
The Maelstrom Pulse is a slow card but do not want to splash for white and vindicate and like the swiss army knife main deck. Is it as good to run three off Vampire Nighthawk instead? Or keep pulse and run nighthawk in place of gatekeeper?
Please give thoughts
my opinion is pretty much this. i tried the 3x bob and 3x top plan awhile back. i did well, but jut 6 cards completely changed the way the deck has to be played and i didn't like it.
i would also never cut the sinkholes. my opponents always fecth out basics first, weather they're playing me or not. everyone runs wastes so we've just adapted. point being.. i get real annoyed at swords, so i always sink the basic plains.
if you want to play with tops and cut the sinks, i would suggest playing the rock. again, i played the rock last week and did very well (5-1 i think). but they're two very different decks even though they share many of the same cards.
i'd love to try the library, but it's been so long i can't seem to find mine. has anyone here actauly played them in this deck before? comments? someone told me once that drawing extra cards was good.
I'd be cool with a different primer, but maybe it should just be "Difference Between Rock & Eva Green"? Either way, I do agree with you. It is still a very helpful discussion though in my opinion.
UUU - Go Go Gadget Ninjitsu! (casual)
GGG - Beatdown Elves (casual)
(G/R)(G/R)(G/R) - Progenitus/Elfball (legacy)
BBB - Crucible Pox (legacy)
(B/G)(B/G)(B/G) - Eva Green (legacy)
Visit Maelstrom Graphics for awesome signatures and avatars
Is Summoning trap a better choice than choke? Which I would not see running both.
I think you are correct about the Nighthawk over pulse. Pulse always seems slow, even though it can handle anything main deck game 1.
In response to the differences between the original eva green build vs the different builds. I think there should be a new Primer made to represent new card pool which would include probably pulse, gatekeeper, leech, nighthawk as these are all great new cards for the deck since its original build. Listing what the staples are and what makes eva green.
I would attempt such but do not get as much time to playtest against top tier decks just my local tournament twice to three times a month.
I would say I do not like bob in eva green and here are my reasons.
1) The main reason is I have to run less tombstalkers. Every time I get one in play turn two or three its a game winner.
2) I have to run smother or diabolic edict as creature removal. 8 life for a snuff out is harsh
3) I have to run a card to compliment it like top. In a deck already tightly packed I have to cut something.
I like how the deck runs already and dont get me wrong dark confidant rocks but he is not that great, imho, in eva green. He is more fit for dead guy or the rock. These decks cap out at three mana (without board) but also can stabilize. We dont want to stabilize we try to win quickly with a stalker, goyf or shade while wrecking our opponents hand, land and blockers.
Again only my opinions as he shows good results:)
Legacy
:symb::symr:Vial Goblins:symr::symb:
:symu::symb:Dredge:symu::symb:
EDH
:symg::symb::symw:Teneb, the Harvester:symg::symb::symw:
:symb::symb::symb:Skittles, The Blight Dragon:symb::symb::symb:
GOD NO!!!!
sorry, i just had to let that out. please do not replace choke with trap.
i've been running 3 chokes for a long time to great success. i tried 2 traps as well (it's stupid i have to say this now) in the non-bob version. i actualy drew them many times, but they never worked out. more often than not they just sit in your hand because they do nothing against a swords. other times you could hit no creatures. or a lack luster midgame hippy. just stick with the chokes.
so eva green doesn't use bob. vesper green does use bob, but doesn't use sinkhole (i honestly think you just can't afford them), and deadguy ale does use bob and sinkhole.
did i get that right? rediculous if you ask me. no matter how differently they play, i'm always going to consider them rock. there's just too many to remember now. lets not forget eva white, doran suicide, doran rock, deedless rock, man.. i could go on but what ever.
i've been testing a new deck to pretty good results and i'd like to hear everyone's input. i guess you could say it's a cross of doran sui + deadguy.
3 vampire nighthawks
4 goyfs
3 doran
1 terravore
4 dark rits
2 duress
4 thoughtseize
4 hymn
4 sink holes
3 vinidcate
3 swords
2 shadow of doubt
2 marsh flats
2 swamp
1 murmuring bosk
4 bayou
4 scrubland
4 wasteland
1 choke
3 krosan grip
3 extirpate
2 ravenous trap
2 gaddox teeg
3 pernicious deeds
1 shadow of doubt
61 cards i've been a fan of for a while, especialy with a mana base like this. you can chnage if you'd like, but don't even bother trying to change my mind on this one, at least not in this deck.
3 bobs is the right number because you're busy disrupting early. nothing costs more than 3cmc, so i've not been afraid to play out 2 or even all 3. they really give you the gas you need after you're done nuking there hand and lands (though i still don't like him in a more straight forward eva green suicide deck, because i really like snuff out and tombstalker better than doran/vindicate/swords here)
3 vampire nighthawks have been amazing for me. helps with bobs pain, get bigger with doran, versitile removal similar to vindicate, though i may drop down to 2, as i'd rather draw something else than a second or third one of these.
3 swords- best removal. with nighthawks, vinidcates and discard i didn't feel the full set was needed. low cmc helps with bob, as well as being able to hit your own creature in a pinch.
3 dorans due to legendary and wanting to run out threats, in addition to color requirents. this 5/5 goes toe to toe with pretty much everything. this bomb makes it ok to drop tombstalker for bobs sake.
1 terravore due to color requirement, but it's a bomb with all the LD, and with bob you'll draw it more often than not. it's pretty easy to play him as a 12/12, and trample is just cake.
2 dures ensures a good durn one play, clears away removal, and i face a lot of control.
3 vindicates- color reqirment and you'll never want to play it early anyway. you always wait until you've disrupted and figure out your opponents game plan.
2 shadow of doubt- this one will probably be the hardest one to sell, but i swear it's pimp juice. not only is it LD, but it replaces itself, and most importantly it's great vs natural order, gifts, ect. i even have a third one in the board. but 2 sylivan librarys might work here.. there really are a lot of things you could put in these slots. however i urge you to try it before you knock it.
single choke because you're not gonna want to see more than one, and it's not really needed when running this much LD.
extirpate and trap vs ichorid. but if you know someone's not playing basics, extirpate a color source can be hard too.
i know deeds is slow, but it's great vs enchantress. helps vs ichorid tokens. pretty good with zoo and elves. and mops the floor with afinity (yes, i actulay have to play these match ups).
2 gaddox teeg is the only good white card i could think of for the board. good vs sweepers, force, natual order, tendrils, ad nauseum, ect ect.
are there any other good white board options i may not have thought of?
so, what does everyone think?
If the choice is between Choke or Trap, it's hands-down Choke. I'd rather have my opponent be almost completely locked out of a game than get a creature into play for free which he may be able to remove anyway.
Ha! I was looking at someone's binder on Sunday, saw this and thought to myself that I should try it out. I didn't remember until now! Thanks! It's also good against tutors...
I love Ravnica block.
please note, that was only in reference to the list with vindicate. in pure eva green i play 3.
Yes, in Bg, 3 need to be in the SB.
Thanks to Heroes of the Plane Studios for the amazing sig.
NO RUG: Primer
Tempo Thresh: Primer
I've been reading these differences in opinion and am just battling in my mind the list to go for. See, I have proxid lists but I'm still working on buying the cards. I need only about 10 more cards to complete the deck, but the cost of legacy lately is killing me. All these cards are rising and rising so I'm waiting til some prices fall, because I really don't NEED the actual cards until November when I'm planning on participating in a 10k. Anyway to the point:
I'm still in the process of debating about if taking Hypnotic Specter out instead of playing with BOTH Hyppie AND Nighthawk. I'm also, starting to think that Pulse is a little to slow for this deck. So if I could be so bold to ask you guys to just post your lists so I can compare, that'd be really appreciated.
My meta is mainly casual and usually Eva Green doesn't fair too well against them, until the Legacy breaks out, lol. So here's my list:
3x Marsh Flats
4x Wasteland
4x Verdant Catacombs
4x Bayou
5x Swamp
3x Nantuko Shade
4x Vampire Nighthawk
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Hypnotic Specter
4x Smother
4x Sinkhole
4x Dark Ritual
4x Thoughtseize
4x Hymn To Tourach
This is my 2nd optional build:
3x Marsh Flats
4x Wasteland
4x Verdant Catacombs
4x Bayou
5x Swamp
3x Nantuko Shade
3x Gatekeeper of Malakir
4x Vampire Nighthawk
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Smother
4x Sinkhole
4x Dark Ritual
4x Thoughtseize
4x Hymn To Tourach
Which do you think is a more solid build?
UUU - Go Go Gadget Ninjitsu! (casual)
GGG - Beatdown Elves (casual)
(G/R)(G/R)(G/R) - Progenitus/Elfball (legacy)
BBB - Crucible Pox (legacy)
(B/G)(B/G)(B/G) - Eva Green (legacy)
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@ Avatar of shadow I like the second deck with out Hypnotic spector. But I think if we lost hyppie should add more discard as in Greeny's revised build. Which I deffinately like. Also I dont think 61 cards is needed.
@ Greeny What about add one Putrid leech in place of one Nighthawk. I think the hawk is optimal at a three off. This gives us 11 beaters and 5 utility creatures. I really like the numbers in the deck.
thank you for being the first to actualy criticaly comment on my newest build.
i am up for suggestions, but i have to say- it's been pretty smooth so far. by reducing the number of fetches to 6 (no need for more without tombstalker), i'm actualy getting more lands. flooded sometimes and i was actualy thinking about takeing a land out. i have played a lot of games so far, and i almost never have problems, even against wasteland. the deck can operate on 2 lands for several turns. you'll get the 3rd land by the time you need it. only canadian thresh and team america have been a little troublsom in regards to LD.
people always say "i don't like unstable mana bases due to wasteland". this really makes no sence to me... there are a lot of 3 color teir 1 decks that work just fine. (countertop, bant, thresh, landstill, agroloam, tendrils, zoo, countersliver, team america, ect ect..)
it's not like we're mana hungry, 3 colors are easy and add some depth to the deck. doran is a huge must answer creature that is bigger than goyf more often than not and goes toe to toe with opposing stalkers. a much better threat, which is what we need more of. you could also run something like captain hammer over at the source. from memory it's something like this..
4 tombstalker
4 doran
3 hippy
4 thoughtseize
4 hymn
4 vindicate
4 snuff out
When you change the focus of mba it is not eva green it is the rock. imho
@ greeny dont be a cheapskate and pick up a leech. Lol!!! By the way it doesnt matter what eva green wears she is sexy.
Pointing out the obvious that Doran would not be smashed by Snuff Out.
Also I have to add in your list dark ritual may be a good card to remove (when I played deadguy I did not like it) just an option. mid game it serves little purpose where with the stalker/shade list you have options.
The list you posted by captain hammer is more eva green than the one you had posted. Basically doran for shade and vindicate in the extra spot (easy to swallow this).
If you could provide I would be interested in seeing a mana base though, I would think:
4x marsh flats
4x verdant catacombs
3x wasteland
3x scrubland
3x bayou
2x swamp
1x forest
1x plains
Also No one has given the whole omg you arent playing with hyppie thing. So I guess it has rotated out with the meta?
Does anyone see any impact with Worldwake?
The one to cast 13/13 seems playable as a one or two off in place of the leech. I would think he is a 5/5 quickly.
Dark Confidant - good or bad?
I know some people have been against him, but I've been thinking lately (perhaps a little too much) about getting dead draws. See, we obviously like to draw into anything but a land at certain times. Especially if you're in a bad situation and need a quick answer.
I've been considering adding 1-2 Dark Confidants. I saw some lists running that amount and I started thinking about the Pro's and Con's of running them/having one in play.
Pro's:
- In a tough situation and draw into a land? No problem, Dark Confidant is in play. (Lose 0 life and draw your extra card) Now you have a playable land and an answer to your trouble.
- Only have a Dark Ritual in hand, with nothing to play it with? No problem, Dark Confidant is in play. Reveal a Thoughtseize (Lose a life, then draw your extra card) That extra card is a Hymn to Tourach. Great! Hand disruption is always good!
Con's:
You reveal a Tombstalker.
I couldn't think about anymore Con's to playing a Dark Confidant, other than revealing Tombstalker and lose 8 life. I know it's a HUGE con, but I don't run 3 Tombstalkers in my build. I do like the thought of having card advantage, but other than Confidant, I can't think of anything else that gives card advantage.
If I'm looking at this wrong please let me know! Do you think running 2 Confidant's is a bad idea? Why? What would you take out for 2 Confidants?
UUU - Go Go Gadget Ninjitsu! (casual)
GGG - Beatdown Elves (casual)
(G/R)(G/R)(G/R) - Progenitus/Elfball (legacy)
BBB - Crucible Pox (legacy)
(B/G)(B/G)(B/G) - Eva Green (legacy)
Visit Maelstrom Graphics for awesome signatures and avatars
Well, here's my current decklist:
3x Marsh Flats
4x Wasteland
4x Verdant Catacombs
4x Bayou
5x Swamp
3x Tombstalker
3x Nantuko Shade
4x Vampire Nighthawk
4x Tarmogoyf
2x Duress
2x Maelstrom Pulse
4x Smother
4x Sinkhole
4x Dark Ritual
4x Thoughtseize
4x Hymn To Tourach
I'm planning on fitting 2 Dark Confidant in there, but don't know what to take out. I'm thinking about either 1 Duress and 1 Smother. OR 2 Gatekeeper. I'm not sure yet.
Any other thoughts?
UUU - Go Go Gadget Ninjitsu! (casual)
GGG - Beatdown Elves (casual)
(G/R)(G/R)(G/R) - Progenitus/Elfball (legacy)
BBB - Crucible Pox (legacy)
(B/G)(B/G)(B/G) - Eva Green (legacy)
Visit Maelstrom Graphics for awesome signatures and avatars
Good point. Has anyone ever thought about Phyrexian Arena?
UUU - Go Go Gadget Ninjitsu! (casual)
GGG - Beatdown Elves (casual)
(G/R)(G/R)(G/R) - Progenitus/Elfball (legacy)
BBB - Crucible Pox (legacy)
(B/G)(B/G)(B/G) - Eva Green (legacy)
Visit Maelstrom Graphics for awesome signatures and avatars
gotchya
Please add more content to your posts. Spam warning issued. - Nai
UUU - Go Go Gadget Ninjitsu! (casual)
GGG - Beatdown Elves (casual)
(G/R)(G/R)(G/R) - Progenitus/Elfball (legacy)
BBB - Crucible Pox (legacy)
(B/G)(B/G)(B/G) - Eva Green (legacy)
Visit Maelstrom Graphics for awesome signatures and avatars
with your given list, to fit 2 bobs, personally i would take out one nighthawk and one pulse. i love the hawks, but 4 seems kinda slow as they're not swinging for much every turn. pulse while versitile, is slow as well. if you're slowing yourself down even further by playing bob (not a threat but does draw you into them), i'd like to actualy draw a threat and not another slow card. make sense? if not, i'm opperating on very little sleep at the moment.
@ Chiccada-
if that land's type was "swamp" so that we could fetch it out i would play it in a heart beat. as it stands, i wouldn't play it unless it was for a small meta that i knew had lots of ichorid, loam and the sort. because you're right, cipt really sucks when it's one of the lands in your opening hand.
about arena-
i agree that it's a bad idea for many of the reasons stated.
It would serve the same as bob and top in one card.
The new land is slow and leyline is still the best call.
I think the only card worth a try for us in the new set is Death's Shadow.