If any deck plays a 1-mana spell on turn 2 because they think you have Daze, they are losing tempo. They are leaving one of their resources unused which could have been used otherwise, which is a loss of tempo by definition.
So if you had the choice you would not use Polluted Delta? What fetch would you choose instead and why?
And as a sidenote, if you have a Polluted Delta and you wanted to Daze with a blue deck here's what you would do: crack the fetch, get a blue land, **tap for a blue mana**, then return the blue land to your hand and play Daze. This is a way to protect your Daze from your opponent's Daze. So even if you were correct in saying that every deck besides Zoo, Burn, and Affinity had Daze to back up their turn 2 play, it wouldn't even matter in the situation that we are discussing.
No offense, but cracking a Fetch while you know your opponent has a Blue open and is indeed playing Blue is not the wisest idea, so I don't know why you would do that in the first place.
Besides people, it's much easier to try and bluff playing ANT with turn 1 Delta into basic Swamp.
No offense, but cracking a Fetch while you know your opponent has a Blue open and is indeed playing Blue is not the wisest idea, so I don't know why you would do that in the first place.
Besides people, it's much easier to try and bluff playing ANT with turn 1 Delta into basic Swamp.
I reread my post, and I never said anything about cracking a fetch when your opponent has a blue open... Plus you're going to be much better off bluffing ANT by cracking a Polluted Delta for a swamp than by cracking a Marsh Flats for a swamp.
If you would like to respond, respond to these statements: "If any deck plays a 1-mana spell on turn 2 because they think you have Daze, they are losing tempo. They are leaving one of their resources unused which could have been used otherwise, which is a loss of tempo by definition." If you agree with that, then the point is settled. I don't really think there is any way to disagree with it. You said earlier that people will occassionally play a 1-mana spell on turn 2 if they think you have a Daze.
And also:
"So if you had the choice, you would not use Polluted Delta? What fetch would you choose instead and why?"
This discussion isn't about when to crack a fetch vs. blue decks. It's about Polluted Delta having a slight strategic advantage over other fetches. I don't really have any other points, so I will leave it be after this. I just think that if you wanted to argue against Polluted Delta, you should have a reason why something else is better.
If you would like to respond, respond to these statements: "If any deck plays a 1-mana spell on turn 2 because they think you have Daze, they are losing tempo. They are leaving one of their resources unused which could have been used otherwise, which is a loss of tempo by definition." If you agree with that, then the point is settled. I don't really think there is any way to disagree with it. You said earlier that people will occassionally play a 1-mana spell on turn 2 if they think you have a Daze.
I think of any number of decks that could play a 1 CC card on turn 2 and not lose tempo, playing around Daze, or Spellsnare, or whatever.
Affinity, Zoo, Goblins, ANT, Fish, Tempo Thresh, Stax.
All those decks have viable turn 2 plays with cards that cost 1 (or in Affinity's case, 0).
How as a Zoo deck lost Tempo if they throw out another Kird Ape or Wild Nacatl instead of Pridemage or Goyf in fear of Daze or Spellsnare?
What about Fish? Throwing out Vial or Cursecatcher?
I'm not arguing the fact that Delta works for Evagreen, because it fetches the lands we want.
What I'm saying is bluffing Daze with a Delta when you have no turn 1 play is not going to get you anywhere against a lot of the field.
A simple Fetch for a Swamp when your opponent does not have Blue open is the best play, whether you seem to believe so or not. And until you can actually prove to me that bluffing a Daze on turn one the draw with no turn 1 play actually provides tempo, well, I think I've just proven my point.
I think of any number of decks that could play a 1 CC card on turn 2 and not lose tempo, playing around Daze, or Spellsnare, or whatever.
Affinity, Zoo, Goblins, ANT, Fish, Tempo Thresh, Stax.
All those decks have viable turn 2 plays with cards that cost 1 (or in Affinity's case, 0).
How as a Zoo deck lost Tempo if they throw out another Kird Ape or Wild Nacatl instead of Pridemage or Goyf in fear of Daze or Spellsnare?
What about Fish? Throwing out Vial or Cursecatcher?
I'm not arguing the fact that Delta works for Evagreen, because it fetches the lands we want.
What I'm saying is bluffing Daze with a Delta when you have no turn 1 play is not going to get you anywhere against a lot of the field.
A simple Fetch for a Swamp when your opponent does not have Blue open is the best play, whether you seem to believe so or not. And until you can actually prove to me that bluffing a Daze on turn one the draw with no turn 1 play actually provides tempo, well, I think I've just proven my point.
The fact that you said 'a lot of the field' and not 'all of the field' proves my point exactly. And Playing a single Kird Ape instead of a Tarmogoyf on turn 2 because they fear a Daze is the definition of lost tempo. It doesn't matter if you think Kird Ape is still an effective play, because holding back a Tarmogoyf and wasting your resource (one mana) for a turn is lost tempo for your opponent at its finest.
Some people play the game where they make a blanket statement like 'I will always crack a fetch the second I play it if my opponent has no blue open', and this mindset will cause you to lose many games and overlook possible plays. This reaches for beyond our debate. Every situation in magic is different, and there is always room for exploring options. Never make blanket statements like this!
Never heard of Gatekeeper of Malakir? He is bomb against
Reanimator.
Nighthawk is awesome here too. They can both kill anything.
You can counter our discard and disruption, but then we still have hippy who does keep the discard pressure going on, next to Gatekeeper/Nighthawk (Pulse). I can't see why it would be difficult for Eva Green to win, but I think it depends a lot on the build.
In my dream, the world had suffered a terrible disaster. A black haze shut out the sun, and the darkness was alive with the moans and screams of wounded people. Suddenly, a small light glowed. A candle flickered into life, symbol of hope for millions. A single tiny candle, shining in the ugly dark. I laughed and blew it out.
Many thanks to HotP Studios. Special thanks to DNC for this great sig.
I'd like to chime in on this one. I agree he doesn't do anything against Iona, but he does serve a purpose against other decks. Removal and a 2/2 beater? I'll take it. I'm not saying he's the best creature in the deck, but I do enjoy having him in there as a 2 count. No more than that though. I've never had the oppurtunity to play against a reanimator deck, at least not once that packs a Iona, so I can't really speak from experience, but he's certaintly not a dead card against other decks.
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Decks
UUU - Go Go Gadget Ninjitsu! (casual) GGG - Beatdown Elves (casual) (G/R)(G/R)(G/R) - Progenitus/Elfball (legacy) BBB - Crucible Pox (legacy) (B/G)(B/G)(B/G) - Eva Green (legacy)
has anyone done some real testing with abyssal prosecutor yet?
i finaly got my playset.
but i also finaly got my set of entombs.
don't know if i want to play the prosecutor list i posted or an animator.
opinions?
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1.) Anyone who thinks cancel is viable should be shot. in the face. with a hammer.
2.) You misunderstand, what I was suggesting was the total exclusion of Spellstutter Sprite, because it just isnt that good anymore.
3.) Understand, Dredge is not really a Magic: The Gathering deck. When a card is playable in it, it doesn't mean it's a tournament playable card. It means it's playable in whatever crazy fantasy world that Dredge operates in.
I'd like to chime in on this one. I agree he doesn't do anything against Iona, but he does serve a purpose against other decks. Removal and a 2/2 beater? I'll take it. I'm not saying he's the best creature in the deck, but I do enjoy having him in there as a 2 count. No more than that though. I've never had the oppurtunity to play against a reanimator deck, at least not once that packs a Iona, so I can't really speak from experience, but he's certaintly not a dead card against other decks.
As a removal spell he is very expensive, and looks largely unimpressive. Most lists don't even play Smother and that card only costs two, is instant speed, and you can chose which creature dies, while Gatekeeper of Malakir just forces them to kill their weakest creature.
Also, a 2/2 without evasion hasn't been anything to write home about in this format for quite some time now.
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In my dream, the world had suffered a terrible disaster. A black haze shut out the sun, and the darkness was alive with the moans and screams of wounded people. Suddenly, a small light glowed. A candle flickered into life, symbol of hope for millions. A single tiny candle, shining in the ugly dark. I laughed and blew it out.
Many thanks to HotP Studios. Special thanks to DNC for this great sig.
As a removal spell he is very expensive, and looks largely unimpressive. Most lists don't even play Smother and that card only costs two, is instant speed, and you can chose which creature dies, while Gatekeeper of Malakir just forces them to kill their weakest creature.
Also, a 2/2 without evasion hasn't been anything to write home about in this format for quite some time now.
It's no point trying to tell these guys this.
They all seem to want and try and come up with "new tech" when the newest tech in the actual deck is Dark Confidant, a card they're unwilling to play with.
I've kind of just given up on this thread. I know how to pilot the deck very well, I know the core structure, and if you want to win, that will never change.
Persecutor is bad people. The sooner you realize, the better off you are.
They all seem to want and try and come up with "new tech" when the newest tech in the actual deck is Dark Confidant, a card they're unwilling to play with.
I've kind of just given up on this thread. I know how to pilot the deck very well, I know the core structure, and if you want to win, that will never change.
Persecutor is bad people. The sooner you realize, the better off you are.
haha.
1. I'm open to new ideas. I just like to run 2 gatekeepers because early game and against low creature count decks, I have had great success with him. I only run a 2 count of him tho, and I can usually side him out if needed. It's fine that you disagree and feel that you're right. I don't think it's a matter of "right and wrong" tho. I feel it's a matter of opinion and possibly even different meta for stuff like that. But if you want to believe it's a right or wrong situation, that's fine.
2. I have tested with Dark Confidant, actually. I just didn't like paying 8 life for a tombstalker. I found it more hurtful then helpful in this deck. I'm not saying that he's a bad card, but I choose not to run him in my version of this deck. I don't see how that makes me "wrong". I do like the card advantage and I believe he's a great card, but I'd prolly only run him in a mono-black aggro type deck. Just my thoughts on that.
3. That's fine if you've given up on this thread. No one makes you post here.
4. About the Persecuter comment. I don't see anything wrong with trying different ideas. I'm not saying that it's a perfect card for this deck and I personally agree with you, in that it's not a good card for this deck. HOWEVER, I don't agree with you bashing people for trying new things and having a difference in opinion with you.
It's fine that you see things differently, but you need to realize that it's not a matter of "right and wrong" it's a matter of opinion. I personally come on these forums to ask questions and hopefully recieve advice from other people's experience with the cards I may not own. If you want to sit there and tell me my opinion is wrong, that's fine. But I can only encourage you to be open to new ideas. That's all.
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UUU - Go Go Gadget Ninjitsu! (casual) GGG - Beatdown Elves (casual) (G/R)(G/R)(G/R) - Progenitus/Elfball (legacy) BBB - Crucible Pox (legacy) (B/G)(B/G)(B/G) - Eva Green (legacy)
(gatekeeper) is very expensive, and looks largely unimpressive. Most lists don't even play Smother and that card only costs two, is instant speed, and you can chose which creature dies, while Gatekeeper of Malakir just forces them to kill their weakest creature. Also, a 2/2 without evasion hasn't been anything to write home about in this format for quite some time now.
to begin with, for the most part I agree with you. but he IS card advantage; everyone at the source is in love with the guy, and I've seen several decks on deckcheck running him. don't count him out completely just yet.
They all seem to want and try and come up with "new tech"
what exactly do you think these boards are for? if no one ever tried "new tech", then innovation would truly be dead, and the format and game would become stagnant and die- we'd be playing the same rusty old decks forever.
when the newest tech in the actual deck is Dark Confidant, a card they're unwilling to play with.
first, I have played with bob in this deck. second, how is that new tech? you saw a list a long time ago that ran 2 bobs, and have been preaching about it ever since. saying it's good does not make it so. I'm NOT saying you're wrong for playing it. what I will say is this....
many of us have tried it, and found what the designers of the deck found (as stated on the very first page/post of this thread)... he's too slow and is not a threat. to take advantage of the disruption package/tempo gained, you need to lay a threat right after; not something that could potentially lead to a threat.
I've kind of just given up on this thread.
no one makes you post, and no one is telling you not to. as a fellow eva green player, I value your opinions when backed by logical reasoning and/or testing.
I know how to pilot the deck very well, I know the core structure, and if you want to win, that will never change.
"never," is not a word to be thrown around lightly. and there's always more than one way to win.
Persecutor is bad people. The sooner you realize, the better off you are.
and you know this how, through your extensive play testing? I highly doubt it- seems as though you're opposed to testing of any sort, and you only play eva green occasionally as a meta choice. I'm not saying with 100% certainty that prosecutor is the new stalker. but eva is my primary deck, and I have been testing; prosecutor IS a house. when I'm settled on a best list and have a lot of tournament results/reports, I'll post them here.
1.) Anyone who thinks cancel is viable should be shot. in the face. with a hammer.
2.) You misunderstand, what I was suggesting was the total exclusion of Spellstutter Sprite, because it just isnt that good anymore.
3.) Understand, Dredge is not really a Magic: The Gathering deck. When a card is playable in it, it doesn't mean it's a tournament playable card. It means it's playable in whatever crazy fantasy world that Dredge operates in.
They all seem to want and try and come up with "new tech" when the newest tech in the actual deck is Dark Confidant, a card they're unwilling to play with.
Actually, I'm not sold on Dark Confidant either. It is true that the deck needs some form of card advantage after you're out of steam and start playing Top Deck Magic. However, I feel he imposes heavy design constraints on the deck.
The prime example of this would probably be Tombstalker, but I would also like to add that playing him also influences what removal suite you are playing maindeck.
Most of the lists I've seen with Bob play some combination of Smother, Diabolic Edict and even Gatekeeper of Malakir as their dedicated removal cards with a number of Maelstrom Pulse's added for good measure. In what, think you will agree, is a very Goyf-centric format most of these spells, if not all of them, are outclassed by Snuff Out in that regard.
Personally, I think that the reasoning behind this is kind of obvious but I will go into detail about it if it can help the subject along, but the condensed version would be that playing any number of Dark Confidants reduces the number of Snuff Outs I can reasonably play in my deck and that is not something I can really get behind.
Because I don't play Dark Confidant I always mulligan aggressively with this deck, looking for good early plays relevant to the matchup or are just plain ruthless if I'm facing an unknown opponent.
If you are playing him, and I imagine you are otherwise why bring it up, how has he been working for you and how has he influenced the rest of your list?
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In my dream, the world had suffered a terrible disaster. A black haze shut out the sun, and the darkness was alive with the moans and screams of wounded people. Suddenly, a small light glowed. A candle flickered into life, symbol of hope for millions. A single tiny candle, shining in the ugly dark. I laughed and blew it out.
Many thanks to HotP Studios. Special thanks to DNC for this great sig.
I played Legacy win-a-box this weekend and won a box with this deck! I went 2-0 against my 3 opponents:
Dream Halls
NO Bant
B/w Deadguy
I was very pleased with the performance of the deck. My Land Destruction Package definitely played as the MVP in this mini-tournament. I won via LD in 1 game against Deadguy, 1 game against Bant, and both games against Dreams Halls. I know it's not for everyone, but my 4-of Vindicate really seemed to do the trick!
I played Legacy win-a-box this weekend and won a box with this deck! I went 2-0 against my 3 opponents:
Dream Halls
NO Bant
B/w Deadguy
I was very pleased with the performance of the deck. My Land Destruction Package definitely played as the MVP in this mini-tournament. I won via LD in 1 game against Deadguy, 1 game against Bant, and both games against Dreams Halls. I know it's not for everyone, but my 4-of Vindicate really seemed to do the trick!
Was the Deadguy not also running LD? or did you just get the nuts draw keeping him off from his land?
Was the Deadguy not also running LD? or did you just get the nuts draw keeping him off from his land?
I got better draws for sure in game 1. He just wasn't able to play anything because I got double Sinkhole and then beat face with Stalker. I'm not sure if he was running Sinkholes, as he never saw them against me. He played a Tidehollow Sculler to steal my Goyf for a while game 2, but I killed it about 2 turns later. That card is not very good against me since I was packing a relatively high amount of removal.
I've been using the following. Crop rotation allows for a good toolbox against various matchups. Usually it fetches Wasteland. I was hoping for feedback. I'm new at posting, so sorry if this isn't proper.
I've been using the following. Crop rotation allows for a good toolbox against various matchups. Usually it fetches Wasteland. I was hoping for feedback. I'm new at posting, so sorry if this isn't proper.
Virtue's Ruin, is probably more of a sideboard card. I've always liked Crop Rotation, but I don't think it's for this type of deck. How has the results been so far?
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Decks
UUU - Go Go Gadget Ninjitsu! (casual) GGG - Beatdown Elves (casual) (G/R)(G/R)(G/R) - Progenitus/Elfball (legacy) BBB - Crucible Pox (legacy) (B/G)(B/G)(B/G) - Eva Green (legacy)
You're probably right about Virtue's Ruin. I side it out a lot of games. It's just that i really like having a main deck answer to decks abusing Natural Order and or Show and Tell. It used to be in the sideboard. Maybe switch with the Ostracize.
The Crop Rotation have been working great. It provides an answer to reanimator and survival decks. I've been seeing a lot of them. Not to mention other graveyard strategies.
Really have to think about the virtues ruin problem...
You're probably right about Virtue's Ruin. I side it out a lot of games. It's just that i really like having a main deck answer to decks abusing Natural Order and or Show and Tell. It used to be in the sideboard. Maybe switch with the Ostracize.
The Crop Rotation have been working great. It provides an answer to reanimator and survival decks. I've been seeing a lot of them. Not to mention other graveyard strategies.
Really have to think about the virtues ruin problem...
if you're haveing a problem vs natural order (progenitus) and reanimator, you could use diabolic edict.
or if you really like the effect of virtue's ruin, I would run perish.. it's great against progenitus, thresh, bant..
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1.) Anyone who thinks cancel is viable should be shot. in the face. with a hammer.
2.) You misunderstand, what I was suggesting was the total exclusion of Spellstutter Sprite, because it just isnt that good anymore.
3.) Understand, Dredge is not really a Magic: The Gathering deck. When a card is playable in it, it doesn't mean it's a tournament playable card. It means it's playable in whatever crazy fantasy world that Dredge operates in.
I play Snuff Out as a 2-off in conjunction with a 3-off Gatekeeper. I really like Gatekeeper and the synergy it has with Snuff Out and the deck in general
??? what synergy?
i like gatekeeper too, but not in "classic eva", as you put it. too slow, where as snuff out is fast. don't get me wrong, i REALLY like gatekeeper. i just think that the deck leans more toward rock then. i have tried the team america tech- 3 snuff out + 1 smother, that seems pretty nice.
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1.) Anyone who thinks cancel is viable should be shot. in the face. with a hammer.
2.) You misunderstand, what I was suggesting was the total exclusion of Spellstutter Sprite, because it just isnt that good anymore.
3.) Understand, Dredge is not really a Magic: The Gathering deck. When a card is playable in it, it doesn't mean it's a tournament playable card. It means it's playable in whatever crazy fantasy world that Dredge operates in.
Sometimes you have to choose between Gatekeeper or Hippy and in many cases Gatekeeper can be the better play first, depending on what you see.
I'd have to agree with this (at least from my experience playtesting). I replaced hippy with Gatekeeper awhile back. My favorite first 3 turns consist of:
Turn 1: Swamp, Dark Ritual, Thoughtseize, Hymn to Tourach, pass turn.
Turn 2: Swamp, Sinkhole, pass turn
Turn 3: Wasteland, (sac it), Dark Ritual, play Gatekeeper paying the kicker and make them sac their creature.
By doing this, chances are (at least from my experience), you've cleared their field (both creature AND land), destroyed their hand and have gained the advantage and now have a 2/2 creature in play.
Now I know this doesn't always happen, but man is it amazing when it does. Either way, Gatekeeper has served me well in early game and even mid-game. I only run 2 copies in my deck, but I have never been dissapointed.
Forgive me if this isn't a good way to play the deck, but I'm still somewhat of a noob when it comes to piloting this deck.
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Decks
UUU - Go Go Gadget Ninjitsu! (casual) GGG - Beatdown Elves (casual) (G/R)(G/R)(G/R) - Progenitus/Elfball (legacy) BBB - Crucible Pox (legacy) (B/G)(B/G)(B/G) - Eva Green (legacy)
Popeye,
After your 1-2 cmc disruption Gatekeeper and Snuff Out are able to kill 2 creatures at the same time for only 3 mana; you've cleaned the board and you're in favor again because of Gatekeeper.
I play Vesper Green without Sinkholes and currently without Snuff Outs;
I'm not tring to be offensive, but why are you talking about something you don't play?
more often than not, after your 1-2 cmc disruption, you won't need to remove two creatures.
so instead of haveing a mear 2/2, you could have a real threat.
maybe in a meta full of goblins, zoo, merfs.. i don't think it's really needed against goblins. zoo is just going to sac their smallest then kill your 2/2 with a bigger creature or a bolt, and if merfs let it resolve- they'll sac a cursecatcher (or other worthless creature) and run over your 2/2 with bigger merfs.
I only see gatekeeper as being truly good against things like progenitus, animator, thresh, team america, ect.. but those are a small part of the field compared to everything else.
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1.) Anyone who thinks cancel is viable should be shot. in the face. with a hammer.
2.) You misunderstand, what I was suggesting was the total exclusion of Spellstutter Sprite, because it just isnt that good anymore.
3.) Understand, Dredge is not really a Magic: The Gathering deck. When a card is playable in it, it doesn't mean it's a tournament playable card. It means it's playable in whatever crazy fantasy world that Dredge operates in.
I only see gatekeeper as being truly good against things like progenitus, animator, thresh, team america, ect.. but those are a small part of the field compared to everything else.
I know I play Gatekeeper as a 2 -count, but that's the reason. He IS only a real threat against certain decks, which is why he is sided out on certain games. I do like him main deck though, because depending upon when he shows up it could be a huge help.
But as I am always trying to be open to new ideas, what would you suggest I replace him with if I were to take him out of main deck. I don't know how far back my current deck list is but here it is:
well, if you enjoy playing with him, then continue to do so. maybe you do see alot of the decks i mentioned, in which case i suppose he would shine. i was about to say i'd never go into a a big event with him, but after madrid, reanimator might get huge, so he'd be great.
either way i wouldn't replace snuff outs with gatekeepers.
i've asked you before, and i'll beg you again... PLEASE try snuff out.. it's so much better than smother.
try 3 snuffout/1 smother. or 3 snuff out/1 gastly demise.
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1.) Anyone who thinks cancel is viable should be shot. in the face. with a hammer.
2.) You misunderstand, what I was suggesting was the total exclusion of Spellstutter Sprite, because it just isnt that good anymore.
3.) Understand, Dredge is not really a Magic: The Gathering deck. When a card is playable in it, it doesn't mean it's a tournament playable card. It means it's playable in whatever crazy fantasy world that Dredge operates in.
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No offense, but cracking a Fetch while you know your opponent has a Blue open and is indeed playing Blue is not the wisest idea, so I don't know why you would do that in the first place.
Besides people, it's much easier to try and bluff playing ANT with turn 1 Delta into basic Swamp.
Thanks to Heroes of the Plane Studios for the amazing sig.
NO RUG: Primer
Tempo Thresh: Primer
I reread my post, and I never said anything about cracking a fetch when your opponent has a blue open... Plus you're going to be much better off bluffing ANT by cracking a Polluted Delta for a swamp than by cracking a Marsh Flats for a swamp.
If you would like to respond, respond to these statements: "If any deck plays a 1-mana spell on turn 2 because they think you have Daze, they are losing tempo. They are leaving one of their resources unused which could have been used otherwise, which is a loss of tempo by definition." If you agree with that, then the point is settled. I don't really think there is any way to disagree with it. You said earlier that people will occassionally play a 1-mana spell on turn 2 if they think you have a Daze.
And also:
"So if you had the choice, you would not use Polluted Delta? What fetch would you choose instead and why?"
This discussion isn't about when to crack a fetch vs. blue decks. It's about Polluted Delta having a slight strategic advantage over other fetches. I don't really have any other points, so I will leave it be after this. I just think that if you wanted to argue against Polluted Delta, you should have a reason why something else is better.
I think of any number of decks that could play a 1 CC card on turn 2 and not lose tempo, playing around Daze, or Spellsnare, or whatever.
Affinity, Zoo, Goblins, ANT, Fish, Tempo Thresh, Stax.
All those decks have viable turn 2 plays with cards that cost 1 (or in Affinity's case, 0).
How as a Zoo deck lost Tempo if they throw out another Kird Ape or Wild Nacatl instead of Pridemage or Goyf in fear of Daze or Spellsnare?
What about Fish? Throwing out Vial or Cursecatcher?
I'm not arguing the fact that Delta works for Evagreen, because it fetches the lands we want.
What I'm saying is bluffing Daze with a Delta when you have no turn 1 play is not going to get you anywhere against a lot of the field.
A simple Fetch for a Swamp when your opponent does not have Blue open is the best play, whether you seem to believe so or not. And until you can actually prove to me that bluffing a Daze on turn one the draw with no turn 1 play actually provides tempo, well, I think I've just proven my point.
Thanks to Heroes of the Plane Studios for the amazing sig.
NO RUG: Primer
Tempo Thresh: Primer
The fact that you said 'a lot of the field' and not 'all of the field' proves my point exactly. And Playing a single Kird Ape instead of a Tarmogoyf on turn 2 because they fear a Daze is the definition of lost tempo. It doesn't matter if you think Kird Ape is still an effective play, because holding back a Tarmogoyf and wasting your resource (one mana) for a turn is lost tempo for your opponent at its finest.
Some people play the game where they make a blanket statement like 'I will always crack a fetch the second I play it if my opponent has no blue open', and this mindset will cause you to lose many games and overlook possible plays. This reaches for beyond our debate. Every situation in magic is different, and there is always room for exploring options. Never make blanket statements like this!
Gatekeeper of Malakir doesn't do squat against Iona, Shield of Emeria. Come to think of it, he doesn't look like he's doing all that much against other decks either.
Many thanks to HotP Studios. Special thanks to DNC for this great sig.
I'd like to chime in on this one. I agree he doesn't do anything against Iona, but he does serve a purpose against other decks. Removal and a 2/2 beater? I'll take it. I'm not saying he's the best creature in the deck, but I do enjoy having him in there as a 2 count. No more than that though. I've never had the oppurtunity to play against a reanimator deck, at least not once that packs a Iona, so I can't really speak from experience, but he's certaintly not a dead card against other decks.
UUU - Go Go Gadget Ninjitsu! (casual)
GGG - Beatdown Elves (casual)
(G/R)(G/R)(G/R) - Progenitus/Elfball (legacy)
BBB - Crucible Pox (legacy)
(B/G)(B/G)(B/G) - Eva Green (legacy)
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i finaly got my playset.
but i also finaly got my set of entombs.
don't know if i want to play the prosecutor list i posted or an animator.
opinions?
a reanimation deck perhaps?
As a removal spell he is very expensive, and looks largely unimpressive. Most lists don't even play Smother and that card only costs two, is instant speed, and you can chose which creature dies, while Gatekeeper of Malakir just forces them to kill their weakest creature.
Also, a 2/2 without evasion hasn't been anything to write home about in this format for quite some time now.
Many thanks to HotP Studios. Special thanks to DNC for this great sig.
It's no point trying to tell these guys this.
They all seem to want and try and come up with "new tech" when the newest tech in the actual deck is Dark Confidant, a card they're unwilling to play with.
I've kind of just given up on this thread. I know how to pilot the deck very well, I know the core structure, and if you want to win, that will never change.
Persecutor is bad people. The sooner you realize, the better off you are.
Thanks to Heroes of the Plane Studios for the amazing sig.
NO RUG: Primer
Tempo Thresh: Primer
haha.
1. I'm open to new ideas. I just like to run 2 gatekeepers because early game and against low creature count decks, I have had great success with him. I only run a 2 count of him tho, and I can usually side him out if needed. It's fine that you disagree and feel that you're right. I don't think it's a matter of "right and wrong" tho. I feel it's a matter of opinion and possibly even different meta for stuff like that. But if you want to believe it's a right or wrong situation, that's fine.
2. I have tested with Dark Confidant, actually. I just didn't like paying 8 life for a tombstalker. I found it more hurtful then helpful in this deck. I'm not saying that he's a bad card, but I choose not to run him in my version of this deck. I don't see how that makes me "wrong". I do like the card advantage and I believe he's a great card, but I'd prolly only run him in a mono-black aggro type deck. Just my thoughts on that.
3. That's fine if you've given up on this thread. No one makes you post here.
4. About the Persecuter comment. I don't see anything wrong with trying different ideas. I'm not saying that it's a perfect card for this deck and I personally agree with you, in that it's not a good card for this deck. HOWEVER, I don't agree with you bashing people for trying new things and having a difference in opinion with you.
It's fine that you see things differently, but you need to realize that it's not a matter of "right and wrong" it's a matter of opinion. I personally come on these forums to ask questions and hopefully recieve advice from other people's experience with the cards I may not own. If you want to sit there and tell me my opinion is wrong, that's fine. But I can only encourage you to be open to new ideas. That's all.
UUU - Go Go Gadget Ninjitsu! (casual)
GGG - Beatdown Elves (casual)
(G/R)(G/R)(G/R) - Progenitus/Elfball (legacy)
BBB - Crucible Pox (legacy)
(B/G)(B/G)(B/G) - Eva Green (legacy)
Visit Maelstrom Graphics for awesome signatures and avatars
Actually, I'm not sold on Dark Confidant either. It is true that the deck needs some form of card advantage after you're out of steam and start playing Top Deck Magic. However, I feel he imposes heavy design constraints on the deck.
The prime example of this would probably be Tombstalker, but I would also like to add that playing him also influences what removal suite you are playing maindeck.
Most of the lists I've seen with Bob play some combination of Smother, Diabolic Edict and even Gatekeeper of Malakir as their dedicated removal cards with a number of Maelstrom Pulse's added for good measure. In what, think you will agree, is a very Goyf-centric format most of these spells, if not all of them, are outclassed by Snuff Out in that regard.
Personally, I think that the reasoning behind this is kind of obvious but I will go into detail about it if it can help the subject along, but the condensed version would be that playing any number of Dark Confidants reduces the number of Snuff Outs I can reasonably play in my deck and that is not something I can really get behind.
Because I don't play Dark Confidant I always mulligan aggressively with this deck, looking for good early plays relevant to the matchup or are just plain ruthless if I'm facing an unknown opponent.
If you are playing him, and I imagine you are otherwise why bring it up, how has he been working for you and how has he influenced the rest of your list?
Many thanks to HotP Studios. Special thanks to DNC for this great sig.
Dream Halls
NO Bant
B/w Deadguy
I was very pleased with the performance of the deck. My Land Destruction Package definitely played as the MVP in this mini-tournament. I won via LD in 1 game against Deadguy, 1 game against Bant, and both games against Dreams Halls. I know it's not for everyone, but my 4-of Vindicate really seemed to do the trick!
Was the Deadguy not also running LD? or did you just get the nuts draw keeping him off from his land?
EDH
WBG Karador's Sepulcher GBW
I got better draws for sure in game 1. He just wasn't able to play anything because I got double Sinkhole and then beat face with Stalker. I'm not sure if he was running Sinkholes, as he never saw them against me. He played a Tidehollow Sculler to steal my Goyf for a while game 2, but I killed it about 2 turns later. That card is not very good against me since I was packing a relatively high amount of removal.
Virtue's Ruin, is probably more of a sideboard card. I've always liked Crop Rotation, but I don't think it's for this type of deck. How has the results been so far?
UUU - Go Go Gadget Ninjitsu! (casual)
GGG - Beatdown Elves (casual)
(G/R)(G/R)(G/R) - Progenitus/Elfball (legacy)
BBB - Crucible Pox (legacy)
(B/G)(B/G)(B/G) - Eva Green (legacy)
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The Crop Rotation have been working great. It provides an answer to reanimator and survival decks. I've been seeing a lot of them. Not to mention other graveyard strategies.
Really have to think about the virtues ruin problem...
if you're haveing a problem vs natural order (progenitus) and reanimator, you could use diabolic edict.
or if you really like the effect of virtue's ruin, I would run perish.. it's great against progenitus, thresh, bant..
??? what synergy?
i like gatekeeper too, but not in "classic eva", as you put it. too slow, where as snuff out is fast. don't get me wrong, i REALLY like gatekeeper. i just think that the deck leans more toward rock then. i have tried the team america tech- 3 snuff out + 1 smother, that seems pretty nice.
I'd have to agree with this (at least from my experience playtesting). I replaced hippy with Gatekeeper awhile back. My favorite first 3 turns consist of:
Turn 1: Swamp, Dark Ritual, Thoughtseize, Hymn to Tourach, pass turn.
Turn 2: Swamp, Sinkhole, pass turn
Turn 3: Wasteland, (sac it), Dark Ritual, play Gatekeeper paying the kicker and make them sac their creature.
By doing this, chances are (at least from my experience), you've cleared their field (both creature AND land), destroyed their hand and have gained the advantage and now have a 2/2 creature in play.
Now I know this doesn't always happen, but man is it amazing when it does. Either way, Gatekeeper has served me well in early game and even mid-game. I only run 2 copies in my deck, but I have never been dissapointed.
Forgive me if this isn't a good way to play the deck, but I'm still somewhat of a noob when it comes to piloting this deck.
UUU - Go Go Gadget Ninjitsu! (casual)
GGG - Beatdown Elves (casual)
(G/R)(G/R)(G/R) - Progenitus/Elfball (legacy)
BBB - Crucible Pox (legacy)
(B/G)(B/G)(B/G) - Eva Green (legacy)
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I'm not tring to be offensive, but why are you talking about something you don't play?
more often than not, after your 1-2 cmc disruption, you won't need to remove two creatures.
so instead of haveing a mear 2/2, you could have a real threat.
maybe in a meta full of goblins, zoo, merfs.. i don't think it's really needed against goblins. zoo is just going to sac their smallest then kill your 2/2 with a bigger creature or a bolt, and if merfs let it resolve- they'll sac a cursecatcher (or other worthless creature) and run over your 2/2 with bigger merfs.
I only see gatekeeper as being truly good against things like progenitus, animator, thresh, team america, ect.. but those are a small part of the field compared to everything else.
I know I play Gatekeeper as a 2 -count, but that's the reason. He IS only a real threat against certain decks, which is why he is sided out on certain games. I do like him main deck though, because depending upon when he shows up it could be a huge help.
But as I am always trying to be open to new ideas, what would you suggest I replace him with if I were to take him out of main deck. I don't know how far back my current deck list is but here it is:
3x Marsh Flats
4x Wasteland
4x Verdant Catacombs
4x Bayou
5x Swamp
2x Gatekeeper of Malakir
3x Tombstalker
3x Nantuko Shade
4x Vampire Nighthawk
4x Tarmogoyf
2x Duress
2x Maelstrom Pulse
3x Smother
4x Sinkhole
4x Dark Ritual
4x Thoughtseize
4x Hymn To Tourach
1x Duress
3x Pithing Needle
3x Extirpate
4x Engineered Plague
4x Leyline of the Void
UUU - Go Go Gadget Ninjitsu! (casual)
GGG - Beatdown Elves (casual)
(G/R)(G/R)(G/R) - Progenitus/Elfball (legacy)
BBB - Crucible Pox (legacy)
(B/G)(B/G)(B/G) - Eva Green (legacy)
Visit Maelstrom Graphics for awesome signatures and avatars
either way i wouldn't replace snuff outs with gatekeepers.
i've asked you before, and i'll beg you again... PLEASE try snuff out.. it's so much better than smother.
try 3 snuffout/1 smother. or 3 snuff out/1 gastly demise.