I have been tweaking my Vintage deck to Legacy limitations and was wondering if anyone could give me some tips to refine my deck and possible metagame info that would be beneficial to me. I haven't played in a Legacy tourny yet, so any tips would be greatly appreciated.
Get freebee cards into hand, cast False Cure, cast freebee cards (Skyshroud Cutter and Reverent Silence) for no mana, opponent loses life instead of gaining it. If the opponent is still alive, attack with Skyshroud Cutters. Use Sylvan Library/Dark Confidant to get cards fast. Don't worry about your own life total much. Kavu Predator still gets counters from life gain so you can attack to deal twice as much (for each opponent in the game!).
Possible but highly unlikely first turn kill #1: Bayou (or Overgrown Tomb), Dark Ritual, False Cure, drop all freebee cards (any combination of 4 Skyshroud Cutters/Reverent Silence) for kill.
Possible but highly unlikely first turn kill #2: Drop a bayou, Lotus Petal, dark ritual, two False Cure, drop freebee cards (either two cutters, two silences, one cutter and one silence, one cutter and one invigorate).
Possible second turn kill #1: Drop a bayou or overgrown tomb, dark ritual, Doomsday for 4 Skyshroud Cutters or 4 Reverent Silences with a Desperate Research or Dark Ritual (whichever you don't have in hand, or a bayou or overgrown tomb if you have no second land in hand but have the research & ritual) as the top card. Next turn drop a bayou or overgrown tomb, dark ritual, desperate research (for cutters or silence), false cure, 4 cutters or 4 silences for kill.
Possible second turn kill #2: Drop a bayou (or overgrown tomb), drop lotus petal (or Elvish Spirit Guide), Kavu Predator. Then drop another bayou or overgrown tomb, false cure, any two freebee cards (cutter, silence, invigorate), attack.
I rarely need more than 1-2 land at any time. Most of the other cards in the deck are for speeding up the deck and for problems the opponent may create. (just a lil' note for casual players... this combo works with multiplayer with ridiculous outcomes.)
Fastest kill to date: turn 3.
Biggest kill to date: 7 players at once.
I'm going to playtest these cards in the deck to see how they do:
Wall of Blossoms (fast defense/card drawing)
Seal of Doom or Phthisis (players will be less likely to put out creatures, delaying so I can get combo cards without taking too much damage)
Seal of Primordium (players will be less likely to play good artifacts and enchantments, delaying so I can get what I need out without disruption from them)
Chalice of the Void for 0 mana. (takes care of pesky lotus and moxes and such)
Null Rod (for all sorts of nasty artifacts.)
Commune with Nature (to find more cutters and critters)
Snuff Out (more freebee cards as all lands are swamps, critter killer)
General revisions:
I'm contemplating swapping two of the search lands for two more land grants to save deck cost and the 1 life.
Planar Chaos revisions:
Psychological Warfare. Removed some mass removal (Innocent Blood, Abyssal Gatekeeper) in favor of Chainer's Edict and Kavu Predator and replaced Night's Whisper, Phyrexian Arena, and Infernal Tutor with Dark Confidant (as it speeds up draw each turn and can attack) to try to disguise the deck as a sort of weenie deck to distract opponents while I get my combo cards for the mass kill.
Future Sight revisions:
I plan to try out Summoner's Pact to retrieve Skyshroud Cutters for the win condition. This will allow me to effectively have 8 copies of Skyshroud Cutters. I'm still trying to decide what to side out for them. Perhaps the invigorates.
Things I'm worried about:
Force of Will, Disrupt, Force Spike, Spell Snare, Disrupting Shoal (counterspells are the reason for Duress and Suppress and City of Solitude and dosan. Interestingly enough, as long as they don't counter false cure, the combo still works as it is part of the cost of the spell and not an effect created by the spell itself.)
Summoners Pact seems useful here, too, since it lets you get half your win conditions for free (especially good if you're just going to win right there). Since this is Legacy, I would suggest dropping the Mox Dialog and just run 4x Lotus Petal, seems more useful in this deck (as you have less lands, Diamond is less useful and harder to cast).
EDIT: Which was in the original list (hmm, pays to read, which I didn't...completely), seems like Twigs list could use it too just as well.
Since this is Legacy, I would suggest dropping the Mox Dialog and just run 4x Lotus Petal, seems more useful in this deck (as you have less lands, Diamond is less useful and harder to cast).
Oooh good eye, I didn't even realize that lotus petal isn't restricted in this format. Yeah I'll just swap the mox out for another petal then.
Another possible shell is Bg Rock with Kavu Predator as a 2-drop beater. You get to run Dark Confidant, Xantid Swarm (much better than Dosan as it only costs G), possibly some accelerants and Eternal Witness, maybe Survival of the Fittest and definitely Duress and Cabal Therapy. Perhaps some other draw-effects too. This shell looks pretty good, but the combo is a bit unwieldy here. You can function off less lands than traditional Rock though.
Well I prefer to keep the False Cure as the main combo, the survival wouldn't be overly conducive as I really want to hold onto the critters as long as possible until the combo is ready. And the only problem with the xantid swarm is I have to attack first so it doesn't protect me from trying to pull off the combo on the opponent's turn (if necessary, like with invigorate).
Edit: Upon further investigation, the xantid swarm might actually be viable. Cast first turn. Attack with it next turn to prevent counters, then try to pull off the combo or just cast a predator/other cards without interference. Or even if it gets countered, it basically is a dummy spell to kill one of their counterspells. I just have to figure out what I want to pull out to put in a second swarm.
In any case, if you're going for competitive Legacy, I'd attempt something else than straight combo, since decks like TES, SI, Iggy and Belcher are and will always be faster and more consistent than you. You can't compete in that, so try competing in something else. Your combo takes less slots and works while only part of the pieces are present, so go for disruption-shell or beatdown-shell, either makes your goal easier to achieve. With Tarmogoyf, you could make it very scary as beatz too. Only problem is, Invigorate doesn't fit Rock too well and discard+reverent silence don't suit 9-land stompy perfectly.
Hmm... Tarmogoyf might be an interesting addition. But I already added the other creatures in to both support the combo and give an additional kill strategy. I may try running a mirror version of the deck with less card searches and more spot removal to sort of lean more towards the creature aggo and see how they compare. But as far as the other decks you mentioned, what turn do they tend to kill on? This deck mainly kills on turn 3 or 4 but I'd like it to be more consistently on turn 2 or 3.
I think I'm going to swap out the phthisis and mainly use that for multiplayer for psychological warfare (which doesn't pertain to this subforum).
This deck caught my interest and I've been doing some brainstorming on it for most of the day. I actually found another list that took second place at a legacy tournament, though the rest of the meta was semi questionable to say the least, pretty underdeveloped compared to mine anyway. However i think the deck has a lot of nice touches that you might be able to incorporate into your build. here is the link: http://www.germagic.de/dc/deck.php?id=8393
if that doesn't work out I'll post the list here.
I like the more aggro approach but I'm not sure that the skyshroud elite and mire boa are best for the job. i do however really like invigorate and umezawa's jitte. the strong discard base is noteworthy as well. i think you may want to consider splashing white for Swords if nothing else. that could be a bomb if you timed it well.
i keep imagining the angel stax matchup. he swings with the angel, you play false cure with damage on the stack. let damage resolve and remove it from the game for 16 damage to the dome, and a rfg angel (all for BBW)
two more cards to consider: crumble and life burst. for some reason i keep thinking to a cumulative upkeep card that allows the opponent to gain life as well, however i'm coming up short on finding it. edit wall of shards not quite sure on how long it would take to kill them with it, but it might be worth looking into.
We played Legacy tournaments every saturday in my local store, most of the decks are rogue but the top tables are always dominated by vial goblins, landstill, CRET belcher and some MBC. I managed to win the whole thing with my list (I've posted this list in The Source as JCteam_ripio). IMHO the aggro approach is the best way to go with this deck. If you want to make this a viable combo deck I recomend Pact of negation coming from the board against FOW those are my two cents
I have been eyeballing pact of negation and snuff out for possible freebe creature kill. I also have crumble in my sideboard for the casual version of this. I just figured it would be best to leave it out since I want to maximize the speed to kill the opponent. In the long run, yes crumble would be in the deck if the metagame proved to have longer games and thus higher casting cost targets for the spell.
Yeah i realized that Wall of Shards is no good, it peaks after 6 turns but you are still nowhere near killing them. Scratch that idea.
Some other cards i've been looking into are Mask of Memory, and Shred Memory. Both are additional ways to draw into your combo. Not to mention that shred is a champ in the threshold matchup.
We may have a pretty tough matchup against a lot of decks but that Angel Stax/Stompy matchup keeps popping into my mind and it makes me laugh. Scenario #2: Opponent declares attack with exalted angel. You play false cure followed by invigorate targeting his angel with damage on the stack. Damage resolves, you take 4, they take 22. Good game boys.
Against FOW you should just play all your cheap discard...true they may have brainstorm but that's why you also run Xantid Swarm in the board.
i have been playing false cure with kavu predator for as long as the kavu has been around. i made a thread back earlier this year about the deck. this is my current decklist and ill give a few explanations afterwards.
for one you need 4 false cures and 4 of each of the 'free' life gainer green cards. they can't counter the life gain ability since it is part of the cost of the spell. really it is about timing when you cast the false cure.
i also run only 9 lands because i have free mana in elvish spirit guide and a full compliment of birds and elves. all of them and bob can be powered up with dropping a rancor on any of them in slow times in the game, and rancor turns any creatures you draw into potential threats.
berserk wins. period. berserk with invigorate and with rancor is usually good times.
anyhow this version that i have been running seems to be the most consistent version that i have tested.
I think that "The Cure" or "False Kavu" are the most appropriated names for this deck. As for your list, I don't like Shred Memory If you want to draw into your combo (though I don't believe that this deck is more combo than aggro) I prefer Wall of Blossoms like Xavi Fugaroles or Night's whisper
Shred has multiple uses; it tutors for cure, kavu, jitte, and a number of other things that probably are not as effective as the aformentioned but are still accessible (basically it is an uncounterable Grim Tutor with no life payment for all of your key elements). Additionally it is really effective against IGGY Pop, and other IGG variants, as well as threshold. I don't necessarily think it is a dead card at all ever. Wall of blossoms is ok, but it only draws 1 card, whisper is also fairly limited. Bob is your best source of card advantage hands down. If you are going for the aggro approach, Wall of Blossoms seems a little counterintuitive to be playing a defender that does not even trade combat damage.
It depends on your metagame, I play with a red splash because vial goblins are always in the top tables, If you think that Shred Memory works for you that's OK
rancor is seriously needed. it is the card that puts bob and skycutter to work.
in my version, i have birds also and birds with rancor can win games. you have to think in terms of consistency. sure the combo can outright kill anyone, but you need backup plans that dont require you having to mulligan until you get combo pieces.
rancor and berserk all fill that slot. i also run elvish spirit guide since it allows you to get an explosive start. if you have kavu in hand or bob then you can usually get a 1st turn predator out.
sometimes you dont need to worry about waiting for the false cure. like one time i had spirit guide in hand with predator and 2 cutters along with 1 reverent silence and 1 fetchland. so i drop out the fetchland and get a bayou and then push out the predator and cast the 2 cutters along with the silence (netting them +16 life), but i had an 18/18 trampling predator on the table along with 2 cutters which made it basically a 2 turn clock.
actually it potentially makes it a 1 turn clock if you draw a berserk.
I will try rancors in my build, they have good synergy with Tarmogyf (in play or in the graveyard) as for Berserk, well, they're too expensive :(. What about fling for a budget build?
I will try rancors in my build, they have good synergy with Tarmogyf (in play or in the graveyard) as for Berserk, well, they're too expensive :(. What about fling for a budget build?
actually berserk is a kill more card. you really dont need them in the deck. just having one makes the opponent nervous (the possibility of drawing it), and of course having 2 makes them even more nervous. still having too many berserks like 4 in the deck doesnt really help.
also tarmogyf ,as good as he is, is merely a flea compared to kavu predator in the deck. most of the time, my kavu is like a 10/10 or greater. tarmogyf at most can be a 6/7 right now (once they have the tribal and planewalker types in he could be an 8/9 ... land, creature, enchantment, sorcery, instant, artifact), but with just 1 skycutter in hand kavu is already a 7/7 trampler :-).
btw they can't stop you from letting them gain the life since it is part of the cost or an alternate cost to playing the card.
fling would be cool, but it is unneccessary since you have to splash another color and have more mana fixers. the benefits outweigh the costs for that card.
if you are worried about mirror matchups or worried about other creatures then splash in smother since it kills just about 95% of the creatures in legacy.
Hmm, rancor is an interesting twist to the backup aggro plan. Might be worth playtesting a couple. Shred might also be an interesting pick as it can disrupt graveyard manipulation when necessary early on and search for the false cures for the combo (which is what I've been looking for).
Thanks for the advice Top Deck :), I haven't played the deck for a while because I've been testing a GBr The Rock with burning wish, I just love playing BGr (almost same manabase as my False Cure deck in post #7). I believe in the power of Kavu Predator being Kavu+Cutter my favorite play against almost any deck (bayou+cabal therapy+Cutter+flashback therapy being the best against Belcher after they play land grant :)).
I encourage people to play this deck cause is both competitive and fun to play, I had a 6-1 record with it, my only loss being against CRET belcher due a terrible mistake in the final game of the match, I had my revenge in the semifinals. I won the tournament beating vial goblins, B/w Confidant, Belcher,MBC, Gro and Landstill
Thanks for the advice Top Deck :), I haven't played the deck for a while because I've been testing a GBr The Rock with burning wish, I just love playing BGr (almost same manabase as my False Cure deck in post #7). I believe in the power of Kavu Predator being Kavu+Cutter my favorite play against almost any deck (bayou+cabal therapy+Cutter+flashback therapy being the best against Belcher after they play land grant :)).
I encourage people to play this deck cause is both competitive and fun to play, I had a 6-1 record with it, my only loss being against CRET belcher due a terrible mistake in the final game of the match, I had my revenge in the semifinals. I won the tournament beating vial goblins, B/w Confidant, Belcher,MBC, Gro and Landstill
yaw the deck is fun to play. definitely everyone should give the deck a spin at least once. i played at a legacy tourney on last sunday and i went undefeated dropping no games aside from 1 (to a monoblack deck). the cool part was beating a rock deck after he wastelands my bayou.
it was turn 3 and i had a dark confidant (with rancor on him) and i had two bayous out. i got out bob turn 1 with bayou + elvish spirit guide. anyhow bob swung for 4 on turn 2 (with rancor's help).
on his turn 2 he wastelands my bayou and says go (he is at 16). i play false cure then play cutter (knocking out 5 more life --- he is at 11) and swing with bob with rancor on him and then cast invigorate (bob is now 8/5 and he loses 3 more life going to 8). swing for the win.
i needed to read more carefully, up until like ten mins ago i thought that false cure didn't let them gain the life but instead had them lose 2x that. oh well. i need to go back and make some tweaks. i feel like a total douche. sigh. anyway, here is the list i have been playing around with.
This is the kind of combo deck that can randomly own face out of nowhere. The idea is so original, and is the best deck that nobody ever thinks anybody would ever take to a tournament. I have no advice to give you, since I've done no testing with the deck, but I wanted to give it the MD stamp of approval. I've gone up against it on MWS and assumed they were playing a jank Dirt list, just to have them go "Spell, spell, spell, Flase Cure, gg nub sb?"
*thumbs are up*
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I ran this in the old extended format. My list ran blue for Echoing Truth, this allowed you to bounce and replay your cutters if needed and also added some extra control to the deck. They can also pitch to Force of Will of course.
yeah - obviously I disagree with you, John. Spam Warning!.....Amazing - even in a forum where posts don't count, there's spam. That proves that getting rid of the post-count won't help getting rid of spam! Thans for this excellent example! - Craven
4 Dark Confidant
1 Dosan the Falling Leaf
4 Kavu Predator
4 Skyshroud Cutter
Spells
2 Chainer's Edict
3 Dark Ritual
3 Desperate Research
1 Doomsday
2 Duress
4 False Cure
2 Invigorate
2 Land Grant
2 Phthisis
4 Reverent Silence
3 Summoner's Pact
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Sylvan Library
Artifacts
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mox Diamond
1 Sensei's Divining Top
Lands
4 Bayou
2 Bloodstained Mire
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Elvish Spirit Guide
2 Invigorate
1 Regrowth
1 Summoner's Pact
2 Suppress
1 City of Solitude
1 Elephant Grass
1 No Mercy
2 Seal of Primordium
1 Chalice of the Void
1 Null Rod
1 Tormod's Crypt
Possible but highly unlikely first turn kill #1: Bayou (or Overgrown Tomb), Dark Ritual, False Cure, drop all freebee cards (any combination of 4 Skyshroud Cutters/Reverent Silence) for kill.
Possible but highly unlikely first turn kill #2: Drop a bayou, Lotus Petal, dark ritual, two False Cure, drop freebee cards (either two cutters, two silences, one cutter and one silence, one cutter and one invigorate).
Possible second turn kill #1: Drop a bayou or overgrown tomb, dark ritual, Doomsday for 4 Skyshroud Cutters or 4 Reverent Silences with a Desperate Research or Dark Ritual (whichever you don't have in hand, or a bayou or overgrown tomb if you have no second land in hand but have the research & ritual) as the top card. Next turn drop a bayou or overgrown tomb, dark ritual, desperate research (for cutters or silence), false cure, 4 cutters or 4 silences for kill.
Possible second turn kill #2: Drop a bayou (or overgrown tomb), drop lotus petal (or Elvish Spirit Guide), Kavu Predator. Then drop another bayou or overgrown tomb, false cure, any two freebee cards (cutter, silence, invigorate), attack.
I rarely need more than 1-2 land at any time. Most of the other cards in the deck are for speeding up the deck and for problems the opponent may create. (just a lil' note for casual players... this combo works with multiplayer with ridiculous outcomes.)
Fastest kill to date: turn 3.
Biggest kill to date: 7 players at once.
I'm going to playtest these cards in the deck to see how they do:
Wall of Blossoms (fast defense/card drawing)
Seal of Doom or Phthisis (players will be less likely to put out creatures, delaying so I can get combo cards without taking too much damage)
Seal of Primordium (players will be less likely to play good artifacts and enchantments, delaying so I can get what I need out without disruption from them)
Chalice of the Void for 0 mana. (takes care of pesky lotus and moxes and such)
Null Rod (for all sorts of nasty artifacts.)
Commune with Nature (to find more cutters and critters)
Snuff Out (more freebee cards as all lands are swamps, critter killer)
General revisions:
I'm contemplating swapping two of the search lands for two more land grants to save deck cost and the 1 life.
Planar Chaos revisions:
Psychological Warfare. Removed some mass removal (Innocent Blood, Abyssal Gatekeeper) in favor of Chainer's Edict and Kavu Predator and replaced Night's Whisper, Phyrexian Arena, and Infernal Tutor with Dark Confidant (as it speeds up draw each turn and can attack) to try to disguise the deck as a sort of weenie deck to distract opponents while I get my combo cards for the mass kill.
Future Sight revisions:
I plan to try out Summoner's Pact to retrieve Skyshroud Cutters for the win condition. This will allow me to effectively have 8 copies of Skyshroud Cutters. I'm still trying to decide what to side out for them. Perhaps the invigorates.
Things I'm worried about:
Force of Will, Disrupt, Force Spike, Spell Snare, Disrupting Shoal (counterspells are the reason for Duress and Suppress and City of Solitude and dosan. Interestingly enough, as long as they don't counter false cure, the combo still works as it is part of the cost of the spell and not an effect created by the spell itself.)
Syphon Patience
Commons Graveyard Manipulation
... here's a stripped down version, focussing on the combo & protecting it.
4 False Cure
4 Reverent Silence
4 Skyshroud Cutter
4 Summoner's Pact
search
4 Brainstorm
4 Mystical Tutor
4 Force of Will
4 Pact of Negation
2 Misdirection
4 Durress
mana
4 Dark Ritual
4 Lotus Petal
3 Bayou
3 Tropical Island
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
Now, where to go from here...
EDIT: Which was in the original list (hmm, pays to read, which I didn't...completely), seems like Twigs list could use it too just as well.
Oooh good eye, I didn't even realize that lotus petal isn't restricted in this format. Yeah I'll just swap the mox out for another petal then.
Well I prefer to keep the False Cure as the main combo, the survival wouldn't be overly conducive as I really want to hold onto the critters as long as possible until the combo is ready. And the only problem with the xantid swarm is I have to attack first so it doesn't protect me from trying to pull off the combo on the opponent's turn (if necessary, like with invigorate).
Edit: Upon further investigation, the xantid swarm might actually be viable. Cast first turn. Attack with it next turn to prevent counters, then try to pull off the combo or just cast a predator/other cards without interference. Or even if it gets countered, it basically is a dummy spell to kill one of their counterspells. I just have to figure out what I want to pull out to put in a second swarm.
Hmm... Tarmogoyf might be an interesting addition. But I already added the other creatures in to both support the combo and give an additional kill strategy. I may try running a mirror version of the deck with less card searches and more spot removal to sort of lean more towards the creature aggo and see how they compare. But as far as the other decks you mentioned, what turn do they tend to kill on? This deck mainly kills on turn 3 or 4 but I'd like it to be more consistently on turn 2 or 3.
I think I'm going to swap out the phthisis and mainly use that for multiplayer for psychological warfare (which doesn't pertain to this subforum).
4 Dark Confidant
1 Xantid Swarm
4 Kavu Predator
4 Skyshroud Cutter
Spells
2 Diabolic Edict
3 Dark Ritual
3 Desperate Research
1 Doomsday
4 Duress
4 False Cure
2 Invigorate
4 Land Grant
4 Reverent Silence
3 Summoner's Pact
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Sylvan Library
Artifacts
2 Lotus Petal
1 Sensei's Divining Top
Lands
4 Bayou
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Lotus Petal
2 Invigorate
1 Regrowth
1 Summoner's Pact
2 Suppress
1 City of Solitude
1 Elephant Grass
1 No Mercy
2 Seal of Primordium
1 Chalice of the Void
1 Null Rod
1 Tormod's Crypt
Syphon Patience
Commons Graveyard Manipulation
if that doesn't work out I'll post the list here.
4x Bayou
3x Polluted Delta
4x Wooded Foothills
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1x Overgrown Tomb
2x Swamp
4x Skyshroud Elite
3x Mire Boa
4x Wall of Blossoms
4x Dark Confidant
4x Kavu Predator
4x Skyshroud Cutter
3x Cabal Therapy
2x False Cure
3x Putrefy
4x Invigorate
2x Umezawa's Jitte
2x Xantid Swarm
4x Extirpate
2x Sudden Spoling
3x Krosan Grip
4x Engineered Plague
I like the more aggro approach but I'm not sure that the skyshroud elite and mire boa are best for the job. i do however really like invigorate and umezawa's jitte. the strong discard base is noteworthy as well. i think you may want to consider splashing white for Swords if nothing else. that could be a bomb if you timed it well.
i keep imagining the angel stax matchup. he swings with the angel, you play false cure with damage on the stack. let damage resolve and remove it from the game for 16 damage to the dome, and a rfg angel (all for BBW)
two more cards to consider: crumble and life burst. for some reason i keep thinking to a cumulative upkeep card that allows the opponent to gain life as well, however i'm coming up short on finding it. edit wall of shards not quite sure on how long it would take to kill them with it, but it might be worth looking into.
Current EDH Decks:
G Multani, Maro-Sorcerer
B Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed
GU Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
4x Kird ape
4x Dark confidant
3x Tarmogoyf
3x Mire boa
4x Skyshroud Cutter
4x Invigorate
2x False cure
3x cabal therapy
4x lightning bolt
2x Umezawa's jitte
2x putrefy
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4x Wooded foothills
3x Bloodstained mire
3x Bayou
2x Taiga
1x Badland
3x Forest
1x Mountain
1x Swamp
1x Grove of the Burnwillows
4x Pyroclasm
3x Duress
3x Pithing needle
2x Krosan grip
1x False Cure
2x Extirpate
We played Legacy tournaments every saturday in my local store, most of the decks are rogue but the top tables are always dominated by vial goblins, landstill, CRET belcher and some MBC. I managed to win the whole thing with my list (I've posted this list in The Source as JCteam_ripio). IMHO the aggro approach is the best way to go with this deck. If you want to make this a viable combo deck I recomend Pact of negation coming from the board against FOW those are my two cents
Syphon Patience
Commons Graveyard Manipulation
Some other cards i've been looking into are Mask of Memory, and Shred Memory. Both are additional ways to draw into your combo. Not to mention that shred is a champ in the threshold matchup.
We may have a pretty tough matchup against a lot of decks but that Angel Stax/Stompy matchup keeps popping into my mind and it makes me laugh. Scenario #2: Opponent declares attack with exalted angel. You play false cure followed by invigorate targeting his angel with damage on the stack. Damage resolves, you take 4, they take 22. Good game boys.
Against FOW you should just play all your cheap discard...true they may have brainstorm but that's why you also run Xantid Swarm in the board.
Here's what I've been toying with.
4x Kavu Predator
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Skyshroud Cutter
4x Duress
4x Cabal Therapy
3x False Cure
4x Invigorate
2x Reverent Silence
2x Umezawa's Jitte
3x Shred Memory
2x Putrefy
1x Overgrown Tomb
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2x Cabal Pit
1x Polluted Delta
1x Bloodstained Mire
1x Wooded Foothills
1x Windswept Heath
5x Forest
3x Swamp
4x Pithing Needle
4x Engineered Plague
2x Extirpate
1x Massacre
Current EDH Decks:
G Multani, Maro-Sorcerer
B Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed
GU Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
4 Kavu Predator
4 Skyshroud Cutter
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Fyndhorn Elvish
3 Elves of Deep Shadow
2 Cabal Therapy
4 False Cure
4 Invigorate
4 Reverent Silence
4 Rancor
2 Berserk
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Polluted Delta
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Windswept Heath
for one you need 4 false cures and 4 of each of the 'free' life gainer green cards. they can't counter the life gain ability since it is part of the cost of the spell. really it is about timing when you cast the false cure.
i also run only 9 lands because i have free mana in elvish spirit guide and a full compliment of birds and elves. all of them and bob can be powered up with dropping a rancor on any of them in slow times in the game, and rancor turns any creatures you draw into potential threats.
berserk wins. period. berserk with invigorate and with rancor is usually good times.
anyhow this version that i have been running seems to be the most consistent version that i have tested.
1x Bloodstained Mire
1x Wooded Foothills
1x Windswept Heath
4x Bayou
1x Scrubland
1x Savannah
2x Cabal Pit
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
5x Forest
2x Swamp
3x Tarmogoyf
4x Kavu Predator
4x Dark Confidant
4x Skyshroud Cutter
4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Cabal Therapy
3x False Cure
3x Shred Memory
4x Invigorate
2x Reverent Silence
3x Xantid Swarm
4x Duress
4x Pithing Needle
4x Engineered Explosives
i do really really like berserk though, hmm...
Current EDH Decks:
G Multani, Maro-Sorcerer
B Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed
GU Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
Current EDH Decks:
G Multani, Maro-Sorcerer
B Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed
GU Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
in my version, i have birds also and birds with rancor can win games. you have to think in terms of consistency. sure the combo can outright kill anyone, but you need backup plans that dont require you having to mulligan until you get combo pieces.
rancor and berserk all fill that slot. i also run elvish spirit guide since it allows you to get an explosive start. if you have kavu in hand or bob then you can usually get a 1st turn predator out.
sometimes you dont need to worry about waiting for the false cure. like one time i had spirit guide in hand with predator and 2 cutters along with 1 reverent silence and 1 fetchland. so i drop out the fetchland and get a bayou and then push out the predator and cast the 2 cutters along with the silence (netting them +16 life), but i had an 18/18 trampling predator on the table along with 2 cutters which made it basically a 2 turn clock.
actually it potentially makes it a 1 turn clock if you draw a berserk.
actually berserk is a kill more card. you really dont need them in the deck. just having one makes the opponent nervous (the possibility of drawing it), and of course having 2 makes them even more nervous. still having too many berserks like 4 in the deck doesnt really help.
also tarmogyf ,as good as he is, is merely a flea compared to kavu predator in the deck. most of the time, my kavu is like a 10/10 or greater. tarmogyf at most can be a 6/7 right now (once they have the tribal and planewalker types in he could be an 8/9 ... land, creature, enchantment, sorcery, instant, artifact), but with just 1 skycutter in hand kavu is already a 7/7 trampler :-).
btw they can't stop you from letting them gain the life since it is part of the cost or an alternate cost to playing the card.
fling would be cool, but it is unneccessary since you have to splash another color and have more mana fixers. the benefits outweigh the costs for that card.
if you are worried about mirror matchups or worried about other creatures then splash in smother since it kills just about 95% of the creatures in legacy.
Syphon Patience
Commons Graveyard Manipulation
I encourage people to play this deck cause is both competitive and fun to play, I had a 6-1 record with it, my only loss being against CRET belcher due a terrible mistake in the final game of the match, I had my revenge in the semifinals. I won the tournament beating vial goblins, B/w Confidant, Belcher,MBC, Gro and Landstill
yaw the deck is fun to play. definitely everyone should give the deck a spin at least once. i played at a legacy tourney on last sunday and i went undefeated dropping no games aside from 1 (to a monoblack deck). the cool part was beating a rock deck after he wastelands my bayou.
it was turn 3 and i had a dark confidant (with rancor on him) and i had two bayous out. i got out bob turn 1 with bayou + elvish spirit guide. anyhow bob swung for 4 on turn 2 (with rancor's help).
on his turn 2 he wastelands my bayou and says go (he is at 16). i play false cure then play cutter (knocking out 5 more life --- he is at 11) and swing with bob with rancor on him and then cast invigorate (bob is now 8/5 and he loses 3 more life going to 8). swing for the win.
1x Bloodstained Mire
1x Wooded Foothills
1x Windswept Heath
4x Bayou
1x Scrubland
1x Savannah
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2x Dryad Arbor
4x Forest
3x Swamp
4x Dark Confidant
4x Skyshroud Cutter
2x Jotun Grunt
4x Duress
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Invigorate
3x False Cure
3x Putrefy
2x Reverent Silence
2x Umezawa's Jitte
Current EDH Decks:
G Multani, Maro-Sorcerer
B Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed
GU Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
This is the kind of combo deck that can randomly own face out of nowhere. The idea is so original, and is the best deck that nobody ever thinks anybody would ever take to a tournament. I have no advice to give you, since I've done no testing with the deck, but I wanted to give it the MD stamp of approval. I've gone up against it on MWS and assumed they were playing a jank Dirt list, just to have them go "Spell, spell, spell, Flase Cure, gg nub sb?"
*thumbs are up*
Member of Team Lucksack
Voting for Ron Paul in 2008
Learn how to get better at Magic
Syphon Patience
Commons Graveyard Manipulation
Your oponnent is not the controler of the spell or ability (Invigorate, cutter, etc.) that causes the life gain