This deck is certainly making some waves at SCG opens, and is responsible for Shallow Grave spiking from $3 to $40 in the past month or so. I'm surprised there is no thread for it on here, though the thread on The Source has a good 23 pages as of the time of posting this.
So, the original list posted by RichardCheese on the source.
Yeah it's another Griselbrand deck. I know there's already Reanimator and Count Chocula and GriselbrandReanimator, so on and so forth. There are similarities here with all of them, but I think the kill condition/sideboard plan are different enough to warrant a separate thread, but if the mods feel otherwise, feel free to kill this off.
Origin Story:
First things first: the name:
Grislebrand = Grizzlebees = TinFins. If you don't get it, I can't help you. The first iteration was basically ANT, based on Antonius' idea of running a singleton Goryo's Vengeance to make LED/Grizzle/IT a win con. Too fragile and too slow. TinFins 2 was that, but with almost all the protection replaced by more filter spells. More consistent, but more all in on that one win-con, with some really clunky draws...still a 3-card combo. Enter TinFins 3. Closer to Reanimator but with a combo finish, and the ability to shed all graveyard dependence post-board.
Reason to Play:
Card Choices
Everything is pretty self explanatory. Still up for debate are the exact numbers of Moxen, Forces, and Tendrils.
How is it any good?
-Needs very little mana to go off. Ritual, Entomb, Vengeance is perfectly doable.
-Low storm requirement. If Grizz connects, you need 7 storm, so far has never been a problem.
-Does not have to over commit. Having to crack LED to make your tutor work forces your hand. You can't always go off with protection, and sometimes they just topdeck a counter. Here, you can go off without committing your entire hand, which can be huge.
-Redundancy. 8 ways to get Grizz in the yard (plus just draw, discard, go) and 7 reanimation effects. Helps make up for the lack of protection by letting you attempt to go off multiple times and overwhelm control decks.
-Transormative sideboard. Maybe it's not the right way to go, I'm not really a combo guy or anything, but it's been working alright in testing so far. The idea though, was that everyone and their brother is either running Grafdigger's Cage or Surgical Extraction, both of which are pretty bad for this deck. Rather than board in a bunch of anti-hate to water down the main strategy, I say board the whole thing out. If it goes to game 3, shuffle the entire board in again, and let them try to guess what strategy to fight, and see how many dead cards they get stuck with. Duressing someone game 2 to see Swords to Plowshares and Surgical Extraction feels pretty good. "Become the ruling body".
But isn't it bad?
Yeah maybe. It runs less protection than most combo decks, and I'm not even sure that Force over Duress is the way to go, considering the blue count. Targeted discard is nice, but requires extra mana that the deck usually doesn't have. Again, redundancy makes fighting through counters a little easier, and Force becomes much better once Grizzlebee's actually hits play, as it allows him to protect himself in a way discard really can't.
It also feels like it needs more Rituals, as there can be games where you draw 21 cards on turn 1 and have Tendrils in hand but can't cast it. On the plus side, most of the time you're going to be perfectly set up to win on the next turn.
The whole sideboard thing is also just experimental at this point, and could be totally wrong. If nothing else it's pretty funny. Other options are boarding into a more full-fledged Reanimator list, Show and Tell, or just a bunch of protection.
Why not just play ______?
-Reanimator: Faster, by a lot, does not really care about Karakas. It can also trick opponents into boarding into a lot of dead cards like Humility, Ensnaring Bridge, graveyard hate, Pithing Needle, and leaving in Swords.
-ANT: Nothing super compelling. Still fairly dependent on life total, still a bit soft to multiple hard counters. On the upside, going off with no mana floating is easier because of Chrome Mox, and you can play around hatebears like Thalia and Teeg in game 1 by just swinging with a hasty Grizzlebee, then drawing just enough to set yourself up to do it next turn, rinse, repeat.
-TES: Same as above, but even less protection. Main advantage here is the manabase.
-Sneak/Show: Not on everyone's radar, no chance of your own Show and Tell backfiring on you by dropping Ensnaring Bridge, Humility, Gilded Drake, et. al. Also feels more consistent/faster, but no numbers to back that up so don't take it as the gospel truth. Also you can drop Grizzle off their SnT to Legend rule him, then just get yours back on your turn. Stop hitting yourself!
Among the 23 pages of discussion and development, Children of Korlis has been discovered as an insane way to draw 14-28 more cards each, and it has been pretty much established that an anti-hate board is better than many of the transformational options such as ANT or Show and Tell.
All credit goes to RichardCheese on The Source for the Original post, and .dk and Phazonmu[t]ant for major contributions and lots of testing.
This deck is super nutty, I would not be surprised if Griselbrand got Griselbanned in the very near future.
AS PER REQUEST: The name comes from Season 2, Episode 19 of Sealab 2021
The crew of Sealab (along with a vapid gossip-show host, a bear in lederhosen and guest stars Kid 'n Play) star in a sneak preview special for the movie Tinfins, complete with plenty of ads for the restaurant Grizzlebee's: "You'll wish you had less fun."
I don't think we've ever had a Developing thread solely devoted to Tin Fins as a deck, though. twndomn, your post sounds like referring to an "OmniTell vs. Sneak Show" thread and a "Sneak Show" thread as arguments for not having a separate OmniTell thread--like OmniTell and Sneak Show, Tin Fins and Reanimator are sufficiently different to deserve their own threads.
I think that a more valid comparison when it comes to whether or not this deck is sufficiently different from an existing deck would be TinFins vs. The Spanish Inquisition because all are basically absurd dig power at the cost of almost all life to Storm out T1.
Speaking of T1 kills, is there a T1 kill statistic on this deck yet?
Sidenote: if TinFins is named after what Google told me it's named after, TinFins vs. the Spanish Inquisition would make a great sequel.
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Vive, vale. Siquid novisti rectius istis,
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
~~~~~
Does anyone feel this deck could lead to the re-banning of Entomb?
No. If anything, it'd knock Griselbrand out of another format because with this Griselbrand has officially morphed three archetypes (Reanimator, Show and Tell, and now Storm). And of those archetypes, Sneak and Show is now the Deck to Beat because Griselbrand makes finding Emrakul easier, Reanimator is fine as far as I know, and there are not enough results on this deck yet to make claims about it.
From what we have seen from its performance in SCG tournaments, tinfins has a lower turn 1 kill percentage than spanish inquisition, belcher and the informer/balustrade combo.
OFFTOPIC: As I can't check it out now, which decks made top8 ?
U/W/R Helm
1st
Jack Colwell
Reanimator
2nd
Jacob Kory
Sneak and Show
3rd
Joseph Loster
Sneak and Show
4th
William Jensen
Dredge
5th
Jason Bulkowski
RUG Delver
6th
Thomas Johnson
U/W/r Miracles
7th
Joe Lossett
RUG Delver
8th
Barrett Kroeger
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"When you're playing legacy everyday is Christmas." ~Moa
"You know a set is bad when people would rather discuss dildos than the spoiled cards."
~Barook
That's what I was thinking, but more along the lines of "80%! Holy crap I got to build this beast"
I guess that speaks more about my cynical character than anything. I just assume people are misunderstood or lying until proven otherwise.
I have yet to see what's so great about this deck. It is a good combo, but it runs almost no protection. 2-4 Thoughtsieze are not enough to protect the combo, since they are only drawn in the opening hand ~22-40% of the time and if someone's going to stop you they would do it before you combo off and so you cannot rely on drawing them with Griselbrand. The cantrips do help with this, but it doesn't seem to be enough. If the deck had more consistent Turn 1 wins, then it would be better in regards to not requiring as much anti-hate, but this really looks to be more of a turn 2-3 win deck, which gives the opponent plenty of options.
The sideboard is questionable as well. Even after boarding in, I cannot see how this deck protects its combo well enough.
It's not as consistent and doesn't protect it's combo well enough like traditional Reanimator does. If you're going for pure speed, then I've had significantly better Turn 1 wins with Spy/Informer Combo deck and that's with Pact of Negation back up.
As it stands, I cannot see justification for the hype. Does anyone else see something I'm not seeing?
It's 7-8 protection slots (Therapy, Thoughtseize, Silence) rather than 2-4. Pretty standard amount for something this fast (ie TES).
Therapy is not reliable hate without duplicates or Probe, but it is anti-hate. I missed Silence. It's a bit better protected then previously thought, but not much, and I'm still not seeing the selling point.
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"When you're playing legacy everyday is Christmas." ~Moa
"You know a set is bad when people would rather discuss dildos than the spoiled cards."
~Barook
Deck is bonkers, but needs more work. I am not through with it yet.
It is better protected than other Griselbrand decks, except perhaps Reanimator.
It is equally protected as TES.
It is more protected than ANT.
Therapy is really powerful provided you know how to play it properly. You are not trying to hit cards they have in their hand. You are trying to hit cards that would stop you from winning right now. (FoW, Surgical, Mindbreak Trap, etc)
Rumors of its Turn 1 win percentage is likely accurate. I would say around 20% is appropriate. It's higher in goldfish, obviously. Many matchups where the opponent cannot meaningfully interact also make that %age higher.
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Twitter - @MTGKoby | MODO - Koby 5x SCG Legacy Open T8
16th place GP Indianapolis 2012
^ Congrats man. Do you know what the timestamps are for your match(es) this weekend? I can only watch Miracles and BUG Agent draw-Top-go for so long before I want to kill myself.
As it stands, I cannot see justification for the hype. Does anyone else see something I'm not seeing?
1. It's a shiny new Storm Deck
2. It's a unique storm deck (it's the first that attacks in addition to building storm)
3. Griselbrand
4. It performed well in a high scale event.
That's enough to justify the hype. But now that it's on everybody's radar, we will see whether or not it lives to that hype.
1. It's a shiny new Storm Deck
2. It's a unique storm deck (it's the first that attacks in addition to building storm)
3. Griselbrand
3. It performed well in a high scale event.
That's enough to justify the hype. But now that it's on everybody's radar, we will see whether or not it lives to that hype.
Fair enough. We'll have to see how it fairs in the long run and if any further developments can make it into something truly special.
I do like its uniqueness, I do like Griselbrand, and in its defence it did place well.
My deck of choice is U/B Reanimator, so I'd be lying if I said this deck wasn't interesting. I'll keep an eye on it and do some play testing myself to see if there's anything better that can be done with it.
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():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"When you're playing legacy everyday is Christmas." ~Moa
"You know a set is bad when people would rather discuss dildos than the spoiled cards."
~Barook
^ Congrats man. Do you know what the timestamps are for your match(es) this weekend? I can only watch Miracles and BUG Agent draw-Top-go for so long before I want to kill myself.
Thanks! I was put on camera for Rounds 7, Top 8, and finals.
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Twitter - @MTGKoby | MODO - Koby 5x SCG Legacy Open T8
16th place GP Indianapolis 2012
I really need clarification of this deck's name, and man does this deck look extremely fun. If I wanted to buy Shallow Grave and Goryo's Vengeance before the price jump, I would be all over this. Unfortunately Polluted Delta and Sea prevented my commitment.
So, the original list posted by RichardCheese on the source.
Origin Story:
Reason to Play:
Among the 23 pages of discussion and development, Children of Korlis has been discovered as an insane way to draw 14-28 more cards each, and it has been pretty much established that an anti-hate board is better than many of the transformational options such as ANT or Show and Tell.
All credit goes to RichardCheese on The Source for the Original post, and .dk and Phazonmu[t]ant for major contributions and lots of testing.
This deck is super nutty, I would not be surprised if Griselbrand got Griselbanned in the very near future.
AS PER REQUEST: The name comes from Season 2, Episode 19 of Sealab 2021
Jacob Kory
8th Place at StarCityGames.com Legacy Open on 3/3/2013
2 Children of Korlis
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
2 Griselbrand
Lands (13)
1 Swamp
4 Marsh Flats
4 Polluted Delta
1 Scrubland
1 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
Spells (42)
2 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 Brainstorm
4 Dark Ritual
4 Entomb
3 Goryo's Vengeance
4 Shallow Grave
1 Silence
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Ponder
1 Reanimate
1 Tendrils of Agony
2 Thoughtseize
2 Pithing Needle
2 Chain of Vapor
1 Echoing Truth
1 Hurkyl's Recall
2 Pull from Eternity
2 Silence
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Massacre
YUMA, AZ
Speaking of T1 kills, is there a T1 kill statistic on this deck yet?
Sidenote: if TinFins is named after what Google told me it's named after, TinFins vs. the Spanish Inquisition would make a great sequel.
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
~~~~~
No. If anything, it'd knock Griselbrand out of another format because with this Griselbrand has officially morphed three archetypes (Reanimator, Show and Tell, and now Storm). And of those archetypes, Sneak and Show is now the Deck to Beat because Griselbrand makes finding Emrakul easier, Reanimator is fine as far as I know, and there are not enough results on this deck yet to make claims about it.
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
~~~~~
U/W/R Helm
1st
Jack Colwell
Reanimator
2nd
Jacob Kory
Sneak and Show
3rd
Joseph Loster
Sneak and Show
4th
William Jensen
Dredge
5th
Jason Bulkowski
RUG Delver
6th
Thomas Johnson
U/W/r Miracles
7th
Joe Lossett
RUG Delver
8th
Barrett Kroeger
"You know a set is bad when people would rather discuss dildos than the spoiled cards."
~Barook
1st: American (RWU) Rest in Peace
2nd: Tin Fins
3rd: Sneak Show
4th: Sneak Show
5th: Dredge
6th: RUG Delver
7th: American Miracles
8th: RUG Delver
Source.
So, Tin Fins has officially made it's first meta-appearance.
EDIT: Of course, I was ninja'd.
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
~~~~~
What was his sample size for that data?
"You know a set is bad when people would rather discuss dildos than the spoiled cards."
~Barook
You would have to ask Caleb
Holy out of context, Batman. Caleb was joking with the SCG staff when he said that.
A quote from his TinFins article
Thank you for clarifying. That seemed absurdly high.
"You know a set is bad when people would rather discuss dildos than the spoiled cards."
~Barook
Its a number the SCG commentators said, I was just repeating it. I suppose 18% sounds like 80%.
That's what I was thinking, but more along the lines of "80%! Holy crap I got to build this beast"
I guess that speaks more about my cynical character than anything. I just assume people are misunderstood or lying until proven otherwise.
I have yet to see what's so great about this deck. It is a good combo, but it runs almost no protection. 2-4 Thoughtsieze are not enough to protect the combo, since they are only drawn in the opening hand ~22-40% of the time and if someone's going to stop you they would do it before you combo off and so you cannot rely on drawing them with Griselbrand. The cantrips do help with this, but it doesn't seem to be enough. If the deck had more consistent Turn 1 wins, then it would be better in regards to not requiring as much anti-hate, but this really looks to be more of a turn 2-3 win deck, which gives the opponent plenty of options.
The sideboard is questionable as well. Even after boarding in, I cannot see how this deck protects its combo well enough.
It's not as consistent and doesn't protect it's combo well enough like traditional Reanimator does. If you're going for pure speed, then I've had significantly better Turn 1 wins with Spy/Informer Combo deck and that's with Pact of Negation back up.
As it stands, I cannot see justification for the hype. Does anyone else see something I'm not seeing?
"You know a set is bad when people would rather discuss dildos than the spoiled cards."
~Barook
Trade Thread
Modern
RWGBurnGWR
GUInfectUG
GRTronRG
UWGifts TronWU
URBGrixis DelverBRU
RGWZooWGR
Legacy
BUWTinFinsWUB
UROmniTellRU
BURTESRUB
GElves!G
GBPSIBG
RGBelcherGR
UBRGWDredgeWGRBU
UBAffinityBU
RBurnR
Vintage
UBGDoomsdayGBU
0Martello Shops0
GElves!G
UBTPSBU
UBelcherU
0Dredge0
Therapy is not reliable hate without duplicates or Probe, but it is anti-hate. I missed Silence. It's a bit better protected then previously thought, but not much, and I'm still not seeing the selling point.
"You know a set is bad when people would rather discuss dildos than the spoiled cards."
~Barook
It is better protected than other Griselbrand decks, except perhaps Reanimator.
It is equally protected as TES.
It is more protected than ANT.
Therapy is really powerful provided you know how to play it properly. You are not trying to hit cards they have in their hand. You are trying to hit cards that would stop you from winning right now. (FoW, Surgical, Mindbreak Trap, etc)
Rumors of its Turn 1 win percentage is likely accurate. I would say around 20% is appropriate. It's higher in goldfish, obviously. Many matchups where the opponent cannot meaningfully interact also make that %age higher.
5x SCG Legacy Open T8
16th place GP Indianapolis 2012
Check out my Legacy stream
Trade Thread
Modern
RWGBurnGWR
GUInfectUG
GRTronRG
UWGifts TronWU
URBGrixis DelverBRU
RGWZooWGR
Legacy
BUWTinFinsWUB
UROmniTellRU
BURTESRUB
GElves!G
GBPSIBG
RGBelcherGR
UBRGWDredgeWGRBU
UBAffinityBU
RBurnR
Vintage
UBGDoomsdayGBU
0Martello Shops0
GElves!G
UBTPSBU
UBelcherU
0Dredge0
1. It's a shiny new Storm Deck
2. It's a unique storm deck (it's the first that attacks in addition to building storm)
3. Griselbrand
4. It performed well in a high scale event.
That's enough to justify the hype. But now that it's on everybody's radar, we will see whether or not it lives to that hype.
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
~~~~~
Fair enough. We'll have to see how it fairs in the long run and if any further developments can make it into something truly special.
I do like its uniqueness, I do like Griselbrand, and in its defence it did place well.
My deck of choice is U/B Reanimator, so I'd be lying if I said this deck wasn't interesting. I'll keep an eye on it and do some play testing myself to see if there's anything better that can be done with it.
"You know a set is bad when people would rather discuss dildos than the spoiled cards."
~Barook
Thanks! I was put on camera for Rounds 7, Top 8, and finals.
5x SCG Legacy Open T8
16th place GP Indianapolis 2012
Check out my Legacy stream