Currently I am playing a build with 4x Tombstalker, 3x Dark Confidant, 3x Snuff Out and 2x Sylvan Library. In exchange I've taken out the sinkholes. I have had very few issues with the life loss created by Dark Confidant. The key is to use Confidant and Library mid game in order to smooth out the draws (read: no dark ritual top-decks) and give you the gas to finish the game.
This doesn't make the deck any less aggressive and trades off the disruption of sinkhole for a more secure mid-game.
Also, you should still play Wasteland in a version without Sinkhole since there are always occasions where hitting the right land is more important than hitting multiple lands. It also fuels Tombstalker which is pretty big.
Also in the sinkhole-less evagreen list, is it still worthwhile to run wasteland?
I mentioned this in an earlier post...
LD is a major strategy for this deck, and when you cut Sinkhole you take that strategy off the table; and especially for games two and three, Wasteland just becomes a colorless land, since they'll likely go for basics first anyway.
I don't advocate cutting LD from the deck, but if you were to cut Sinkhole, then I'd cut down on the Wastelands too. Wasteland takes on more of a control role, where we're still aggro/tempo, and becomes superfluous to the strategy of the deck.
I'd consider running just Wasteland in the slower versions, like Vesper Green (with Bob/Top, etc.), but for the faster versions it's Sinkhole+Wasteland or nothing (and taking out the LD strategy makes the deck worse imo...).
Edit: It's strange to me that so many people seem to take out Sinkhole first when sideboarding... From a play theory p.o.v. it's quite detrimental to the explosiveness of the deck. LD is one of the most powerful strategies available to us, and any mid-game inconsistencies can be mitigated with smart play and smart mulligans.
There are some matchups where LD is less potent, like combo or aggro that's outright faster than us (and in the current meta I can see that happening pretty often), but wouldn't it be smarter to just switch to a deck that's better in the current environment, than to neuter Eva Green in an attempt to adapt?
LD is a major strategy for this deck, and when you cut Sinkhole you take that strategy off the table; and especially for games two and three, Wasteland just becomes a colorless land, since they'll likely go for basics first anyway.
I don't understand how LD can be a "major strategy" for the deck when you only have 8 slots dedicated to land destruction. And unless you hit a land or two off of Hymn to Tourach, you really can't call it a strategy.
Most decks don't lose very much tempo from a single Sinkhole or Wasteland. Noble Hierarch, Aether Vial, Brainstorm, Top, etc. are all very heavily played and neuter your LD strategy unless you end up digging out 3+ LD cards.
I don't understand how LD can be a "major strategy" for the deck when you only have 8 slots dedicated to land destruction. And unless you hit a land or two off of Hymn to Tourach, you really can't call it a strategy.
Most decks don't lose very much tempo from a single Sinkhole or Wasteland. Noble Hierarch, Aether Vial, Brainstorm, Top, etc. are all very heavily played and neuter your LD strategy unless you end up digging out 3+ LD cards.
LD is a major strategy because it compliments our tempo plan. Sinkhole goes not only with Wasteland, but also Dark Ritual, Snuff Out, and your effective creatures. The LD isn't in there to mana-screw the opponent like many people assume, but to out-play your opponent. Sure, it is possible that the Sinkholes and Wastelands alone may be enough to mana-screw an opponent on occasion, and when this happens, it's very nice, but the goal is just to set an opponent back 1 turn behind you.
You mention Noble Hierarch, Vial, etc. going against your LD plan, and this is true. However, you should also note that when your opponent plays Hierarch, they are building their tempo, so playing Sinkhole still plays the tempo role, but now instead of you being a turn ahead of them, you even it up and stop them from being a turn ahead of you. So yes, playing Sinkhole against these decks doesn't let you out-play your opponent like it does in other matches, but it does stop your opponent from out-playing you.
LD is a major strategy because it compliments our tempo plan. Sinkhole goes not only with Wasteland, but also Dark Ritual, Snuff Out, and your effective creatures. The LD isn't in there to mana-screw the opponent like many people assume, but to out-play your opponent. Sure, it is possible that the Sinkholes and Wastelands alone may be enough to mana-screw an opponent on occasion, and when this happens, it's very nice, but the goal is just to set an opponent back 1 turn behind you.
You mention Noble Hierarch, Vial, etc. going against your LD plan, and this is true. However, you should also note that when your opponent plays Hierarch, they are building their tempo, so playing Sinkhole still plays the tempo role, but now instead of you being a turn ahead of them, you even it up and stop them from being a turn ahead of you. So yes, playing Sinkhole against these decks doesn't let you out-play your opponent like it does in other matches, but it does stop your opponent from out-playing you.
Yes, it is a tempo card. There isn't a LD strategy in the deck, but a tempo strategy. Destroying lands is only one way that you can gain tempo and isn't always the most effective. For example, killing a Noble Hierarch instead of a land is a much more effective way to gain tempo in that situation. So the question becomes; is Sinkhole the most effective way to gain tempo against the current meta?
I'd argue that in most cases that it is not the most effective way. The extremely tight curves that all of the top decks have in addition to cheap card selection and acceleration that allows for quick tempo recovery means that Sinkhole is not as good as it could be.
I'd propose that even Smother would be a better option than Sinkhole in certain metas. Against Goblins, Merfolk, New Horizons, and Zoo I would much rather have Smother maindeck. With the loss of Mystical Tutor, our ANT and Reanimator match-ups become far more manageable and so I think that Smother is a more relavent maindeck card.
Personally though I think that Dark Confidant and Mirri's Guile are meant for this deck. You get another body to hold a Jitte, you get card advantage, and at the very least Bob is going to eat removal, allowing the evasive creatures to swing through. Mirri's Guile isn't bad on its own either with all of the fetches we play, and card selection allows for less Dark Ritual topdecks late game.
In the sinkhole-less deck I still use wastelands as a 3-4 of just because they slow the game down and are a main deck answer to troublesome nonbasic lands. Seems to me that sinkhole isn't as effective in the current meta as it used to be. People hold on to it too dearly because its a legendary tempo/disruption card and that it probably cost them a fortune. When most decks you face race your 3cc drops with their 1cc drops, smothers are much more effective than sinkholes by far.
Also, main deck Extirpates are so underrated. Best used on a dual land in the early game. I use 7-12 fetch lands in most of my decks (ug tresh, naya sligh, eva) and if 4 of my dual lands were to be removed from the game, I would be seriously screwed. I think that using extirpate MD would justify sinkholes.
PS: my sideboard answer to aggro is 3 Perish... and it works wonders
I don't think you understand it; you can kill the Hierarch AND a land at the same time for only 2 mana. Why? Because of Snuff Out. At the same time it makes up for a very early Stalker. Snuff Out also has a great synergy with Shade because you don't need the mana to get rid of an opposing creature, which means you can fully make use of Shades pumping ability when attacking.
I was never suggesting to remove Snuff Out, I know how powerful it is. I was merely suggesting that there are better options to Sinkhole and was responding to a closed arguement about Noble Hierarch and tempo gains. Bringing Snuff Out into one side of the equation would be like adding Daze to the other side of the equation. Plus, if you are playing 4x Sinkhole you most likely only have 6-8 removal and using one on a Noble Hierarch seems like a waste to me.
I'm not literally suggesting that Smother should replace Sinkhole as a 4 of. I am saying that a combination of more removal and another two drop would allow the deck to see greater success in the current meta than Sinkhole.
Do as much as possible on any given turn. You do not want to play reactively. Make your opponent answer your threats and keep on swinging if they are unable to. Play your disruption intelligently and use your life total as a resource. Sometimes using that Snuff Out on a Birds of Paradise is a very good call when you have a Sinkhole or Wasteland to back it up. Sometimes it is not the best idea, for example when a Thoughtseize reveals a mana heavy hand with little to no threats or blockers. Determining which of your opponent’s resources is in short supply is the first step in making the most of your disruption. Playing Eva Green properly takes some practice, but the deck is very powerful and its disruptive strategy is intriguing.
Yes, it is a tempo card. There isn't a LD strategy in the deck, but a tempo strategy. Destroying lands is only one way that you can gain tempo and isn't always the most effective. For example, killing a Noble Hierarch instead of a land is a much more effective way to gain tempo in that situation. So the question becomes; is Sinkhole the most effective way to gain tempo against the current meta?
I'd argue that in most cases that it is not the most effective way. The extremely tight curves that all of the top decks have in addition to cheap card selection and acceleration that allows for quick tempo recovery means that Sinkhole is not as good as it could be.
I'd propose that even Smother would be a better option than Sinkhole in certain metas. Against Goblins, Merfolk, New Horizons, and Zoo I would much rather have Smother maindeck. With the loss of Mystical Tutor, our ANT and Reanimator match-ups become far more manageable and so I think that Smother is a more relavent maindeck card.
This is true, against some decks Sinkhole isn't the most effective card you can play; Merfolk and Goblins especially point this out. However, I feel when you get into this point it becomes more of a meta-decision for the deck rather than a switch you should advocate to all players of the deck. At this point though, when you're removing main parts of the deck that aren't working in your meta, you should probably be asking yourself, "is Eva Green the right call for my meta?" instead of just "Is Sinkhole the right call for my Meta?"
I mean you just listed several bad match-ups; Zoo, New Horizons, and (depending on the build of each deck) Goblins are all unfavorable, so if you were going into a meta full of these decks, I'd suggest bringing something else instead of bringing this deck minus Sinkholes.
That said, I'd also like to point out that Land Destruction is very good in the Zoo match-up, so I'm a little confused of why you listed Zoo as a reason to remove Sinkhole for Smother. Land Destruction not only slows Zoo down, which we need to do to win, but also shrinks their early-game creatures like Wild Nacatl, Kird Ape, and Loam Lion in the builds that run it. Zoo runs a very fragile mana-base, and this is what you should be trying to exploit. It's very easy to cut Zoo off an entire color with well-played Sinkholes and Wastelands, especially since Zoo players tend to keep more mana-light hands than other decks since they need early-game business spells, and can't afford to keep a land-heavy hand with only 2 or 3 threats.
Merfolk is also very favorable for us, so there isn't much need to make large considerations for them like removing main-deck Sinkholes. Sure, the card isn't as good against them, but you should be winning that match, despite this fact. I also never had too much of a problem with ANT and the majority of other Storm combo decks.
@Jamis: That's the point I was making in my edit... In an environment such as this, is it a good idea to cut a significant portion of our game plan rather than switching decks outright?
I say, emphatically, no.
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This is true, against some decks Sinkhole isn't the most effective card you can play; Merfolk and Goblins especially point this out. However, I feel when you get into this point it becomes more of a meta-decision for the deck rather than a switch you should advocate to all players of the deck. At this point though, when you're removing main parts of the deck that aren't working in your meta, you should probably be asking yourself, "is Eva Green the right call for my meta?" instead of just "Is Sinkhole the right call for my Meta?"
I mean you just listed several bad match-ups; Zoo, New Horizons, and (depending on the build of each deck) Goblins are all unfavorable, so if you were going into a meta full of these decks, I'd suggest bringing something else instead of bringing this deck minus Sinkholes.
That said, I'd also like to point out that Land Destruction is very good in the Zoo match-up, so I'm a little confused of why you listed Zoo as a reason to remove Sinkhole for Smother. Land Destruction not only slows Zoo down, which we need to do to win, but also shrinks their early-game creatures like Wild Nacatl, Kird Ape, and Loam Lion in the builds that run it. Zoo runs a very fragile mana-base, and this is what you should be trying to exploit. It's very easy to cut Zoo off an entire color with well-played Sinkholes and Wastelands, especially since Zoo players tend to keep more mana-light hands than other decks since they need early-game business spells, and can't afford to keep a land-heavy hand with only 2 or 3 threats.
Merfolk is also very favorable for us, so there isn't much need to make large considerations for them like removing main-deck Sinkholes. Sure, the card isn't as good against them, but you should be winning that match, despite this fact. I also never had too much of a problem with ANT and the majority of other Storm combo decks.
I would say that in the established section of this forum we should be talking about building this deck for THE meta. That is, building it against the general consensus of top decks from major tournaments. After making a build that has the greatest win percentages against the top decks, it should be easy to tailor the deck for your local metagame.
With zoo, most optimized lists are moving away from playing kird ape and loam lion. Wild Nactl is the only land oriented card that is played as a 4 of and generally is complimented by 2 of the aforementioned options. In addition, with 21 lands, an average casting cost of just over 1, and 12 fetches per deck, there is little chance of a Sinkhole sewering your opponent. You are correct that zoo does tend to keep land light hands, but I really don't see enough of a benefit to try and disrupt their mana-base like that.
I personally think that this deck minus sinkholes is a great way to play, and you can still call it Eva Green without sinkhole. It's a tempo gameplan and you can definitely play tempo in other ways. Sinkhole has lost its usefulness to other cards as the format has gotten faster, mana-bases more robust, and card selection cheaper.
I'm not so convinced. I played in a Legacy tournament a few weeks back piloting a typical Zoo build and Wastelands were murder, considering the deck only runs 3 basics. I understand that most cards in the deck cost 1, but it still wasn't pretty. I can't imagine how it would've been facing Sinkholes AND Wastelands.
Wasn't liking the Mother of Runes and found Tidehollow to force (or steal) removal much better.
Not as agressive as EvaGreen obviously, but more controlling and maximizes the effectiveness of the LD package.
I am loving this deck.
There's one selection I'm not sure about... Swords vs Snuff Out. There's a lot of situations where Snuff Out is just plain better, but if you're playing against other black decks / dredge / reanimator, swords seems to shine...
Here's the way I see it:
Landstill w/ Dreadnought (Snuff Out > Swords)
Landstill w/ Tombstalker (Snuff Out < Swords)
Elves (Snuff Out > Swords)
Ravager (Snuff Out > Swords)
Mirror (Snuff Out < Swords)
Red Stompy (Snuff Out > Swords)
MBA (Snuff Out < Swords)
POX (Snuff Out < Swords)
Enchantress (Snuff Out > Swords)
Thresh (Snuff Out > Swords)
Friggorid (Snuff Out < Swords)
New Horizons (Snuff Out > Swords)
Stax (Snuff Out > Swords)
Reanimator (Snuff Out < Swords)
Zoo (Snuff Out > Swords)
Bant (Snuff Out > Swords)
Goblins (Snuff Out > Swords)
43 Lands (Snuff Out > Swords)
Faeries (Snuff Out > Swords)
Team America (Snuff Out < Swords)
@Johnny:
Assuming your list is accurate, you've got 7 out of 20 where Swords is better. I'd play a 3/1 or 2/2 split (favoring Snuff Out), and then put one or two swords in the side. Bear in mind, though, that most of those matchups that you listed with Swords better are already in our favor anyway (at least in terms of the green splash).
Still think the green splash is better, but let us know how your build pans out...
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When in doubt, swords to plowshare. Although I posted the list, I didn't get to test it much. Also, how does stoneforge mystic + Jitte sound main deck?
3-4 Perish in the sideboard just got better since you don't run goyfs anymore. Yay for aggro matchups.
All of my previous versions have had Sylvan Library instead of Mirri's Guile and my last couple of versions I've tinkered with the numbers of Tombstalker, Snuff Out, Smother, and Nantuko Shade but generally the deck has stayed pretty much the same. The current number of Tombstalkers might be a little heavy for the number of Mirri's Guile, but that's something that I am still testing.
I have only played this in local tournaments placing 2nd, Top 4 and Top 8 the only three times I've played Eva Green with Bob. Normally these tournaments are between 20 and 30 people, so not huge. We have a pretty good base for testing Legacy with most major decks represented. A slight bias to aggro is present with multiple Merfolk, Zoo and Goblin decks being run.
Burn and Zoo will thank you kindly for handing them the game after you deal so much damage to yourself by fetching lands, thoughtseizing, using Dark Confidant and then taking a hit for 4 damage from your "free" Snuff Out.
I've nearly given up on this deck because of these problems and totally reconfigured it with less life-loss and more life-gain (Vampire Nighthawk and Umezawa's Jitte are a good start).
StP also serves double duty when you are getting your face melted and you need that extra life by hitting your own creatures. That extra bit of life may be all you need to win the game in those matchups.
I like your decklist very much. Not only that it provides library manipulation (I really like Mirri's Guile next to Dark Confidant), but also reacts to the metashift towards aggro with 10 removal spells (including 4 pseudo-removal with Nighthawk).
I know your opinion on Sinkhole. Although I have two questions:
-Why aren't you playing Umezawa's Jitte?
-How do you deal with Planeswalkers?
What would you say to the following changes:
-1 Thoughtseize
-1 Smother
-1 Tombstalker
+2 Maelstrom Pulse
+1 Umezawa's Jitte
Cheers
Thanks for the comments. You hit the cards I considered flexible spots right on the head. I have been debating the need for 6, one mana discard for a while now, and whether or not 4 tombstalker is too many.
I currently do not possess any Jittes, and I have yet to test with it. I felt that adding an equipment, which does not immediately help with tempo, might have been strictly worse than adding another quality threat. That being said, I know that Jitte is a house and that I should at least test it, especially running Bob.
As for Planeswalkers, I have only ever ran into Jace, the Mind Sculptor and even then only in very limited numbers. While he can be a problem if he lands and bounces a tombstalker, I find that against most decks running Jace it is very possible to land multiple threats and just beat him down. If I start to see Jace or other planeswalkers in greater numbers I will consider Maelstrom Pulse. What is your experience with Planeswalkers in Legacy?
I think my next round of testing will involve playing around with Jittes, Pulse and possibly another Mirri's Guile in those slots that you pointed out.
I totally shifted to Eva White just because the LD package is so devastating in combination with the added disruption of Tidehollow Sculler. I currently run the same list except for thoughtseize which I feel fits more since iv taken out Snuff Outs for Plowshares. As much as I love Snuff Out, StP is universal and the deck already swaps out some of its speed for more stability and control. Its explosiveness, however, remains.
I totally shifted to Eva White just because the LD package is so devastating in combination with the added disruption of Tidehollow Sculler. I currently run the same list except for thoughtseize which I feel fits more since iv taken out Snuff Outs for Plowshares. As much as I love Snuff Out, StP is universal and the deck already swaps out some of its speed for more stability and control. Its explosiveness, however, remains.
I think a good sideboard is what is left to work on for this deck essentially. I don't know a lot of white sb cards.
Did you see my list on the last page? I'm LOVING this build. I've since cut 1 tombstalker, 1 Scrubland and one vindicate to add 2 Inquisition of Kozilek and one swamp. I find it's better to maximize dark ritual's potentcy. Was also tired of multiple tombstalkers. I think my SB is pretty solid so far. We'll see how it goes.
Nice list. I think 4 Tombstalker is too much, since you won't be able to cast more than 1 or 2 anyway so you rarely want to see more than 2 in your hand (I once had Cabal Therapy named Tombstalker hit me while I had 3 of them in my hand, ouch).
My changes:
-1 Tombstalker +1 Dark Confidant
-1 Smother +1 Mirri's Guile
I'd also like to include 2x Deed in mainboard, as it's damn good in my meta (lots of aggro).
EDIT: plus, it's a lot cheaper than version with Sinkholes
Thanks for the suggestions. I do feel like 3 Mirri's Guile is a safer number, but I am having a hard time justifying putting it in for something else. Definitely taking out a Tombstalker will help with Bob regardless of having a Guile or not so I might just start with that.
I will be testing some variations with yours and JohnnyL's suggestions in the next few weeks. My next Legacy tournament is on Aug 8th and I'll post with my final list and match-ups.
Regarding the White splash; I realize that Land Destruction becomes a major focus once you add Vindicate, but is there any room for Gerrad's Verdict? Maybe instead of Tidehollow Sculler since he is only a 2/2 and probably isn't attacking unless the opponent has a clear board?
The main problem with Tidehollow right now is that there are too many decks with a decent number of creature threats. In a combo/control heavy meta he would be great at applying pressure and stripping your opponent's hand, but right now he gets blocked and killed by too many decks. I think it is a meta decision but from the list above i'd suggest:
-4 Tidehollow Sculler
-1 Tombstalker
+2 Stillmoon Cavalier
+2 Gerrard's Verdict
+1 Inquisition of Kozilek
What do people think about Ankh of Mishra for decks like 43 lands? We don't really rely on using too many lands. The only way it'd really hurt us is fetchlands. I think it'd work well with our LD strategy - they play lands, take 2 damage. We blow their lands up, they're forced to play more land, taking more damage. The only drawback I can potentially see is it'd be a bad topdeck lategame. Thoughts?
Did you see my list on the last page? I'm LOVING this build. I've since cut 1 tombstalker, 1 Scrubland and one vindicate to add 2 Inquisition of Kozilek and one swamp. I find it's better to maximize dark ritual's potentcy. Was also tired of multiple tombstalkers. I think my SB is pretty solid so far. We'll see how it goes.
It's funny how we think alike. I was trying to fit 2 Kozileks in to smooth out rituals but didnt know what to take out aside from 1 Tombstalker. Aside from that, im still torn between snuff out and StP. I was also going to try 3 bayous and cut the plain but I can't bring myself to cut on vindicates. I ended up cutting 1 tombstalker and 1 vamp nh for 2 Kozileks and 1 bayou and 1 plain for 2 swamps.
Tidehollow Sculler is exactly what you want for this deck, a discard with a body. 4 Swords and 4 Vindicates will clear you a path assuming your opponent has lands, or better yet, has a hand.
This doesn't make the deck any less aggressive and trades off the disruption of sinkhole for a more secure mid-game.
Also, you should still play Wasteland in a version without Sinkhole since there are always occasions where hitting the right land is more important than hitting multiple lands. It also fuels Tombstalker which is pretty big.
I mentioned this in an earlier post...
LD is a major strategy for this deck, and when you cut Sinkhole you take that strategy off the table; and especially for games two and three, Wasteland just becomes a colorless land, since they'll likely go for basics first anyway.
I don't advocate cutting LD from the deck, but if you were to cut Sinkhole, then I'd cut down on the Wastelands too. Wasteland takes on more of a control role, where we're still aggro/tempo, and becomes superfluous to the strategy of the deck.
I'd consider running just Wasteland in the slower versions, like Vesper Green (with Bob/Top, etc.), but for the faster versions it's Sinkhole+Wasteland or nothing (and taking out the LD strategy makes the deck worse imo...).
Edit: It's strange to me that so many people seem to take out Sinkhole first when sideboarding... From a play theory p.o.v. it's quite detrimental to the explosiveness of the deck. LD is one of the most powerful strategies available to us, and any mid-game inconsistencies can be mitigated with smart play and smart mulligans.
There are some matchups where LD is less potent, like combo or aggro that's outright faster than us (and in the current meta I can see that happening pretty often), but wouldn't it be smarter to just switch to a deck that's better in the current environment, than to neuter Eva Green in an attempt to adapt?
I am John Galt.
I don't understand how LD can be a "major strategy" for the deck when you only have 8 slots dedicated to land destruction. And unless you hit a land or two off of Hymn to Tourach, you really can't call it a strategy.
Most decks don't lose very much tempo from a single Sinkhole or Wasteland. Noble Hierarch, Aether Vial, Brainstorm, Top, etc. are all very heavily played and neuter your LD strategy unless you end up digging out 3+ LD cards.
LD is a major strategy because it compliments our tempo plan. Sinkhole goes not only with Wasteland, but also Dark Ritual, Snuff Out, and your effective creatures. The LD isn't in there to mana-screw the opponent like many people assume, but to out-play your opponent. Sure, it is possible that the Sinkholes and Wastelands alone may be enough to mana-screw an opponent on occasion, and when this happens, it's very nice, but the goal is just to set an opponent back 1 turn behind you.
You mention Noble Hierarch, Vial, etc. going against your LD plan, and this is true. However, you should also note that when your opponent plays Hierarch, they are building their tempo, so playing Sinkhole still plays the tempo role, but now instead of you being a turn ahead of them, you even it up and stop them from being a turn ahead of you. So yes, playing Sinkhole against these decks doesn't let you out-play your opponent like it does in other matches, but it does stop your opponent from out-playing you.
[180 classic cube]
Yes, it is a tempo card. There isn't a LD strategy in the deck, but a tempo strategy. Destroying lands is only one way that you can gain tempo and isn't always the most effective. For example, killing a Noble Hierarch instead of a land is a much more effective way to gain tempo in that situation. So the question becomes; is Sinkhole the most effective way to gain tempo against the current meta?
I'd argue that in most cases that it is not the most effective way. The extremely tight curves that all of the top decks have in addition to cheap card selection and acceleration that allows for quick tempo recovery means that Sinkhole is not as good as it could be.
I'd propose that even Smother would be a better option than Sinkhole in certain metas. Against Goblins, Merfolk, New Horizons, and Zoo I would much rather have Smother maindeck. With the loss of Mystical Tutor, our ANT and Reanimator match-ups become far more manageable and so I think that Smother is a more relavent maindeck card.
Personally though I think that Dark Confidant and Mirri's Guile are meant for this deck. You get another body to hold a Jitte, you get card advantage, and at the very least Bob is going to eat removal, allowing the evasive creatures to swing through. Mirri's Guile isn't bad on its own either with all of the fetches we play, and card selection allows for less Dark Ritual topdecks late game.
Also, main deck Extirpates are so underrated. Best used on a dual land in the early game. I use 7-12 fetch lands in most of my decks (ug tresh, naya sligh, eva) and if 4 of my dual lands were to be removed from the game, I would be seriously screwed. I think that using extirpate MD would justify sinkholes.
PS: my sideboard answer to aggro is 3 Perish... and it works wonders
I was never suggesting to remove Snuff Out, I know how powerful it is. I was merely suggesting that there are better options to Sinkhole and was responding to a closed arguement about Noble Hierarch and tempo gains. Bringing Snuff Out into one side of the equation would be like adding Daze to the other side of the equation. Plus, if you are playing 4x Sinkhole you most likely only have 6-8 removal and using one on a Noble Hierarch seems like a waste to me.
I'm not literally suggesting that Smother should replace Sinkhole as a 4 of. I am saying that a combination of more removal and another two drop would allow the deck to see greater success in the current meta than Sinkhole.
This is true, against some decks Sinkhole isn't the most effective card you can play; Merfolk and Goblins especially point this out. However, I feel when you get into this point it becomes more of a meta-decision for the deck rather than a switch you should advocate to all players of the deck. At this point though, when you're removing main parts of the deck that aren't working in your meta, you should probably be asking yourself, "is Eva Green the right call for my meta?" instead of just "Is Sinkhole the right call for my Meta?"
I mean you just listed several bad match-ups; Zoo, New Horizons, and (depending on the build of each deck) Goblins are all unfavorable, so if you were going into a meta full of these decks, I'd suggest bringing something else instead of bringing this deck minus Sinkholes.
That said, I'd also like to point out that Land Destruction is very good in the Zoo match-up, so I'm a little confused of why you listed Zoo as a reason to remove Sinkhole for Smother. Land Destruction not only slows Zoo down, which we need to do to win, but also shrinks their early-game creatures like Wild Nacatl, Kird Ape, and Loam Lion in the builds that run it. Zoo runs a very fragile mana-base, and this is what you should be trying to exploit. It's very easy to cut Zoo off an entire color with well-played Sinkholes and Wastelands, especially since Zoo players tend to keep more mana-light hands than other decks since they need early-game business spells, and can't afford to keep a land-heavy hand with only 2 or 3 threats.
Merfolk is also very favorable for us, so there isn't much need to make large considerations for them like removing main-deck Sinkholes. Sure, the card isn't as good against them, but you should be winning that match, despite this fact. I also never had too much of a problem with ANT and the majority of other Storm combo decks.
[180 classic cube]
I say, emphatically, no.
I am John Galt.
Engineered Plague FTW!
I would say that in the established section of this forum we should be talking about building this deck for THE meta. That is, building it against the general consensus of top decks from major tournaments. After making a build that has the greatest win percentages against the top decks, it should be easy to tailor the deck for your local metagame.
With zoo, most optimized lists are moving away from playing kird ape and loam lion. Wild Nactl is the only land oriented card that is played as a 4 of and generally is complimented by 2 of the aforementioned options. In addition, with 21 lands, an average casting cost of just over 1, and 12 fetches per deck, there is little chance of a Sinkhole sewering your opponent. You are correct that zoo does tend to keep land light hands, but I really don't see enough of a benefit to try and disrupt their mana-base like that.
I personally think that this deck minus sinkholes is a great way to play, and you can still call it Eva Green without sinkhole. It's a tempo gameplan and you can definitely play tempo in other ways. Sinkhole has lost its usefulness to other cards as the format has gotten faster, mana-bases more robust, and card selection cheaper.
4 Tidehollow Sculler
4 Nantuko Shade
4 Vampire Nighthawk
4 Tombstalker
Spells (24)
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Dark Ritual
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Sinkhole
4 Vindicate
4 Wasteland
4 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Scrubland
1 Plain
3 Swamp
4 Engineered Plague
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Seal of Cleansing
2 Ruined Halo
Wasn't liking the Mother of Runes and found Tidehollow to force (or steal) removal much better.
Not as agressive as EvaGreen obviously, but more controlling and maximizes the effectiveness of the LD package.
I am loving this deck.
There's one selection I'm not sure about... Swords vs Snuff Out. There's a lot of situations where Snuff Out is just plain better, but if you're playing against other black decks / dredge / reanimator, swords seems to shine...
Here's the way I see it:
Landstill w/ Dreadnought (Snuff Out > Swords)
Landstill w/ Tombstalker (Snuff Out < Swords)
Elves (Snuff Out > Swords)
Ravager (Snuff Out > Swords)
Mirror (Snuff Out < Swords)
Red Stompy (Snuff Out > Swords)
MBA (Snuff Out < Swords)
POX (Snuff Out < Swords)
Enchantress (Snuff Out > Swords)
Thresh (Snuff Out > Swords)
Friggorid (Snuff Out < Swords)
New Horizons (Snuff Out > Swords)
Stax (Snuff Out > Swords)
Reanimator (Snuff Out < Swords)
Zoo (Snuff Out > Swords)
Bant (Snuff Out > Swords)
Goblins (Snuff Out > Swords)
43 Lands (Snuff Out > Swords)
Faeries (Snuff Out > Swords)
Team America (Snuff Out < Swords)
What Do?
Assuming your list is accurate, you've got 7 out of 20 where Swords is better. I'd play a 3/1 or 2/2 split (favoring Snuff Out), and then put one or two swords in the side. Bear in mind, though, that most of those matchups that you listed with Swords better are already in our favor anyway (at least in terms of the green splash).
Still think the green splash is better, but let us know how your build pans out...
I am John Galt.
3-4 Perish in the sideboard just got better since you don't run goyfs anymore. Yay for aggro matchups.
In EvaGreen, if you could play swords to plowshares for
This is the list I am currently testing:
4 Vampire Nighthawk
4 Tombstalker
3 Dark Confidant
2 Nantuko Shade
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Dark Ritual
4 Thoughtsieze
3 Snuff Out
3 Smother
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Mirri's Guile
4 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Marsh Flats
4 Swamp
2 Forest
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Engineered Plague
3 Perish
3 Krosan Grip
2 Pernicious Deed
All of my previous versions have had Sylvan Library instead of Mirri's Guile and my last couple of versions I've tinkered with the numbers of Tombstalker, Snuff Out, Smother, and Nantuko Shade but generally the deck has stayed pretty much the same. The current number of Tombstalkers might be a little heavy for the number of Mirri's Guile, but that's something that I am still testing.
I have only played this in local tournaments placing 2nd, Top 4 and Top 8 the only three times I've played Eva Green with Bob. Normally these tournaments are between 20 and 30 people, so not huge. We have a pretty good base for testing Legacy with most major decks represented. A slight bias to aggro is present with multiple Merfolk, Zoo and Goblin decks being run.
Burn and Zoo will thank you kindly for handing them the game after you deal so much damage to yourself by fetching lands, thoughtseizing, using Dark Confidant and then taking a hit for 4 damage from your "free" Snuff Out.
I've nearly given up on this deck because of these problems and totally reconfigured it with less life-loss and more life-gain (Vampire Nighthawk and Umezawa's Jitte are a good start).
StP also serves double duty when you are getting your face melted and you need that extra life by hitting your own creatures. That extra bit of life may be all you need to win the game in those matchups.
-Frog
My Kamigawa cube.
My Mirage Cube
Thanks for the comments. You hit the cards I considered flexible spots right on the head. I have been debating the need for 6, one mana discard for a while now, and whether or not 4 tombstalker is too many.
I currently do not possess any Jittes, and I have yet to test with it. I felt that adding an equipment, which does not immediately help with tempo, might have been strictly worse than adding another quality threat. That being said, I know that Jitte is a house and that I should at least test it, especially running Bob.
As for Planeswalkers, I have only ever ran into Jace, the Mind Sculptor and even then only in very limited numbers. While he can be a problem if he lands and bounces a tombstalker, I find that against most decks running Jace it is very possible to land multiple threats and just beat him down. If I start to see Jace or other planeswalkers in greater numbers I will consider Maelstrom Pulse. What is your experience with Planeswalkers in Legacy?
I think my next round of testing will involve playing around with Jittes, Pulse and possibly another Mirri's Guile in those slots that you pointed out.
Where's the splashing white section? I belong there I think.
4 Tidehollow Sculler
4 Nantuko Shade
4 Vampire Nighthawk
4 Tombstalker
Spells (24)
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
4 Dark Ritual
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Vindicate
4 Wasteland
4 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Scrubland
1 Plains
3 Swamp
4 Engineered Plague
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Perish
2 Extirpate
2 Runed Halo
I think a good sideboard is what is left to work on for this deck essentially. I don't know a lot of white sb cards.
Did you see my list on the last page? I'm LOVING this build. I've since cut 1 tombstalker, 1 Scrubland and one vindicate to add 2 Inquisition of Kozilek and one swamp. I find it's better to maximize dark ritual's potentcy. Was also tired of multiple tombstalkers. I think my SB is pretty solid so far. We'll see how it goes.
Thanks for the suggestions. I do feel like 3 Mirri's Guile is a safer number, but I am having a hard time justifying putting it in for something else. Definitely taking out a Tombstalker will help with Bob regardless of having a Guile or not so I might just start with that.
I will be testing some variations with yours and JohnnyL's suggestions in the next few weeks. My next Legacy tournament is on Aug 8th and I'll post with my final list and match-ups.
Regarding the White splash; I realize that Land Destruction becomes a major focus once you add Vindicate, but is there any room for Gerrad's Verdict? Maybe instead of Tidehollow Sculler since he is only a 2/2 and probably isn't attacking unless the opponent has a clear board?
The main problem with Tidehollow right now is that there are too many decks with a decent number of creature threats. In a combo/control heavy meta he would be great at applying pressure and stripping your opponent's hand, but right now he gets blocked and killed by too many decks. I think it is a meta decision but from the list above i'd suggest:
-4 Tidehollow Sculler
-1 Tombstalker
+2 Stillmoon Cavalier
+2 Gerrard's Verdict
+1 Inquisition of Kozilek
It's funny how we think alike. I was trying to fit 2 Kozileks in to smooth out rituals but didnt know what to take out aside from 1 Tombstalker. Aside from that, im still torn between snuff out and StP. I was also going to try 3 bayous and cut the plain but I can't bring myself to cut on vindicates. I ended up cutting 1 tombstalker and 1 vamp nh for 2 Kozileks and 1 bayou and 1 plain for 2 swamps.
Tidehollow Sculler is exactly what you want for this deck, a discard with a body. 4 Swords and 4 Vindicates will clear you a path assuming your opponent has lands, or better yet, has a hand.