Rancor would be for if you wanted to go more aggro oriented, Jitte fills the same niche while also giving you removal and lifegain... since its more flexible it sees play more oft.
That doesnt mean you cant play rancor, but i wouldnt play more than 1-2... Its a godawful topdeck unless youre in a goyfstill.
Against zoo Perish works well, if you expect alot of zoo I'd cut a couple TS and fit in Inquisition or Duress. Lower your snuff out count and put in more removal.
Basically, cut out some of the unneeded suicide effects.
Against merfolk, resolve a Choke and you've basically won.
Rancor would be for if you wanted to go more aggro oriented, Jitte fills the same niche while also giving you removal and lifegain... since its more flexible it sees play more oft.
That doesnt mean you cant play rancor, but i wouldnt play more than 1-2... Its a godawful topdeck unless youre in a goyfstill.
Against zoo Perish works well, if you expect alot of zoo I'd cut a couple TS and fit in Inquisition or Duress. Lower your snuff out count and put in more removal.
Basically, cut out some of the unneeded suicide effects.
Against merfolk, resolve a Choke and you've basically won.
I don't think that's true at all... Against Blue control decks like thresh, yes Choke is amazing. What about a card called Aether Vial??
and don't forget mutavault, and the other merfs they've droped prior to your turn 3 choke play. maybe sooner off a rit, maybe later for daze protection)
don't get me wrong, it's still a strong play. but hardly game ending. if there were a lot of zoo, merfs, and goblins, i'd sideboard deeds in a heart beat.
1.) Anyone who thinks cancel is viable should be shot. in the face. with a hammer.
2.) You misunderstand, what I was suggesting was the total exclusion of Spellstutter Sprite, because it just isnt that good anymore.
3.) Understand, Dredge is not really a Magic: The Gathering deck. When a card is playable in it, it doesn't mean it's a tournament playable card. It means it's playable in whatever crazy fantasy world that Dredge operates in.
Has anyone tried berserk? Can make a tombstalker swing for 10, or use it end of turn and kill a creature of thiers for 1 green. Any thoughts?
I played Berserk for a while. Started with three, then dropped to two, then dropped it all together. It does make for some blowouts, but in practice it was very situational and wound up a dead card in many games.
You may have a different build, though, and in more aggroish builds it may shine. I just had too few creatures to make it consistent.
Edit: Also, you may want to read the card:
Cast Berserk only before the combat damage step.
Target creature gains trample and gets +X/+0 until end of turn, where X is its power. At the beginning of the next end step, destroy that creature if it attacked this turn.
have you ever tried phyrexian arena instead of bob? i know its 3-4 creatures less, but there arent many enchantment hate on MD at least, and that 1 card extra every turn just makes it so much better, and you dont have the life loss of bob, you dont show the card(so you dont give any information) and there are too many creature hate on legacy.
I don't think Berserk will make the cut as the card is just too situational and creature dependent.
We always talk about Zoo being extremely problematic, but not anyone stands up and comes with solutions. We are NOT, read: NOT playing Suicide. Of course, unless you play Snuff Out you're playing suicide. Just forget about that card.
Second: we are not the only deck that runs fetchlands. Legacy is almost dominated by fetchlands. I personally think 6 fetches are enough for Eva Green.
Third: we have the option to cut Thoughtseize for Inquisition of Kozilek and Duress, but Thoughtseize (or some kind of split) shouldn't be a problem to run against Zoo.
We have Deathmark, Doomblade, Smother etc. Especially Deathmark seems like a godess card for Eva Green in todays meta. Nearly every creature we should concern about is green or white. Gatekeeper as a 2-off (together with our discard) gets rid of non-white/green creatures. We have our own creatures to fight, including a perfect blocker and lifegainer -> Nighthawk. We are one of the few decks that are immune to opposing Deathmarks (of course except for Goyf). It's not the opposing creatures we should concern about in Eva Green, it's the amount of creatures.
The thing I really dislike is that we don't run any library manipulation and/or some kind of card advantage like Bob. Vesper Green does; therefore it doesn't run one card: Sinkhole. There's a lot to say about Sinkhole, but lets face it: it doesn't cut it anymore in todays legacy metagame. Especially without library manipulation it's often a wasted/dead draw.
Cards to think about:
Pernicious Deed.
Deathmark.
Sensei's Divining Top.
Smallpox.
Dark Confidant.
And probably more.
Go play vesper green. Eva Green is a mid-range suicide deck. if you are saying we are NOT and then saying not to play snuff out and THEN suggesting deed and Confidant+Top you're playing aggro-control. Not Eva Green. Sinkhole? Integral to the tempo strategy of suicide. Same with Snuff Out.
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Asking people to remove quotes in their signatures is tyranny! If I can't say something just because someone's feelings are hurt then no one would ever be able to say anything! Political correctness is stupid.
maybe you could post a list with bob/SDT, actually never tried it yet, but its on my mind, i really think that the CA its actually really important nowadays, and yes its a lil bit more controllish
I don't think Berserk will make the cut as the card is just too situational and creature dependent.
We always talk about Zoo being extremely problematic, but not anyone stands up and comes with solutions. We are NOT, read: NOT playing Suicide. Of course, unless you play Snuff Out you're playing suicide. Just forget about that card.
Eva Green is a suicide deck. If youre deck isnt suicide it isnt Eva Green.
Dont play Eva green in zoo (aggro) oriented metas.
Its that easy.
Second: we are not the only deck that runs fetchlands. Legacy is almost dominated by fetchlands. I personally think 6 fetches are enough for Eva Green.
We are, however, one of the decks that runs Tombstalker.
8 Fetches insure that you will be able easily play one whenever you want.
Third: we have the option to cut Thoughtseize for Inquisition of Kozilek and Duress, but Thoughtseize (or some kind of split) shouldn't be a problem to run against Zoo.
I dont think Duress is really an option. The format will likely shift towards aggro. The only big things Inquisition wont hit is FoW and ANT. 3/2 TS/IoK split seems the best if you want a split. 5 1cc discard has felt like the correct number to me for a long time.
We have Deathmark, Doomblade, Smother etc. Especially Deathmark seems like a godess card for Eva Green in todays meta. Nearly every creature we should concern about is green or white. Gatekeeper as a 2-off (together with our discard) gets rid of non-white/green creatures. We have our own creatures to fight, including a perfect blocker and lifegainer -> Nighthawk. We are one of the few decks that are immune to opposing Deathmarks (of course except for Goyf). It's not the opposing creatures we should concern about in Eva Green, it's the amount of creatures.
If you want to move away from being Suicide dont play Nighthawk... Splash White and play KoR/Doran/Finks. Nighthawk doesnt stick around long enough or he sits there untapped stalling out the red zone, and Zoo/Goblins etc win the inevitability war a lot better than we do.
blah have to go will be back later to edit and add more.
I would like to add that Inquisition does not hit Natural Order, Charbelcher, or Empty the Warrens. These cards are bombs that are hard to deal with in any other way. Not being able to hit FoW is HUGE in my opinion... I don't agree with the decision to replace Duress with IoK; I still run 4 Thoughtseize 1 Duress.
I don't think there is any excuse for not running 4 Thoughtseize either. Thoughtseize is the best targeted discard in the game.
Is what I played yesterday at a local GPT yesterday.
Round 1 vs Natural Order Bant
It was never really close in games one or two. For every threat I'd draw (nevermind 2/4 of my Wastelands were in the graveyard) he'd draw two, or so it seemed. He just steamrolled me.
Round 2 vs Fish
An early Maelstrom Pulse on Aether Vial games 1 and 3 were pretty clutch for me, along with turn 3 Choke pretty much sealed the deal.
Round 3 vs RDW
Somehow, I managed to race him. I boarded out the Thoughtseizes for Inquisitions and managed to nab key spells both games 2 and 3.
Round 4 vs Mono black
Yeah, I don't know how this guy was 2-1 at the time, but literally NOTHING eventful happened over the course of the whole match. Turn 2 and 3 Goyfs sealed the deal
Semis vs Reanimator
I scooped to the guy when I saw pairings - he needed a shot at the byes more than I did.
How long has Eva Green been around? I've been thinking to slowly star investing in this deck over next couple of months, since it's pretty damn expensive, so some "confirmation" that it's staying for a while would be nice (I've only been playing magic for couple of months and I got some cheaper stuff like Tombstalker, Nantuko, etc).
Suicide Black decks like this have been around since the beginning of Legacy. Eva Green has been around since Tarmogoyf was printed. This deck will stick around for a loooooooong time. The only thing that would severely hurt this deck would be the banning of a card like Dark Ritual, but I don't see that happening. It is very much a metagame deck, but there will always be a time and place when it is good.
The desire to 'move to Vesper Green' is fine if people want to do it, but it is indeed a different deck. Changing the Eva Green thread into Vesper Green seems wrong. I personally feel like Vesper Green is bad because the deck tries to be control and suicide/aggro at the same time, which just doesn't work out too well against most decks. You will lose a lot of the edge you have over most control decks. Regardless of how people feel about Vesper Green, it should be discussed in a rock-style thread.
As a sidenote, Sinkhole is actually quite good against Zoo. Zoo cannot bounce back from losing 2 lands. I beat Zoo at a GPT last Saturday by blowing up 3 lands in one turn with 2 Sinkholes and a Wasteland, causing him to have no lands in play. I agree that Sinkhole is very bad against Goblins, but that's why I board them out for Engineered Plagues.
@Elminister: Good luck building the deck! It's an awesome deck to play. I completely endorse Nighthawk, but I am skeptical of Deed as a MD card. Just test some and see what you think about them.
Vesper Green is just aggro/control, without being a suicide deck like Eva Green; it doesn't play Snuff Out, nor Sinkhole. Playing Thoughtseize and fetches doesn't mean you're playing Suicide at all. Sinkhole is the card we mostly side-out for different stuff, well too many times (!) because it really doesn't make the difference anymore. Why not cut Sinkhole entirely and make room for other stuff in that 4-slot? 2 Deed, 2 Reanimate...just an idea. Deed feels really nice, especially with Ritual. With Deed, I can make better use of the 'dead' Ritual(s), so Ritual is definately less of a dead draw. In this case, you might not need SDT. Just -4 Sinkhole, +2 Deed, +2 Reanimate. I'm also playing 2 Pulses maindecked. Against Goblins you can go -2 Deed, -1 Reanimate, +3 Engineered Plague. Against Zoo you can go -2 Deed, -2 Reanimate, -2 Pulse, +3 Perish, +2 Jitte, +1 Inquisition/Deathmark...just something like that. Deathmark deserves a spot as well, as it's awesome against almost any deck nowadays, including Zoo. I'd rather draw a Deathmark in the mid game against Zoo instead of a Sinkole as well.
And by the way, I also like Nighthawk and he deserves the full set; it's much better than Hippy nowadays (my opinion anyway).
I didn't realize you were advocating such minor changes. When I think of Vesper Green, I usually think of a full playset of Bob in addition to things like Deed and top. That particular version is a little more like suicide aggro/control, and I don't really like it. Reanimate as a 2-of is an interesting metagame choice that I do like.
I was quite tired, and didn't keep any notes, so all I can give you is the round results:
Round 1: New Horizons 2-0
Round 2: New Horizons 2-1
Round 3: Zoo 1-2
Round 4: Survival 0-2
I can definitively say that New Horizons, at least in its current form, is in our favor. Choke was the lynch-pin in three of the four games I won. After pressing with LD and forcing out a few counters, a well placed Choke sealed the deal. The one loss was because I kept a 1 land hand like a noob...
Zoo and Survival were both difficult, mostly because I couldn't find three Perish before the tourney... The battle of attrition is heavily in their favor.
Couple points: Sinkhole is definitely NOT a dead card in the current meta. One of this deck's strengths is its LD strategy, and there are enough control and tempo decks with fragile mana bases to warrant its continued inclusion. Also, I'm not sure why some of you think to side out sinkhole often, I rarely do, since its so potent... It's only against combo where I need to focus on discard that I move away from LD.
Krosan Grip has lost a bit of its luster with the conspicuous lack of CounterTop (only one of the 23 participants last night played it, and it was in Dreadstill...), so I've moved to Pithing Needle to combat things like Survival and Aether Vial. Good move? Only testing will tell...
My new list for next week will look like this, assuming I get the Perishs:
Sinkhole is definitely NOT a dead card in the current meta. One of this deck's strengths is its LD strategy, and there are enough control and tempo decks with fragile mana bases to warrant its continued inclusion. Also, I'm not sure why some of you think to side out sinkhole often, I rarely do, since its so potent... It's only against combo where I need to focus on discard that I move away from LD.
What do you like Sinkhole against? What do you keep them in against for games two and/or three? What do you sideboard them out against?
I don't understand why some Eva Green players still play Snuff Out; it's really, really bad against zoo, burn and aggro in general (at least nowadays).
It's slightly bad against Zoo, but necessary against the Steppe Lynx versions.
Other aggro, as in what? Non-burn aggro decks? Then it's fine against them.
Burn's irrelevant. Even if there are one to two in a 20-man you'll likely not play against it or can take the match loss and still do well anyways.
It's the only reliable answer to a first-turn Lackey. While goblins aren't the big dogs they once were, they're still likely to show up as a surprise against metas and still have the power to top eight good sized tournaments.
EDIT:
I've been thinking of taking them out myself for more Gatekeepers/Smothers but it has its unique uses against certain decks despite the life loss.
edit:
It's also good against Weathered Wayfarer and Mother of Runes turn on.
What do you like Sinkhole against? What do you keep them in against for games two and/or three? What do you sideboard them out against?
I may be biased, as LD is my favorite strategy, but I try to focus on LD against every deck where its relevant... Which means every deck that isn't faster than me... Which means pretty much every deck but combo... Which has worked well so far.
I only every side out all four against combo, where discard takes precedent, along with hate. I rarely drop more than one against anything else, along with singletons of other cards in the deck.
This deck is founded on consistency, and undercutting that by dropping an entire aspect of the strategy isn't my idea of a winning proposition. Once you take out the Sinkholes, your wastelands become mostly useless, especially game two and three when people will go for basics first.
(Obviously we don't have Stifle to preempt fetches.)
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I swear by my life and my love of it that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine.
I haven't played this deck in a tournament for quite some time, but since my Storm combo deck is no longer legacy legal, I figured this would be the perfect time to bring Eva Green back. I didn't plan on doing a write-up, so I didn't take very good notes, but here's a few things I remember about the match-ups.
Round 1 vs. Mono-black Persecutor Suicide
Game 1, I don't draw many threats; the creatures I do draw get killed by Innocent blood, Gatekeeper, and other creature kill. I lose Game 1.
Game 2, I keep a hand of 2 or 3 land, a Tarmogoyf, a Putrid Leech, 2 Nantuko Shades and possibly another beater. He duresses me turn 1, and I reveal nothing he can take. I then lay a quick beatdown and we move onto game 3.
Game 3, I keep some hand with double Sinkhole, Jitte, Tombstalker, some land and maybe some other card(s). I keep him on one land with Sinkholes and Wastelands. Beatdown follows. I win the round 2-1.
Round 2 vs. Canadian Thresh
I don't remember too much about these games. I know they were pretty exciting to play. I believe in game 1, I disrupt him a lot, but can't follow up with creatures and lose. Game 2, I get turn 1 Hyppie followed by bigger creatures. Game 3 is very back and forth, but I win it at 1 life (feels good). I win 2-1
Round 3 vs. Mono-blue Merfolk
This round was very fast. Game 1, I get turn 1 Nighthawk backed by me killing or forcing him to discard all his creatures. Tombstalker comes online later and he concedes. Game 2, plays out something like Turn 1 Specter, turn 2 Goyf, turn 3 Hymn and Snuff Out making Goyf huge, and winning shortly after. I win 2-0
Round 4 vs. Enchantress
Game 1, I get a bunch of creatures out, but can't swing past Elephant Grass. Eventually, I draw Tamogoyf, swing for a turn and keep making him discard cards until he can't make enough mana for Elephant Grass' cumulative upkeep cost. At that point I swing for way past lethal.
Game 2, I get turn 1 Engineered Plague (Druid) and then beatdown with Goyf while Krosan Gripping an Enchantress's presence. I win 2-0.
Round 5 vs. Zoo
We decide to tie, but play the games for fun anyway. I ended up winning game 1 and 3. IIRC, Tombstalker was an absolute champ both games.
Top 8 vs. UBR Ad nauseum Tendrils Variant
He starts Game 1 with a Duress. I reveal Land, a Nighthawk, a Dark Ritual, a Hymn, and possibly a few other creatures. He takes Hymn. I topdeck Hyppie and play it with Dark Rit. I keep ripping cantrips and land from his hand, and eventually he has a 2-card-hand and can't combo.
At this point, I'm not sure what Tendrils Variant he is since all I saw was an Ill-gotten Gains, some land, and some Cantrips (I thought he might have been UBR Faeries until Hyppie hit IGG). I decide to side in gravehate and side out Snuff Out incase he's playing IGGy Pop. I draw a pretty awesome hand against any other deck, but it lacked discard so I go to 6. I keep a 1 lander with Leyline, Thoughtseize, and double Hymn. I never draw a second land, and he comboes off pretty late in the game (turn 6, or so).
Game 3, I consider keeping Gravehate in, but mulliganing for gravehate seems really bad against him, so I bring in Jitte and 2 Grips (for SDT) instead. I draw something nuts like Dark Rit, Hymn, Thoughtseize, Inquisition, Shade, Land. I rip apart his hand, and then beatdown. I win 2-1.
Top 4 split and I bought a Badlands to try to rebuild my storm deck.
I was extremely happy with how the deck played, and (without trying to sound conceited) I am positive this is the optimal build of the deck (meta-decisions taken into consideration, of course). Hypnotic Specter was MVP, and turn 1 Hyppie was good all day; turn 3 Hyppie was even good. I plan on bringing this deck out a lot more often now, as it seems to be the perfect meta-call right now (tons of Enchantress, very little Zoo, and Merfolk has returned).
Thanks! Putrid Leech has been awesome every time he's shown up. However, I don't think I'd ever want to run more than just 1.
Reanimate is certainly an option to replace it, since it fills the same role (Goyf #5) and causes less life-loss while also being easier to cast as well. But Leech is also an great turn 2 play, where as Reanimate needs a creature to hit the 'yard first, which I see being very relevant in this deck since it's trying to capitalize on the early game.
I also like that Putrid Leech goes better with Summoning Trap. Using Putrid Leech as Goyf #5 instead of Reanimate also lets you have two creatures out at once, where if you're reanimating your own Tarmogoyf, you can only have one Tarmogoyf out at once; I realize this will only be relevant in very few situations, but the fact that it could be relevant should be taken into consideration.
Overall, I like Reanimate, but in this build, I like Putrid Leech better. In a deck that sacrifices the tempo aspect of the deck for a more long-term plan, Reanimate would probably be the better choice.
Reanimate is certainly an option to replace it, since it fills the same role (Goyf #5) and causes less life-loss while also being easier to cast as well.
Reanimate is nice since it can hit opp's yard but, I'd also highly recommend Unearth as it can also cycle, and is less likely to be a dead draw when you don't have a target ;).
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Trade thread under reconstruction. Because you can't spell slaughter without laughter.
Mind Twist would be explosive on turn 1/2 with Ritual; that's why you'd want 3/4 copies and probably make some kind of split (3-2) with Hymn, but I'm not sure how that would work out. It's definately an interesting card for us if it were unbanned.
I was a bit experimenting with a Lich build and I came up with this list:
That doesnt mean you cant play rancor, but i wouldnt play more than 1-2... Its a godawful topdeck unless youre in a goyfstill.
Against zoo Perish works well, if you expect alot of zoo I'd cut a couple TS and fit in Inquisition or Duress. Lower your snuff out count and put in more removal.
Basically, cut out some of the unneeded suicide effects.
Against merfolk, resolve a Choke and you've basically won.
Mimeoplasm Midrange, CHAINER CHAINER HIGH VOLTAGE
Rafiq of the Astral Slide, 67land.dec Child of Alara, Gisela <3 Sunforger
TRADE!?WUBRGMy Pauper Cube
Sek'Kuar, Deathkeeper, Phage the Uncastable, Azusa Lost but Stompy, Crosis Combo Breaker, All-In-Skullbriar, Rafiq/Jenara ETB army, Hazezon Swarm, Glissa Voltron!, Jarad Zombie Tribal, Zedruu Pillowfort, Reaper King Artifact Shenanagains
I don't think that's true at all... Against Blue control decks like thresh, yes Choke is amazing. What about a card called Aether Vial??
don't get me wrong, it's still a strong play. but hardly game ending. if there were a lot of zoo, merfs, and goblins, i'd sideboard deeds in a heart beat.
I played Berserk for a while. Started with three, then dropped to two, then dropped it all together. It does make for some blowouts, but in practice it was very situational and wound up a dead card in many games.
You may have a different build, though, and in more aggroish builds it may shine. I just had too few creatures to make it consistent.
Edit: Also, you may want to read the card:
Cast Berserk only before the combat damage step.
Target creature gains trample and gets +X/+0 until end of turn, where X is its power. At the beginning of the next end step, destroy that creature if it attacked this turn.
Can't use it eot...
I am John Galt.
have you ever tried phyrexian arena instead of bob? i know its 3-4 creatures less, but there arent many enchantment hate on MD at least, and that 1 card extra every turn just makes it so much better, and you dont have the life loss of bob, you dont show the card(so you dont give any information) and there are too many creature hate on legacy.
what you think??
Go play vesper green. Eva Green is a mid-range suicide deck. if you are saying we are NOT and then saying not to play snuff out and THEN suggesting deed and Confidant+Top you're playing aggro-control. Not Eva Green. Sinkhole? Integral to the tempo strategy of suicide. Same with Snuff Out.
Eva Green is a suicide deck. If youre deck isnt suicide it isnt Eva Green.
Dont play Eva green in zoo (aggro) oriented metas.
Its that easy.
We are, however, one of the decks that runs Tombstalker.
8 Fetches insure that you will be able easily play one whenever you want.
I dont think Duress is really an option. The format will likely shift towards aggro. The only big things Inquisition wont hit is FoW and ANT. 3/2 TS/IoK split seems the best if you want a split. 5 1cc discard has felt like the correct number to me for a long time.
If you want to move away from being Suicide dont play Nighthawk... Splash White and play KoR/Doran/Finks. Nighthawk doesnt stick around long enough or he sits there untapped stalling out the red zone, and Zoo/Goblins etc win the inevitability war a lot better than we do.
blah have to go will be back later to edit and add more.
Mimeoplasm Midrange, CHAINER CHAINER HIGH VOLTAGE
Rafiq of the Astral Slide, 67land.dec Child of Alara, Gisela <3 Sunforger
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Sek'Kuar, Deathkeeper, Phage the Uncastable, Azusa Lost but Stompy, Crosis Combo Breaker, All-In-Skullbriar, Rafiq/Jenara ETB army, Hazezon Swarm, Glissa Voltron!, Jarad Zombie Tribal, Zedruu Pillowfort, Reaper King Artifact Shenanagains
I don't think there is any excuse for not running 4 Thoughtseize either. Thoughtseize is the best targeted discard in the game.
5 Swamp
2 Forest
3 Bayou
3 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
3 Tombstalker
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Hypnotic Specter
3 Nantuko Shade
Spells
1 Umewaza's Jitte
4 Dark Ritual
4 Sinkhole
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Thoughtseize
4 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Snuff out
Is what I played yesterday at a local GPT yesterday.
Round 1 vs Natural Order Bant
It was never really close in games one or two. For every threat I'd draw (nevermind 2/4 of my Wastelands were in the graveyard) he'd draw two, or so it seemed. He just steamrolled me.
Round 2 vs Fish
An early Maelstrom Pulse on Aether Vial games 1 and 3 were pretty clutch for me, along with turn 3 Choke pretty much sealed the deal.
Round 3 vs RDW
Somehow, I managed to race him. I boarded out the Thoughtseizes for Inquisitions and managed to nab key spells both games 2 and 3.
Round 4 vs Mono black
Yeah, I don't know how this guy was 2-1 at the time, but literally NOTHING eventful happened over the course of the whole match. Turn 2 and 3 Goyfs sealed the deal
Semis vs Reanimator
I scooped to the guy when I saw pairings - he needed a shot at the byes more than I did.
Suicide Black decks like this have been around since the beginning of Legacy. Eva Green has been around since Tarmogoyf was printed. This deck will stick around for a loooooooong time. The only thing that would severely hurt this deck would be the banning of a card like Dark Ritual, but I don't see that happening. It is very much a metagame deck, but there will always be a time and place when it is good.
As a sidenote, Sinkhole is actually quite good against Zoo. Zoo cannot bounce back from losing 2 lands. I beat Zoo at a GPT last Saturday by blowing up 3 lands in one turn with 2 Sinkholes and a Wasteland, causing him to have no lands in play. I agree that Sinkhole is very bad against Goblins, but that's why I board them out for Engineered Plagues.
@Elminister: Good luck building the deck! It's an awesome deck to play. I completely endorse Nighthawk, but I am skeptical of Deed as a MD card. Just test some and see what you think about them.
How do we use the few free slots we have to adapt to a more hostile meta?
The core would be something like:
4x Nantuko Shade
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Dark Ritual
4x Sinkhole
4x Hymn to Tourach
3x Thoughtsieze
2x Inquisition of Kozilek
5x Swamp
1x Forest
4x Wasteland
4x Verdant Catacomb
4x Polluted Delta
Which leaves 10 slots for additional creatures and removal.
Such as:
3x Snuff Out
3x Diabolic Edict
With a sideboard something like:
4x Engineered Plague
3x Krosan Grip
2x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Thoughtsieze
1x Gaia's Blessing
I'll be playing this list tomorrow, so I'll let you all know how it goes.
Your thoughts are welcome.
I am John Galt.
I didn't realize you were advocating such minor changes. When I think of Vesper Green, I usually think of a full playset of Bob in addition to things like Deed and top. That particular version is a little more like suicide aggro/control, and I don't really like it. Reanimate as a 2-of is an interesting metagame choice that I do like.
First off here's the list I wound up playing:
4x Vampire Nighthawk
4x Nantuko Shade
4x Tarmogoyf
3x Snuff Out
3x Diabolic Edict
4x Dark Ritual
4x Sinkhole
4x Hymn to Tourach
3x Thoughtseize
2x Inquisition of Kozilek
5x Swamp
1x Forest
4x Wasteland
4x Verdant Catacombs
4x Polluted Delta
4x Leyline of the Void
4x Engineered Plague
3x Choke
3x Krosan Grip
1x Thoughtseize
I was quite tired, and didn't keep any notes, so all I can give you is the round results:
Round 1: New Horizons 2-0
Round 2: New Horizons 2-1
Round 3: Zoo 1-2
Round 4: Survival 0-2
I can definitively say that New Horizons, at least in its current form, is in our favor. Choke was the lynch-pin in three of the four games I won. After pressing with LD and forcing out a few counters, a well placed Choke sealed the deal. The one loss was because I kept a 1 land hand like a noob...
Zoo and Survival were both difficult, mostly because I couldn't find three Perish before the tourney... The battle of attrition is heavily in their favor.
Couple points:
Sinkhole is definitely NOT a dead card in the current meta. One of this deck's strengths is its LD strategy, and there are enough control and tempo decks with fragile mana bases to warrant its continued inclusion. Also, I'm not sure why some of you think to side out sinkhole often, I rarely do, since its so potent... It's only against combo where I need to focus on discard that I move away from LD.
Krosan Grip has lost a bit of its luster with the conspicuous lack of CounterTop (only one of the 23 participants last night played it, and it was in Dreadstill...), so I've moved to Pithing Needle to combat things like Survival and Aether Vial. Good move? Only testing will tell...
My new list for next week will look like this, assuming I get the Perishs:
4x Vampire Nighthawk
4x Nantuko Shade
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Snuff Out
2x Diabolic Edict
4x Dark Ritual
4x Sinkhole
4x Hymn to Tourach
3x Thoughtseize
2x Inquisition of Kozilek
5x Swamp
1x Forest
4x Wasteland
4x Verdant Catacombs
4x Polluted Delta
4x Leyline of the Void
3x Engineered Plague
3x Choke
3x Perish
2x Pithing Needle
I am John Galt.
What do you like Sinkhole against? What do you keep them in against for games two and/or three? What do you sideboard them out against?
It's slightly bad against Zoo, but necessary against the Steppe Lynx versions.
Other aggro, as in what? Non-burn aggro decks? Then it's fine against them.
Burn's irrelevant. Even if there are one to two in a 20-man you'll likely not play against it or can take the match loss and still do well anyways.
It's the only reliable answer to a first-turn Lackey. While goblins aren't the big dogs they once were, they're still likely to show up as a surprise against metas and still have the power to top eight good sized tournaments.
EDIT:
I've been thinking of taking them out myself for more Gatekeepers/Smothers but it has its unique uses against certain decks despite the life loss.
edit:
It's also good against Weathered Wayfarer and Mother of Runes turn on.
I may be biased, as LD is my favorite strategy, but I try to focus on LD against every deck where its relevant... Which means every deck that isn't faster than me... Which means pretty much every deck but combo... Which has worked well so far.
I only every side out all four against combo, where discard takes precedent, along with hate. I rarely drop more than one against anything else, along with singletons of other cards in the deck.
This deck is founded on consistency, and undercutting that by dropping an entire aspect of the strategy isn't my idea of a winning proposition. Once you take out the Sinkholes, your wastelands become mostly useless, especially game two and three when people will go for basics first.
(Obviously we don't have Stifle to preempt fetches.)
I am John Galt.
Here's the decklist (Unchanged from last time, but it's been awhile, so I'll repost it):
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Putrid Leech
3 Tombstalker
3 Nantuko Shade
3 Vampire Nighthawk
4 Hypnotic Specter
Non-creature spells:
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Sinkhole
4 Dark Ritual
4 Snuff Out
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Other Black Fetchlands
3 Bayou
6 Swamp
1 Forest
4 Wasteland
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Tormod's Crypt
3 Engineered Plague
2 Summoning Trap
3 Krosan Grip
2 Umezawa's Jitte
I haven't played this deck in a tournament for quite some time, but since my Storm combo deck is no longer legacy legal, I figured this would be the perfect time to bring Eva Green back. I didn't plan on doing a write-up, so I didn't take very good notes, but here's a few things I remember about the match-ups.
Round 1 vs. Mono-black Persecutor Suicide
Game 1, I don't draw many threats; the creatures I do draw get killed by Innocent blood, Gatekeeper, and other creature kill. I lose Game 1.
Game 2, I keep a hand of 2 or 3 land, a Tarmogoyf, a Putrid Leech, 2 Nantuko Shades and possibly another beater. He duresses me turn 1, and I reveal nothing he can take. I then lay a quick beatdown and we move onto game 3.
Game 3, I keep some hand with double Sinkhole, Jitte, Tombstalker, some land and maybe some other card(s). I keep him on one land with Sinkholes and Wastelands. Beatdown follows. I win the round 2-1.
Round 2 vs. Canadian Thresh
I don't remember too much about these games. I know they were pretty exciting to play. I believe in game 1, I disrupt him a lot, but can't follow up with creatures and lose. Game 2, I get turn 1 Hyppie followed by bigger creatures. Game 3 is very back and forth, but I win it at 1 life (feels good). I win 2-1
Round 3 vs. Mono-blue Merfolk
This round was very fast. Game 1, I get turn 1 Nighthawk backed by me killing or forcing him to discard all his creatures. Tombstalker comes online later and he concedes. Game 2, plays out something like Turn 1 Specter, turn 2 Goyf, turn 3 Hymn and Snuff Out making Goyf huge, and winning shortly after. I win 2-0
Round 4 vs. Enchantress
Game 1, I get a bunch of creatures out, but can't swing past Elephant Grass. Eventually, I draw Tamogoyf, swing for a turn and keep making him discard cards until he can't make enough mana for Elephant Grass' cumulative upkeep cost. At that point I swing for way past lethal.
Game 2, I get turn 1 Engineered Plague (Druid) and then beatdown with Goyf while Krosan Gripping an Enchantress's presence. I win 2-0.
Round 5 vs. Zoo
We decide to tie, but play the games for fun anyway. I ended up winning game 1 and 3. IIRC, Tombstalker was an absolute champ both games.
Top 8 vs. UBR Ad nauseum Tendrils Variant
He starts Game 1 with a Duress. I reveal Land, a Nighthawk, a Dark Ritual, a Hymn, and possibly a few other creatures. He takes Hymn. I topdeck Hyppie and play it with Dark Rit. I keep ripping cantrips and land from his hand, and eventually he has a 2-card-hand and can't combo.
At this point, I'm not sure what Tendrils Variant he is since all I saw was an Ill-gotten Gains, some land, and some Cantrips (I thought he might have been UBR Faeries until Hyppie hit IGG). I decide to side in gravehate and side out Snuff Out incase he's playing IGGy Pop. I draw a pretty awesome hand against any other deck, but it lacked discard so I go to 6. I keep a 1 lander with Leyline, Thoughtseize, and double Hymn. I never draw a second land, and he comboes off pretty late in the game (turn 6, or so).
Game 3, I consider keeping Gravehate in, but mulliganing for gravehate seems really bad against him, so I bring in Jitte and 2 Grips (for SDT) instead. I draw something nuts like Dark Rit, Hymn, Thoughtseize, Inquisition, Shade, Land. I rip apart his hand, and then beatdown. I win 2-1.
Top 4 split and I bought a Badlands to try to rebuild my storm deck.
I was extremely happy with how the deck played, and (without trying to sound conceited) I am positive this is the optimal build of the deck (meta-decisions taken into consideration, of course). Hypnotic Specter was MVP, and turn 1 Hyppie was good all day; turn 3 Hyppie was even good. I plan on bringing this deck out a lot more often now, as it seems to be the perfect meta-call right now (tons of Enchantress, very little Zoo, and Merfolk has returned).
[180 classic cube]
Reanimate is certainly an option to replace it, since it fills the same role (Goyf #5) and causes less life-loss while also being easier to cast as well. But Leech is also an great turn 2 play, where as Reanimate needs a creature to hit the 'yard first, which I see being very relevant in this deck since it's trying to capitalize on the early game.
I also like that Putrid Leech goes better with Summoning Trap. Using Putrid Leech as Goyf #5 instead of Reanimate also lets you have two creatures out at once, where if you're reanimating your own Tarmogoyf, you can only have one Tarmogoyf out at once; I realize this will only be relevant in very few situations, but the fact that it could be relevant should be taken into consideration.
Overall, I like Reanimate, but in this build, I like Putrid Leech better. In a deck that sacrifices the tempo aspect of the deck for a more long-term plan, Reanimate would probably be the better choice.
[180 classic cube]
At first, it seems we would definitely want it for the potential turn 1:
dark rit --> dark rit --> mind twist
But, really, we can do much more worse things with double dark rit (turn 1 Tombstalker for instance).
So, if it were unbanned where in this deck list would it fit in?
I only ask because I'm thinking of picking up a few copies on the off-chance it becomes available.
[180 classic cube]
I would only pick up one. Throw it in your Vintage / EDH deck for now.
Reanimate is nice since it can hit opp's yard but, I'd also highly recommend Unearth as it can also cycle, and is less likely to be a dead draw when you don't have a target ;).
Maverick -- Storm
Click here for trade threadTrade thread under reconstruction.
Because you can't spell slaughter without laughter.
I tried Lich with 18 artifacts in the deck and couldn't consistently cast him. I'm not sure he's worth all the hype...