Solid primer. I enjoyed reading it. I love White Weenie decks; one of my favorites is the Kithkin deck from Lorwyn-Shadowmoor-Shards of Alara Standard. Perhaps, you might want to add it to the sample deck lists. Almost every card is mentioned in your primer. I think the only ones you left out were Ajani Goldmane and Cloudgoat Ranger. It is fairly budget friendly.
You bring up a good point. Kithkins are a pretty sizeable part of white weenies, and I would love to add them. But, they are a pretty wide topic, just like soldiers. The primer is already pretty cluttered with stuff, and I would hate to add a whole lot more in terms more decklists/cards. I think in this case I'll do what I did with soldiers, put a link to the kithkin primer since that can give even more info and keep this primer from completely overflowing.
Basically, just like soldiers, Kithkins have their own primer where people can get more specific help, so I think just a simple link will work. Of course, I will be happy to help anyone who wants to post their decklist here as well.
It's a dangerous business, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.
I don't like thalia in a deck with that much non-creatures either. If you want to keep the disruption, Grand abolisher keeps control stuff annoyed while not hurting our stuff, and doesn't have any change to the curve.
edit: Also, why are you running 8 fetch lands with 1) nothing other than plains in the deck, and 2) no landfall guys. You might as well just put plains in that spot.
It's a dangerous business, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.
Im running the 8 fetches just too thin out the deck, and draw better stuff, but plains do a good job as well:D
The best thing to do if you want to thin out the deck is use four Flagstones of Trokair because of the legendary clause. What I usually do is get what I need done with the existing one out on the field, then when I have no more mana I drop the second one out to put them both into the graveyard and bring out two plains (tapped) for the next turn.
EDIT: However I would only run three in most cases as drawing all four in a game is highly unlikely, but it doesn't really hurt to have four.
Im running the 8 fetches just too thin out the deck, and draw better stuff, but plains do a good job as well:D
The deck thinning will be negligible. Only decks that run ridiculous mana bases from the start, like lowland stompy, really benefit form that. In this case you are just pinging yourself for 1 when you don't have to. Again, flagstone of trokair is what you are looking for in this situation.
It's a dangerous business, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.
I want to fit 4 Endless Horizons in this deck, what should I take out? Also, I am worried about Hokori, Dust Drinker, his casting cost is expensive. I like it because it limits my opponents from casting anything too big. Any suggestions would be great!
Thank you!
I would get 4x Armageddon in this list. Cut Hokori, a Brave and a Spec Proc.
Emeria seems exceptionally bad in a WW deck. ETBT lands can literally cost you games by ruining your curves. Just play Plains IMO. It's not like you're ever going to trigger them after all.
You may need to bump the land count up a bit to support the Geddon but I do think that it's worth adding. You can always shave creatures and pump as needed. Still, any draw that involves dude -> dude -> dude -> Geddon should just win games.
This should have been placed in the White Weenie Primer section. All of your questions will be answered in there.
On the topic of your removal, since this is only casual I would highly suggest you split your Path to Exile with Swords to Plowshares. Have two of each, having four of either can be a horrible idea as it gives huge card or life advantage to your opponent.
On the topic of land, Emeria the Sky Ruins is never a good idea in White Weenie if you can use something else such as Flagstones of Trokair which thins your deck out. I am not saying it is a horrible card, but I prefer to use the latter as it is just a much much better card. I would split eighteen Plains with three Flagstones of Trokair.
I want to fit 4 Endless Horizons in this deck, what should I take out? Also, I am worried about Hokori, Dust Drinker, his casting cost is expensive. I like it because it limits my opponents from casting anything too big. Any suggestions would be great!
Thank you!
All of the above posts are good advice, but in addition to that I would actually keep the list the without the endless horizons, because honestly, if you have 4 mana to play the thing you have enough mana to play everything else, so the extra mana really won't help a heck of a lot. Sure its card thinning, but I would rather just have a creature in that spot.
And again, Hokori kinda sucks, and splitting your paths/swords would help. And switch those emeria's for something more useful.
If you happen to like the land shenanigans with the horizons and emeria, you could do that, but it wouldn't be a WW deck anymore, more like a control deck with sun titan that uses the mana and recursion to get really good card advantage over your opponent.
It's a dangerous business, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.
Probably should also mention something along the lines of Death and Taxes, which is a more controlling version of WW.
Forgive me if this post sounds a little harsh, I mean no offense by it. But to be frank, most of the cards you mentioned are either sub-par choices to cards that already exist, don't belong in WW, or in the case of elspeth, are already in the primer (I put her in the "support" section because of the other stuff she does along with the tokens, and not being a creature herself).
Ajani is really just a less useful version of elspeth, and although some lists would run him, If you have the money to drop on planeswalkers, you might as well just buy elspeth.
weathered wayfarer was mentioned in the first draft of the primer, but didn't make the cut because he is kind of terrible. the fact that he can't do much in combat really hurts considering WW decks are all about aggro. and his ability is slow, and his ability is not "card advantage" , its mana-fixing and deck thining. although lands are lovely, having 3 extra cards over your opponent is useless if they are all plains. And WW isn't exactly hurting in the mana base, as most of our guys only cost 1-2 mana anyway.
Tithe is again most of the same arguments as above. except this time its a one time deal, and it doesn't even get to be a crappy 1/1. The only reason land tax gets a mention is because of what it can do with scroll rack, which is a very good draw engine. The mana fixing part is not all that terribly important in this archetype. (I say "mana fixing" meaning helping you get your 3+ lands out so your not mana screwed )
blade splicer is not a bad card, but a colorless golem doesn't get any of the benefits of being white, and the 1/1 itself is fairly useless. your 3 drops need to be really powerful, and this just doesn't cut it. mirran crusader puts out the same damage but has protection and tears up creatures, and gains all the goodies of HotP and such. And spectral procession gets a bunch of flyers that all again can get pretty nasty with HotP.
Cataclsym is exactly what we don't want in WW; Board sweepers. the glory of Armageddon is that our army stays alive and can tear apart what little things most other decks can have out at the time. cataclysm makes sure that we posses no such advantage.
mangara of condor is just an Oblivion ring that takes up an extra turn to go off. Also, WW is not a control deck, its an aggro deck. MWC is its own archetype that *should* have its own primer.
It's a dangerous business, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.
I'm sorry, but you need to do some more research if you think those cards that I listed are bad. The cards I listed have all been used in WW at some point, and some currently still are being used in WW. You need to expand your narrow view of what WW is, don't just bash people for having a different view than you.
One of the most successful Legacy decks currently is a more controlling version of WW - it wins with by first disrupting the opponent, before going to town with its creatures. It uses Mangara of Corondor by abusing the stack (Notice the exile is on resolution, not as a cost) so that Mangara himself never gets exiled.
Ajani is inferior to Elspeth, but also costs about 75% less. Primers are supposed to be complete in information.
Cataclysm may no longer be worthwhile to use, but it used to be a staple in some WW builds (Turn one Land Tax, turn two Soltari Priest, turn three Empyrial Armor, turn four Cataclysm).
I cannot believe you just called Wayfarer terrible. He's one of the strongest white creatures, PERIOD. Just because he doesn't beat face, doesn't mean he's "bad". And he doesn't just mana fix - he nets you an extra card every turn, and he can find ANY land. No, it doesn't fit in every deck, but yes, it is a strong card.
I'm sorry, but you need to do some more research if you think those cards that I listed are bad. The cards I listed have all been used in WW at some point, and some currently still are being used in WW. You need to expand your narrow view of what WW is, don't just bash people for having a different view than you.
One of the most successful Legacy decks currently is a more controlling version of WW - it wins with by first disrupting the opponent, before going to town with its creatures. It uses Mangara of Corondor by abusing the stack (Notice the exile is on resolution, not as a cost) so that Mangara himself never gets exiled.
Ajani is inferior to Elspeth, but also costs about 75% less. Primers are supposed to be complete in information.
Cataclysm may no longer be worthwhile to use, but it used to be a staple in some WW builds (Turn one Land Tax, turn two Soltari Priest, turn three Empyrial Armor, turn four Cataclysm).
I cannot believe you just called Wayfarer terrible. He's one of the strongest white creatures, PERIOD. Just because he doesn't beat face, doesn't mean he's "bad". And he doesn't just mana fix - he nets you an extra card every turn, and he can find ANY land. No, it doesn't fit in every deck, but yes, it is a strong card.
Look, I don't mean to get into a flame war here, but the cards you suggested are good cards, just not for White Weenies. Just because a deck is white and has creatures in it doesn't make it WW. Death and Taxes for instance, is its own type of deck that is a very different than WW, and as you seem to be so inclined to point out, has its own primer. This primer isn't here to be a list of things that are already in other primers. Its the same reason I don't go into great detail about soldiers or kithkins or knights.
Again, you keep on bringing up control. WW is not control, Its aggro. as I said before, if you want mono white control, feel free to start your own MWC primer. all the cards you suggested are great for that. This primer is already filled to the brim with cards and such, there is no need to clutter it with cards that really belong in other archetypes.
As you said, wayfarer doesn't fit into every deck. WW is one of those decks. He's fantastic in something like, say, a knight of the reliquary deck, but again, that's not WW. Mana fixing isn't important terribly important here, and I'll say it again, he can draw me as many cards as he wants, but that's not really card advantage if every one is a land. In an aggro deck, our 1 drops are very valuable, and to be honest, wayfarer is a bad draw in a lot of games for WW. Sure, in other decks, he can be amazing, but In WW he is about as bad a top deck as you can possibly get, and has little impact in most WW lists.
That whole scenario about cataclysm sounds like a really good start for MWC, but yet again, MWC is a different archetype worthy of its own primer. The reason WW runs a few control spells like swords and 0 ring is so that bomb cards like moat and platinum angel don't completely wreck us.
Mangara still exiles itself though when the ability resolves, unless you are also using some other cards to do some shenanigans as well. Something I bet can be found in, you guessed it, MWC.
Ajani isn't mentioned here because he has such low impact on the game, where you could be playing something else for 4 mana and get way more out of it. his gain 2 life thing is not all that helpful to WW, meaning his only real use is to spam his global +1/+1, and usually he only manages to get it off once or twice before he kicks the bucket. so in most cases, I would just run Honor of the Pure if I wanted +1/+1. And his -6 isn't going off anytime soon if he's using his -1 all the time. Again, in other decks this card could definitely be useful, just not here.
It's like saying time walk should be mentioned in the primer, because I hear that's a pretty good card too. and then we can splash blue, and and add counterspell and Force of Will, and next thing you know, we have UW control.
And believe it or not, primers are NOT supposed to be complete in information. If that was the case, I could write tomes on every practicable use for suntail hawk, but If I did that for every card ever then this primer would be so long it wouldn't fit into a thread.
If there is some serious problem you have with these decisions, then feel free to PM either me or a Mod, and we can try to work things out.
It's a dangerous business, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.
I didn't bring up control. I brought up white weenie with more disruption packed in. Just because a deck has some disruption, it doesn't mean it's automatically a control deck. It would be like calling Sui Black a control deck since it plays stuff like Duress. Just because a card doesn't only beat face, doesn't mean it's automatically a "control card".
And yes, D&T is considered to be White Weenie by just about everyone in Legacy. Most pure aggro decks only become more competitive be packing in more disruption - I'd say the majority of successful tournament quality aggro decks were successful because of the amount of disruption and card advantage it packed.
I think you're smart enough to realize that there are a slew of different WW variants - Soldiers, Kithkin, Knights, Quest, Soul Sisters, Tokens - so I personally don't see why you're so adamant on saying the most successful Legacy variant of WW isn't actually WW, but that's just me.
I didn't bring up control. I brought up white weenie with more disruption packed in. Just because a deck has some disruption, it doesn't mean it's automatically a control deck. It would be like calling Sui Black a control deck since it plays stuff like Duress. Just because a card doesn't only beat face, doesn't mean it's automatically a "control card".
And yes, D&T is considered to be White Weenie by just about everyone in Legacy. Most pure aggro decks only become more competitive be packing in more disruption - I'd say the majority of successful tournament quality aggro decks were successful because of the amount of disruption and card advantage it packed.
I think you're smart enough to realize that there are a slew of different WW variants - Soldiers, Kithkin, Knights, Quest, Soul Sisters, Tokens - so I personally don't see why you're so adamant on saying the most successful Legacy variant of WW isn't actually WW, but that's just me.
I am adamant about this because the opening of the D&T primer says so itself. Allow me to use a direct quote if I may;
"In development since Time Spiral came out, Death and Taxes has become a peculiar kind of control deck. But since it is mostly creatures doing the controlling (with disruption and tricks), it looks like little more than white weenie to the casual observer."
also, D&T is hardly a deck for a beginner looking to get introduced to the archetype. It requires intense understanding of you and your opponents deck, and really good knowledge of the rules.
It's a dangerous business, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.
I am adamant about this because the opening of the D&T primer says so itself. Allow me to use a direct quote if I may;
"In development since Time Spiral came out, Death and Taxes has become a peculiar kind of control deck. But since it is mostly creatures doing the controlling (with disruption and tricks), it looks like little more than white weenie to the casual observer."
also, D&T is hardly a deck for a beginner looking to get introduced to the archetype. It requires intense understanding of you and your opponents deck, and really good knowledge of the rules.
< That's interesting, considering from your comments you didn't even know what D&T was until I linked it to you. So now you are an expert on it? >
D&T is not a true control deck. Even read the primer, he even says it isn't a true control deck - it's probably more akin to Sui Black or The Gate - it's part of the aggro-control archetype in which it never gains full control, but instead it disrupts enough while continually putting pressure on the opponent.
If I were to make a WW casual deck, this would be the way I'd design it - not just fill it with cheap threats and cards that do nothing for board position - but that's just me. I do agree that the style is very different than what you are putting forth, but in my mind, it is still WW, and until there are more primers for white decks (Which could be a possibility) this would be where it would fit.
I do think you need to be more open-minded about cards though - the way you immediately dismissed cards I suggested as being "bad" is disheartening, especially considering how strong they have been. Ajani Goldmane for example, you immediately dismiss as a bad Honor of the Pure but you don't take into account its versatility. Yes, WW has played Ajani, alongside Elspeth, in fact.
flame/bait warning.
after a mod request the threshold is lower.
blut
WW already runs disruption. Its not like I am telling everyone to have just plains and 40 savanah lions. That's why swords/path and O-ring are mentioned. Most WW decks run somewhere between 4-8 disruption spells already, if you go for a more disruption route, that means something like 10+ disruption, where at that point you are really not going for aggro anymore. The reason I don't mention D&T is because it sits on the grey area between WW and MWC. And since the deck really puts a focus on its disruption over its damage output, I would say that it is leaning towards the MWC side.
Now this fact alone isn't the whole reason why I'm excluding it from the primer. Other decks, like Soul Sisters, also had a lot more presence in the primer in the draft stages, but due to the fact that many of the cards were usually relevant only in that specific deck, they were cut. Look at Serra's Ascedant. He's not in the 1 drop section, mainly because he's cool in soul sisters, but as a general card for WW, there are better options. Soul Sisters is a variant of WW that uses some cards that don't normally belong with the archetype. Same with D&T. Cards like Mangara are good in D&T, but not necessarily for the whole archetype.
I was very open minded about cards. Many of the cards you suggested were once in the primer, including Ajani and Wayfarer. The reason I seemed so quick to dismiss them in your post was because there had already been plenty of debate about them when this primer was in its draft stages. needless to say, they didn't survive the cut. They are cards that are good in certain decks, but are too specific to those decks and not good for the whole archetype. Ajani had a nice place in soul sisters, but that wasn't enough to keep him in the primer for all of WW. I can't mention every card that is good in a certain deck that is vaguely relevant to WW. Mangara for instance, has a nice spot in D&T. But in just about every variant of WW besides D&T, it would be cheaper and easier to just run O-ring.
It's a dangerous business, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.
Hmmmm... this ones a toughie. You really lack the "reach" that a lot of other decks have in multiplayer, meaning most of your stuff hits only one thing, and can't affect the whole board or at least multiple things. Of course, that would also only be relevant depending on what kind of multiplayer you were talking about. Is this something like a two-headed giant/emperor battle, or just the free-for-all circle kind of thing?
One of the main problems WW has in multi is that it can only attack one person at a time (again, this depends on the rules you are playing by, but in a lot of games you can only attack one person per turn). Also, most of its removal is single target stuff, which is great in team battles or 1v1, but in a free for all kind of game, you need to get some sort of card advantage but getting more than just a 1 for 1 out of you cards.
So what looks like it would work here? True believer, MoM, Grand abolisher, and mentor all seem fine. And I guess that champion of the parish still works as a cheap but deadly beater.
I think suture priest would be a good upgrade to soul warden, as it will still gain you the life, but will now put out a pretty good amount of damage if a lot of people are putting down creatures. The fact that it costs 1 more shouldn't hurt too much here.
I am unsure about auriok champ and the beloved chaplain. I see why they could be useful, but the champion is highly situational as it really is only good against B/R decks. If your meta is crawling with that, than keep it. otherwise, I think something that has a little bit of staying power, like knight of the holy nimbus, would be a better option in games without a lot of B/R.
I am not a fan of the angels to be honest. they are really expensive, and I think that there are plenty of finisher cards that could be played a lot earlier and still do plenty of hurt.
It's a dangerous business, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.
Hi folks, I recently found a this championship deck that was used to teach me how to play the game. I haven't been keeping up with mtg for years now... I wonder if y'all could help me update this deck with new technologies to give it a modern twist. I will then keep the deck and use it to teach newcomers to the game.
"Sometimes, the situation is outracing a threat, sometimes it's ignoring it, and sometimes it involves sideboarding in 4x Hope//Pray." --Doug Linn
I would agree, maybe -2 land +2 Oblivion Ring or -2 land -1 Path to Exile and +3 Oblivion Ring for more "just in case" scenarios.
W White Weenie
Also, I probably should mention that I did not create the above deck list. It was taken from here: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=173987
Modern
RUBW Affinity
BGR Midrange
UWR Control
RG Titan Shift
RW Burn
GW Bogles
G Tron
You bring up a good point. Kithkins are a pretty sizeable part of white weenies, and I would love to add them. But, they are a pretty wide topic, just like soldiers. The primer is already pretty cluttered with stuff, and I would hate to add a whole lot more in terms more decklists/cards. I think in this case I'll do what I did with soldiers, put a link to the kithkin primer since that can give even more info and keep this primer from completely overflowing.
Basically, just like soldiers, Kithkins have their own primer where people can get more specific help, so I think just a simple link will work. Of course, I will be happy to help anyone who wants to post their decklist here as well.
You could run the other swords in the sideboard depending on the opposing deck's colors. Obligatory links:
Sword of Light and Shadow, Sword of Body and Mind, and Sword of War and Peace.
Also, doesn't Thalia hinder half your deck mainboarded?
I don't like thalia in a deck with that much non-creatures either. If you want to keep the disruption, Grand abolisher keeps control stuff annoyed while not hurting our stuff, and doesn't have any change to the curve.
edit: Also, why are you running 8 fetch lands with 1) nothing other than plains in the deck, and 2) no landfall guys. You might as well just put plains in that spot.
The best thing to do if you want to thin out the deck is use four Flagstones of Trokair because of the legendary clause. What I usually do is get what I need done with the existing one out on the field, then when I have no more mana I drop the second one out to put them both into the graveyard and bring out two plains (tapped) for the next turn.
EDIT: However I would only run three in most cases as drawing all four in a game is highly unlikely, but it doesn't really hurt to have four.
W White Weenie
The deck thinning will be negligible. Only decks that run ridiculous mana bases from the start, like lowland stompy, really benefit form that. In this case you are just pinging yourself for 1 when you don't have to. Again, flagstone of trokair is what you are looking for in this situation.
4 Savanna Lions
4 Figure of Destiny
4 Squadron Hawk
2 Hokori, Dust Drinker
4 Student of Warfare
2 Isamaru Hound of Konda
4 Honor of the Pure
4 Path to Exile
4 Spectral Procession
16 Plains
I want to fit 4 Endless Horizons in this deck, what should I take out? Also, I am worried about Hokori, Dust Drinker, his casting cost is expensive. I like it because it limits my opponents from casting anything too big. Any suggestions would be great!
Thank you!
Emeria seems exceptionally bad in a WW deck. ETBT lands can literally cost you games by ruining your curves. Just play Plains IMO. It's not like you're ever going to trigger them after all.
You may need to bump the land count up a bit to support the Geddon but I do think that it's worth adding. You can always shave creatures and pump as needed. Still, any draw that involves dude -> dude -> dude -> Geddon should just win games.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
On the topic of your removal, since this is only casual I would highly suggest you split your Path to Exile with Swords to Plowshares. Have two of each, having four of either can be a horrible idea as it gives huge card or life advantage to your opponent.
On the topic of land, Emeria the Sky Ruins is never a good idea in White Weenie if you can use something else such as Flagstones of Trokair which thins your deck out. I am not saying it is a horrible card, but I prefer to use the latter as it is just a much much better card. I would split eighteen Plains with three Flagstones of Trokair.
W White Weenie
All of the above posts are good advice, but in addition to that I would actually keep the list the without the endless horizons, because honestly, if you have 4 mana to play the thing you have enough mana to play everything else, so the extra mana really won't help a heck of a lot. Sure its card thinning, but I would rather just have a creature in that spot.
And again, Hokori kinda sucks, and splitting your paths/swords would help. And switch those emeria's for something more useful.
If you happen to like the land shenanigans with the horizons and emeria, you could do that, but it wouldn't be a WW deck anymore, more like a control deck with sun titan that uses the mana and recursion to get really good card advantage over your opponent.
Elspeth, Knight-Errant - Still one of the best finishers in white.
Ajani Goldmane - Strong if you have a lot of weenies.
Weathered Wayfarer - Not really used for attacking, but it can produce massive card advantage over a longer game.
Tithe - Efficient, 2 cards for 1 mana at instant speed. Slightly more budget friendly Land Tax.
Blade Splicer - 1/1 and a 3/3 for 3.
Cataclysm - an alternate to Armageddon.
Mangara of Corondor - Amazing in more controlling builds.
Probably should also mention something along the lines of Death and Taxes, which is a more controlling version of WW.
Commander/EDH:
WU Hanna, Ship's Navigator WU
GW Saffi Eriksdotter GW
BW Selenia, Dark Angel BW
W Heliod, God of Sun W
Retired:
Jenara, Asura of War Thada Adel, Acquisitor Jaya Ballard, Task Mage Lin Sivvi, Defiant Hero Lyzolda, the Blood Witch Akroma, Angel of Wrath Nath of the Gilt-Leaf Tajic, Blade of the Legion Selvala, Explorer Returned Maga, Traitor to Mortals
Tiny Leaders:
W Mangara of Corondor W
Forgive me if this post sounds a little harsh, I mean no offense by it. But to be frank, most of the cards you mentioned are either sub-par choices to cards that already exist, don't belong in WW, or in the case of elspeth, are already in the primer (I put her in the "support" section because of the other stuff she does along with the tokens, and not being a creature herself).
Ajani is really just a less useful version of elspeth, and although some lists would run him, If you have the money to drop on planeswalkers, you might as well just buy elspeth.
weathered wayfarer was mentioned in the first draft of the primer, but didn't make the cut because he is kind of terrible. the fact that he can't do much in combat really hurts considering WW decks are all about aggro. and his ability is slow, and his ability is not "card advantage" , its mana-fixing and deck thining. although lands are lovely, having 3 extra cards over your opponent is useless if they are all plains. And WW isn't exactly hurting in the mana base, as most of our guys only cost 1-2 mana anyway.
Tithe is again most of the same arguments as above. except this time its a one time deal, and it doesn't even get to be a crappy 1/1. The only reason land tax gets a mention is because of what it can do with scroll rack, which is a very good draw engine. The mana fixing part is not all that terribly important in this archetype. (I say "mana fixing" meaning helping you get your 3+ lands out so your not mana screwed )
blade splicer is not a bad card, but a colorless golem doesn't get any of the benefits of being white, and the 1/1 itself is fairly useless. your 3 drops need to be really powerful, and this just doesn't cut it. mirran crusader puts out the same damage but has protection and tears up creatures, and gains all the goodies of HotP and such. And spectral procession gets a bunch of flyers that all again can get pretty nasty with HotP.
Cataclsym is exactly what we don't want in WW; Board sweepers. the glory of Armageddon is that our army stays alive and can tear apart what little things most other decks can have out at the time. cataclysm makes sure that we posses no such advantage.
mangara of condor is just an Oblivion ring that takes up an extra turn to go off. Also, WW is not a control deck, its an aggro deck. MWC is its own archetype that *should* have its own primer.
One of the most successful Legacy decks currently is a more controlling version of WW - it wins with by first disrupting the opponent, before going to town with its creatures. It uses Mangara of Corondor by abusing the stack (Notice the exile is on resolution, not as a cost) so that Mangara himself never gets exiled.
Ajani is inferior to Elspeth, but also costs about 75% less. Primers are supposed to be complete in information.
Cataclysm may no longer be worthwhile to use, but it used to be a staple in some WW builds (Turn one Land Tax, turn two Soltari Priest, turn three Empyrial Armor, turn four Cataclysm).
I cannot believe you just called Wayfarer terrible. He's one of the strongest white creatures, PERIOD. Just because he doesn't beat face, doesn't mean he's "bad". And he doesn't just mana fix - he nets you an extra card every turn, and he can find ANY land. No, it doesn't fit in every deck, but yes, it is a strong card.
Here's some reading for you:
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=306633
Commander/EDH:
WU Hanna, Ship's Navigator WU
GW Saffi Eriksdotter GW
BW Selenia, Dark Angel BW
W Heliod, God of Sun W
Retired:
Jenara, Asura of War Thada Adel, Acquisitor Jaya Ballard, Task Mage Lin Sivvi, Defiant Hero Lyzolda, the Blood Witch Akroma, Angel of Wrath Nath of the Gilt-Leaf Tajic, Blade of the Legion Selvala, Explorer Returned Maga, Traitor to Mortals
Tiny Leaders:
W Mangara of Corondor W
Look, I don't mean to get into a flame war here, but the cards you suggested are good cards, just not for White Weenies. Just because a deck is white and has creatures in it doesn't make it WW. Death and Taxes for instance, is its own type of deck that is a very different than WW, and as you seem to be so inclined to point out, has its own primer. This primer isn't here to be a list of things that are already in other primers. Its the same reason I don't go into great detail about soldiers or kithkins or knights.
Again, you keep on bringing up control. WW is not control, Its aggro. as I said before, if you want mono white control, feel free to start your own MWC primer. all the cards you suggested are great for that. This primer is already filled to the brim with cards and such, there is no need to clutter it with cards that really belong in other archetypes.
As you said, wayfarer doesn't fit into every deck. WW is one of those decks. He's fantastic in something like, say, a knight of the reliquary deck, but again, that's not WW. Mana fixing isn't important terribly important here, and I'll say it again, he can draw me as many cards as he wants, but that's not really card advantage if every one is a land. In an aggro deck, our 1 drops are very valuable, and to be honest, wayfarer is a bad draw in a lot of games for WW. Sure, in other decks, he can be amazing, but In WW he is about as bad a top deck as you can possibly get, and has little impact in most WW lists.
That whole scenario about cataclysm sounds like a really good start for MWC, but yet again, MWC is a different archetype worthy of its own primer. The reason WW runs a few control spells like swords and 0 ring is so that bomb cards like moat and platinum angel don't completely wreck us.
Mangara still exiles itself though when the ability resolves, unless you are also using some other cards to do some shenanigans as well. Something I bet can be found in, you guessed it, MWC.
Ajani isn't mentioned here because he has such low impact on the game, where you could be playing something else for 4 mana and get way more out of it. his gain 2 life thing is not all that helpful to WW, meaning his only real use is to spam his global +1/+1, and usually he only manages to get it off once or twice before he kicks the bucket. so in most cases, I would just run Honor of the Pure if I wanted +1/+1. And his -6 isn't going off anytime soon if he's using his -1 all the time. Again, in other decks this card could definitely be useful, just not here.
It's like saying time walk should be mentioned in the primer, because I hear that's a pretty good card too. and then we can splash blue, and and add counterspell and Force of Will, and next thing you know, we have UW control.
And believe it or not, primers are NOT supposed to be complete in information. If that was the case, I could write tomes on every practicable use for suntail hawk, but If I did that for every card ever then this primer would be so long it wouldn't fit into a thread.
If there is some serious problem you have with these decisions, then feel free to PM either me or a Mod, and we can try to work things out.
And yes, D&T is considered to be White Weenie by just about everyone in Legacy. Most pure aggro decks only become more competitive be packing in more disruption - I'd say the majority of successful tournament quality aggro decks were successful because of the amount of disruption and card advantage it packed.
I think you're smart enough to realize that there are a slew of different WW variants - Soldiers, Kithkin, Knights, Quest, Soul Sisters, Tokens - so I personally don't see why you're so adamant on saying the most successful Legacy variant of WW isn't actually WW, but that's just me.
Commander/EDH:
WU Hanna, Ship's Navigator WU
GW Saffi Eriksdotter GW
BW Selenia, Dark Angel BW
W Heliod, God of Sun W
Retired:
Jenara, Asura of War Thada Adel, Acquisitor Jaya Ballard, Task Mage Lin Sivvi, Defiant Hero Lyzolda, the Blood Witch Akroma, Angel of Wrath Nath of the Gilt-Leaf Tajic, Blade of the Legion Selvala, Explorer Returned Maga, Traitor to Mortals
Tiny Leaders:
W Mangara of Corondor W
I am adamant about this because the opening of the D&T primer says so itself. Allow me to use a direct quote if I may;
"In development since Time Spiral came out, Death and Taxes has become a peculiar kind of control deck. But since it is mostly creatures doing the controlling (with disruption and tricks), it looks like little more than white weenie to the casual observer."
also, D&T is hardly a deck for a beginner looking to get introduced to the archetype. It requires intense understanding of you and your opponents deck, and really good knowledge of the rules.
< That's interesting, considering from your comments you didn't even know what D&T was until I linked it to you. So now you are an expert on it? >
D&T is not a true control deck. Even read the primer, he even says it isn't a true control deck - it's probably more akin to Sui Black or The Gate - it's part of the aggro-control archetype in which it never gains full control, but instead it disrupts enough while continually putting pressure on the opponent.
If I were to make a WW casual deck, this would be the way I'd design it - not just fill it with cheap threats and cards that do nothing for board position - but that's just me. I do agree that the style is very different than what you are putting forth, but in my mind, it is still WW, and until there are more primers for white decks (Which could be a possibility) this would be where it would fit.
I do think you need to be more open-minded about cards though - the way you immediately dismissed cards I suggested as being "bad" is disheartening, especially considering how strong they have been. Ajani Goldmane for example, you immediately dismiss as a bad Honor of the Pure but you don't take into account its versatility. Yes, WW has played Ajani, alongside Elspeth, in fact.
flame/bait warning.
after a mod request the threshold is lower.
blut
Commander/EDH:
WU Hanna, Ship's Navigator WU
GW Saffi Eriksdotter GW
BW Selenia, Dark Angel BW
W Heliod, God of Sun W
Retired:
Jenara, Asura of War Thada Adel, Acquisitor Jaya Ballard, Task Mage Lin Sivvi, Defiant Hero Lyzolda, the Blood Witch Akroma, Angel of Wrath Nath of the Gilt-Leaf Tajic, Blade of the Legion Selvala, Explorer Returned Maga, Traitor to Mortals
Tiny Leaders:
W Mangara of Corondor W
Now this fact alone isn't the whole reason why I'm excluding it from the primer. Other decks, like Soul Sisters, also had a lot more presence in the primer in the draft stages, but due to the fact that many of the cards were usually relevant only in that specific deck, they were cut. Look at Serra's Ascedant. He's not in the 1 drop section, mainly because he's cool in soul sisters, but as a general card for WW, there are better options. Soul Sisters is a variant of WW that uses some cards that don't normally belong with the archetype. Same with D&T. Cards like Mangara are good in D&T, but not necessarily for the whole archetype.
I was very open minded about cards. Many of the cards you suggested were once in the primer, including Ajani and Wayfarer. The reason I seemed so quick to dismiss them in your post was because there had already been plenty of debate about them when this primer was in its draft stages. needless to say, they didn't survive the cut. They are cards that are good in certain decks, but are too specific to those decks and not good for the whole archetype. Ajani had a nice place in soul sisters, but that wasn't enough to keep him in the primer for all of WW. I can't mention every card that is good in a certain deck that is vaguely relevant to WW. Mangara for instance, has a nice spot in D&T. But in just about every variant of WW besides D&T, it would be cheaper and easier to just run O-ring.
4x Champion of the Parish
4x Mother of Runes
2x True Believer
4x Soul Warden
4x Auriok Champion
4x Beloved Chaplain
4x Mentor of the Meek
4x Grand Abolisher
3x Angel of Glory's Rise
4x Oblivion Ring
3x Wrath of God
1x Karakas
1x Flagstones of Trokair
18x Plains
JundBGR
RW Blood MoonRW
Pauper
Delver U
Elves G
Control B
Commander
Edgar Markov BRW
Captain Sisay GW
Niv-Mizzet, Parun UR
Tymna and Ravos WB
No Path to Exile or Swords to Plowshares?
W White Weenie
Hmmmm... this ones a toughie. You really lack the "reach" that a lot of other decks have in multiplayer, meaning most of your stuff hits only one thing, and can't affect the whole board or at least multiple things. Of course, that would also only be relevant depending on what kind of multiplayer you were talking about. Is this something like a two-headed giant/emperor battle, or just the free-for-all circle kind of thing?
One of the main problems WW has in multi is that it can only attack one person at a time (again, this depends on the rules you are playing by, but in a lot of games you can only attack one person per turn). Also, most of its removal is single target stuff, which is great in team battles or 1v1, but in a free for all kind of game, you need to get some sort of card advantage but getting more than just a 1 for 1 out of you cards.
So what looks like it would work here? True believer, MoM, Grand abolisher, and mentor all seem fine. And I guess that champion of the parish still works as a cheap but deadly beater.
I think suture priest would be a good upgrade to soul warden, as it will still gain you the life, but will now put out a pretty good amount of damage if a lot of people are putting down creatures. The fact that it costs 1 more shouldn't hurt too much here.
I am unsure about auriok champ and the beloved chaplain. I see why they could be useful, but the champion is highly situational as it really is only good against B/R decks. If your meta is crawling with that, than keep it. otherwise, I think something that has a little bit of staying power, like knight of the holy nimbus, would be a better option in games without a lot of B/R.
I am not a fan of the angels to be honest. they are really expensive, and I think that there are plenty of finisher cards that could be played a lot earlier and still do plenty of hurt.
17 Plains
3 Nomads en-Kor
3 Paladin en-Vec
4 Soltari Monk
4 Soltari Priest
1 Soltari Visionary
4 Soul Warden
4 Warrior en-Kor
4 White Knight
4 Cataclysm
3 Disenchant
4 Empyrial Armor
4 Tithe
3 Abeyance
2 Armageddon
3 Aura of Silence
3 Cursed Scroll
1 Disenchant
3 Spirit Link