To be able to dish out TWO toughness worth of repeatable kill on the board by turn 3 is just wrong. Just wrecks entire deck types. Just lost straight games to turn 1 assassin, despite being utterly loaded for bear in my hands.
At least with dawnglare invoker, you have to wait for 8 mana.
It's pretty high up there, and will definitely win you a few games by himself. I pick him pretty high, not Drana or Conscription high, but like, over Tuskcaller high.
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Thats why people tend to value removal so highly. Flame Slash or a Regress could throw off that plan. Heck even Lust for War could help by introducing a drawback to the Assassin.
This sounds like sarcasm, which makes me wonder what the point of this thread is.
Like any board dominating threat you must remove Assassin -- especially a turn 1 Assassin -- or you will lose. Removal/Regress are ways to deal with him.
From your comment here it sounds like the point of this thread is nothing more than a frustrating bad beat story.
It's pretty high up there, and will definitely win you a few games by himself. I pick him pretty high, not Drana or Conscription high, but like, over Tuskcaller high.
While I agree with this, considering we're talking about all rares here, this assessment is useless. Guul Draz Assassin is a first pick and you don't look back.
It is an unfortunate side effect of the importance of Constructed that we have to put up with cards which are overpowered for Limited. OK, so this isn't going to stop happening any time soon, but there's no need to pretend you like it.
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Hey look! Another thread for someone to whine about a card that wrecked them being overpowered!
The fact of the matter is that formats in which many of the really powerful cards are creatures, like this one, are healthy as long as there are enough answers printed as well. Generally speaking, RoE is chock full of removal options, which balances out the limited environment. Drana is probably the best card for limited in RoE, and there are enough ways to deal with it to prevent it from being out of control, like Basilisk Collar and Jitte.
The format is balanced. Losing to good rares is part of the game, and if you draft a deck that can't deal with something like the Assassin, you have to understand your primary strategy and alter it when the bomb hits. Sure, you stand a high likelihood of losing anyway, but you don't draft UW without knowing you might run into at least a Brimstone Mage or Dawnglare Invoker.
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To be able to dish out TWO toughness worth of repeatable kill on the board by turn 3 is just wrong. Just wrecks entire deck types. Just lost straight games to turn 1 assassin, despite being utterly loaded for bear in my hands.
At least with dawnglare invoker, you have to wait for 8 mana.
How high do you rank assassin?
I usually pick him higher than... oh bleeding hells. First pick rare is first pickable. In other news, water remains somewhat damp.
If this forum had Greasers, Phoenix, Commons and Semantics would be the leaders of the gang and every time they commented on something they would do a synchronized finger snap then smoke a cigarette.
Hey, I'm just waiting on that day where I open a foil Assassin and some other bomb, and THEN all of the rare vs rare scenarios we've done will finally give me the edge, mwahahahaha!!!!!
But seriously speaking, if you check out one of the draftcaps that I did, I beat my opponent that had a fully activated Assassin with my UW deck without any removal/bounce on the Assassin. That's right, I had my cake and ate it too (the story involves a well timed Emerge Unscathed). Assassin is definitely no Jitte in this regard, and I think that's pretty great.
Gruul Draaz is better than every common and uncommon in the set and all but the bombiest of rares. When it comes to splashing Gruul Draaz, be aware that he is black intensive, so he's significantly worse in a deck without much black mana.
Gruul Draaz is better than every common and uncommon in the set and all but the bombiest of rares.
Then maybe it's time to start comparing outside the set. Would you pick Guul Draz Assassin over Vampire Nighthawk?
If so, would you pick Assassin over... cake?!
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If this forum had Greasers, Phoenix, Commons and Semantics would be the leaders of the gang and every time they commented on something they would do a synchronized finger snap then smoke a cigarette.
Assassin is easily first-pickable, but he's certainly not the most broken card in the format. Drana will get a much more enthusiastic first-pick. In the right circumstances I'd probably take a staggershock over him simply for the fact that if you draw him late game he's not really golden. Solid, yeah, but not by any stretch worth complaining that much about.
I run the removal I can get. I've generally been very successful in his format in draft and sealed. Perhaps this does have a little bit of a bad beats gripe in it, but really, I'm trying to think of a precedent for this card because I can't really think of one in terms o repeatable removal.
Just found the repeatable assassin ability (compared to previous format rares) to be awfully fast. Turn 3 he's dishing out -2/-2 as a 2/2, and turn 4 he's already a 4/4, (a black 4/4) very hard to kill ou of much removal range, ready to dish out -4/-4 for B.
Drana is a stronger rare, but at 5 mana, active on turn 6 or so to slap -0/-X for XBB around, her interactivity seems more fair somehow. I've beaten drana, and I've won against assassin too... Clearly having good removal helps
But really -2/-2 toughness repeatable removal and turn 3 for tap b and -4/-4 repeatable removal on turn 5 for tap b... Just feels really early to keep opponent's board empty with just one card.
But yeah, he's a rare. Guess he's now the first single card to ping 2 toughness creatures that early that cheap, then 4 toughness creatures later... And usually see these type guys in 1/1 bodies... Maybe 2/2, in range of most burn. This guy grows to 4/4. Slam dunk first pick over just about everything except drana.
And late game, how is a 4/4 black body that gives -4/-4 repeatable "not really golden"? He even brings eldrazi & sphinx into killable range, and certainly into "raceable" range. You have 5 mana out with bbb, he's going active with -4/-4 the turn you can finally tap hm.
I do agree there's no reason for his body to get a substantial boost out of most removal ranges. Maybe 2/1 at level 2 and 4/1 or 4/2 at Level 4.
His abilities are strong like Tuskcaller, but TC stays at 1/1. Enclave Cryptologist remains a 0/1. I'm not sure what happened with GDA but him moving up to a 4/4 body sure seems like an oversight.
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This reminds me of when someone said that Luminarch Ascension is overpowered in 2HG limited because it gets two counters. It's a rare, you should have answers to it such as removal in this case. I don't think it is a problem that rares are more powerful in draft.
goodness. mtg players sure love to believe the format they play in is skill based lol. people who even play in t2 swear that its skill based lol.
this is a bomb based limited format i dont see how any1 can say otherwise. cards like assassin and drana just can win games sometimes AND WILL. doesnt help that those colors also can have cadaver imp. cards like those are also the reason i never will draft U/G or U/W.
goodness. mtg players sure love to believe the format they play in is skill based lol. people who even play in t2 swear that its skill based lol.
this is a bomb based limited format i dont see how any1 can say otherwise. cards like assassin and drana just can win games sometimes AND WILL. doesnt help that those colors also can have cadaver imp. cards like those are also the reason i never will draft U/G or U/W.
"outplayed".
The same players consistently do well in limited both within and across formats. Ergo, limited is skill-based.
I think Rise is more skill-based than most limited formats because most of the bombs need to be built around. Assasin, Drana, and Gideon are noteworthy exceptions.
What interests me as a mathematician is whether some measure could be constructed to quantify the extent to which a format or game is skill-based versus random, based on the statistics of who beats whom. Then we could make a precise comparison of Rise vs Zen vs M10, for instance.
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The same players consistently do well in limited both within and across formats. Ergo, limited is skill-based.
I think Rise is more skill-based than most limited formats because most of the bombs need to be built around. Assasin, Drana, and Gideon are noteworthy exceptions.
What interests me as a mathematician is whether some measure could be constructed to quantify the extent to which a format or game is skill-based versus random, based on the statistics of who beats whom. Then we could make a precise comparison of Rise vs Zen vs M10, for instance.
the thing is every format SOMEBODY claims its skill based. im not saying no skill at all is needed to play ROE limited but i sure wouldnt call it skill based. I usually merc 8-4s on modo i say i top 2 about 60% of the time. so its not like i dont win in roe limited. but im convinced its more rare based than skill based.
i'd go as far as to say im better than the majority of people who say its skill based. i know most of my wins certainly have nothing to do with skill. i know watching lsv draft and play has almost nothing to do with skill (btw he is the biggest sack i know, i wouldnt keep the majority of hands he keeps. i dont see how some1 can play like him and invest in luck sooo much)
really i would love for somebody to come up with some kind of program, anything to tell whether a format is skill based or not. cus honestly i think people just call stuff skill based cus they want a sense of value in something they do. its like in fighters such as SF4 where shotos claim theyre good and not flowchart when infact shotos are capcoms little babies and are definitely the noob characters.
did you play in OOO (onslaught) limited? thats another bomb based format and people still claimed it was skill based. i mean black was the only color that could kill bombs and it only had 1 common that could do it if i remember correctly. and yet people still claimed them winning with visara and silvos and friends was skill based.
did you play in OOO (onslaught) limited? thats another bomb based format and people still claimed it was skill based. i mean black was the only color that could kill bombs and it only had 1 common that could do it if i remember correctly. and yet people still claimed them winning with visara and silvos and friends was skill based.
In fact, I remember Onslaught very nicely, and it WAS a skill testing format, because of morph. Of course you have Visara and whatnot, but most games aren't won by Visara, but rather, are won by successfully drafting a good tribe, and learning how to read and bluff attacks and blocks with morphs. It was one of the more skill intensive format, certainly more so than ZZZ or even LLL.
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In fact, I remember Onslaught very nicely, and it WAS a skill testing format, because of morph. Of course you have Visara and whatnot, but most games aren't won by Visara, but rather, are won by successfully drafting a good tribe, and learning how to read and bluff attacks and blocks with morphs. It was one of the more skill intensive format, certainly more so than ZZZ or even LLL.
and its people like you who refuse to believe that there are formats that arnt skill based. ill take visara or X bombs over this so called needed skill in OOO any day. so honestly in your opinion what limited environment would u say wasnt skill based at all? or are u actually 1 of those people who think magic is always skill based?
is there a way to show past matches (earlier this month) on magic online? i've lost to some stupid stuff like some1 with assassin,drana,disaster radius, and sarkhan. no ammount of skill was gonna help me there. i know that is utter luckiness but even if he had only 2 of those im pretty sure i would have lost. and it would have nothing to do with skill.
and its people like you who refuse to believe that there are formats that arnt skill based. ill take visara or X bombs over this so called needed skill in OOO any day. so honestly in your opinion what limited environment would u say wasnt skill based at all? or are u actually 1 of those people who think magic is always skill based?
is there a way to show past matches (earlier this month) on magic online? i've lost to some stupid stuff like some1 with assassin,drana,disaster radius, and sarkhan. no ammount of skill was gonna help me there. i know that is utter luckiness but even if he had only 2 of those im pretty sure i would have lost. and it would have nothing to do with skill.
Your argument is the most transparently false one I have ever heard. Rares are, well, RARE, and should affect the game in a meaningful way. Limited has always been about card evaluation and synergy, and that requires knowledge and understanding of the commons foremost, followed by uncommons and rares. The vast majority of nonland cards in any given limited deck is going to likely be 1-2 rares, 3-4 uncommons and 17-18 commons. The statistical impact of the rare(s) is not such that the aspect of skill is completely eliminated. Add to that the importance of information in the game, and you have yourself a mind game regardless of the sets involved.
The fact that the bombs in RoE are mostly creatures means that you can actively plan for this both during the draft and while playing the games. Do you use your Deprive or Domestication early to beat down before the opponent draws their Guul Draz Assassin? Do you wait to Regress it until they sink more mana in, or do you play it early and aggressively? Add to these questions the fact that every single color has either individual cards or workable strategies (green) that can counteract the domination of bombs, and you have a balanced, skill-intensive limited format.
Yes, there are plenty of games won by bombs. However, very seldom will you see a deck poorly built and/or drafted win solely on the back of one. It happens, but even the bombs in this format require playskill for you to win with them. When do you activate Drana? How many times? When do you level your Assassin? When do you drop Conscription? Again, the answers to these questions are skill testers, and every single time you encounter them, the answer is unique depending on the game state and information you have about your opponent.
I would hazard a guess that I am a more statistically successful player than you, and I can attest to having lost plenty of games in this format to bombs. However, I have also played around them and beaten them a fair number of times as well. Every turn you play, you have choices to make, and those choices are affected by a near infinite number of factors. To say that the game/format is more luck or bomb based than skill based is absolutely, unequivocally ludicrous.
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Your argument is the most transparently false one I have ever heard. Rares are, well, RARE, and should affect the game in a meaningful way. Limited has always been about card evaluation and synergy, and that requires knowledge and understanding of the commons foremost, followed by uncommons and rares. The vast majority of nonland cards in any given limited deck is going to likely be 1-2 rares, 3-4 uncommons and 17-18 commons. The statistical impact of the rare(s) is not such that the aspect of skill is completely eliminated. Add to that the importance of information in the game, and you have yourself a mind game regardless of the sets involved.
The fact that the bombs in RoE are mostly creatures means that you can actively plan for this both during the draft and while playing the games. Do you use your Deprive or Domestication early to beat down before the opponent draws their Guul Draz Assassin? Do you wait to Regress it until they sink more mana in, or do you play it early and aggressively? Add to these questions the fact that every single color has either individual cards or workable strategies (green) that can counteract the domination of bombs, and you have a balanced, skill-intensive limited format.
Yes, there are plenty of games won by bombs. However, very seldom will you see a deck poorly built and/or drafted win solely on the back of one. It happens, but even the bombs in this format require playskill for you to win with them. When do you activate Drana? How many times? When do you level your Assassin? When do you drop Conscription? Again, the answers to these questions are skill testers, and every single time you encounter them, the answer is unique depending on the game state and information you have about your opponent.
I would hazard a guess that I am a more statistically successful player than you, and I can attest to having lost plenty of games in this format to bombs. However, I have also played around them and beaten them a fair number of times as well. Every turn you play, you have choices to make, and those choices are affected by a near infinite number of factors. To say that the game/format is more luck or bomb based than skill based is absolutely, unequivocally ludicrous.
k roe is very skill based. i could money draft u on magic online and win 5 times in a row and u would still disagree with me. nothing is gonna change your mind, even if jon finkel ascended from the heavens and told you magic isnt very skill based at all right now.
what you just describe as "skill testers" sounds to me like general common sense.
to each his own i guess.
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To be able to dish out TWO toughness worth of repeatable kill on the board by turn 3 is just wrong. Just wrecks entire deck types. Just lost straight games to turn 1 assassin, despite being utterly loaded for bear in my hands.
At least with dawnglare invoker, you have to wait for 8 mana.
How high do you rank assassin?
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This sounds like sarcasm, which makes me wonder what the point of this thread is.
Like any board dominating threat you must remove Assassin -- especially a turn 1 Assassin -- or you will lose. Removal/Regress are ways to deal with him.
From your comment here it sounds like the point of this thread is nothing more than a frustrating bad beat story.
I'm in the camp of 'use removal on it'.
While I agree with this, considering we're talking about all rares here, this assessment is useless. Guul Draz Assassin is a first pick and you don't look back.
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It is an unfortunate side effect of the importance of Constructed that we have to put up with cards which are overpowered for Limited. OK, so this isn't going to stop happening any time soon, but there's no need to pretend you like it.
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The fact of the matter is that formats in which many of the really powerful cards are creatures, like this one, are healthy as long as there are enough answers printed as well. Generally speaking, RoE is chock full of removal options, which balances out the limited environment. Drana is probably the best card for limited in RoE, and there are enough ways to deal with it to prevent it from being out of control, like Basilisk Collar and Jitte.
The format is balanced. Losing to good rares is part of the game, and if you draft a deck that can't deal with something like the Assassin, you have to understand your primary strategy and alter it when the bomb hits. Sure, you stand a high likelihood of losing anyway, but you don't draft UW without knowing you might run into at least a Brimstone Mage or Dawnglare Invoker.
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I usually pick him higher than... oh bleeding hells. First pick rare is first pickable. In other news, water remains somewhat damp.
But seriously speaking, if you check out one of the draftcaps that I did, I beat my opponent that had a fully activated Assassin with my UW deck without any removal/bounce on the Assassin. That's right, I had my cake and ate it too (the story involves a well timed Emerge Unscathed). Assassin is definitely no Jitte in this regard, and I think that's pretty great.
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Then maybe it's time to start comparing outside the set. Would you pick Guul Draz Assassin over Vampire Nighthawk?
If so, would you pick Assassin over... cake?!
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I'd pick Ancestral Recall, Demonic Tutor, or Glare of Subdual over him in cube, but I think he's ahead of Shriekmaw...
PS run more removal.
Just found the repeatable assassin ability (compared to previous format rares) to be awfully fast. Turn 3 he's dishing out -2/-2 as a 2/2, and turn 4 he's already a 4/4, (a black 4/4) very hard to kill ou of much removal range, ready to dish out -4/-4 for B.
Drana is a stronger rare, but at 5 mana, active on turn 6 or so to slap -0/-X for XBB around, her interactivity seems more fair somehow. I've beaten drana, and I've won against assassin too... Clearly having good removal helps
But really -2/-2 toughness repeatable removal and turn 3 for tap b and -4/-4 repeatable removal on turn 5 for tap b... Just feels really early to keep opponent's board empty with just one card.
But yeah, he's a rare. Guess he's now the first single card to ping 2 toughness creatures that early that cheap, then 4 toughness creatures later... And usually see these type guys in 1/1 bodies... Maybe 2/2, in range of most burn. This guy grows to 4/4. Slam dunk first pick over just about everything except drana.
And late game, how is a 4/4 black body that gives -4/-4 repeatable "not really golden"? He even brings eldrazi & sphinx into killable range, and certainly into "raceable" range. You have 5 mana out with bbb, he's going active with -4/-4 the turn you can finally tap hm.
His abilities are strong like Tuskcaller, but TC stays at 1/1. Enclave Cryptologist remains a 0/1. I'm not sure what happened with GDA but him moving up to a 4/4 body sure seems like an oversight.
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this is a bomb based limited format i dont see how any1 can say otherwise. cards like assassin and drana just can win games sometimes AND WILL. doesnt help that those colors also can have cadaver imp. cards like those are also the reason i never will draft U/G or U/W.
"outplayed".
The same players consistently do well in limited both within and across formats. Ergo, limited is skill-based.
I think Rise is more skill-based than most limited formats because most of the bombs need to be built around. Assasin, Drana, and Gideon are noteworthy exceptions.
What interests me as a mathematician is whether some measure could be constructed to quantify the extent to which a format or game is skill-based versus random, based on the statistics of who beats whom. Then we could make a precise comparison of Rise vs Zen vs M10, for instance.
the thing is every format SOMEBODY claims its skill based. im not saying no skill at all is needed to play ROE limited but i sure wouldnt call it skill based. I usually merc 8-4s on modo i say i top 2 about 60% of the time. so its not like i dont win in roe limited. but im convinced its more rare based than skill based.
i'd go as far as to say im better than the majority of people who say its skill based. i know most of my wins certainly have nothing to do with skill. i know watching lsv draft and play has almost nothing to do with skill (btw he is the biggest sack i know, i wouldnt keep the majority of hands he keeps. i dont see how some1 can play like him and invest in luck sooo much)
really i would love for somebody to come up with some kind of program, anything to tell whether a format is skill based or not. cus honestly i think people just call stuff skill based cus they want a sense of value in something they do. its like in fighters such as SF4 where shotos claim theyre good and not flowchart when infact shotos are capcoms little babies and are definitely the noob characters.
did you play in OOO (onslaught) limited? thats another bomb based format and people still claimed it was skill based. i mean black was the only color that could kill bombs and it only had 1 common that could do it if i remember correctly. and yet people still claimed them winning with visara and silvos and friends was skill based.
In fact, I remember Onslaught very nicely, and it WAS a skill testing format, because of morph. Of course you have Visara and whatnot, but most games aren't won by Visara, but rather, are won by successfully drafting a good tribe, and learning how to read and bluff attacks and blocks with morphs. It was one of the more skill intensive format, certainly more so than ZZZ or even LLL.
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and its people like you who refuse to believe that there are formats that arnt skill based. ill take visara or X bombs over this so called needed skill in OOO any day. so honestly in your opinion what limited environment would u say wasnt skill based at all? or are u actually 1 of those people who think magic is always skill based?
is there a way to show past matches (earlier this month) on magic online? i've lost to some stupid stuff like some1 with assassin,drana,disaster radius, and sarkhan. no ammount of skill was gonna help me there. i know that is utter luckiness but even if he had only 2 of those im pretty sure i would have lost. and it would have nothing to do with skill.
Your argument is the most transparently false one I have ever heard. Rares are, well, RARE, and should affect the game in a meaningful way. Limited has always been about card evaluation and synergy, and that requires knowledge and understanding of the commons foremost, followed by uncommons and rares. The vast majority of nonland cards in any given limited deck is going to likely be 1-2 rares, 3-4 uncommons and 17-18 commons. The statistical impact of the rare(s) is not such that the aspect of skill is completely eliminated. Add to that the importance of information in the game, and you have yourself a mind game regardless of the sets involved.
The fact that the bombs in RoE are mostly creatures means that you can actively plan for this both during the draft and while playing the games. Do you use your Deprive or Domestication early to beat down before the opponent draws their Guul Draz Assassin? Do you wait to Regress it until they sink more mana in, or do you play it early and aggressively? Add to these questions the fact that every single color has either individual cards or workable strategies (green) that can counteract the domination of bombs, and you have a balanced, skill-intensive limited format.
Yes, there are plenty of games won by bombs. However, very seldom will you see a deck poorly built and/or drafted win solely on the back of one. It happens, but even the bombs in this format require playskill for you to win with them. When do you activate Drana? How many times? When do you level your Assassin? When do you drop Conscription? Again, the answers to these questions are skill testers, and every single time you encounter them, the answer is unique depending on the game state and information you have about your opponent.
I would hazard a guess that I am a more statistically successful player than you, and I can attest to having lost plenty of games in this format to bombs. However, I have also played around them and beaten them a fair number of times as well. Every turn you play, you have choices to make, and those choices are affected by a near infinite number of factors. To say that the game/format is more luck or bomb based than skill based is absolutely, unequivocally ludicrous.
:dance:Fact or Fiction of the [Limited] Clan:dance:
k roe is very skill based. i could money draft u on magic online and win 5 times in a row and u would still disagree with me. nothing is gonna change your mind, even if jon finkel ascended from the heavens and told you magic isnt very skill based at all right now.
what you just describe as "skill testers" sounds to me like general common sense.
to each his own i guess.