According to one of the articles on the mothership, this format will be significantly slower than GTCx3 and RTRx3, which will be nice.
The two mana bounce bear looks pretty cool, but I'm trying to think of cool etb effects on common/uncommon creatures in RTR/GTC that he'd go well with but I'm drawing a blank. It doesn't seem like it's worth the tempo loss to bounce something with detain most of the time.
The bounce bear's ability's primary objective is to save creatures from removal. It won't be as good at saving creatures as Whitemane Lion was, but back then damage stacked. That format also had way more creatures with comes-into-play abilities. This guy's advantage is that he doesn't have to return a creature, making him a completely fine two-drop, which the Lion wasn't.
The bounce bear's ability's primary objective is to save creatures from removal. It won't be as good at saving creatures as Whitemane Lion was, but back then damage stacked. That format also had way more creatures with comes-into-play abilities. This guy's advantage is that he doesn't have to return a creature, making him a completely fine two-drop, which the Lion wasn't.
Dramatic Rescue was a fine card, especially in Azorius because it let you reuse Detain. Snagging a 2/2 seems like a significant upgrade to me. I think his best fit is in an Azorius-Selesnya-Simic build where you can maximize both his effects; the return for Detain/Token generators, and the Flash to trigger evolve.
He can't bounce himself, which kind of stinks, but with a Faerie Imposter and Sage's Row Denizen you have some cheap creatures with which to push the milling, if that's what your deck wants to do.
I like the Fuse mechanic. I wonder if it was developed because of the long-standing tradition that split cards are given names that match a ____ & ____ common phrase. It makes a lot more sense that you can now cast Beck & Call compared to say Fire & Ice (which is what everyone called it but you could never actually play both halves).
Still too early to tell how the set will play of course, but it seems like DGM is really pushing the value of multicolor and rewarding you for playing with a proper mana base.
I liked the comment about consciously trying to slow down the format, to allow multi-color decks the time to set themselves up. I think I most definitely prefer slower sets to the bedlam that is Zendikar or Gatecrash.
"4-color" fuse cards - will these be castable in Limited, do you think?
(for the fuse effect)
Also Toil//Trouble is fantastic for Rakdos.
Were 4 color Fuse cards confirmed? If Dissension is any indication, I'd Hazard a guess that we're only going to see a cycle of "Shard" fuse cards and "Wedge" fuse cards.
I liked the comment about consciously trying to slow down the format, to allow multi-color decks the time to set themselves up. I think I most definitely prefer slower sets to the bedlam that is Zendikar or Gatecrash.
Yeah. Which formats are the consensus awesome formats in Magic's history? The slow ones. Rise of the Eldrazi was glacially slow, and if you thought that format was anything but awesome, you are in a decisive minority. Eight-drops like Tidespout Tyrant were considered pretty strong in RGD, because the format was slow and grindy. Innistrad had potential for both. Time Spiral did as well.
Blisteringly fast sets like Zendikar or Gatecrash, though... those are not usually considered to be very good.
Hint, hint, R&D! Gavin, you're a former mod of this limited forum, pay attention
Were 4 color Fuse cards confirmed? If Dissension is any indication, I'd Hazard a guess that we're only going to see a cycle of "Shard" fuse cards and "Wedge" fuse cards.
I agree, this would make the most sense. Especially since one of the themes of DGM is that each guild as a "secret ally" that shares at least one color. It seems like we're going to get mono-splits at uncommon and gold-splits at rare. I would not be surprised if there were no split cards at common, since R&D generally don't like putting such complicated mechanics there.
If there was going to be a common split card, it would be Wear & Tear right? The fact that the typical "artifact / enchantment removal" card is uncommon makes me think that's the lowest rarity for this mechanic. I could be wrong.
I liked the comment about consciously trying to slow down the format, to allow multi-color decks the time to set themselves up. I think I most definitely prefer slower sets to the bedlam that is Zendikar or Gatecrash.
Agreed, as long as they don't slow it down so much that the only viable archetype is 5-color goodstuff.
Bounce bear and Toil//Trouble are both going to be very high picks. The first is exactly what Azorius is looking for: a way to apply both early pressure and potential card advantage. Toil//Trouble seems extremely versatile; it's a potentially huge endgame Lava Axe, it's a splashable Sign in Blood, and it's the cheapest Sudden Impact ever. Seems to me that this is everything that Rakdos wants.
Toil//Trouble seems extremely versatile; it's a potentially huge endgame Lava Axe, it's a splashable Sign in Blood, and it's the cheapest Sudden Impact ever. Seems to me that this is everything that Rakdos wants.
Eh...it's not that good. I like the Sign in Blood half but not for Aggro decks (Orzhov loves it -- what's two life when it all fuels Extort?). I like the Lava Axe potential but only in Aggro decks, so it's kind of an awkward card. Yes you can play it multiple ways (2R for Trouble being the least likely) but very few decks will actually want more than one form of it.
You have to remember that in Limited, by the time you can cast 4BR, your opponent has maybe 1 or 2 cards in hand. With 1 card in hand, it's much worse than Lava Axe. For 1 extra mana, you deal less damage and give them two cards. So they need at least 2 cards in hand before it even has potential to be better than Lava Axe. There is literally no potential for it to be "huge." If your opponent has that many cards in hand late game, you've already won.
My bet is that you value this like a Black draw spell, with the rare upside of dealing damage. In that regard, it's roughly as good as Divination which is never a high pick.
I like the new split cards mostly because they will be a good skill tester. It was always hard with kicker cards to decide whether or not it was possible to cast the "bigger" version. The split cards will also be interesting picks. Will the card be useful to you if you can only cast one side? Will it be useful to you if you never cast the "fused" version? If you can cast each side but not both in a game, which side do you use? I'm already getting excited thinking about all the decisions!
Nice that they announce that the format will be slower. It was already obvious from the structure, but they could have provided enough low-cost mono-coloured cards to make a fast two-colours deck possible. Hopefully, they really did succeed in preventing this.
The spoiled cards so far align with this: not undercosted, nothing too cheap, and the only fast low-cost card so far, the flash 2/2, is gold in a slow guild.
Is the Ruric thar / Melek pattern of 6 CMC champion a pattern? Maybe all champions will have a CMC of 6? It would be unfair to other guilds if a champion had a head-start after all...
You have to remember that in Limited, by the time you can cast 4BR, your opponent has maybe 1 or 2 cards in hand. With 1 card in hand, it's much worse than Lava Axe. For 1 extra mana, you deal less damage and give them two cards. So they need at least 2 cards in hand before it even has potential to be better than Lava Axe. There is literally no potential for it to be "huge." If your opponent has that many cards in hand late game, you've already won.
My understanding is that you actually deal the same amount of damage as Lava Axe if they started with 1 card, since the halves are processed left-to-right: first they draw 2 and lose 2, then they take 3, for a total of 5.
My understanding is that you actually deal the same amount of damage as Lava Axe if they started with 1 card, since the halves are processed left-to-right: first they draw 2 and lose 2, then they take 3, for a total of 5.
But if Lava Axe said, "Deal 5 damage to target player. That player draws two cards." it would be pretty bad. I can see Toil and Trouble as a situational finisher if you need to get those last bits in (kind of like the one mode of Boros Charm), but I foresee casting the Toil side 80% of the time, targetting myself. I mean, people have been killed by Sign in Blood, so it's not like you'd NEVER aim this at someone's head, and in BorDos it's probably a good bet you'll manage to get someone low enough fast enough that a full Toil and Trouble can hit for a non-negligeable amount of life.
My understanding is that you actually deal the same amount of damage as Lava Axe if they started with 1 card, since the halves are processed left-to-right: first they draw 2 and lose 2, then they take 3, for a total of 5.
You're right, my mistake. It's still worse than Lava Axe though due to casting cost (6cc, gold) and giving them two cards. You really don't want to use it unless it kills them on the spot. The same is usually true of Axe but at least it doesn't have a downside.
You're right, my mistake. It's still worse than Lava Axe though due to casting cost (6cc, gold) and giving them two cards. You really don't want to use it unless it kills them on the spot. The same is usually true of Axe but at least it doesn't have a downside.
I completely agree. But the high versatility (3 options, like a charm) are what make the fuse split cards both interesting and, I think, deceptively powerful. This particular card is, to be sure, not that exciting, and the fuse does unfortunately result in an effect that is much better at a lower cost.
So can we all agree that Advent of the Wurm is probably going to be worth some money? Holy schnauzers that's pushing the line.
Sin Collector seems pretty reasonable, but I wish they'd made him a 1/4 instead of a 2/1. The fact that he either forces them to use their removal spell while he's on the stack, or you catch them with their mana tapped, seems like a good trade for a piddling 2/1.
Vorel seems....well, he's kind of like a really solid cog rather than a driving engine all by himself, as he does nothing without some counters to play with. He does stupid things with a Fathom Mage, I guess, but I see him less as a limited bomb than as a constructed Build-Around-Me card.
Master of Cruelties makes me laugh. He's not going to do it on his own (they can risk a combat trick to just double or triple block him), but pack enough power boosters in your deck and he's kind of a beating. He's also a bad beats story waiting to happen:
"I had my opponent at ONE. I just needed to draw a creature, ANY CREATURE, and what do I topdeck? Master of F-ING Cruelties."
Sin Collector seems pretty reasonable, but I wish they'd made him a 1/4 instead of a 2/1.
Yea well...how much do you want for 3 mana? You're already getting 2 power and most of a Castigate in one card. At 1/4 you'd be getting the Castigate practically for free. It seems like a solid card just for the card advantage potential at such a low casting cost.
Yea well...how much do you want for 3 mana? You're already getting 2 power and most of a Castigate in one card. At 1/4 you'd be getting the Castigate practically for free. It seems like a solid card just for the card advantage potential at such a low casting cost.
I'd say it's fairly variable in quality though, at least in limited. You can't assume that your opponent will have an instant or sorcery, though it is pretty sick if you do hit one.
How you should approach every game of Magic.
Mod Helpdesk (defunct)
My Flawless Score MCC Card | My Other One | # Three!
(for the fuse effect)
Also Toil//Trouble is fantastic for Rakdos.
The two mana bounce bear looks pretty cool, but I'm trying to think of cool etb effects on common/uncommon creatures in RTR/GTC that he'd go well with but I'm drawing a blank. It doesn't seem like it's worth the tempo loss to bounce something with detain most of the time.
EDIT: After a gatherer search, these look like the best candidates to pair it with:
Urbis Protector
Voidwielder
Dinrova Horror
Centaur Healer
Seller of Songbirds
Slum Reaper
Only really excited about using it with Urbis Protector and Dinrova Horror, although the others can be nice.
Which then becomes: how highly to value Guildgates in the DGM pack?
Dramatic Rescue was a fine card, especially in Azorius because it let you reuse Detain. Snagging a 2/2 seems like a significant upgrade to me. I think his best fit is in an Azorius-Selesnya-Simic build where you can maximize both his effects; the return for Detain/Token generators, and the Flash to trigger evolve.
He can't bounce himself, which kind of stinks, but with a Faerie Imposter and Sage's Row Denizen you have some cheap creatures with which to push the milling, if that's what your deck wants to do.
Still too early to tell how the set will play of course, but it seems like DGM is really pushing the value of multicolor and rewarding you for playing with a proper mana base.
Were 4 color Fuse cards confirmed? If Dissension is any indication, I'd Hazard a guess that we're only going to see a cycle of "Shard" fuse cards and "Wedge" fuse cards.
Yeah. Which formats are the consensus awesome formats in Magic's history? The slow ones. Rise of the Eldrazi was glacially slow, and if you thought that format was anything but awesome, you are in a decisive minority. Eight-drops like Tidespout Tyrant were considered pretty strong in RGD, because the format was slow and grindy. Innistrad had potential for both. Time Spiral did as well.
Blisteringly fast sets like Zendikar or Gatecrash, though... those are not usually considered to be very good.
Hint, hint, R&D! Gavin, you're a former mod of this limited forum, pay attention
I agree, this would make the most sense. Especially since one of the themes of DGM is that each guild as a "secret ally" that shares at least one color. It seems like we're going to get mono-splits at uncommon and gold-splits at rare. I would not be surprised if there were no split cards at common, since R&D generally don't like putting such complicated mechanics there.
If there was going to be a common split card, it would be Wear & Tear right? The fact that the typical "artifact / enchantment removal" card is uncommon makes me think that's the lowest rarity for this mechanic. I could be wrong.
Agreed, as long as they don't slow it down so much that the only viable archetype is 5-color goodstuff.
Practice for Khans of Tarkir Limited:
Draft: (#1) (#2) (#3) (#4) (#5)
Cubetutor Link
Eh...it's not that good. I like the Sign in Blood half but not for Aggro decks (Orzhov loves it -- what's two life when it all fuels Extort?). I like the Lava Axe potential but only in Aggro decks, so it's kind of an awkward card. Yes you can play it multiple ways (2R for Trouble being the least likely) but very few decks will actually want more than one form of it.
You have to remember that in Limited, by the time you can cast 4BR, your opponent has maybe 1 or 2 cards in hand. With 1 card in hand, it's much worse than Lava Axe. For 1 extra mana, you deal less damage and give them two cards. So they need at least 2 cards in hand before it even has potential to be better than Lava Axe. There is literally no potential for it to be "huge." If your opponent has that many cards in hand late game, you've already won.
My bet is that you value this like a Black draw spell, with the rare upside of dealing damage. In that regard, it's roughly as good as Divination which is never a high pick.
The spoiled cards so far align with this: not undercosted, nothing too cheap, and the only fast low-cost card so far, the flash 2/2, is gold in a slow guild.
Is the Ruric thar / Melek pattern of 6 CMC champion a pattern? Maybe all champions will have a CMC of 6? It would be unfair to other guilds if a champion had a head-start after all...
My understanding is that you actually deal the same amount of damage as Lava Axe if they started with 1 card, since the halves are processed left-to-right: first they draw 2 and lose 2, then they take 3, for a total of 5.
But if Lava Axe said, "Deal 5 damage to target player. That player draws two cards." it would be pretty bad. I can see Toil and Trouble as a situational finisher if you need to get those last bits in (kind of like the one mode of Boros Charm), but I foresee casting the Toil side 80% of the time, targetting myself. I mean, people have been killed by Sign in Blood, so it's not like you'd NEVER aim this at someone's head, and in BorDos it's probably a good bet you'll manage to get someone low enough fast enough that a full Toil and Trouble can hit for a non-negligeable amount of life.
You're right, my mistake. It's still worse than Lava Axe though due to casting cost (6cc, gold) and giving them two cards. You really don't want to use it unless it kills them on the spot. The same is usually true of Axe but at least it doesn't have a downside.
I completely agree. But the high versatility (3 options, like a charm) are what make the fuse split cards both interesting and, I think, deceptively powerful. This particular card is, to be sure, not that exciting, and the fuse does unfortunately result in an effect that is much better at a lower cost.
Sin Collector seems pretty reasonable, but I wish they'd made him a 1/4 instead of a 2/1. The fact that he either forces them to use their removal spell while he's on the stack, or you catch them with their mana tapped, seems like a good trade for a piddling 2/1.
Vorel seems....well, he's kind of like a really solid cog rather than a driving engine all by himself, as he does nothing without some counters to play with. He does stupid things with a Fathom Mage, I guess, but I see him less as a limited bomb than as a constructed Build-Around-Me card.
Master of Cruelties makes me laugh. He's not going to do it on his own (they can risk a combat trick to just double or triple block him), but pack enough power boosters in your deck and he's kind of a beating. He's also a bad beats story waiting to happen:
"I had my opponent at ONE. I just needed to draw a creature, ANY CREATURE, and what do I topdeck? Master of F-ING Cruelties."
Yea well...how much do you want for 3 mana? You're already getting 2 power and most of a Castigate in one card. At 1/4 you'd be getting the Castigate practically for free. It seems like a solid card just for the card advantage potential at such a low casting cost.
I'd say it's fairly variable in quality though, at least in limited. You can't assume that your opponent will have an instant or sorcery, though it is pretty sick if you do hit one.