I know people have asked again and again if there is a possible way to splash white in this deck, and it's something I've been wanting to try. The deck essentially combines a lot of the good things that Jund has with some of the good things Junk has.
So here's a rough decklist (emphasis on the "rough"):
So again... rough list. I haven't figured out what the optimal removal package/creature lifegain package is. Maybe I don't need 4 Huntmaster and I could just replace that with more removal to make it be more like Jund.
Reasons why we aren't just playing Junk Reanimator:
- Wolf Run and Rakdos Return both somewhat effectively replace what Craterhoof Behemoth does to control decks. Slaughter Games in the side hits Sphinx's Revelation whereas if we were Junk we would have to go over the top of them with Angel loops.
Reasons why we aren't just playing Jund Midrange:
1. You play Unburial Rites for value, not to reanimate big stuff on turn 4 or 5, but because Junk Reanimator is on people's minds, people might see the Unburial Rites and Angel of Serenity and think that this is a variant of that deck and try to sideboard stuff like Rest in Peace.
2. You get access to Rest in Peace sideboard which is a far better sideboard option against Junk (and might be a surprise).
3. Obzedat is good.
4. Resto + Thragtusk is still awesome.
So... I dunno. Am I crazy for wanting to try this out?
I think it's good to have some discussion going on about +white version, but there's some issues. Centaur Healer is BAD. Olivia is really good. Obzedat is super super hard on the mana. The curve is way too high if you're only running 2 manadorks. And I don't see any point in playing Unburial Rites without Grisly Salvage / Mulch. It just means your deck is a weaker version of everything.
yeah... Maybe. Obzedat and centaur healer are bad ideas. I don't know if another 3 drop would be better or if I should go with 2 drops or 4 drops or what.
I like rites in there as a 2 of against control. Maybe that's a sideboard card though.
What cards would you recommend?
Also, Olivia gets cut because we aren't heavy on red.... but perhaps we should be.
I mean, I would say Loxodon Smiter is definitely better than Centaur Healer, not sure if we want that, though.
For a white splash I would say Resto Angel and Lingering Souls is enough, but I don't really think its needed, either. Oblivion Ring might also be cool, I guess.
This is what I ran last night. Don't know if you want to call Dark Naya or Light Jund. I had two Caverns in but they were causing me more issues then they helped. I went 4-2. Most of the time I lost due it was due to mana issues so I know i need to rework the mana base. I have too many black sources and not enough green as it is now and I'll be cutting the Caverns for Stomping Grounds. Turn 2/3 Reconer or Smiter happens pretty consistently. My biggest issue was token swarms so I was thinking of adding Electrickery to the board. Aurelia's Fury always seemed Meh. It did help one match by tapping down an opponents creatures to allow me through but most of the time I drew one I just as soon have drawn an Olivia. I wasn't a beliver in Assemble but in the right match up it is a house. Any thoughts on the mana base would be appreciated. This is what I was running.
3 Isolated Chapel
3 Temple Garden
3 Overgrown Tomb
2 Stomping Ground
2 Cavern of Souls
2 Blood Crypt
2 Rootbound Crag
2 Clifftop Retreat
2 Godless Shrine
2 Kessig Wolf Run
This is what I ran last night. Don't know if you want to call Dark Naya or Light Jund. I had two Caverns in but they were causing me more issues then they helped. I went 4-2. Most of the time I lost due it was due to mana issues so I know i need to rework the mana base. I have too many black sources and not enough green as it is now and I'll be cutting the Caverns for Stomping Grounds. Turn 2/3 Reconer or Smiter happens pretty consistently. My biggest issue was token swarms so I was thinking of adding Electrickery to the board. Aurelia's Fury always seemed Meh. It did help one match by tapping down an opponents creatures to allow me through but most of the time I drew one I just as soon have drawn an Olivia. I wasn't a beliver in Assemble but in the right match up it is a house. Any thoughts on the mana base would be appreciated. This is what I was running.
3 Isolated Chapel
3 Temple Garden
3 Overgrown Tomb
2 Stomping Ground
2 Cavern of Souls
2 Blood Crypt
2 Rootbound Crag
2 Clifftop Retreat
2 Godless Shrine
2 Kessig Wolf Run
Well, the first thing I notice is you probably should run at least 3 of each of the G/x duals... if not 4... because of Arbor Elf, because you actually need a Forest to untap... but also because of being able to drop mana dorks turn 1. Dropping that turn 1 into a Reckoner or Smiter is a big deal IMO.
You could probably take out 2 Rootbound Crag for 2 Stomping Ground, but then perhaps go the other way and take out all but 1 Godless Shrine, Blood Crypt and go with Dragonskull Summit so that you have about the same number of duals/checks.
I notice you have the Reanimator package in the deck. What do you tend to bring it out against?
Also... you mentioned the Caverns not working for you. Think those are worth taking out for more shocks/checks or could they stay in because they in theory tap for any color mana for your early game creatures?
Well, the first thing I notice is you probably should run at least 3 of each of the G/x duals... if not 4... because of Arbor Elf, because you actually need a Forest to untap... but also because of being able to drop mana dorks turn 1. Dropping that turn 1 into a Reckoner or Smiter is a big deal IMO.
You could probably take out 2 Rootbound Crag for 2 Stomping Ground, but then perhaps go the other way and take out all but 1 Godless Shrine, Blood Crypt and go with Dragonskull Summit so that you have about the same number of duals/checks.
I notice you have the Reanimator package in the deck. What do you tend to bring it out against?
Also... you mentioned the Caverns not working for you. Think those are worth taking out for more shocks/checks or could they stay in because they in theory tap for any color mana for your early game creatures?
I am planning on swapping the the Caverns out for a x/G land. More often the not I wished it was a stomping ground then a cavern. The unburials come in vs any kind of a control deck. They're there for the fun probably more then anything.It's great to bring in game two for the reconers and see the awkward look on their face when they mill an unburial. I usually don't have too much trouble with agro, my meta is like 60% aggro %20 mid %10 controlish. There are normally 30-50 players and I can normally make top 8/16 but have a hard time against some of the better plays who play control once they cut. So you need to be able to beat Naya Blitz etc. cause you will see a lot of them but then normally, once they cut to top x, the better players you run into are playing control so that why most of the sideboard is anti-control but main board is for agro.
i dunno, what would be the point of splashing white? because it is not an easy task to splash fourth color, i think you should think about the goal. for example, i want to play supreme verdict bacause of meta issues, that is why i pondered between RUW, bant and esper (mana is good enough that i did not want the pure azorius, with few removal), and ended up choosing esper because of ultimate price on angel of serenity.
if you choose to play white, it should be for some good cause, actually making the deck better at something. if you take off constancy of the deck just to put some random good white stuff i don't think that would work. 3 colors is being hard enough for me...
i dunno, what would be the point of splashing white? because it is not an easy task to splash fourth color, i think you should think about the goal. for example, i want to play supreme verdict bacause of meta issues, that is why i pondered between RUW, bant and esper (mana is good enough that i did not want the pure azorius, with few removal), and ended up choosing esper because of ultimate price on angel of serenity.
if you choose to play white, it should be for some good cause, actually making the deck better at something. if you take off constancy of the deck just to put some random good white stuff i don't think that would work. 3 colors is being hard enough for me...
The whole point of me bringing this up is pretty much I wanted to play Rest in Peace in the sideboard... stuff like Loxodon Smiter, Resto Angel and the mana dorks... but then also Kessig Wolf Run, Thundermaw Hellkite, Huntmaster, maybe Rakdos Return and potentially Slaughter Games in the board.
I just kind of realized that this deck (the one Spaghetti posted) was more Naya with a black splash for Olivia main and the Rites sideboard package (although you could arguably play Slaughter Games here). It's not a bad deck certainly after testing with a friend on Cockatrice just now. The mana issues are the weak point in the deck.
Honestly... maybe I should just play Naya and cut out the middle man.
i dunno, what would be the point of splashing white? because it is not an easy task to splash fourth color, i think you should think about the goal. for example, i want to play supreme verdict bacause of meta issues, that is why i pondered between RUW, bant and esper (mana is good enough that i did not want the pure azorius, with few removal), and ended up choosing esper because of ultimate price on angel of serenity.
if you choose to play white, it should be for some good cause, actually making the deck better at something. if you take off constancy of the deck just to put some random good white stuff i don't think that would work. 3 colors is being hard enough for me...
White gives you access to Smiter, Resto A, S Charm, AtL. All good cards. Having access to both reconer and smiter for a turn 2 drop gives most aggro decks fits. Honestly I don't see why you would have trouble running 3 colors. Generally the only I trouble I had was getting a green source turn one for a dork or farseek. With pilgrim, farseek and arbor elf as long as I landed one I normally didn't too much trouble. Overgrown tomb & Kessig WR are the only lands that don't product reconer colors, so as long as you hit three lands you have an 80% + chance of casting it. I could see if you aren't running green it might be harder but farseek + shock can get you any color you want. The biggest issues I had was turn one G or turn 5 having 3 G for Garruk. I think tweeking the mana can fix that. Just my 2 cents.
I have been alternately playing Naya and Jund for the last few months, and more recently I have been experimenting with a black splash in Naya or a white splash in Jund. My current favorite is a Light Jund:
Using a base from Reid Duke's recent list (which I liked a lot and played to a 6-3 record at a TCG 5K last weekend), I basically took out the plainswalkers and replaced them with Restoration Angel and Assemble the Legion and then replaced a Grafdigger's Cage with a Rest in Peace in the SB.
I do miss Liliana of the Veil, but the utility from the Angel has so far more than made up for it (in a very different way, of course). I also was looking for a way to add Assemble in a midrange deck; so far it has been intriguing as a mid to late game threat machine that hits other midrange and control decks in a completely different way than the usual Jund threats.
I'm still testing, but this has run nicely so far. Any comments would be appreciated.
I have been alternately playing Naya and Jund for the last few months, and more recently I have been experimenting with a black splash in Naya or a white splash in Jund. My current favorite is a Light Jund:
Using a base from Reid Duke's recent list (which I liked a lot and played to a 6-3 record at a TCG 5K last weekend), I basically took out the plainswalkers and replaced them with Restoration Angel and Assemble the Legion and then replaced a Grafdigger's Cage with a Rest in Peace in the SB.
I do miss Liliana of the Veil, but the utility from the Angel has so far more than made up for it (in a very different way, of course). I also was looking for a way to add Assemble in a midrange deck; so far it has been intriguing as a mid to late game threat machine that hits other midrange and control decks in a completely different way than the usual Jund threats.
I'm still testing, but this has run nicely so far. Any comments would be appreciated.
What did his list look like?
Seems like the double ground seal might not be worth it when we now have access to both Slaughter Games AND Rest in Peace... that's almost half the reason to splash white IMO.
Seems like the double ground seal might not be worth it when we now have access to both Slaughter Games AND Rest in Peace... that's almost half the reason to splash white IMO.
This was the recent Reid Duke Jund version that I had found and used.
The Ground Seal could certainly come out, and if I were to remove gy hate from the maindeck, then I would probably just change them to Rest in Peace; you are correct that they would be the better option. However, since Seal cantrips, it's not that much of a stretch to have some Junk Reanimator insurance main. If Junk is actually seeing less play -- I haven't seen it, in the TCG 5K last weekend, I faced Junk 3 times in 9 rounds, going 2-1 -- then certainly the maindeck hate could be moved to the SB.
I play a mean list regularly at my FNM that essentially pulls removal to run Loxodon Smiter, Restoration Angel, and Falkenrath Aristocrat. It gives the deck a very aggressive potential draw, resiliency against control, and the best creatures in the format. It also run Pilgrim as its dork to help guarantee white mana and provide Falkenrath fodder.
It's unfortunatel lacking in removal but your draws are all very powerful to make up for it (the only removal it really runs is bonfire).
Not sure if anyone else has seen that variant before.
Seems more like 4C than "White Jund" for what its worth.
I would drop a couple of spells (Gaze of Granite, Warleader's Helix, Pillar, Dreadbore) for 4 Resto Angels.
Jund doesn't need Resto in such a polarised format. If midrange was 20%+ of the format, I can see it being useful. If splashing white pushed the archetype over the top, we would've seen it by now. The only card I'd probably splash for is LS against all the Falkenraths.
I feel like if you are splashing white it is for a few things:
Lingering souls - good if aristocrats and other control, bad if reanimator
Assemble the legion - breaks the mirror
Terminus maybe - for aggro
Renounce the guilds - maybe
I wouldn't think taking out Sire is a good thing. The first thing to go would be ground seals and if reanimator falls off this could be the next evolution. Otherwise I'm not sure there is room.
I feel like if you are splashing white it is for a few things:
Lingering souls - good if aristocrats and other control, bad if reanimator
Assemble the legion - breaks the mirror
Terminus maybe - for aggro
Renounce the guilds - maybe
I wouldn't think taking out Sire is a good thing. The first thing to go would be ground seals and if reanimator falls off this could be the next evolution. Otherwise I'm not sure there is room.
Agreed on Assemble the Legion, a good way to establish inevitability even against control or other midrange decks that might usually have the longer game. Rest in Peace is a wonderful SB addition to maindeck Ground Seals.
Doubtful on Renounce the Guilds, since many of Jund's permanents are multicolored themselves. I would hate to have a Renounce stuck in hand just because I didn't want to sac Huntmaster or Olivia.
Agreed on Assemble the Legion, a good way to establish inevitability even against control or other midrange decks that might usually have the longer game. Rest in Peace is a wonderful SB addition to maindeck Ground Seals.
Doubtful on Renounce the Guilds, since many of Jund's permanents are multicolored themselves. I would hate to have a Renounce stuck in hand just because I didn't want to sac Huntmaster or Olivia.
So here's a rough decklist (emphasis on the "rough"):
2 Avacyn's Pilgrim (maybe Arbor Elf?)
4 Centaur Healer
3 Restoration Angel
4 Huntmaster of the Fells
4 Thragtusk
2 Angel of Serenity
2 Obzedat, Ghost Council
2 Ultimate Price
2 Rakdos Return
2 Unburial Rites
3 Lingering Souls
24 land, 2 Kessig Wolf Run, maybe 1 Cavern
4 Rest In Piece
3 Slaughter Games
3 DRS
So again... rough list. I haven't figured out what the optimal removal package/creature lifegain package is. Maybe I don't need 4 Huntmaster and I could just replace that with more removal to make it be more like Jund.
Reasons why we aren't just playing Junk Reanimator:
- Wolf Run and Rakdos Return both somewhat effectively replace what Craterhoof Behemoth does to control decks. Slaughter Games in the side hits Sphinx's Revelation whereas if we were Junk we would have to go over the top of them with Angel loops.
Reasons why we aren't just playing Jund Midrange:
1. You play Unburial Rites for value, not to reanimate big stuff on turn 4 or 5, but because Junk Reanimator is on people's minds, people might see the Unburial Rites and Angel of Serenity and think that this is a variant of that deck and try to sideboard stuff like Rest in Peace.
2. You get access to Rest in Peace sideboard which is a far better sideboard option against Junk (and might be a surprise).
3. Obzedat is good.
4. Resto + Thragtusk is still awesome.
So... I dunno. Am I crazy for wanting to try this out?
Youtube Channel
I like rites in there as a 2 of against control. Maybe that's a sideboard card though.
What cards would you recommend?
Also, Olivia gets cut because we aren't heavy on red.... but perhaps we should be.
For a white splash I would say Resto Angel and Lingering Souls is enough, but I don't really think its needed, either. Oblivion Ring might also be cool, I guess.
4 Avacyn's Pilgrim
2 Arbor Elves
4 Farseek
3 Boros Reconer
4 Loxodon Smiter
2 Olivia Voldaren
4 Huntmaster of the Fells
4 Thragtusk
3 Restoration Angel
2 Thundermaw Hellkite
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Selesnya Charm
1 Garruk, Primal Hunter
Land
2 Kessig Wolf Run
21 Land
4 Unburial Rites
2 Angel of Serenity
2 Selesnya Charm
2 Assemble the Legion
3 Rest in Peace
2 Aurelia's Fury
This is what I ran last night. Don't know if you want to call Dark Naya or Light Jund. I had two Caverns in but they were causing me more issues then they helped. I went 4-2. Most of the time I lost due it was due to mana issues so I know i need to rework the mana base. I have too many black sources and not enough green as it is now and I'll be cutting the Caverns for Stomping Grounds. Turn 2/3 Reconer or Smiter happens pretty consistently. My biggest issue was token swarms so I was thinking of adding Electrickery to the board. Aurelia's Fury always seemed Meh. It did help one match by tapping down an opponents creatures to allow me through but most of the time I drew one I just as soon have drawn an Olivia. I wasn't a beliver in Assemble but in the right match up it is a house. Any thoughts on the mana base would be appreciated. This is what I was running.
3 Isolated Chapel
3 Temple Garden
3 Overgrown Tomb
2 Stomping Ground
2 Cavern of Souls
2 Blood Crypt
2 Rootbound Crag
2 Clifftop Retreat
2 Godless Shrine
2 Kessig Wolf Run
Well, the first thing I notice is you probably should run at least 3 of each of the G/x duals... if not 4... because of Arbor Elf, because you actually need a Forest to untap... but also because of being able to drop mana dorks turn 1. Dropping that turn 1 into a Reckoner or Smiter is a big deal IMO.
You could probably take out 2 Rootbound Crag for 2 Stomping Ground, but then perhaps go the other way and take out all but 1 Godless Shrine, Blood Crypt and go with Dragonskull Summit so that you have about the same number of duals/checks.
I notice you have the Reanimator package in the deck. What do you tend to bring it out against?
Also... you mentioned the Caverns not working for you. Think those are worth taking out for more shocks/checks or could they stay in because they in theory tap for any color mana for your early game creatures?
I am planning on swapping the the Caverns out for a x/G land. More often the not I wished it was a stomping ground then a cavern. The unburials come in vs any kind of a control deck. They're there for the fun probably more then anything.It's great to bring in game two for the reconers and see the awkward look on their face when they mill an unburial. I usually don't have too much trouble with agro, my meta is like 60% aggro %20 mid %10 controlish. There are normally 30-50 players and I can normally make top 8/16 but have a hard time against some of the better plays who play control once they cut. So you need to be able to beat Naya Blitz etc. cause you will see a lot of them but then normally, once they cut to top x, the better players you run into are playing control so that why most of the sideboard is anti-control but main board is for agro.
if you choose to play white, it should be for some good cause, actually making the deck better at something. if you take off constancy of the deck just to put some random good white stuff i don't think that would work. 3 colors is being hard enough for me...
The whole point of me bringing this up is pretty much I wanted to play Rest in Peace in the sideboard... stuff like Loxodon Smiter, Resto Angel and the mana dorks... but then also Kessig Wolf Run, Thundermaw Hellkite, Huntmaster, maybe Rakdos Return and potentially Slaughter Games in the board.
I just kind of realized that this deck (the one Spaghetti posted) was more Naya with a black splash for Olivia main and the Rites sideboard package (although you could arguably play Slaughter Games here). It's not a bad deck certainly after testing with a friend on Cockatrice just now. The mana issues are the weak point in the deck.
Honestly... maybe I should just play Naya and cut out the middle man.
White gives you access to Smiter, Resto A, S Charm, AtL. All good cards. Having access to both reconer and smiter for a turn 2 drop gives most aggro decks fits. Honestly I don't see why you would have trouble running 3 colors. Generally the only I trouble I had was getting a green source turn one for a dork or farseek. With pilgrim, farseek and arbor elf as long as I landed one I normally didn't too much trouble. Overgrown tomb & Kessig WR are the only lands that don't product reconer colors, so as long as you hit three lands you have an 80% + chance of casting it. I could see if you aren't running green it might be harder but farseek + shock can get you any color you want. The biggest issues I had was turn one G or turn 5 having 3 G for Garruk. I think tweeking the mana can fix that. Just my 2 cents.
3 Blood Crypt
3 Dragonskull Summit
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Woodland Cemetery
3 Stomping Ground
2 Rootbound Crag
2 Temple Garden
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Godless Shrine
2 Kessig Wolf Run
Creatures - 15
4 Huntmaster of the Fells
4 Thragtusk
3 Olivia Voldaren
4 Restoration Angel
4 Farseek
2 Ground Seal
2 Tragic Slip
1 Mizzium Mortars
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Bonfire of the Damned
1 Murder
1 Dreadbore
1 Victim of Night
2 Rakdos's Return
2 Assemble the Legion
1 Rakdos's Return
2 Bonfire of the Damned
2 Tragic Slip
2 Pillar of Flame
2 Duress
2 Underworld Connections
2 Slaughter Games
1 Vraska the Unseen
1 Rest in Peace
I do miss Liliana of the Veil, but the utility from the Angel has so far more than made up for it (in a very different way, of course). I also was looking for a way to add Assemble in a midrange deck; so far it has been intriguing as a mid to late game threat machine that hits other midrange and control decks in a completely different way than the usual Jund threats.
I'm still testing, but this has run nicely so far. Any comments would be appreciated.
You may be right, maybe 1 in the main and 1 in the SB to bring in for slower matchups. It really is a beast in the mirror or against control.
What did his list look like?
Seems like the double ground seal might not be worth it when we now have access to both Slaughter Games AND Rest in Peace... that's almost half the reason to splash white IMO.
4 [RTR] Blood Crypt
4 [RTR] Overgrown Tomb
4 [ISD] Woodland Cemetery
2 [M13] Rootbound Crag
2 [ISD] Kessig Wolf Run
2 [RTR] Forest
3 [M13] Dragonskull Summit
4 [GTC] Stomping Ground
// Creatures
4 [DKA] Huntmaster of the Fells
4 [M13] Thragtusk
3 [ISD] Olivia Voldaren
2 [M13] Arbor Elf
4 [M13] Farseek
1 [RTR] Mizzium Mortars
2 [RTR] Rakdos's Return
1 [RTR] Abrupt Decay
2 [AVR] Bonfire of the Damned
2 [M13] Garruk, Primal Hunter
3 [ISD] Liliana of the Veil
1 [M13] Murder
1 [RTR] Dreadbore
2 [DKA] Tragic Slip
2 [M13] Ground Seal
1 [ISD] Victim of Night
1 [RTR] Rakdos's Return
2 [AVR] Bonfire of the Damned
1 [ISD] Liliana of the Veil
1 [DKA] Tragic Slip
2 [AVR] Pillar of Flame
2 [M13] Duress
2 [RTR] Underworld Connections
2 [RTR] Slaughter Games
1 [RTR] Vraska the Unseen
1 [DKA] Grafdigger's Cage
This was the recent Reid Duke Jund version that I had found and used.
The Ground Seal could certainly come out, and if I were to remove gy hate from the maindeck, then I would probably just change them to Rest in Peace; you are correct that they would be the better option. However, since Seal cantrips, it's not that much of a stretch to have some Junk Reanimator insurance main. If Junk is actually seeing less play -- I haven't seen it, in the TCG 5K last weekend, I faced Junk 3 times in 9 rounds, going 2-1 -- then certainly the maindeck hate could be moved to the SB.
It's unfortunatel lacking in removal but your draws are all very powerful to make up for it (the only removal it really runs is bonfire).
Not sure if anyone else has seen that variant before.
I would drop a couple of spells (Gaze of Granite, Warleader's Helix, Pillar, Dreadbore) for 4 Resto Angels.
Lingering souls - good if aristocrats and other control, bad if reanimator
Assemble the legion - breaks the mirror
Terminus maybe - for aggro
Renounce the guilds - maybe
I wouldn't think taking out Sire is a good thing. The first thing to go would be ground seals and if reanimator falls off this could be the next evolution. Otherwise I'm not sure there is room.
Agreed on Assemble the Legion, a good way to establish inevitability even against control or other midrange decks that might usually have the longer game. Rest in Peace is a wonderful SB addition to maindeck Ground Seals.
Possibly on Lingering Souls and Terminus -- I haven't run them, but I could see their use.
Doubtful on Renounce the Guilds, since many of Jund's permanents are multicolored themselves. I would hate to have a Renounce stuck in hand just because I didn't want to sac Huntmaster or Olivia.
Also consider Restoration Angel, and Blood Baron of Vizkopa.
Oh yes also RIP derp. Assemble, souls, RIP is about all I would splash for, and maybe maybe terminus.
Unfortunately only souls would go in the main deck I think the others are best SB.
Resto angel is another maybe, but prob have to go to 2 Olivias to fit her. And blood baron I'm not too fond of but that's just me.
-
View User Profile
-
View Posts
-
Send Message
Curse Premium